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OPINION: Level Scaling vs Level Gating | MMORPG.com

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 12,599
edited October 2022 in News & Features Discussion

imageOPINION: Level Scaling vs Level Gating | MMORPG.com

Should a game scale to the player’s level, or should areas of the world be gated off until a player reaches a certain level? This is another one of design choices perhaps best suited for game developers, but what the hell? I’ll throw my hat in the ring and provide my two cents.

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Comments

  • HyperChopper2029HyperChopper2029 Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    . I know this is an old thread; that being said, I love how City of Heroes had sidekicks, and wish they could have done something like that for playing with friends, instead of the whole world scale thing. I hate grinding and never feeling like it really, "really" makes a difference. I do miss feeling like earning new gear and grinding made you feel like you were getting stronger. Out leveling a zone, and going back to see and feel like you are op, because you took the time to grow. I love the lore, but that's all I play it for now. Scaling just makes the whole game feel stale to me after a while.

    . I do have a learning disability; I'll never have the best hand eye coordination at any game, however it used to feel nice feeling rewarded for dedication and persistence.

    :(
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    I'm very much on the side of level scaling. The ability to go back and one shot lower level mobs isn't worth losing an entire world of good content. Vertical progression makes MMOs linear, and level scaling opens them back up.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    I also prefer level scaling as done in ESO but their system needs some tweaking IMO.

    The overall difficulty in ESO for quest and overland content is just too easy and this makes it seem as if level scaling is at fault when it's actually not. The under-tuning of content is the problem, not the level scaling.

    Additionally level scaled games need more mob difficulty variety in any given area in order to still provide a feeling of danger and accomplishment. ESO does this to some extent with very easy mobs like skeevers and wolves for example and much tougher ones like giants and mammoth, but there just aren't enough of the more difficult types sprinkled in. This is also undermined by the general under-tuning where the range that should go from easy to difficult is actually more like extremely easy to easy.

    If you want to see an example of how it could work well in a level scaled system just head over to the Craglorn zone. The range of difficulty in that zone is more like it should be everywhere in the game. Mobs are all the same level but the range of difficulty and quantity of tougher content areas just provides a better challenge.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427


    . I know this is an old thread; that being said, I love how City of Heroes had sidekicks, and wish they could have done something like that for playing with friends, instead of the whole world scale thing. I hate grinding and never feeling like it really, "really" makes a difference. I do miss feeling like earning new gear and grinding made you feel like you were getting stronger. Out leveling a zone, and going back to see and feel like you are op, because you took the time to grow. I love the lore, but that's all I play it for now. Scaling just makes the whole game feel stale to me after a while.



    . I do have a learning disability; I'll never have the best hand eye coordination at any game, however it used to feel nice feeling rewarded for dedication and persistence.



    :(



    Welcome to the forums! :)
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    edited October 2022
    I am in two minds about scaling, which I know is not allowed we must be pro or anti everything!

    My main reason for supporting scaling was that it does allow ease of group play, as the avatars all scale to the zone, but it is questionable if this is producing an increase in group play. That plus the fact you could just use a "buddy" system like you got in CoH means I have to question it. They could have a system that allows grouping without scaling so what use is the scaling? If the zones were all tough (ish) it would make sense, but they mostly now are easy mode with the exceptions Iselin mentions.

    The other main advantage I see of scaling is the difficulty level can be uniform, difficult enough but not too difficult. But nearly every MMO is now easymode to top level, if you have that with scaling what's the point?
    Slapshot1188harken33
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 4,045
    Aeander said:
    I'm very much on the side of level scaling. The ability to go back and one shot lower level mobs isn't worth losing an entire world of good content. Vertical progression makes MMOs linear, and level scaling opens them back up.

    Scaling MMOs dont have progression.

    If a level 1 enemy is the same to you as a max level enemy then did you really progress at all? What did you gain in your MMO journey?

    I want my max level character to be able to go back to low level zones and one shot enemies. It shows that my character has grown and become stronger over time.

    Going back to the beginning zones and the enemies still being at my level makes me question what Im doing and why Im doing it. Makes it seem like continuing to the play the pointless. Thats when I quit and go to another game.
    ScotSlapshot1188strawhat0981harken33deniter
  • DattelisDattelis Member EpicPosts: 1,675
    edited October 2022
    I've never been a big fan of scaling. I know some people say it helps with immersion but the opposite can be true as well, especially in any story driven game. I never liked the idea that I can kill a boss that threatened the entire world and then go out into the world and see wolves/bandits/etc still the same level as me. Were they grinding while I was doing that? Having an elite bandit killing the person who saved the world makes sense? I dont know about that, it always just made more sense to me that I should just be able to stomp certain things in certain areas at least after I've done epic things in the game. I definitely felt this way going from Legion to BfA. Going from killing lored characters like Kil'Jadean and preventing Sargares from killing Azeroth to dying to a wolf or 2 in BfA early zones.....sure they probably were drinking azerite water but still....
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    edited October 2022
    Dattelis said:
    I've never been a big fan of scaling. I know some people say it helps with immersion but the opposite can be true as well, especially in any story driven game. I never liked the idea that I can kill a boss that threatened the entire world and then go out into the world and see wolves/bandits/etc still the same level as me. Were they grinding while I was doing that? Having an elite bandit killing the person who saved the world makes sense? I dont know about that, it always just made more sense to me that I should just be able to stomp certain things in certain areas at least after I've done epic things in the game. I definitely felt this way going from Legion to BfA. Going from killing lored characters like Kil'Jadean and preventing Sargares from killing Azeroth to dying to a wolf or 2 in BfA early zones.....sure they probably were drinking azerite water but still....
    Levels in games aren't meant to necessarily correlate to DBZ-style power levels, but rather to the characters' "skill." What you are earning is Experience, after all, not Power. It holds that even as you get better at fighting, past enemies would still pose some threat.

    Legolas isn't suddenly immune to orc blades just because he has taken down a fell beast and an elephant. He has plot armor, not literal mithril skin. If he stopped being a badass for 2 seconds, he could end up as dead as anyone else.

    Xiaoki said:
    Aeander said:
    I'm very much on the side of level scaling. The ability to go back and one shot lower level mobs isn't worth losing an entire world of good content. Vertical progression makes MMOs linear, and level scaling opens them back up.

    Scaling MMOs dont have progression.
    I must have imagined all those skills and passive abilities I learned, and gear modifiers I picked up.

    Sorry, but this is patently false. They do have progression, even if it isn't strictly linear/numerical. The way I can play at 80 hours is not the same as at the start. Numbers are just the most shallow, boring method of progression.
    Post edited by Aeander on
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    I'm in the middle on this. 
    I love exploration and want a more open world. But it doesn't have to be completely open. 

    I want a feeling of progression by clearly seeing advancement in my abilities vs. MOBs over the medium haul. 
    But I don't need the sort of power gains in most MMORPGs where old content becomes useless except for whack-a-mole easy mode, and I can't play with other players or go to places outside of a very limited sphere of power. 

    Once upon a time....

  • DattelisDattelis Member EpicPosts: 1,675
    edited October 2022
    Aeander said:
    Levels in games aren't meant to necessarily correlate to DBZ-style power levels, but rather to the characters' "skill." What you are earning is Experience, after all, not Power. It holds that even as you get better at fighting, past enemies would still pose some threat.

    Legolas isn't suddenly immune to orc blades just because he has taken down a fell beast and an elephant. He has plot armor, not literal mithril skin. If he stopped being a badass for 2 seconds, he could end up as dead as anyone else.


    This would make sense if your armor wasn't scaling with your said experience. I'd like to think if I had armor made from some kind of mythril beast that pulsated thunder, it should defend me while I'm not being a 'badass' as it were, but if its shocking them like a dog collar while I die to some low rank scout that decided to grind on wolves while I was saving the planet and got lucky, it kind of makes it moot. Almost makes as much sense as Goku dying to a gun shot that one time in DBS.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    Not a fan of level scaling,....To me it makes it feel like I havent progressed......
    Dattelisharken33deniter
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    edited October 2022
    The problem with level scaling is that it makes games trivial.  Without level scaling, if some area is too hard, you can go level up somewhere else, then come back and try again.  With level scaling, that won't help you, and it will be too hard forever.

    The problem is that if something is too hard forever and unbeatable, then players get frustrated and quit.  It's not enough to make sure that nothing is too hard for an average player.  You have to make sure that nothing is too hard for a completely incompetent player.  And that means that everything has to be completely trivial for normal players.

    The upshot is that games don't scale the world to your level.  They scale it to something far below your level.  That makes a game dreadfully boring to play.  I don't know if it would be interesting or not if a game was designed to actually scale things to be appropriate at your level, but games with level scaling go far out of their way to avoid doing that.

    If what you want from a game world is a chance to go explore, that's fine, but why should that world have combat at all?
    MendelScotharken33
  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 3,053
    I'm not a big fan of level scaling. I want the option, the choice, to decide how hard stuff is. It's a thrill to go into an area where everything is a lot higher than you are, and then still survive and win.

    As opposed to: "it's a wolf, it's the same as every other wolf in the entire freaking game. Forever."

    The downside is that once you've out-leveled an area, there's no reason to go back. In Vanguard, they put high level dungeons in lower areas, so even if you did that area long ago, there's still a reason to go back. And if you're doing it for the first time, you see that dungeon and think "wow, I can't wait until I can do something like that!"

    In Ryzom they mixed it up quite a bit. Sure, you can kill the herbivores in an area pretty easily, but the carnivores that also hunt them can probably kill you too. And be careful, because in the winter the kinchers migrate close to here, and they definitely can kill you.

    But I don't want level gating. I want the choice to try something really hard, not wait until the game lets me.



    Mendelharken33

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,493
    edited October 2022
    I'm ambivalent.

    Things in the real world don't scale to you.  You're not going to go hunt a Brown Bear in the wild on the idea that "it's okay, it's strength and agility will be scaled by Mother Nature so it's a fair fight!" Anyone who hunts bears started by hunting something far less ferocious and far smaller, building skills that are then used to hunt larger and more dangerous game.

    It feels more immersive to me to see a power progression in my character compared to the game world.  That doesn't mean no scaling, but I've yet to see an MMORPG do it well, unless you're defining well completely with: "I can go to any leveling zone I want and things will be pretty much the same level of challenge."  That doesn't qualify as good scaling to me.  The Witcher 3's scaling was much better: you got tougher and deadlier, but that never meant you were going to walk through enemies without a sweat.  It scaled enemies up *only*, while leaving a good range of difficulty that still enabled me to feel like I was becoming more powerful.

  • TheDalaiBombaTheDalaiBomba Member EpicPosts: 1,493
    edited October 2022
    olepi said:
    I'm not a big fan of level scaling. I want the option, the choice, to decide how hard stuff is. It's a thrill to go into an area where everything is a lot higher than you are, and then still survive and win.

    As opposed to: "it's a wolf, it's the same as every other wolf in the entire freaking game. Forever."

    The downside is that once you've out-leveled an area, there's no reason to go back. In Vanguard, they put high level dungeons in lower areas, so even if you did that area long ago, there's still a reason to go back. And if you're doing it for the first time, you see that dungeon and think "wow, I can't wait until I can do something like that!"

    In Ryzom they mixed it up quite a bit. Sure, you can kill the herbivores in an area pretty easily, but the carnivores that also hunt them can probably kill you too. And be careful, because in the winter the kinchers migrate close to here, and they definitely can kill you.

    But I don't want level gating. I want the choice to try something really hard, not wait until the game lets me.



    You hit on the real issue underlying why this is even a discussion.


    And that is: zones have become incredibly dull.  They're incredibly shallow: X level range levels here, no one else need apply.

    That's lazy design.  Create zones with multiple ranges of content.  Just: do it intelligently.  Don't path your endgame world boss into a starter area.  Make it clear via scenery and other organic clues that a player is entering a far more dangerous part of said zone.  Don't sequester everyone off into little batches of 1-12, 13-20, 21-28, etc..

    It should be a primary design goal to have max level players mingling with new players, even if it's just in terms of visiting the same Inns because the zone serves both high and low level content.  Stop acting like endgame is a separate game, and weave it into every prior part of the game, instead.

    Quite frankly, one of the best things you can do to inspire new players is give them a seat to watch an exciting endgame event happen as soon as they set foot in your game world.  They don't have to be an active participant: they probably shouldn't, because it would be impossible to balance.  But put it in front of them so they know what they're working towards.  You can also create lower level events that directly mirror your endgame events, such as world bosses and such.  DAoC included mini-Frontiers as lower level battlegrounds to introduce their endgame PvP system to players, and it was a stroke of genius because you got a taste of what was in store at 50.  All of this was done without deflating the entire world by flattening the power curve completely for 90% of your game's content.
    Mendelolepikitarad
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    Quizzical said:
    The problem with level scaling is that it makes games trivial.  Without level scaling, if some area is too hard, you can go level up somewhere else, then come back and try again.  With level scaling, that won't help you, and it will be too hard forever.

    The problem is that if something is too hard forever and unbeatable, then players get frustrated and quit.  It's not enough to make sure that nothing is too hard for an average player.  You have to make sure that nothing is too hard for a completely incompetent player.  And that means that everything has to be completely trivial for normal players.

    The upshot is that games don't scale the world to your level.  They scale it to something far below your level.  That makes a game dreadfully boring to play.  I don't know if it would be interesting or not if a game was designed to actually scale things to be appropriate at your level, but games with level scaling go far out of their way to avoid doing that.

    If what you want from a game world is a chance to go explore, that's fine, but why should that world have combat at all?
    Call me a cynic but if you make questing totally boring maybe players will think better of the change to end game, from dungeons and PvP to resource gathering. Suddenly gathering resources is not that bad. :) 
  • DaftDaft Member UncommonPosts: 172
    Aeander said:
    I'm very much on the side of level scaling. The ability to go back and one shot lower level mobs isn't worth losing an entire world of good content. Vertical progression makes MMOs linear, and level scaling opens them back up.
    EverQuest had this figured out back in the day. Basically all content was played over and over due to Alts. You see, most items didn’t have a level limit on them,  so finding  or buying new gear for an alt was one of the most fun thing to do. I would twink characters out over and over . 
  • SensaiSensai Member UncommonPosts: 222
    Scaling is antithetical to mmorpgs and rpgs in general.  And I'm still surprised how much ESO is given slack for completely ruining the overworld experience.  It is 100% due to scaling and if you tune it, you are just adding another layer of scaling on top.  It's Fisher Price however you slice it.

    image

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    I'm not a fan of level scaling, and I recognize that level gating has its issues.  I want a game world where some spots are dangerous for me and some are too easy to provide a challenge.  I want to make that decision, not have the world adjust the difficulty level.  That philosophy does fit the level gating model better.

    The issues of level gating have led to more social issues, like not being able to play with your friends, or a newbie not being able to do anything with a veteran friend.  Level gated games also face the issue of having few places where newcomers and veterans mingle, and even fewer common activities.

    Gates (of any nature) force the player base apart.  When a game supposedly incorporates 'social' aspects, the idea of gating seems to be contradictory to that goal.  A company can embrace the idea of mingling levels, or not.  Most seem to choose 'not'. 

    Even venerable old EQ1 didn't really provide a 'common area' until their 4th Expansion, Planes of Power, but they never really divorced themselves from the level gated concept.  About the closest they got were Monster Missions and the Shroud system, both underused these days.

    Level gating works quite well, for the most part, especially when there are enough characters in each level range.  This become more pronounced when a game/server/time has a low population.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • HengistHengist Member RarePosts: 1,315
    There are two issues with level gating content as I see it. The first that that as you progress, you have a single path from level one to max level, and anytime you want to play an alt, you have to do the exact same grind, over and over. That discourages players who enjoy having multiple characters.

    The second issue is that you end up with huge amounts of content and game that is relatively unused once people progress past a certain level, and you concentrate most people to certain areas.

    If the world scales to you, you can level an alt any way that you want, and there are almost always people in different areas, and the world does feel more alive, because you are seeing people, in most places.

    In the past, I'd never been a fan of the world scaling, and I preferred traditional MMO's, but when I realize the vast zones that go relatively unvisited once I hit max level, it was almost depressing. Tie that into one way to get to max level, and while there was a sense of "progression" the game itself felt limiting. Like others have mentioned, ESO (post One Tamriel was what finally changed my perception.). I admit I didn't care as much about the linear progression feeling, and that was hard to do, but when the entire world was open, it changed the game. I had 14 or 15 max level characters my last go around, and I rarely ever took the same route to max level, so I felt like I truly was able to explore plenty of the game.

    So I suppose if the only thing you have is "progression" to enjoy, then that design stinks, if you elect to play and appreciate other aspects of the game, it works. I do wonder however, if the linear progression is what causes games to spike, and bottom out. People experience all that they can, eat that content, and leave unsatisfied. It's definitely been a trend for years, or is that also a case of end-game not being fleshed out in most games at release?

    Either or, I don't see as a one solution fits all, it's nice to have choices though, so people can find exactly what they want.
  • SensaiSensai Member UncommonPosts: 222
    Hengist said:
    There are two issues with level gating content as I see it. The first that that as you progress, you have a single path from level one to max level, and anytime you want to play an alt, you have to do the exact same grind, over and over. That discourages players who enjoy having multiple characters.

    The second issue is that you end up with huge amounts of content and game that is relatively unused once people progress past a certain level, and you concentrate most people to certain areas.

    If the world scales to you, you can level an alt any way that you want, and there are almost always people in different areas, and the world does feel more alive, because you are seeing people, in most places.

    In the past, I'd never been a fan of the world scaling, and I preferred traditional MMO's, but when I realize the vast zones that go relatively unvisited once I hit max level, it was almost depressing. Tie that into one way to get to max level, and while there was a sense of "progression" the game itself felt limiting. Like others have mentioned, ESO (post One Tamriel was what finally changed my perception.). I admit I didn't care as much about the linear progression feeling, and that was hard to do, but when the entire world was open, it changed the game. I had 14 or 15 max level characters my last go around, and I rarely ever took the same route to max level, so I felt like I truly was able to explore plenty of the game.

    So I suppose if the only thing you have is "progression" to enjoy, then that design stinks, if you elect to play and appreciate other aspects of the game, it works. I do wonder however, if the linear progression is what causes games to spike, and bottom out. People experience all that they can, eat that content, and leave unsatisfied. It's definitely been a trend for years, or is that also a case of end-game not being fleshed out in most games at release?

    Either or, I don't see as a one solution fits all, it's nice to have choices though, so people can find exactly what they want.
    Your first issue is the same in both systems.   Assuming a good balance of zones for each level range, the only benefit of scaling means you can do zones in a different order with an alt, which to me isn't a perk.  As to your second point, in theory you are correct but even in a scaled system,  people will funnel to certain preferred zones, particularly when you throw in expansions, and you will end up with unused/low usage zones in a scaled system.

    image

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    I hate scaling content to the player's level.

    Every game I've played with scaling (which i admit isn't many), the scaling has ruined the experience. Its the only progression system I've seen where leveling up usually makes my character less powerful! How dumb! But, at it's core, level scaling is a band-aid to a deeper underlying problem: it might make the problem easier to deal with, but it's not a cure, it's not a real solution.



    I dislike level-gating content in MMORPGs, but im fine with it for single-player or coop games.

    Level-gating (i.e. vertical progression) has proven itself to be a dumb thing for MMOs. It segregates the community, it makes old content redundant, and makes the game harder and harder for new players the longer the game is open. Those are all terrible things for a multiplayer game that is aiming to retain you for years!





    The solution, of course, is horizontal progression. You get all the benefits and few of the downsides compared to level-scaling.
    MendelSensaiAmarantharIselin
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    edited October 2022
    @cameltosis ;
    As long as I feel advancement of my character, this is really a great solution to either level gating or scaling content/character. 

    Edit, either and both. 
    Post edited by Amaranthar on

    Once upon a time....

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    I hate scaling content to the player's level.

    Every game I've played with scaling (which i admit isn't many), the scaling has ruined the experience. Its the only progression system I've seen where leveling up usually makes my character less powerful! How dumb! But, at it's core, level scaling is a band-aid to a deeper underlying problem: it might make the problem easier to deal with, but it's not a cure, it's not a real solution.


    That is actually impossible in multiplayer games. You scale players to the content, not the other way around. It's the only possible way to make it work since players of very different power levels will be doing the same content together often.

    As to progression, ESO has that in spades. It's just more gradual and less obvious but a level 10 player has zero chance of completing the hard content like raids or even the normal version of some dungeons that fully leveled players can do.

    You'd have to experience it firsthand to see how ridiculous the idea that you get weaker as you play more is. That is utter nonsense at least in ESO.
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  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 4,045
    Iselin said:
    You'd have to experience it firsthand to see how ridiculous the idea that you get weaker as you play more is. That is utter nonsense at least in ESO.
    Getting weaker as you level is one of the worst aspects of ESO, has been a major complaint since One Tamriel launched and the prime example for people rejecting level scaling in MMOs.

    To say that it doesnt exist is utter nonsense.

    IselinAeander
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