I feel for MMORPGs moving forward if your game has an 'End Game' you designed it wrong.
Lots of upvotes, but not many examples of MMORPGS without an "endgame" so I'll share one of the few I've actually played, EVE Online, endgame begins almost at the start, because there really isn't one to speak of in the traditional sense.
Any others?
If you make your MMO with gaming systems (content/gameplay) that do not all mesh together "end game" will loom on the horizon. EVE has systems built around a consistent idea of play; you can vary what you do but you do at the start you do throughout the game. SC has realised that trying to be the best of both worlds may not work so they are creating two games, fitting a solo gamer experience into a multiplayer one is not easy. Elite did that but I am not sure how successful that was?
The survival genre tries to square the circle by doing the same, what you do at the end game is at least partially what you do at the start. I don't mind some of the survival principles, it is just their overuse that turns me off and also what we are doing. You could argue that EVE and Elite are survival games, but what you are doing there would not annoy me like collecting more tree branches or stones does. Also, it is a matter of how you dress it up as much as what you do. Make my branch and stone gathering help repair the guild keep and I am there!
Having a PvE experience which ends in realm versus realm is the best way to make a MMORPG in my eyes, but it is in danger of falling between two stools like nearly every MMO does. That is a huge transition in gameplay, which is why I favour PvE dungeons as well, so players don't feel a gulf opening up.
MMORP's are the best genre because they try to fit a variety of playstyles into one game, but that is not always going to make for a good fit. It has been the genre's Achilles heel from the start.
As in every activity (I felt this very strong with snowboarding), for me the fun ends when you stop learning. So in videogames they shuold just add content where players have to learn something new to play. Wow did it very good, to a point. For example I remember in BfA when raids started to need everybody speaking in discord to kill the gnome king in Mythic, it was so new thing, before that point only the raidleader had to speak. This is an example of NEW THING. Another new thing shuold be NEW DEVICES. how is even possible we are still playing with mouse and keyboard? We need games that use other controllers, that requires all the body moving, sensor that catch body movements and make your char move with your body, good also for fitness btw.
If one plays MMORPG for story, it would make more sense then to play singleplayer games
Different people have different tastes. City of Heroes was my favourite MMO because I enjoyed its stories, it was solo-friendly, but I could also team up with others. It was also fun seeing the creativity and character stories from other players.
CoH didn't really have endgame content for most of its years, but it offered dozens of character slots and lots of power and costume options, which made it fun to create a lot of characters, something that is more limited in other MMOs.
Where is the creative thinking about what a "good" endgame could be? Why is it purely focused on progression, specifically progression through gear? Whether you build your game around horizontal progression or vertical progression has minimal effect on what constitutes a good endgame!
More on point:
1) Why gear treadmills suck.
The short answer is that gear treadmills are pure materialism. They try to convince us that getting better gear will make us happy. That's pure bullshit, despite what all the TV adverts tells us. Materialism is shallow, owning stuff doesn't make us happy at all. We might get a short burst of happy-brain-juices, but very quickly your brain returns to it's normal level of happiness. You might take some pleasure showing off your new stuff to others, but that is basing your happiness on other people, which is also unhealthy.
So, owning stuff is, by itself, pointless.
However, using the stuff that you own can be great! It can provide you with either new experiences, or improved experiences compared to what you have now. Simply owning a Porche won't make me happy: it'll drain my money quickly! But driving a Porche, well, that will put a smile on my face. Owning a boat won't make me happy, but taking my boat out for a fishing trip will!
What does getting the next tier of gear allow me to do? Does it make my class play differently? Usually not. Does it open up new content? Maybe the next raid.
2) Internal vs External Progression
Whenever we talk about vertical vs horizontal progression, we are exclusively talking about internal character progression. It's about our character's power, attached just to him/her. More strength, more health, more crit chance etc.
What we never talk about is external progression.
This is things like wealth, property, businesses, guilds, territory control etc. Areas over which we can exert control, but which can be transferred to others. I can give away money, sell my property, hand over guild leadership to someone else.
These are important areas of the game where we could still experience progression without our characters themselves getting more powerful. And it is this sort of progression which I think has the most opportunity to replace the gear treadmill.
I love the idea of doing things like getting the guild together to build a massive castle up in the mountains. Maybe we take a few weeks to finalise the design of it, a couple of months collecting materials and building the shell, then another few months decorating the inside. None of our characters would be more powerful at the end of it, but it would be a long term goal for all of us, give us something concrete to enjoy at the end. It would give us a feeling of ownership, not to mention influence over the world we're playing in.
3) Sandbox is the best endgame
Yes, this is mostly my opinion. However, themepark content is guaranteed to be short-lived, which is why developers had to resort to shitty designs like the gear treadmill in order to convince us to replay that content. This is why themepark makes for poor quality endgame content.
Sandbox content is far better suited to endgame. It's very nature is about giving the players tools to create their own fun. It has far more replayability and is thus much, much better suited to a long term MMORPG.
Why do you think nearly every MMORPG includes PvP at endgame? It's a very simple sandbox feature that makes use of features you already created for the rest of the game (combat mechanics, physics etc). Even though the percentage of PvPers isn't that high in most MMOs, for minimal resources you can add this sandbox feature that provides a ton of replayability.
Sadly, beyond PvP most studios don't seem to have a clue how to design and implement decent sandbox features.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I think the best endgame systems that keep you coming back are the ones that offer vertical and horizontal progression with loads of options. We have to redefine what horizontal progression is, though. Horizontal progression is not necessarily focused on cosmetics. Horizontal progression can be some of the following:
1) New abilities that are of similar power to yours
2) New subclasses (see: elite specs in gw2 as an example)
3) FF14 job system (honestly can't think of other games that have this outside sandbox games)
4) Stuff like mounts that have abilities (gw2 / dragonflight / lost ark)
5) Mini game progression
6) Faction based content can be horizontal
7) Small progression systems (masteries in gw2)
8) Crafting
9) Gathering
10) PvP ranking
11) Arguably in some cases - alts (though this is also more vertical progression)
12) New weapons
13) Sets (see eso)
Some of these are essentially "diagonal" progression, but you get the idea.
I think that cosmetic progression alone is on a time limit personally -- as once you get the fancy look you want, you may start to lose interest. Sure, you can get all the coolest looking gear that is associated with the hardest content you can do, but once a game has a lot of those types of cosmetics (see: gw2,wow) it becomes oversaturated / not exciting. Every game with vertical power progression at this point has cosmetic progression baked in to it in some capacity. I think the games that offer the best of both worlds are WoW and FF14. WoW leaning a little more in the vertical progression while ff14 leans more in cosmetic.
I personally feel like the most successful MMORPGs tend to have all 3 in abundance, but one system deserves a "dishonorable" mention imo. That system, mentioned in the article, is infinite progression.
Infinite progression is not a good system for any MMORPG. Period. The only way you can do this is through vertical progression and all that ends up happening is players get burned out. You don't need to be a hardcore player to get burnt out of infinite progression, either. The best example of this is WoW: Legion / BFA Artifact power. This system let you have near infinite progression and all it did is tire people out. Obviously it did not help that the design was purposed time gated "soft caps" so that you could not realistically get the power gains insanely high, but it didn't matter because the end result was the same. People grinded the same boring dungeons and world quests over and over just to gain marginal power. If you missed it, as a casual player, you felt kinda bad.
Another aspect of infinite progression that is just downright awful, is the lack of gameplay gained from it. Numbers going up is only exciting for so long; you need substance. This is why when you level up, you gain new abilities. A game developer can't possibly make enough abilities that are actually interesting for so long that players continually 'feel' rewarded for progression, let alone and infinite number of them. This also leads to power creep and catch up systems that make it all feel pointless down the road.
I think AA type systems are a mixed bag, but work on a smaller scale. If you have enough different 'things' to put points into to keep it interesting to keep leveling up at max level -- it can be okay in moderation. (I think ESO does a fairly decent job at this)
Overall I don't really feel like endgame is missing much, from a broader MMORPG perspective, at this point. We just need a ton of different things to do. That is the most important aspect of any MMO.
I think the best endgame systems that keep you coming back are the ones that offer vertical and horizontal progression with loads of options. We have to redefine what horizontal progression is, though. Horizontal progression is not necessarily focused on cosmetics. Horizontal progression can be some of the following:
1) New abilities that are of similar power to yours
2) New subclasses (see: elite specs in gw2 as an example)
3) FF14 job system (honestly can't think of other games that have this outside sandbox games)
4) Stuff like mounts that have abilities (gw2 / dragonflight / lost ark)
5) Mini game progression
6) Faction based content can be horizontal
7) Small progression systems (masteries in gw2)
8) Crafting
9) Gathering
10) PvP ranking
11) Arguably in some cases - alts (though this is also more vertical progression)
12) New weapons
13) Sets (see eso)
I like this list but a few things I would add:
A) Taming (another cool side part of some MMO's)
B ) Housing
C) Functional rare items (ex. in UO they had clothing black dye tubs, furniture dye, plus other rare functional items) people wanted these and they had a use
D) Rare items in general for your house, paintings, furniture, display items... (another UO item I thought was cool, was monster statues that made noises of mobs in game when you walked by, like dragons, demons etc... fun stuff freaking people out when walking by your house.
E) Secondary skills like fishing, treasure hunting ( i really like treasure hunting in games)
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
I was never able to get deep into ESO. So the endgame is exploration? What happens when you've explored every inch of every map?
And yet.....
Depending on what you do, pretty much like any other MMO, the end game of ESO can very much be a gear grind. If you are into the raiding scene, you'll grind loot.
You could say any MMO is doesn't have a gear grind if you exclude certain pieces of content. Kinda silly for someone to suggest that ESO doesn't have one. Less of one? Or maybe a greater focus on other things? Sure, but devoid of it? C'mon now.
Progress in ESO isn't tied to your gear. I can grind a single dungeon for a couple of hours, and get a complete set of gear that will allow me to do all the content in the game. If you want to collect sets for your sticker book, and to make crafting cheaper, then fine, you're going to be grinding, but there's not "better gear" that drops every couple of months, that you're forever trying to obtain, a la a never ending gear treadmill.
Progression instead is tied to your champion points. For those that don't know, champion points in ESO are like paragon levels in Diablo III, once you hit the level cap, you carry on levelling up, infinitely, and can spend points in various endgame talent trees to improve all the characters on your account.
My DK main uses the mother's sorrow set, which I've had for 5 years now. I've never felt the need to change it, I have, because it's fun to try new things, but it's still as viable a gear set now as it was then.
If you tried to use 5 year old gear sets in WoW, in current endgame content, it would not go well.
As in every activity (I felt this very strong with snowboarding), for me the fun ends when you stop learning. So in videogames they shuold just add content where players have to learn something new to play. Wow did it very good, to a point. For example I remember in BfA when raids started to need everybody speaking in discord to kill the gnome king in Mythic, it was so new thing, before that point only the raidleader had to speak. This is an example of NEW THING. Another new thing shuold be NEW DEVICES. how is even possible we are still playing with mouse and keyboard? We need games that use other controllers, that requires all the body moving, sensor that catch body movements and make your char move with your body, good also for fitness btw.
Progress in ESO isn't tied to your gear. I can grind a single dungeon for a couple of hours, and get a complete set of gear that will allow me to do all the content in the game. If you want to collect sets for your sticker book, and to make crafting cheaper, then fine, you're going to be grinding, but there's not "better gear" that drops every couple of months, that you're forever trying to obtain, a la a never ending gear treadmill.
Progression instead is tied to your champion points. For those that don't know, champion points in ESO are like paragon levels in Diablo III, once you hit the level cap, you carry on levelling up, infinitely, and can spend points in various endgame talent trees to improve all the characters on your account.
My DK main uses the mother's sorrow set, which I've had for 5 years now. I've never felt the need to change it, I have, because it's fun to try new things, but it's still as viable a gear set now as it was then.
If you tried to use 5 year old gear sets in WoW, in current endgame content, it would not go well.
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
My main issue was that the combat felt very boring. I sometimes log in for exploration but I feel like if I'm doing that, I can play Skyrim and get a better experience.
I like ESO, don't get me wrong. But I do feel that it gets stale pretty fast. [...]
Same, I loved ESO for graphics (modded) and the mods, and the story, but even the mods were not able to fix the terrible combat system. Combat is totally crap compared to games like BDO or Blade&Soul or even Bless Unleashed. Maybe I feel that cause I'm a caster/ranger, maybe a melee lover would enjoy ESO more... I don't know. On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... there are of course hard mobs, but noone goes to them till they don't have enough gear to one shot them, cause it's not EFFICIENT! People don't want to have fun, they want to be EFFICIENT even when they play: can you imagine that?? madness... Yeah I also like to have a reward for what i do when i play, but in BDO hard encounters are not rewarded well, it's better to oneshot the easy packs for hours and hours... Anyway for me best is still WoW, with the periodic expansions system, new class, new regions, new story, new abilities each expansion: too bad I can't play it anymore because I saw the graphics of BDO, Blade&Soul, even TERA was enough to make me feel sick playing wow graphics. I just wait for a wow2 with decent 202X graphics that seems never coming... very sad
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
I was never able to get deep into ESO. So the endgame is exploration? What happens when you've explored every inch of every map?
And yet.....
Depending on what you do, pretty much like any other MMO, the end game of ESO can very much be a gear grind. If you are into the raiding scene, you'll grind loot.
You could say any MMO is doesn't have a gear grind if you exclude certain pieces of content. Kinda silly for someone to suggest that ESO doesn't have one. Less of one? Or maybe a greater focus on other things? Sure, but devoid of it? C'mon now.
Progress in ESO isn't tied to your gear. I can grind a single dungeon for a couple of hours, and get a complete set of gear that will allow me to do all the content in the game. If you want to collect sets for your sticker book, and to make crafting cheaper, then fine, you're going to be grinding, but there's not "better gear" that drops every couple of months, that you're forever trying to obtain, a la a never ending gear treadmill.
Progression instead is tied to your champion points. For those that don't know, champion points in ESO are like paragon levels in Diablo III, once you hit the level cap, you carry on levelling up, infinitely, and can spend points in various endgame talent trees to improve all the characters on your account.
My DK main uses the mother's sorrow set, which I've had for 5 years now. I've never felt the need to change it, I have, because it's fun to try new things, but it's still as viable a gear set now as it was then.
If you tried to use 5 year old gear sets in WoW, in current endgame content, it would not go well.
I don't like systems like Champion Points because I think Character Identity is a very important element of MMORPGs, and Champ Points break that. However, as part of a Guild or Player City, I see a group achievement system (in a realistic way) as a very good thing. That becomes part of your Character's "story." It also promotes social glue.
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
My main issue was that the combat felt very boring. I sometimes log in for exploration but I feel like if I'm doing that, I can play Skyrim and get a better experience.
I like ESO, don't get me wrong. But I do feel that it gets stale pretty fast. [...]
Same, I loved ESO for graphics (modded) and the mods, and the story, but even the mods were not able to fix the terrible combat system. Combat is totally crap compared to games like BDO or Blade&Soul or even Bless Unleashed. Maybe I feel that cause I'm a caster/ranger, maybe a melee lover would enjoy ESO more... I don't know. On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... there are of course hard mobs, but noone goes to them till they don't have enough gear to one shot them, cause it's not EFFICIENT! People don't want to have fun, they want to be EFFICIENT even when they play: can you imagine that?? madness... Yeah I also like to have a reward for what i do when i play, but in BDO hard encounters are not rewarded well, it's better to oneshot the easy packs for hours and hours... Anyway for me best is still WoW, with the periodic expansions system, new class, new regions, new story, new abilities each expansion: too bad I can't play it anymore because I saw the graphics of BDO, Blade&Soul, even TERA was enough to make me feel sick playing wow graphics. I just wait for a wow2 with decent 202X graphics that seems never coming... very sad
I highlighted your "efficient" comment because I totally agree with it. I think there's a cause involved in that by the dedication to Grinding in game design.
I think the best endgame systems that keep you coming back are the ones that offer vertical and horizontal progression with loads of options. We have to redefine what horizontal progression is, though. Horizontal progression is not necessarily focused on cosmetics. Horizontal progression can be some of the following:
1) New abilities that are of similar power to yours
2) New subclasses (see: elite specs in gw2 as an example)
3) FF14 job system (honestly can't think of other games that have this outside sandbox games)
4) Stuff like mounts that have abilities (gw2 / dragonflight / lost ark)
5) Mini game progression
6) Faction based content can be horizontal
7) Small progression systems (masteries in gw2)
8) Crafting
9) Gathering
10) PvP ranking
11) Arguably in some cases - alts (though this is also more vertical progression)
12) New weapons
13) Sets (see eso)
Some of these are essentially "diagonal" progression, but you get the idea.
I think that cosmetic progression alone is on a time limit personally -- as once you get the fancy look you want, you may start to lose interest. Sure, you can get all the coolest looking gear that is associated with the hardest content you can do, but once a game has a lot of those types of cosmetics (see: gw2,wow) it becomes oversaturated / not exciting. Every game with vertical power progression at this point has cosmetic progression baked in to it in some capacity. I think the games that offer the best of both worlds are WoW and FF14. WoW leaning a little more in the vertical progression while ff14 leans more in cosmetic.
I personally feel like the most successful MMORPGs tend to have all 3 in abundance, but one system deserves a "dishonorable" mention imo. That system, mentioned in the article, is infinite progression.
Infinite progression is not a good system for any MMORPG. Period. The only way you can do this is through vertical progression and all that ends up happening is players get burned out. You don't need to be a hardcore player to get burnt out of infinite progression, either. The best example of this is WoW: Legion / BFA Artifact power. This system let you have near infinite progression and all it did is tire people out. Obviously it did not help that the design was purposed time gated "soft caps" so that you could not realistically get the power gains insanely high, but it didn't matter because the end result was the same. People grinded the same boring dungeons and world quests over and over just to gain marginal power. If you missed it, as a casual player, you felt kinda bad.
Another aspect of infinite progression that is just downright awful, is the lack of gameplay gained from it. Numbers going up is only exciting for so long; you need substance. This is why when you level up, you gain new abilities. A game developer can't possibly make enough abilities that are actually interesting for so long that players continually 'feel' rewarded for progression, let alone and infinite number of them. This also leads to power creep and catch up systems that make it all feel pointless down the road.
I think AA type systems are a mixed bag, but work on a smaller scale. If you have enough different 'things' to put points into to keep it interesting to keep leveling up at max level -- it can be okay in moderation. (I think ESO does a fairly decent job at this)
Overall I don't really feel like endgame is missing much, from a broader MMORPG perspective, at this point. We just need a ton of different things to do. That is the most important aspect of any MMO.
I really like this post, except for the part at the end where you seem to want to "fix End Game." I think End Game needs to be done away with by replacement.
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
I was never able to get deep into ESO. So the endgame is exploration? What happens when you've explored every inch of every map?
And yet.....
Depending on what you do, pretty much like any other MMO, the end game of ESO can very much be a gear grind. If you are into the raiding scene, you'll grind loot.
You could say any MMO is doesn't have a gear grind if you exclude certain pieces of content. Kinda silly for someone to suggest that ESO doesn't have one. Less of one? Or maybe a greater focus on other things? Sure, but devoid of it? C'mon now.
Progress in ESO isn't tied to your gear. I can grind a single dungeon for a couple of hours, and get a complete set of gear that will allow me to do all the content in the game. If you want to collect sets for your sticker book, and to make crafting cheaper, then fine, you're going to be grinding, but there's not "better gear" that drops every couple of months, that you're forever trying to obtain, a la a never ending gear treadmill.
Progression instead is tied to your champion points. For those that don't know, champion points in ESO are like paragon levels in Diablo III, once you hit the level cap, you carry on levelling up, infinitely, and can spend points in various endgame talent trees to improve all the characters on your account.
My DK main uses the mother's sorrow set, which I've had for 5 years now. I've never felt the need to change it, I have, because it's fun to try new things, but it's still as viable a gear set now as it was then.
If you tried to use 5 year old gear sets in WoW, in current endgame content, it would not go well.
I don't like systems like Champion Points because I think Character Identity is a very important element of MMORPGs, and Champ Points break that. However, as part of a Guild or Player City, I see a group achievement system (in a realistic way) as a very good thing. That becomes part of your Character's "story." It also promotes social glue.
I don't see how having access to even more intricacy in the design of one's character can be said to diminish the identity of it when it clearly expands on it.
It might cloud class identity, but that is something ESO has otherwise largely disposed of already at least in terms of casual play.
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
My main issue was that the combat felt very boring. I sometimes log in for exploration but I feel like if I'm doing that, I can play Skyrim and get a better experience.
I like ESO, don't get me wrong. But I do feel that it gets stale pretty fast. [...]
Same, I loved ESO for graphics (modded) and the mods, and the story, but even the mods were not able to fix the terrible combat system. Combat is totally crap compared to games like BDO or Blade&Soul or even Bless Unleashed. Maybe I feel that cause I'm a caster/ranger, maybe a melee lover would enjoy ESO more... I don't know. On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... there are of course hard mobs, but noone goes to them till they don't have enough gear to one shot them, cause it's not EFFICIENT! People don't want to have fun, they want to be EFFICIENT even when they play: can you imagine that?? madness... Yeah I also like to have a reward for what i do when i play, but in BDO hard encounters are not rewarded well, it's better to oneshot the easy packs for hours and hours... Anyway for me best is still WoW, with the periodic expansions system, new class, new regions, new story, new abilities each expansion: too bad I can't play it anymore because I saw the graphics of BDO, Blade&Soul, even TERA was enough to make me feel sick playing wow graphics. I just wait for a wow2 with decent 202X graphics that seems never coming... very sad
Melee combat is a bit more involving as you must deal with close combat all the time while ranged characters can often better avoid that when grouped.
I'm happy enough with that provided by varied attack strength, blocking, interrupting, and dodging. To me that's active and detailed enough for a MMORPG.
It's no BDO or Blade & Soul, but if I wanted that I'd be playing them, or bypassing them entirely for something even more action focused.
Whether it's done with gear or like ESO does it, with their post-50 champion points passives system, MMORPGs need something that keeps you leveling even if it's done by another name.
We may not like the grind but we would like the lack of grind even less.
There is just no way that any studio can keep pumping out new zones with new content as fast as we consume it.
I can do whatever I want whenever and so long as the character is level 50 the CP flows in regardless. It's hard for me to see that as a grind compared to a game that shoehorns me into a limited range of activities and content to advance.
Content will never keep up with consumption, as you say. To retain interest the player must come up with their own goals for the gaps between completion and the release of the next batch to consume.
My point wasn't to equate ESO's end-game advancement system to gear grinds. It was simply an example of how all MMORPGs, whether they do it with the chase for more powerful gear or some other nearly infinite progression system as ESO does, need to have a system where the players keep getting stronger in some way because that chase for more competence/power is what drives the majority of players to keep playing.
And ESO actually is not immune from some gear grind as evidenced by new Mythic items that are added to the Antiquities gameplay with each new zone.
Most are only mildly vertical power conferring in the effects granted by these single pieces of gear. and you're also of course limited to only using one Mythic item at any one time. Still, some of those items are literal game changers (e.g. the Oakensoul Ring from High Isle) but grinding the leads - typically 5 or 6 leads - in order to be able to assemble it, which are RNG drops from specific mob kills or locations, is an indistinguishable task from the RNG gear grind other MMOs use.
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I feel for MMORPGs moving forward if your game has an 'End Game' you designed it wrong.
Lots of upvotes, but not many examples of MMORPGS without an "endgame" so I'll share one of the few I've actually played, EVE Online, endgame begins almost at the start, because there really isn't one to speak of in the traditional sense.
Whether it's done with gear or like ESO does it, with their post-50 champion points passives system, MMORPGs need something that keeps you leveling even if it's done by another name.
We may not like the grind but we would like the lack of grind even less.
There is just no way that any studio can keep pumping out new zones with new content as fast as we consume it.
I can do whatever I want whenever and so long as the character is level 50 the CP flows in regardless. It's hard for me to see that as a grind compared to a game that shoehorns me into a limited range of activities and content to advance.
Content will never keep up with consumption, as you say. To retain interest the player must come up with their own goals for the gaps between completion and the release of the next batch to consume.
And ESO actually is not immune from some gear grind as evidenced by new Mythic items that are added to the Antiquities gameplay with each new zone.
Most are only mildly vertical power conferring in the effects granted by these single pieces of gear. and you're also of course limited to only using one Mythic item at any one time. Still, some of those items are literal game changers (e.g. the Oakensoul Ring from High Isle) but grinding the leads - typically 5 or 6 leads - in order to be able to assemble it, which are RNG drops from specific mob kills or locations, is an indistinguishable task from the RNG gear grind other MMOs use.
I have never needed or sought out mythic items, so whatever grind that involves is entirely optional.
The Oakensoul Ring is a game changer, but not entirely positively so. The primary value of it is making one bar builds more powerful while at the same time denying use of the second bar. While that is convenient I can emulate what a particular build needs out of the assortment of buffs it offers through other means, partly due to my second bar still being accessible. I can live without the game changes it provides.
Whether it's done with gear or like ESO does it, with their post-50 champion points passives system, MMORPGs need something that keeps you leveling even if it's done by another name.
We may not like the grind but we would like the lack of grind even less.
There is just no way that any studio can keep pumping out new zones with new content as fast as we consume it.
I can do whatever I want whenever and so long as the character is level 50 the CP flows in regardless. It's hard for me to see that as a grind compared to a game that shoehorns me into a limited range of activities and content to advance.
Content will never keep up with consumption, as you say. To retain interest the player must come up with their own goals for the gaps between completion and the release of the next batch to consume.
And ESO actually is not immune from some gear grind as evidenced by new Mythic items that are added to the Antiquities gameplay with each new zone.
Most are only mildly vertical power conferring in the effects granted by these single pieces of gear. and you're also of course limited to only using one Mythic item at any one time. Still, some of those items are literal game changers (e.g. the Oakensoul Ring from High Isle) but grinding the leads - typically 5 or 6 leads - in order to be able to assemble it, which are RNG drops from specific mob kills or locations, is an indistinguishable task from the RNG gear grind other MMOs use.
I have never needed or sought out mythic items, so whatever grind that involves is entirely optional.
The Oakensoul Ring is a game changer, but not entirely positively so. The primary value of it is making one bar builds more powerful while at the same time denying use of the second bar. While that is convenient I can emulate what a particular build needs out of the assortment of buffs it offers through other means, partly due to my second bar still being accessible. I can live without the game changes it provides.
I have a sorcerer 1-bar build with two gear sets that buff heavy attacks and the Oakensoul ring that also buffs heavy attacks by 80% in addition to all the other buffs t gives.
I channel my lightning staff with that build doing nothing but heavy attacks and in the right veteran groups with tanks and healers providing other buffs I have done 40K plus heavy attack ticks.
There certainly is no need to pursue any item in ESO or in any other game for that matter but most of us do.
You may just be a rare casual that doesn't care about that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Meanwhile, in ESO, I haven't played in YEARS. My character is still max level, still in top-grade gear (though the set may not be top tier).
Same with EVE Online. Again, haven't played in years. My character is still top tier with nearly all skills maxed out.
I just don't get why people enjoy being reset every couple of years. And that's exactly what is happening. It's no different than if they wiped your character and made you start over at lvl 1.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Whether it's done with gear or like ESO does it, with their post-50 champion points passives system, MMORPGs need something that keeps you leveling even if it's done by another name.
We may not like the grind but we would like the lack of grind even less.
There is just no way that any studio can keep pumping out new zones with new content as fast as we consume it.
I can do whatever I want whenever and so long as the character is level 50 the CP flows in regardless. It's hard for me to see that as a grind compared to a game that shoehorns me into a limited range of activities and content to advance.
Content will never keep up with consumption, as you say. To retain interest the player must come up with their own goals for the gaps between completion and the release of the next batch to consume.
And ESO actually is not immune from some gear grind as evidenced by new Mythic items that are added to the Antiquities gameplay with each new zone.
Most are only mildly vertical power conferring in the effects granted by these single pieces of gear. and you're also of course limited to only using one Mythic item at any one time. Still, some of those items are literal game changers (e.g. the Oakensoul Ring from High Isle) but grinding the leads - typically 5 or 6 leads - in order to be able to assemble it, which are RNG drops from specific mob kills or locations, is an indistinguishable task from the RNG gear grind other MMOs use.
I have never needed or sought out mythic items, so whatever grind that involves is entirely optional.
The Oakensoul Ring is a game changer, but not entirely positively so. The primary value of it is making one bar builds more powerful while at the same time denying use of the second bar. While that is convenient I can emulate what a particular build needs out of the assortment of buffs it offers through other means, partly due to my second bar still being accessible. I can live without the game changes it provides.
I have a sorcerer 1-bar build with two gear sets that buff heavy attacks and the Oakensoul ring that also buffs heavy attacks by 80% in addition to all the other buffs t gives.
I channel my lightning staff with that build doing nothing but heavy attacks and in the right veteran groups with tanks and healers providing other buffs I have done 40K plus heavy attack ticks.
There certainly is no need to pursue any item in ESO or in any other game for that matter but most of us do.
You may just be a rare casual that doesn't care about that.
Yeah, it's a really good ring if everything you want to have access to fits on one bar. If not it is instead an entirely useless ring and Empower if desired will need to be sought elsewhere. So overall, it is a ring of extremes rather than supreme.
I'm sure I'll get around to getting one eventually but it's not a big priority for me. Those that would rather not ever bar swap should seek it out though, as for them the main drawback the ring isn't one.
It's not that I don't care. My characters have gear sets, even the low level ones as they aren't hard to get just playing through basic content. Oakensoul just isn't a be all, end all to me that I feel driven to acquire.
not one mention of elder scrolls online, hrm i wonder why. no boring token and cookie cutter gearsets, no pointless ilvl farm crap. just focus on story and exploration
its the best mmo
My main issue was that the combat felt very boring. I sometimes log in for exploration but I feel like if I'm doing that, I can play Skyrim and get a better experience.
I like ESO, don't get me wrong. But I do feel that it gets stale pretty fast. [...]
Same, I loved ESO for graphics (modded) and the mods, and the story, but even the mods were not able to fix the terrible combat system. Combat is totally crap compared to games like BDO or Blade&Soul or even Bless Unleashed. Maybe I feel that cause I'm a caster/ranger, maybe a melee lover would enjoy ESO more... I don't know. On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... [...]
Melee combat is a bit more involving as you must deal with close combat all the time while ranged characters can often better avoid that when grouped.
I'm happy enough with that provided by varied attack strength, blocking, interrupting, and dodging. To me that's active and detailed enough for a MMORPG.
It's no BDO or Blade & Soul, but if I wanted that I'd be playing them, or bypassing them entirely for something even more action focused.
For me Wow had the best combat gameplay, as ranger/caster. I miss the spells that slow down/stun/control the mobs so you can kill them before they reach you, it's a very simple mechanic but it's satisfying and i don't understand why it's not present in many rpgs. Or the traps of hunter, or the spell that buff another spell if subsequent so you can create a rotation, i loved elem shaman rotation in BFA for this. So NO definetly "varied attack strength, blocking, interrupting, and dodging" is NOT ENOUGH for me, and not only because they are few, but also because they are very ARCADE, in the sense that the main thing is timing them, not what they do, I like strategy, before RPG I was playing RTS, that's why I can't play soul games, I tried Elden Ring because the stunning graphics, but the combat is just ARCADE, not much of planning your rotations, knowing your class, timing your abilities: these things I like in the gameplay. Saddest thing is seeing games with great graphics and scenery like tower of fantasy... where you can use like 4 different attacks? Are those MMORPG for dummies or what? and there are tons coming out. While the few games with some 20/30 abilities have 2010 graphics like wow and gw2. So sad about it. Is it so hard to add some old style combat? they could even release a game that you can play in different styles, 4 abilities class and 30 abilities class, why not doing that? speaking about pve only. PvP I'm not a big fun, cause in most mmo is a joke, even if in wow classic I enjoyed it, finally.
My motivation is more about playing fresh content and better gear is a bonus. The most depressing thing is when you have to play dated content for drops, there's just so much repetition you can take.
17+ years later and I still enjoy wow raiding, probably even more than I did when I was younger.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Comments
The survival genre tries to square the circle by doing the same, what you do at the end game is at least partially what you do at the start. I don't mind some of the survival principles, it is just their overuse that turns me off and also what we are doing. You could argue that EVE and Elite are survival games, but what you are doing there would not annoy me like collecting more tree branches or stones does. Also, it is a matter of how you dress it up as much as what you do. Make my branch and stone gathering help repair the guild keep and I am there!
Having a PvE experience which ends in realm versus realm is the best way to make a MMORPG in my eyes, but it is in danger of falling between two stools like nearly every MMO does. That is a huge transition in gameplay, which is why I favour PvE dungeons as well, so players don't feel a gulf opening up.
MMORP's are the best genre because they try to fit a variety of playstyles into one game, but that is not always going to make for a good fit. It has been the genre's Achilles heel from the start.
Different people have different tastes. City of Heroes was my favourite MMO because I enjoyed its stories, it was solo-friendly, but I could also team up with others. It was also fun seeing the creativity and character stories from other players.
CoH didn't really have endgame content for most of its years, but it offered dozens of character slots and lots of power and costume options, which made it fun to create a lot of characters, something that is more limited in other MMOs.
1) New abilities that are of similar power to yours
2) New subclasses (see: elite specs in gw2 as an example)
3) FF14 job system (honestly can't think of other games that have this outside sandbox games)
4) Stuff like mounts that have abilities (gw2 / dragonflight / lost ark)
5) Mini game progression
6) Faction based content can be horizontal
7) Small progression systems (masteries in gw2)
8) Crafting
9) Gathering
10) PvP ranking
11) Arguably in some cases - alts (though this is also more vertical progression)
12) New weapons
13) Sets (see eso)
Some of these are essentially "diagonal" progression, but you get the idea.
I think that cosmetic progression alone is on a time limit personally -- as once you get the fancy look you want, you may start to lose interest. Sure, you can get all the coolest looking gear that is associated with the hardest content you can do, but once a game has a lot of those types of cosmetics (see: gw2,wow) it becomes oversaturated / not exciting. Every game with vertical power progression at this point has cosmetic progression baked in to it in some capacity. I think the games that offer the best of both worlds are WoW and FF14. WoW leaning a little more in the vertical progression while ff14 leans more in cosmetic.
I personally feel like the most successful MMORPGs tend to have all 3 in abundance, but one system deserves a "dishonorable" mention imo. That system, mentioned in the article, is infinite progression.
Infinite progression is not a good system for any MMORPG. Period. The only way you can do this is through vertical progression and all that ends up happening is players get burned out. You don't need to be a hardcore player to get burnt out of infinite progression, either. The best example of this is WoW: Legion / BFA Artifact power. This system let you have near infinite progression and all it did is tire people out. Obviously it did not help that the design was purposed time gated "soft caps" so that you could not realistically get the power gains insanely high, but it didn't matter because the end result was the same. People grinded the same boring dungeons and world quests over and over just to gain marginal power. If you missed it, as a casual player, you felt kinda bad.
Another aspect of infinite progression that is just downright awful, is the lack of gameplay gained from it. Numbers going up is only exciting for so long; you need substance. This is why when you level up, you gain new abilities. A game developer can't possibly make enough abilities that are actually interesting for so long that players continually 'feel' rewarded for progression, let alone and infinite number of them. This also leads to power creep and catch up systems that make it all feel pointless down the road.
I think AA type systems are a mixed bag, but work on a smaller scale. If you have enough different 'things' to put points into to keep it interesting to keep leveling up at max level -- it can be okay in moderation. (I think ESO does a fairly decent job at this)
Overall I don't really feel like endgame is missing much, from a broader MMORPG perspective, at this point. We just need a ton of different things to do. That is the most important aspect of any MMO.
I like this list but a few things I would add:
A) Taming (another cool side part of some MMO's)
B ) Housing
C) Functional rare items (ex. in UO they had clothing black dye tubs, furniture dye, plus other rare functional items) people wanted these and they had a use
D) Rare items in general for your house, paintings, furniture, display items... (another UO item I thought was cool, was monster statues that made noises of mobs in game when you walked by, like dragons, demons etc... fun stuff freaking people out when walking by your house.
E) Secondary skills like fishing, treasure hunting ( i really like treasure hunting in games)
Progress in ESO isn't tied to your gear. I can grind a single dungeon for a couple of hours, and get a complete set of gear that will allow me to do all the content in the game. If you want to collect sets for your sticker book, and to make crafting cheaper, then fine, you're going to be grinding, but there's not "better gear" that drops every couple of months, that you're forever trying to obtain, a la a never ending gear treadmill.
Progression instead is tied to your champion points. For those that don't know, champion points in ESO are like paragon levels in Diablo III, once you hit the level cap, you carry on levelling up, infinitely, and can spend points in various endgame talent trees to improve all the characters on your account.
My DK main uses the mother's sorrow set, which I've had for 5 years now. I've never felt the need to change it, I have, because it's fun to try new things, but it's still as viable a gear set now as it was then.
If you tried to use 5 year old gear sets in WoW, in current endgame content, it would not go well.
On the other hand BDO have terrible mobs, just idiot mobs that you one-shot in packs, so all the fancy spells and abilities just goes into using one or 2 combo... there are of course hard mobs, but noone goes to them till they don't have enough gear to one shot them, cause it's not EFFICIENT! People don't want to have fun, they want to be EFFICIENT even when they play: can you imagine that?? madness...
Yeah I also like to have a reward for what i do when i play, but in BDO hard encounters are not rewarded well, it's better to oneshot the easy packs for hours and hours...
Anyway for me best is still WoW, with the periodic expansions system, new class, new regions, new story, new abilities each expansion: too bad I can't play it anymore because I saw the graphics of BDO, Blade&Soul, even TERA was enough to make me feel sick playing wow graphics. I just wait for a wow2 with decent 202X graphics that seems never coming... very sad
@Scot thanks for the welcome
However, as part of a Guild or Player City, I see a group achievement system (in a realistic way) as a very good thing. That becomes part of your Character's "story." It also promotes social glue.
Once upon a time....
I think there's a cause involved in that by the dedication to Grinding in game design.
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
I don't see how having access to even more intricacy in the design of one's character can be said to diminish the identity of it when it clearly expands on it.
It might cloud class identity, but that is something ESO has otherwise largely disposed of already at least in terms of casual play.
It's no BDO or Blade & Soul, but if I wanted that I'd be playing them, or bypassing them entirely for something even more action focused.
And ESO actually is not immune from some gear grind as evidenced by new Mythic items that are added to the Antiquities gameplay with each new zone.
Most are only mildly vertical power conferring in the effects granted by these single pieces of gear. and you're also of course limited to only using one Mythic item at any one time. Still, some of those items are literal game changers (e.g. the Oakensoul Ring from High Isle) but grinding the leads - typically 5 or 6 leads - in order to be able to assemble it, which are RNG drops from specific mob kills or locations, is an indistinguishable task from the RNG gear grind other MMOs use.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I have never needed or sought out mythic items, so whatever grind that involves is entirely optional.
The Oakensoul Ring is a game changer, but not entirely positively so. The primary value of it is making one bar builds more powerful while at the same time denying use of the second bar. While that is convenient I can emulate what a particular build needs out of the assortment of buffs it offers through other means, partly due to my second bar still being accessible. I can live without the game changes it provides.
I channel my lightning staff with that build doing nothing but heavy attacks and in the right veteran groups with tanks and healers providing other buffs I have done 40K plus heavy attack ticks.
There certainly is no need to pursue any item in ESO or in any other game for that matter but most of us do.
You may just be a rare casual that doesn't care about that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Same with EVE Online. Again, haven't played in years. My character is still top tier with nearly all skills maxed out.
I just don't get why people enjoy being reset every couple of years. And that's exactly what is happening. It's no different than if they wiped your character and made you start over at lvl 1.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Yeah, it's a really good ring if everything you want to have access to fits on one bar. If not it is instead an entirely useless ring and Empower if desired will need to be sought elsewhere. So overall, it is a ring of extremes rather than supreme.
I'm sure I'll get around to getting one eventually but it's not a big priority for me. Those that would rather not ever bar swap should seek it out though, as for them the main drawback the ring isn't one.
It's not that I don't care. My characters have gear sets, even the low level ones as they aren't hard to get just playing through basic content. Oakensoul just isn't a be all, end all to me that I feel driven to acquire.
17+ years later and I still enjoy wow raiding, probably even more than I did when I was younger.