This does present a bit thing regarding challenge in games though too, in terms of why many games swing challenge towards the lowest common denominator, and why it ends up leaving PvE in a lackluster state. Trying to tune that line where the content is engaging and scales to meet player challenge without blowing past their ability to achieve is hard.
Not as hard as you think, with instances games like ESO/WoW did it with various difficulty instances, in an Open world just make it harder the farther you get from town.
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Its mechanics like this is probably why the game is completely unknown to most people. I was playing video games back then and I have no clue what game you are even talking about.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
I like your vision. You are thinking bigger and better, more dynamic, out of the box... So so many people are unable to actually think outside of the systems and style we currently have in the genre. When you say to the typical person "envision your own MMORPG", the picture they have in their head just usually mimics what we already have.
I do think the future of MMORPG's either target a VERY specific feature strongly (like a big focus around a rogelite system + risk vs reward + PvP) or will have to be bigger and better than what we currently envision... A large open PvE sandbox world that includes dynamically changing enemy settlements, a dynamic world, also possibly dynamic AI generated content like NPC dialogue/quests etc.
Or a sort of hybrid of those that I just mentioned.
These are just 'ideas' of course. The nice thing about games is they are creatively endless and tech is becoming less and less of a bottleneck as time goes on.
In my eyes, there seems to be a fast growing audience these days in gaming of people who want more risk vs reward in their games. They are tired of how dumbed down so many games are and are finding a thrill with the risk vs reward. You can definitely see this on streaming platforms like twitch. This is why survival, BR, Tarkov/Dark & Darker, roguelike/roguelite games and Dark Souls blew up in recent years...
So I think we should revisit that, as funnily enough, the oldschool MMORPG's actually had a lot of this already!
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Fighting bosses where you could legitimatly take a hit to stats, and need to get the help of another large guild in order to to get all your gear back if you died, was a real thrill.
Yep. The beginning of this kind of game was way back in the beginnings of MMORPGs, and lost since then, or failed to enhance it very much.
They need enhanced, naturally. Greatly enhanced, at this point.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
It's one of the things I loved in Tabula Rasa, how the aliens could trek across the map and take over bases you'd have to fight to control and protect.
Think the thing to say is that players have to always have a way to engage with the game and progress through content. Base/city capture should not be an insurmountable proposition if it's in the way of doing quests.
Relocate the quest NPCs to a temporary refugee camp for example. Or give the quest itself bonus for participating in a rescue.
This does present a bit thing regarding challenge in games though too, in terms of why many games swing challenge towards the lowest common denominator, and why it ends up leaving PvE in a lackluster state. Trying to tune that line where the content is engaging and scales to meet player challenge without blowing past their ability to achieve is hard.
Tabula Rasa is one game I regret never getting to play. I had been waiting a bit for them to better flesh out the gameplay systems when to my surprise NCSoft pulled the plug, largely out of spite as part of their upcoming lawsuit with Sir Richard.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Spying is an artform in EVE, the situation you're describing is so common I'm not sure which takedown you are referencing.
In most every case the corp pulls itself back together and ventures forward to greater stories and glory...
You literally named nothing which EVE doesn't already provide in your examples which makes me question whether or not you really are sure what you are seeking.
Or is it only if Devs code the npc's so you always can win?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This does present a bit thing regarding challenge in games though too, in terms of why many games swing challenge towards the lowest common denominator, and why it ends up leaving PvE in a lackluster state. Trying to tune that line where the content is engaging and scales to meet player challenge without blowing past their ability to achieve is hard.
Not as hard as you think, with instances games like ESO/WoW did it with various difficulty instances, in an Open world just make it harder the farther you get from town.
With instances and having fixed zoning to range things from, you can scale content yeah.
But in the prior provided context of zones being pushed back and forth in control and mobs being able to take over towns? Bit of a wrench.
The more dynamic/flexible a world space is, the more responsive the scaling of content needs to be as well.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Spying is an artform in EVE, the situation you're describing is so common I'm not sure which takedown you are referencing.
In most every case the corp pulls itself back together and ventures forward to greater stories and glory...
You literally named nothing which EVE doesn't already provide in your examples which makes me question whether or not you really are sure what you are seeking.
Or is it only if Devs code the npc's so you always can win?
That was a post about a specific Event. It says nothing about the rest of the game and its design. Any specific things about game play is going to depend on how the game is designed.
The thing is, you know what kind of game design I want, and what the goals are as far as socialization, less division by design, Sandbox, AI, and overall game play. You've read my posts, made comment, liked, and argued about, my posts for years. So how the hell can you say that you wonder if I know what I want?
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
For the love of all the gods, man! Where do you get these ideas? I do not want those things. Pull your own head out of the "same old" crapola and consider that there are ways to handle all of that.
I swear, you guys claim you want better MMORPGs, but you are so fixated on the current ways that you can't even open your minds to other possibilities. Assume-the-worst is your go-to argument?
Get rid of Instances. That's fixed content and that's why people are tired of MMORPGs. They aren't worlds, they are the "same old thing."
A very successful MMORPG is going to need a huge world that's alive, not the same old thing. In that huge world, you can have all kinds of locations. Including places that are empty except for possible Wandering MOBs, maybe some random spawn of resources, whatever. Imagine turning your fixed Instanced content into living world content, where those "empty" spaces are filled with something special. A game where your fixed instanced content isn't a fixed, instanced quest, but rather it comes from a "find", a message, from loot or discovery.
Create "Worlds" again, not just games.
Nah I will keep the main dungeon boss instances, epic dungeon instances, and world boss instances.
Thinking a world without instances is just someones utopia. In reality when you put other players into the mix there is always going to be problems. Boss camping Dungeon camping Chest camping Rare mob camping 1 guy tagging a world boss and running it around the zone for 30 minutes while his guild logs in. People training mobs while you on the boss Going all the way across the zone to a dungeon with a group of friends only to find the dungeon is cleared. Only the top guild gets every world boss because they have people sitting on boss watch rotations Multiple groups fighting for the same dungeon spots Groups stealing the boss kill after you clear the entire dungeon etc...
Yeah no thanks, I dont have time or patience for all that. When me and my friends log in, we want to have fun. We dont want all these issues interferring with that. I also want to experience the content of the game and I dont want to have to play 16 hours a day for a year just to have a shot at a boss kill.
All, or most at any rate, of those problems are built into the game type that you seem to want, fixed content.
You won't have most of that, if not all of it, in a world like I'm talking about. A "living world" where Boss MOBs could be anywhere but are not fixed for your uneventful and boring convenience.
You're making the choice to continue the same old thing that's become monotonous boredom to most. That's your right. But your argument is based on the flaws of your own gaming wants. Not mine.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
For the love of all the gods, man! Where do you get these ideas? I do not want those things. Pull your own head out of the "same old" crapola and consider that there are ways to handle all of that.
I swear, you guys claim you want better MMORPGs, but you are so fixated on the current ways that you can't even open your minds to other possibilities. Assume-the-worst is your go-to argument?
Yeah well you can only really go on what is being delivered now and in the near future. How many innovations you want out of devs. Now they have to solve every single problem with open worlds and deliver a great game. Can you throw in world peace and world hunger while you are at it.
If they deliver the game world you are asking for, most of the problems I stated will exist. You can dream all you want to until reality slams into your face.
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Spying is an artform in EVE, the situation you're describing is so common I'm not sure which takedown you are referencing.
In most every case the corp pulls itself back together and ventures forward to greater stories and glory...
You literally named nothing which EVE doesn't already provide in your examples which makes me question whether or not you really are sure what you are seeking.
Or is it only if Devs code the npc's so you always can win?
That was a post about a specific Event. It says nothing about the rest of the game and its design. Any specific things about game play is going to depend on how the game is designed.
The thing is, you know what kind of game design I want, and what the goals are as far as socialization, less division by design, Sandbox, AI, and overall game play. You've read my posts, made comment, liked, and argued about, my posts for years. So how the hell can you say that you wonder if I know what I want?
In your previous post(s) you listed a number of features in a specific scenario you thought would be great.
I pointed out EVE literally offered every single feature including the scenario itself, player withdrawl from an invincible assault on their city and you said EVE offered nothing you wanted despite my examples / evidence to the contrary that it had equivalent for everything.
There wasn't time to address every single feature you wanted but I didn't see anything in your scenario, assassin's, healers, logically lead strategic withdrawl, etc. which wasn't offered today in EVE...yet..you rejected it....I guess because....
The one big difference....EVE uses players to pull everything off, but you and others are only OK if the devs code it artificially.... presumably so you can always win?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
Reading some other replies on this, it finally hit me why I dislike this idea: Warcraft: Orcs and Humans.
With most RTS games the scenarios a player goes through eventually ends up with enemy(ies) that have tanks vs your bow archers. Sometimes they "team up" against the player. That feeling of helplessness is not something I want in an MMO
I know LOTS of players enjoy this kind of challenge. It's just not for me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Edit to add: My dream game play is all about Enhanced PvE. In a World that feels alive. That includes MOBs marching om Player Built Cities, Dragon attacks, etc. It also includes deep Lore and mysteries based off of that.
I'm tired of "Just Games."
while not my "dream game" I've absolutely love a game where pve npc's/monsters marched on cities and actually could take them.
People want a quest? The quest would be to sneak in (or liberate the city) in order to get your stuff.
But most people wouldn't like that. I remember someone complaining in Rift that an invasion was keeping them from "questing."
ugh.
I don't know, there will always be some complaints. That doesn't mean that there are a lot of gamers who feel the same.
Just imagine.
Players attempting to defeat the MOB March, and if that fails it serves to slow the March down. The Great Exodus of caravans moving needed Player supplies and equipment to another city, where a temporary "camp" is being set up and defended by Players outside its walls.
Mages Gating Players into their well protected Towers to run Raids inside their city against the invading horde. Players running Raids from outside. The great battles to free their city. Guilds from around the game world coming to make their mark on the World and its history.
Player Clerics taking back their Temples and calling on the powers of their Deities to set up defensive Wards, forming command centers for the retaking of their city. Warriors (and others) earning in-game medals for killing Named MOBs. Assassins running silent attacks to kill MOB leaders. Thieves opening locks, disarming Traps, setting Traps, and scouting for locations of MOB Bosses.
Quarter by quarter, area by area, the retaking of the city.
Who wouldn't want to participate in that?
What a story that would be, eh?
I don't have the time to go into full detail, but literally every activity you described happens in EVE every day, it's just players who are the heros and villains, not some computer generated event.
You want assassin's, EVE'S Stealth fleets fit the bill.
Corporations can and often award their members medals they create themselves for service above and beyond.
Retaking cities quarter by quarter? In my first 6 months in EVE I was part of a massive Raven battleship fleet (200+) that relentlessly pounded star system after system nightly, knocking down all defenses and setting the stage for the conquest fleet running behind us.
It took 2 or 3 months of nightly effort but resulted in the permanent destruction of the BOB Empire.
The logistics were phenomenal, the fleet had to coordinate healing fleets, recon activities and maneuver capitol ship fleets into place to prevent any interference with our "scorched space ways" fleet.
The small corp I was part of actually claimed a star system in our name during the war but the leadership traded it for a full fitted mothership which were quite costly and difficult to obtain in EVE's earlier days.
Besides, we were a mercenaey stealth Corp at heart who had been originally hired to perform stealth recon, gate camp enemy resupply routes etc. so holding sovereignty wasn't really our thing.
The game you are seeking already exists....but ny guess is you, like many others will have a list of reasons not to.
You'll never get the game you want, exactly the way you want. I play what's available rather than wish for that which is unlikely to ever happen, but to each their own.
Cheers.....have to go down and do my daily "chores" in New World....
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Spying is an artform in EVE, the situation you're describing is so common I'm not sure which takedown you are referencing.
In most every case the corp pulls itself back together and ventures forward to greater stories and glory...
You literally named nothing which EVE doesn't already provide in your examples which makes me question whether or not you really are sure what you are seeking.
Or is it only if Devs code the npc's so you always can win?
Yes! Gimme training wheels, please
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes. Human societies run on the "lowest common denominator." Therefore, laws. The same with games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes. Human societies run on the "lowest common denominator." Therefore, laws. The same with games.
That has been a contention from day one, the bread and circuses of Rome as opposed to Romes great art, architecture and empire. Increasingly I see Western societies more interested in bread and circuses than having any actual ambitious direction that they want to try to aim for.
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Its mechanics like this is probably why the game is completely unknown to most people. I was playing video games back then and I have no clue what game you are even talking about.
You assume way too much. Sure, the game did have a very very very small playerbase compared to todays numbers...
Why you ask?
Is it because people didn't like the thrill of having risk in their MMO?
No.
It was because in 1996 barely anyone had the internet and didn't even know a game like this was even possible. Most people didn't even have PC's let alone the internet. Also, most people who did have a PC and the internet had to pay by the minute for their internet.
The game was a MUD with a 2D frontend and it was tick-based. It was a super cool game way ahead of its time in many areas.
It was basically a sandbox where it had: -Raids, solo or group content (but it was split just because it was tuned for different difficulties, meaning sometimes you just HAD to have a group or raid, unless you were a complete beast.
-Had PvP but really just because it openly allowed attacking others if you felt like it (though you become an outsider because you would lose repuation with town NPC's, they would attack you in towns and you couldn't use shops and such, it was basically possible, but heavily discouraged, so people wouldn't really do it, PvE was very much the focus).
-No map, which was super cool actually because it felt like you were exploring unknown areas all the time (in fact, sometimes you literally were, sometimes you found places no one ever knew about in the entire game). Some of the dungeons were HUGE with many different levels (going deeper) and makes WoW's dungeons look like pathetic little minigames.
-There were multiple different continents all that had a variety of difficulty, each one had easy-hard content so you would go back and forth for different content.
-And more.
Amusingly, the scope of this game was way larger than many games out there right now.
I guess one of the closer games to it would be like UO. But imagine one that wasn't quite as sandbox in the sense it was mainly all about exploration and combat. Their own take on Dungeons and Dragons pretty much, with a huge open world, and your character had a race (human, elf, dwarf, halfling etc), had stats that you rolled on character creation (str, agi, con, wis, int, char etc), you would then train after character creation to be a Fighter, Barbarian, Healer, Mentalist, Thief, Martial Artist, Paladin etc and in whatever weapons/skills you wanted.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
All of those shortcoming you listed have been dealt with in different MMORPG's. Those issue are problems of the past.
You have a very very boxed in way of thinking about MMORPG's and how systems work in them I think. This is exactly what I'm saying we need to break out of. Particularly as tech these days is a lot better than when these issues you mention were surfaced.
What actually matters here is how the systems are built and how they are tuned. Which goes back to my original posts.
Again, you assume too much.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
FFXIV added a solo instance "In from the Cold" in the Endwalker expansion. This introduced several of the characteristics talked about in the OP's post - work it out for yourself - no hand held guidance - a mistake punishable by death/instance failure and so on.
Result? Pages and pages of forum complaints. Threats to quit the game if it wasn't dumbed down. One forum complaint about it (linked here) ran to over 55 pages.
Conclusion? A lot of people (not all) talk about a less supportive game, but don't really want one.
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Its mechanics like this is probably why the game is completely unknown to most people. I was playing video games back then and I have no clue what game you are even talking about.
You assume way too much. Sure, the game did have a very very very small playerbase compared to todays numbers...
Why you ask?
Is it because people didn't like the thrill of having risk in their MMO?
No.
It was because in 1996 barely anyone had the internet and didn't even know a game like this was even possible. Most people didn't even have PC's let alone the internet. Also, most people who did have a PC and the internet had to pay by the minute for their internet.
The game was a MUD with a 2D frontend and it was tick-based. It was a super cool game way ahead of its time in many areas.
It was basically a sandbox where it had: -Raids, solo or group content (but it was split just because it was tuned for different difficulties, meaning sometimes you just HAD to have a group or raid, unless you were a complete beast.
-Had PvP but really just because it openly allowed attacking others if you felt like it (though you become an outsider because you would lose repuation with town NPC's, they would attack you in towns and you couldn't use shops and such, it was basically possible, but heavily discouraged, so people wouldn't really do it, PvE was very much the focus).
-No map, which was super cool actually because it felt like you were exploring unknown areas all the time (in fact, sometimes you literally were, sometimes you found places no one ever knew about in the entire game). Some of the dungeons were HUGE with many different levels (going deeper) and makes WoW's dungeons look like pathetic little minigames.
-There were multiple different continents all that had a variety of difficulty, each one had easy-hard content so you would go back and forth for different content.
-And more.
Amusingly, the scope of this game was way larger than many games out there right now.
I guess one of the closer games to it would be like UO. But imagine one that wasn't quite as sandbox in the sense it was mainly all about exploration and combat. Their own take on Dungeons and Dragons pretty much, with a huge open world, and your character had a race (human, elf, dwarf, halfling etc), had stats that you rolled on character creation (str, agi, con, wis, int, char etc), you would then train after character creation to be a Fighter, Barbarian, Healer, Mentalist, Thief, Martial Artist, Paladin etc and in whatever weapons/skills you wanted.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
All of those shortcoming you listed have been dealt with in different MMORPG's. Those issue are problems of the past.
You are right they have been solved, I told you how they solved it. Via instances and small servers so that people could experience the content on their own. So yes those problems are in the past, yet you want to skip the solutions and go back to the past. Ummmm dont you think the same exact problems will be there?
Tell me 1 single OPEN WORLD (no instances or individual customized small servers) MMORPG that has effectively dealt with kill steals, guilds dominating all the top world bosses, or rare mob stealing?
I am interested what solutions you are even talking about here.
FFXIV added a solo instance "In from the Cold" in the Endwalker expansion. This introduced several of the characteristics talked about in the OP's post - work it out for yourself - no hand held guidance - a mistake punishable by death/instance failure and so on.
Result? Pages and pages of forum complaints. Threats to quit the game if it wasn't dumbed down. One forum complaint about it (linked here) ran to over 55 pages.
Conclusion? A lot of people (not all) talk about a less supportive game, but don't really want one.
Outcome? Developers will run with the masses.
"In from the Cold" had several issues, it was tedious, it was waaaaaaay too long, it was mandatory, and it was and still is bugged to high heaven. (Keypresses are not correctly filtered during the ATE so if you hit a keybind it's firing).
While you're supposed to "lose" there's still a fail condition with the ATE and if that happens you have to trudge through that super-unfun instance AGAIN.
People did not hate it because it was hard. People hated it because it wasn't fun.
FFXIV added a solo instance "In from the Cold" in the Endwalker expansion. This introduced several of the characteristics talked about in the OP's post - work it out for yourself - no hand held guidance - a mistake punishable by death/instance failure and so on.
Result? Pages and pages of forum complaints. Threats to quit the game if it wasn't dumbed down. One forum complaint about it (linked here) ran to over 55 pages.
Conclusion? A lot of people (not all) talk about a less supportive game, but don't really want one.
Outcome? Developers will run with the masses.
This is probably not the game for those kind of things. You can't just "tack it on" to a game that is built to be sort of the opposite of what I'm talking about at its core. The audience itself isn't really right for it I think either.
But also, I hear it just wasn't done very well anyway too, as Cogohi said.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Brainy said: You are right they have been solved, I told you how they solved it. Via instances and small servers so that people could experience the content on their own. So yes those problems are in the past, yet you want to skip the solutions and go back to the past. Ummmm dont you think the same exact problems will be there?
Tell me 1 single OPEN WORLD (no instances or individual customized small servers) MMORPG that has effectively dealt with kill steals, guilds dominating all the top world bosses, or rare mob stealing?
I am interested what solutions you are even talking about here.
I'm not quite sure I understand... ALL open world MMORPG's to an extent have dealt with this without instancing?
Some of these things are just part of having an open world too, and never were a problem anyway. For the early ones, some of it was just a problem in the initial design, there were problems with the game design itself (they just didn't consider that it could be a problem! Like training to zone. But later MMORPG's just built the game so it wouldn't be an issue). You can easily tune the game so most of these things aren't an issue.
WoW didn't really care much about having a cohesive open world. They just wanted more and more quality of life features...
It allowed people to have any/all content at the click of a button with no interruptions, but at a cost of no living breathing world and no surprises, or a severe lack of.
WoW was a themepark and there was always this progression where everyone knew what dungeons there were at what level and where they were etc. The typical trodden path. Also it had so much success, along with this obvious path of progression, that there were tons of people in each server without a big enough world/content to house them! So the result is you would see a billion people trying to get into a dungeon, there was basically no content left. For them, they didn't want to scale the servers themselves, and probably due to all the quality of life they wanted, they thought instancing might be a solid solution.
MMORPG's became commercial and people played them like a single player RPG too. They wanted the best of both worlds. Insta-content with no interruptions. Unfortunately it kind of meant the vast majority never got to experience and understand what you lose by adding in instancing and all the quality of life changes.
What would be much better is create a world big enough with enough variety (relative to the server population cap) to house everyone and leave tons of room for exploration, so the things you mentioned are just not an issue. More like a modern survival game but on much bigger scale.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
I was playing an MMORPG in 1996 where if you died in a bosses lair, your gear would be stripped and thrown randomly around the lair. You would actually lose a constitution point semi-permanantly and lose maximum hp if it was a beast that could "eat" you like a dragon. If you can't get your gear... literally bye gear.
Its mechanics like this is probably why the game is completely unknown to most people. I was playing video games back then and I have no clue what game you are even talking about.
You assume way too much. Sure, the game did have a very very very small playerbase compared to todays numbers...
Why you ask?
Is it because people didn't like the thrill of having risk in their MMO?
No.
It was because in 1996 barely anyone had the internet and didn't even know a game like this was even possible. Most people didn't even have PC's let alone the internet. Also, most people who did have a PC and the internet had to pay by the minute for their internet.
The game was a MUD with a 2D frontend and it was tick-based. It was a super cool game way ahead of its time in many areas.
It was basically a sandbox where it had: -Raids, solo or group content (but it was split just because it was tuned for different difficulties, meaning sometimes you just HAD to have a group or raid, unless you were a complete beast.
-Had PvP but really just because it openly allowed attacking others if you felt like it (though you become an outsider because you would lose repuation with town NPC's, they would attack you in towns and you couldn't use shops and such, it was basically possible, but heavily discouraged, so people wouldn't really do it, PvE was very much the focus).
-No map, which was super cool actually because it felt like you were exploring unknown areas all the time (in fact, sometimes you literally were, sometimes you found places no one ever knew about in the entire game). Some of the dungeons were HUGE with many different levels (going deeper) and makes WoW's dungeons look like pathetic little minigames.
-There were multiple different continents all that had a variety of difficulty, each one had easy-hard content so you would go back and forth for different content.
-And more.
Amusingly, the scope of this game was way larger than many games out there right now.
I guess one of the closer games to it would be like UO. But imagine one that wasn't quite as sandbox in the sense it was mainly all about exploration and combat. Their own take on Dungeons and Dragons pretty much, with a huge open world, and your character had a race (human, elf, dwarf, halfling etc), had stats that you rolled on character creation (str, agi, con, wis, int, char etc), you would then train after character creation to be a Fighter, Barbarian, Healer, Mentalist, Thief, Martial Artist, Paladin etc and in whatever weapons/skills you wanted.
Nah I am just not naive and think going back to an open world where people can kill steal, harass other players, train mobs on people, top guilds beating down 99% of everyones content etc... is going to fly in today's world.
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also.
People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
All of those shortcoming you listed have been dealt with in different MMORPG's. Those issue are problems of the past.
You are right they have been solved, I told you how they solved it. Via instances and small servers so that people could experience the content on their own. So yes those problems are in the past, yet you want to skip the solutions and go back to the past. Ummmm dont you think the same exact problems will be there?
Tell me 1 single OPEN WORLD (no instances or individual customized small servers) MMORPG that has effectively dealt with kill steals, guilds dominating all the top world bosses, or rare mob stealing?
I am interested what solutions you are even talking about here.
EVE Online ..... None of those are considered to be "problems," they are sanctioned game play....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A list of reasons to not play Eve? Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down? That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want. Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
That was a post about a specific Event. It says nothing about the rest of the game and its design. Any specific things about game play is going to depend on how the game is designed.
The thing is, you know what kind of game design I want, and what the goals are as far as socialization, less division by design, Sandbox, AI, and overall game play. You've read my posts, made comment, liked, and argued about, my posts for years. So how the hell can you say that you wonder if I know what I want?
In your previous post(s) you listed a number of features in a specific scenario you thought would be great.
I pointed out EVE literally offered every single feature including the scenario itself, player withdrawl from an invincible assault on their city and you said EVE offered nothing you wanted despite my examples / evidence to the contrary that it had equivalent for everything.
There wasn't time to address every single feature you wanted but I didn't see anything in your scenario, assassin's, healers, logically lead strategic withdrawl, etc. which wasn't offered today in EVE...yet..you rejected it....I guess because....
The one big difference....EVE uses players to pull everything off, but you and others are only OK if the devs code it artificially.... presumably so you can always win?
I highlighted the important points. I said "Eve has NOTHING else of what I want."
That's why I don't play Eve.
I also pointed out the part about the PvPer's actions of infiltration, and you pointed out that it's handled by the Eve players well. Great. But those are PvPers, hardcore. My point is that other Gamers aren't going to accept that. It's a cheat. There is no way to prevent it from inside the game, and it comes from outside the game. Just because hardcore PvPers accept it doesn't change that. I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" with it, just that only hardcore PvPers will accept it. Or other PvPers who enjoy their friendships with said hardcore players, I guess.
Spying is nothing new. It's in every PvP enabled game. It was in UO way back when, too. It was just one of many tactics PKers used to spy out targets, and call in their PKers friends. It's a trap and there is nothing Gamers can do about it, except not play the game. It causes distrust among Gamers, and breaks down social mechanics. It's harmful to MMORPGs.
No, I do not want "always win." Again, you've read my posts for years. I want a more challenging game play. You should know this.
Comments
Its mechanics like this is probably why the game is completely unknown to most people. I was playing video games back then and I have no clue what game you are even talking about.
Eve has NOTHING else of what I want.
And how about that famous situation where one of the most powerful Guilds took down another? Where Players infiltrated the other guild and set them up for the take down?
That's exactly the kind of thing most Gamers don't want.
Spying in another guild is the easiest thing there is to do. How can they possibly know who's a spy? Sure, it took them a long time to gain trust. So what. It was unplayable for that guild.
Once upon a time....
They need enhanced, naturally. Greatly enhanced, at this point.
Once upon a time....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A large open world will not prevent that.
Just a tiny bit of social awareness would tell you the mass majority of people don't want those mechanics. What you describe are the negative aspects of some games in the past that most people don't like. People play games for fun. They don't play them to be griefed.
I am all for an open world, but for the most desired and rare/boss mobs/content people need their own instances so they can experience that content also. People don't want others to control their fun, not sure why you can't understand that. This is the exact reason games with mostly instances were created because of that demand.
I personally think the new games went too far with personalized experience. But I am also aware that a completely lawless world is on the other extreme.
Not sure what rock you been hiding under, but just reading chat in most games with these mechanics people constantly complain about it. Pull the head out of the sand.
So please explain how a large open world will solve the issues I stated above.
In most every case the corp pulls itself back together and ventures forward to greater stories and glory...
You literally named nothing which EVE doesn't already provide in your examples which makes me question whether or not you really are sure what you are seeking.
Or is it only if Devs code the npc's so you always can win?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But in the prior provided context of zones being pushed back and forth in control and mobs being able to take over towns? Bit of a wrench.
The more dynamic/flexible a world space is, the more responsive the scaling of content needs to be as well.
The thing is, you know what kind of game design I want, and what the goals are as far as socialization, less division by design, Sandbox, AI, and overall game play. You've read my posts, made comment, liked, and argued about, my posts for years.
So how the hell can you say that you wonder if I know what I want?
Once upon a time....
Where do you get these ideas?
I do not want those things.
Pull your own head out of the "same old" crapola and consider that there are ways to handle all of that.
I swear, you guys claim you want better MMORPGs, but you are so fixated on the current ways that you can't even open your minds to other possibilities.
Assume-the-worst is your go-to argument?
Once upon a time....
If they deliver the game world you are asking for, most of the problems I stated will exist. You can dream all you want to until reality slams into your face.
I pointed out EVE literally offered every single feature including the scenario itself, player withdrawl from an invincible assault on their city and you said EVE offered nothing you wanted despite my examples / evidence to the contrary that it had equivalent for everything.
There wasn't time to address every single feature you wanted but I didn't see anything in your scenario, assassin's, healers, logically lead strategic withdrawl, etc. which wasn't offered today in EVE...yet..you rejected it....I guess because....
The one big difference....EVE uses players to pull everything off, but you and others are only OK if the devs code it artificially.... presumably so you can always win?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No.
-Raids, solo or group content (but it was split just because it was tuned for different difficulties, meaning sometimes you just HAD to have a group or raid, unless you were a complete beast.
FFXIV added a solo instance "In from the Cold" in the Endwalker expansion. This introduced several of the characteristics talked about in the OP's post - work it out for yourself - no hand held guidance - a mistake punishable by death/instance failure and so on.
Result? Pages and pages of forum complaints. Threats to quit the game if it wasn't dumbed down. One forum complaint about it (linked here) ran to over 55 pages.
Conclusion? A lot of people (not all) talk about a less supportive game, but don't really want one.
Outcome? Developers will run with the masses.
You are right they have been solved, I told you how they solved it. Via instances and small servers so that people could experience the content on their own. So yes those problems are in the past, yet you want to skip the solutions and go back to the past. Ummmm dont you think the same exact problems will be there?
Tell me 1 single OPEN WORLD (no instances or individual customized small servers) MMORPG that has effectively dealt with kill steals, guilds dominating all the top world bosses, or rare mob stealing?
I am interested what solutions you are even talking about here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I said "Eve has NOTHING else of what I want."
That's why I don't play Eve.
I also pointed out the part about the PvPer's actions of infiltration, and you pointed out that it's handled by the Eve players well.
Great.
But those are PvPers, hardcore. My point is that other Gamers aren't going to accept that.
It's a cheat. There is no way to prevent it from inside the game, and it comes from outside the game.
Just because hardcore PvPers accept it doesn't change that.
I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" with it, just that only hardcore PvPers will accept it. Or other PvPers who enjoy their friendships with said hardcore players, I guess.
Spying is nothing new. It's in every PvP enabled game. It was in UO way back when, too. It was just one of many tactics PKers used to spy out targets, and call in their PKers friends. It's a trap and there is nothing Gamers can do about it, except not play the game. It causes distrust among Gamers, and breaks down social mechanics.
It's harmful to MMORPGs.
No, I do not want "always win."
Again, you've read my posts for years.
I want a more challenging game play. You should know this.
Once upon a time....