.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
But the weird thing about it is that you're selling power but only for the top end. Since every 10 rolls you're guaranteed a 4 star and 4 star characters at eidolon 6 are much better in most cases than a 5 star at one, it's just a matter of time to pick up a fully geared 4 star character.
It's just a silly thought process people have that 5 stars are always somehow better. And because the game isn't competitive there's no reason to buy power unless you're completely impatient.
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
It is monetizing through selling power, or even more specific, a chance of power. Yes, I think it sucks, no I don’t consider it different at all. It is a way to extract money from players, it is just using different tools to get the job done then our good old games. At least here you can actually experience the game without spending a dime, we didn’t have that ‘luxury’ back then.
Pretending this is about something else is what sounds silly and irrelevant to me, all of it is about separating players from their money, it always has been, we are just more offended by method A then we are by method B. All the more reason to compare them and find out why that is. For me it is the gambling aspect that gatcha brings for instance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
It is monetizing through selling power, or even more specific, a chance of power. Yes, I think it sucks, no I don’t consider it different at all. It is a way to extract money from players, it is just using different tools to get the job done then our good old games. At least here you can actually experience the game without spending a dime, we didn’t have that ‘luxury’ back then.
Pretending this is about something else is what sounds silly and irrelevant to me, all of it is about separating players from their money, it always has been, we are just more offended by method A then we are by method B. All the more reason to compare them and find out why that is. For me it is the gambling aspect that gatcha brings for instance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
So pay to win is simply another way to monetize, no better nor worse than any other? Is that what I hear you saying?
Diablo Immortal is just another Diablo game except monetized differently and you're lucky enough to play it for free, right?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
It is monetizing through selling power, or even more specific, a chance of power. Yes, I think it sucks, no I don’t consider it different at all. It is a way to extract money from players, it is just using different tools to get the job done then our good old games. At least here you can actually experience the game without spending a dime, we didn’t have that ‘luxury’ back then.
Pretending this is about something else is what sounds silly and irrelevant to me, all of it is about separating players from their money, it always has been, we are just more offended by method A then we are by method B. All the more reason to compare them and find out why that is. For me it is the gambling aspect that gatcha brings for instance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
So pay to win is simply another way to monetize, no better nor worse than any other? Is that what I hear you saying?
Diablo Immortal is just another Diablo game except monetized differently and you're lucky enough to play it for free, right?
Whoah, I think the MMORPG.com family Sheep may have been chewing the wrong kind of grass today?
Any way they take your money is the same? For the studios it is, but not for us. P2W is the worst aspect of modern cash shops it distorts gameplay more than any other "money extraction" method. For me the gambling is the second worst form of the cash shop "experience" and of course they love to combine the two if they can.
P.S. I wish I knew what the secret picture code that some posters are using means? Here I am stuck with using plain old words.
I am not going that far I am talking merely about the one where you use RNG with resources to upgrade gear or skills. I am talking only in terms of Undecember where you can earn it in game. Where you use a pity system. I am not talking about hidden percentages and other aspects used in some mobile games.
Diablo Immortal way is totally off that isn't at all in the same ballpark.
However I do strongly believe that camping for hours and hours and this has actually happened to me in Everquest where I never obtained a robe in 3 months of camping. That's bad and a waste of my time. I prefer the system where you can upgrade gear by spending time or resources you gather.
Everything has grades. Gacha is not completely bad unless the odds are horrendous because comparably the Everquest camping for gear wasted a lot of time. I'd rather not do that any more.
All these systems have grades and they are not all black and white. There can be systems I have realised that are way better than sitting in one spot pulling and killing for hours hoping this time the items drops and you win the roll. That's equally horrible in my book. It should never be this punishing to upgrade your gear nor am I saying buying you way to power is the way.
I feel RNG like using resources you farm and relying on chance isn't that different from the example above.
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
It is monetizing through selling power, or even more specific, a chance of power. Yes, I think it sucks, no I don’t consider it different at all. It is a way to extract money from players, it is just using different tools to get the job done then our good old games. At least here you can actually experience the game without spending a dime, we didn’t have that ‘luxury’ back then.
Pretending this is about something else is what sounds silly and irrelevant to me, all of it is about separating players from their money, it always has been, we are just more offended by method A then we are by method B. All the more reason to compare them and find out why that is. For me it is the gambling aspect that gatcha brings for instance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
So pay to win is simply another way to monetize, no better nor worse than any other? Is that what I hear you saying?
Diablo Immortal is just another Diablo game except monetized differently and you're lucky enough to play it for free, right?
That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying all of it is monetizing, just in different ways. I could even argue that box and sub is the most horrible way of monetizing since you have to pay, again, and again, and again to even access the game, the game you already bought.
When it comes to topics like crypto, gatcha (and several others) it seems like all nuance gets thrown overboard and is being replaced with selective outrage. Using your own post as an example, you reply to a post specifically stating ‘I think it sucks’ with what you just wrote. I think that’s a shame. I also think it makes discussing various topics rather difficult.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I am not going that far I am talking merely about the one where you use RNG with resources to upgrade gear or skills. I am talking only in terms of Undecember where you can earn it in game. Where you use a pity system. I am not talking about hidden percentages and other aspects used in some mobile games.
Diablo Immortal way is totally off that isn't at all in the same ballpark.
I think for me the line that makes some pay for QOL or pay for advantage tolerable is when it's 100% optional. When you just can not progress your character in a game to the same extent as those who pay, which is the case in Diablo Immortal and Gacha games, Is where I draw the line.
I see a difference between games like Path of Exile where you pay for stash space or games that sell XP potions because as convenient as those are the game can be played without it and if you pay for the leveling speed or inventory space or whatever, that won't produce a more powerful character than someone's who didn't pay.
As soon as you start monetizing power as the only way to be that powerful a line is crossed that undermines the integrity of a game whether you're competing against others or just against your own capabilities in a single-player game.
IMO there's a fundamental; difference when that line is crossed. So fundamental that I have a hard time considering them real games. They're like this other thing that can do a very good job of imitating gaming, but without the basic, even playing field they really aren't.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I am not going that far I am talking merely about the one where you use RNG with resources to upgrade gear or skills. I am talking only in terms of Undecember where you can earn it in game. Where you use a pity system. I am not talking about hidden percentages and other aspects used in some mobile games.
Diablo Immortal way is totally off that isn't at all in the same ballpark.
However I do strongly believe that camping for hours and hours and this has actually happened to me in Everquest where I never obtained a robe in 3 months of camping. That's bad and a waste of my time. I prefer the system where you can upgrade gear by spending time or resources you gather.
Everything has grades. Gacha is not completely bad unless the odds are horrendous because comparably the Everquest camping for gear wasted a lot of time. I'd rather not do that any more.
All these systems have grades and they are not all black and white. There can be systems I have realised that are way better than sitting in one spot pulling and killing for hours hoping this time the items drops and you win the roll. That's equally horrible in my book. It should never be this punishing to upgrade your gear nor am I saying buying you way to power is the way.
I feel RNG like using resources you farm and relying on chance isn't that different from the example above.
Two things though, firstly there are other ways of solving camping than buying in a cash shop. Layers or whatever you call them are already used, not a fan of them but it solves your issue. Secondly what you say about problematic systems like Gatcha would be true if there was not one direction of travel, to getting worse. But there is only one way any such system goes, we are not going to see fairer Gatcha systems next year and even better ones the year after that.
Gacha can't really be equated to 'camping things for months' for a multitude of reasons. One difference for example is that many 'power banners' are limited time (like Seele for now), so you only have 2 weeks to pull for the 'main attraction' and then its usually go around 6 months. In a 'regular' game, you can camp whatever it is you're after for however long it takes. If you're not able to get the item you want during that 2 week window, aren't you still waiting for months?
Another importance difference is that you usually need to obtain duplicates in order to make it stronger, whereas in most other games (aside from wow's war/titanforging phase), you're kind of done after you get it.
One important thing to keep in mind that every unit in any starting gacha game is usually viable for a while. I mean this game can't even be compared to Genshin simply because Genshin is a more skill-based game and sadly this is just rock-paper-scissors. You can probably build endurance and outlast a tough enemy in this game, but more comps are viable in genshin simply because you can dodge etc.
Gacha will always be abut mindset over anything though simply because they design their content around fomo and people's tolerance. If you're someone who is f2p and unlucky, then more-than-likely future content will be harder for you to clear. And since most new content will have upgrade resources/premium currency/etc associated with it, you'll end up progressing slower. For the most part though, things do level off for a few months (characters' upgrades usually hit walls until new systems are implemented).
In the end, most gacha games are just glorified slot-machines that you can play for free but can also be bottomless-pits for money. Regardless of any of that, its always going to be about a person's enjoyment at the end of the day. Some people like trying to game systems like these to see if they can reach the same points as people who invest hundreds/thousands in these kinds of games. Everyone has their own thoughts about gambling, but it doesn't really change what it is at the end of the day.
I am not talking about buying in the cash shop at all but just gacha of the items you have from farming in game.
So we're talking about 2 different things.
I'm aware of the Gacha mechanics and how you get free pulls in those games. It's very similar to loot boxes and the freebies you get in games that have them (keys in GW2, twitch drops and daily rewards a couple of times per month in ESO, free card packs in Fifa, etc.)
That is also a scummy gambling system but I'm not focused on the mechanics. As bad as I think loot boxes are, they do not necessarily have to also be P2Win and a lot of games use them for cosmetics and convenience only, not power.
Gacha mobile games in particular though, do use that gambling system for power and that's what makes them P2Win.
Crossing that line was essentially what all the fuss was about with EA and Star Wars Battlefront 2. It wasn't that they had loot boxes but that what you could get in them gave you power and heroes (Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker among them) that were more powerful.
As it happens my dislike of blockchain and crypto games as a whole has nothing to do with the currency or the tech. That to me is also all about the built-in Entropia-Universe-like P2Win items for currency trading.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I am confusing gacha and RNG systems. If gacha is time limited then not the same.
I dont think we should be attacking or defending anything in regards to gacha, just educating simply because many people do not know about gacha games and what can turn them into 'money traps' for many people. If everyone is having fun, then just keep having fun. I just dont personally like them because I'm someone who is bound by time investment, so games like these end up being bad for me the more time I spend with them.
I am talking about what they have in Undecember I thought that was gacha but I may be wrong. I can buy random boxes with in game currency I can earn that gives me items for crafting. You can pay for them in real money by exchanging it for game currency but so far I only used what I farmed myself.
There is no time limit or anything. There is also the use of resources to roll for prefixes and suffixes with them on your gear which can be bought on the AH which uses rubies you can buy with real money but I have not used that either. Then there is the skill runes that have 6 sides which you also roll for by RNG with a pity system. You can also craft the rarer runes. All this uses RNG.
Sorry there are battle passes that have time limits but that is another thing entirely right.
I think I am confusing all the systems and calling it gacha. Okay I'm done and bowing out.
.... because its monetizing doesn’t sit well with you for ‘reason X.’
It's not monetization in general it's selling power period.
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
But the weird thing about it is that you're selling power but only for the top end. Since every 10 rolls you're guaranteed a 4 star and 4 star characters at eidolon 6 are much better in most cases than a 5 star at one, it's just a matter of time to pick up a fully geared 4 star character.
It's just a silly thought process people have that 5 stars are always somehow better. And because the game isn't competitive there's no reason to buy power unless you're completely impatient.
The thing with gatcha games is while it true often a maxed out lower star character will be better than a 5 star 1 card character sometimes this isn't true sometimes, some 5 stars are beastly with only one copy.
Be that as it may however most people pay for power and if they go for a 5 start character on a banner they usually have in mind to get several copies of it so they can max it out to where its far better than a maxed out 4 star.
Most guides reflect this or if you watch youtube guides more often than not they involve maxed one or more maxed out 5 stars.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I am talking about what they have in Undecember I thought that was gacha but I may be wrong. I can buy random boxes with in game currency I can earn that gives me items for crafting. You can pay for them in real money by exchanging it for game currency but so far I only used what I farmed myself.
There is no time limit or anything. There is also the use of resources to roll for prefixes and suffixes with them on your gear which can be bought on the AH which uses rubies you can buy with real money but I have not used that either. Then there is the skill runes that have 6 sides which you also roll for by RNG with a pity system. You can also craft the rarer runes. All this uses RNG.
Sorry there are battle passes that have time limits but that is another thing entirely right.
I think I am confusing all the systems and calling it gacha. Okay I'm done and bowing out.
Yeah those are honestly completely different. Gacha builds around fomo. They will advertise exclusive power gains during a specific window that usually cannot be obtained outside of that period and put them on a rotation. Its kind of like imagining you have a two week period to get an exclusive trinket before its removed from the game (in terms of being able to obtain it) and then it may come back in 6 months.
I am talking about what they have in Undecember I thought that was gacha but I may be wrong. I can buy random boxes with in game currency I can earn that gives me items for crafting. You can pay for them in real money by exchanging it for game currency but so far I only used what I farmed myself.
There is no time limit or anything. There is also the use of resources to roll for prefixes and suffixes with them on your gear which can be bought on the AH which uses rubies you can buy with real money but I have not used that either. Then there is the skill runes that have 6 sides which you also roll for by RNG with a pity system. You can also craft the rarer runes. All this uses RNG.
Sorry there are battle passes that have time limits but that is another thing entirely right.
I think I am confusing all the systems and calling it gacha. Okay I'm done and bowing out.
Yeah those are honestly completely different. Gacha builds around fomo. They will advertise exclusive power gains during a specific window that usually cannot be obtained outside of that period and put them on a rotation. Its kind of like imagining you have a two week period to get an exclusive trinket before its removed from the game (in terms of being able to obtain it) and then it may come back in 6 months.
That's simply not always true, despite many gacha working like that. For example, the characters that were among the best in Genshin two years ago are still considered of the same tier nowadays. That includes several 4 stars that still sit in the S and SS categories. The only thing that new banners changed is that they added more characters to each of those power categories, without making the previous ones obsolete. The attractive of the new ones is that they may have a slightly different gameplay, and of course their design, and not that they're more powerful than what there's already available. It's basically "skins" that give you new animations, etc., if one thinks about it. Moreover, when there has been any event that required you to maybe use certain characters to complete it, the game provided them for you to pick them in case that you didn't have them (or didn't level them) so that you could use them on that specific instance.
I can consider this kind of gacha certainly benign, as far as it not being worse than other F2P games that sell XP potions/buffs or inventory expansions (which actually affect the speed at which one progresses, either by levelling faster or by not having to spend as much time organizing the inventory, or by being able to get more money/resources faster thanks to the additional carry space). For context, I should clarify that I don't like nor support XP buffs or inventory expansions, and I think that the best F2P models should only sell cosmetics. Also, as I reminder, I prefer fully fledged paid games over F2P ones. And, as I said several times earlier, I don't like gacha in general either. But this game, when considering the pros and cons (and not just the cons, especially if one bases them on other games), is certainly an 8.
Anyway, this is why several people here have said repeatedly that focusing only on the monetization model, and not looking at the exact case that this game represents, is not a proper way to judge if the game is good or bad. I don't like gacha, as I've repeated several times, but I've been having fun for several tens of hours already playing this game without feeling that they're forcing me to pay anything, which is something that I can't say about other F2P games (not limited to gacha ones). I had the same experience in Genshin Impact, despite not enjoying the story and characters (story wise) as mush as I enjoy the ones in HSR, so being similar games made by the same company I expect that it will work the same way on the long run, including the tons of additional free content added over time.
That being said, what matters the most RIGHT NOW is that the game is perfectly playable and enjoyable on this 1.0 version without the gacha detracting anything from it. Judging a game by what it might do wrong in the future doesn't sit well in my eyes.
Can you ignore the gacha or is the game very difficult without it?
I explained this in more detail on my other posts, but it's currently playable and ejoyable without paying a cent. My party consists of 3 free characters and another one that I got for free from the gacha, and I'm doing well. I have several other (better) characters to pick, but I'm doing good with this party that would considered mid tier. If you build your party and characters well, and use the mechanics properly, you shouldn't have any problem.
Can you ignore the gacha or is the game very difficult without it?
Usually it depends on the gacha game, if you are less skillful you prob need help from gacha power so to speak and while some games are playable with free characters its usually not quite as easy mode and requires lots of grind.
Frankly I got tired of geshin impact cause farming to upgrade even free characters was a huge PITA as some thing can only be farmed on some days and there were restrictions like that.
Another thing is lots of these gacha games not only have "paid characters" from time limited banners but also have upgrade weapon or items from banners too.
For Genshin Impact you could kind of farm stuff to roll on banners but I found it long, tedious and onerous to do so and frankly preferred Tower of Fantasy overall on those aspects.
This game looks interesting but frankly I'm kinda gacha out right now and rather play game on my VR headset atm.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Comments
That is such a messed up thing to do in gaming that I have a very hard time having any respect whatsoever for games that do it and it's a real head-scratcher for me that any serious gamer is willing to handwave away that one enormous detail.
Comparisons about how game x did this mean thing 20 years ago or does this other mean thing now sound silly and irrelevant to me when we're talking about something as fundamentally wrong as selling power.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's just a silly thought process people have that 5 stars are always somehow better. And because the game isn't competitive there's no reason to buy power unless you're completely impatient.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Sorry. xD
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
Diablo Immortal is just another Diablo game except monetized differently and you're lucky enough to play it for free, right?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Any way they take your money is the same? For the studios it is, but not for us. P2W is the worst aspect of modern cash shops it distorts gameplay more than any other "money extraction" method. For me the gambling is the second worst form of the cash shop "experience" and of course they love to combine the two if they can.
P.S. I wish I knew what the secret picture code that some posters are using means? Here I am stuck with using plain old words.
Diablo Immortal way is totally off that isn't at all in the same ballpark.
However I do strongly believe that camping for hours and hours and this has actually happened to me in Everquest where I never obtained a robe in 3 months of camping. That's bad and a waste of my time. I prefer the system where you can upgrade gear by spending time or resources you gather.
Everything has grades. Gacha is not completely bad unless the odds are horrendous because comparably the Everquest camping for gear wasted a lot of time. I'd rather not do that any more.
All these systems have grades and they are not all black and white. There can be systems I have realised that are way better than sitting in one spot pulling and killing for hours hoping this time the items drops and you win the roll. That's equally horrible in my book. It should never be this punishing to upgrade your gear nor am I saying buying you way to power is the way.
I feel RNG like using resources you farm and relying on chance isn't that different from the example above.
When it comes to topics like crypto, gatcha (and several others) it seems like all nuance gets thrown overboard and is being replaced with selective outrage. Using your own post as an example, you reply to a post specifically stating ‘I think it sucks’ with what you just wrote. I think that’s a shame. I also think it makes discussing various topics rather difficult.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I see a difference between games like Path of Exile where you pay for stash space or games that sell XP potions because as convenient as those are the game can be played without it and if you pay for the leveling speed or inventory space or whatever, that won't produce a more powerful character than someone's who didn't pay.
As soon as you start monetizing power as the only way to be that powerful a line is crossed that undermines the integrity of a game whether you're competing against others or just against your own capabilities in a single-player game.
IMO there's a fundamental; difference when that line is crossed. So fundamental that I have a hard time considering them real games. They're like this other thing that can do a very good job of imitating gaming, but without the basic, even playing field they really aren't.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm aware of the Gacha mechanics and how you get free pulls in those games. It's very similar to loot boxes and the freebies you get in games that have them (keys in GW2, twitch drops and daily rewards a couple of times per month in ESO, free card packs in Fifa, etc.)
That is also a scummy gambling system but I'm not focused on the mechanics. As bad as I think loot boxes are, they do not necessarily have to also be P2Win and a lot of games use them for cosmetics and convenience only, not power.
Gacha mobile games in particular though, do use that gambling system for power and that's what makes them P2Win.
Crossing that line was essentially what all the fuss was about with EA and Star Wars Battlefront 2. It wasn't that they had loot boxes but that what you could get in them gave you power and heroes (Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker among them) that were more powerful.
As it happens my dislike of blockchain and crypto games as a whole has nothing to do with the currency or the tech. That to me is also all about the built-in Entropia-Universe-like P2Win items for currency trading.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I dont think we should be attacking or defending anything in regards to gacha, just educating simply because many people do not know about gacha games and what can turn them into 'money traps' for many people. If everyone is having fun, then just keep having fun. I just dont personally like them because I'm someone who is bound by time investment, so games like these end up being bad for me the more time I spend with them.
There is no time limit or anything. There is also the use of resources to roll for prefixes and suffixes with them on your gear which can be bought on the AH which uses rubies you can buy with real money but I have not used that either. Then there is the skill runes that have 6 sides which you also roll for by RNG with a pity system. You can also craft the rarer runes. All this uses RNG.
Sorry there are battle passes that have time limits but that is another thing entirely right.
I think I am confusing all the systems and calling it gacha. Okay I'm done and bowing out.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Yeah those are honestly completely different. Gacha builds around fomo. They will advertise exclusive power gains during a specific window that usually cannot be obtained outside of that period and put them on a rotation. Its kind of like imagining you have a two week period to get an exclusive trinket before its removed from the game (in terms of being able to obtain it) and then it may come back in 6 months.
I can consider this kind of gacha certainly benign, as far as it not being worse than other F2P games that sell XP potions/buffs or inventory expansions (which actually affect the speed at which one progresses, either by levelling faster or by not having to spend as much time organizing the inventory, or by being able to get more money/resources faster thanks to the additional carry space). For context, I should clarify that I don't like nor support XP buffs or inventory expansions, and I think that the best F2P models should only sell cosmetics. Also, as I reminder, I prefer fully fledged paid games over F2P ones. And, as I said several times earlier, I don't like gacha in general either. But this game, when considering the pros and cons (and not just the cons, especially if one bases them on other games), is certainly an 8.
Anyway, this is why several people here have said repeatedly that focusing only on the monetization model, and not looking at the exact case that this game represents, is not a proper way to judge if the game is good or bad. I don't like gacha, as I've repeated several times, but I've been having fun for several tens of hours already playing this game without feeling that they're forcing me to pay anything, which is something that I can't say about other F2P games (not limited to gacha ones). I had the same experience in Genshin Impact, despite not enjoying the story and characters (story wise) as mush as I enjoy the ones in HSR, so being similar games made by the same company I expect that it will work the same way on the long run, including the tons of additional free content added over time.
That being said, what matters the most RIGHT NOW is that the game is perfectly playable and enjoyable on this 1.0 version without the gacha detracting anything from it. Judging a game by what it might do wrong in the future doesn't sit well in my eyes.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.