Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems

System · May 2023

Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems Ever Built' | MMORPG.com

The latest Camelot Unchained newsletter provides intriguing insights into some major updates and improvements in the game's movement and encumbrance systems, the development of its AI.

Read the full story here

OG_Solareus · May 2023

mhm

BrotherMaynard · May 2023

Pathfinding and coded hierarchical behavour are not exactly AI, especially the latter - at least not in the current understanding of the term. Otherwise Westwood could claim revolutionary AI with their 1993 Dune 2. And several studios before them.

'Yeah, guys, all these years of silence and concept art - that was us buying up all Nvidia's DGXs and single-handedly pushing AI beyond anything this world has ever dreamed of'. Pathetic.

Looks like Jacobs has caught his own FOMO fever and after missing out on the blockchain and NFT craze he sure as hell won't miss out on the current one. Label any old piece of code that has been used in this industry since 1980s as 'advanced AI', because that's what investors want to hear these days.

OldKingLog · May 2023

Oh look the techturds have found their next near meaningless buzzword! Camelot Unchained is also 100% gluten free! *sigh*

Scot · May 2023

Maybe once the AI system is developed they could lease it to Redfall?

Viper482 · May 2023

It's laughable at this point. So the next 100 monthly newsletters will be all about AI I'm sure, meanwhile the game is still in pre-alp.....oh wait they call it beta now.

waveslayer · May 2023

OK Mark, thats cool and all but how long is this new powerfull AI going to take to get game ready? and will this AI still be cutting edge when the game is released?

All I really want to see is someone take DAoC and remake it with updated graphics and ability systems, that IMHO would be a money maker

DigDuggy · May 2023

This falls into the Star Citizen category. The infinity development paradigm. When it finishes, I'll look. Until then, to look into the vortex leads to madness.

olepi · May 2023

Up next, an AI powered blockchain survival game with NFT's.

Slapshot1188 · May 2023

The game was supposed to the PvP centered with no PvE progression. Great AI is of course good even for limited PvE but it’s a sidebar to what was supposed to be the real game.

Foundational Principle #2 – RvR isn’t the end game, it’s the only game!

CU is a TriRealm™, RvR-focused game. It is not an RvR-centric game like Dark Age of Camelot and it is certainly not a “just bolt on the RvR; that will work!” game like so many others. It is as pure an RvR game that I have ever worked on, plain and simple. Everything in this game is geared to the TriRealm concept, whether it is the crafting system, housing, skill progression, etc. You will explore, fight, capture, level, etc. all within a competitive RvR world that was crafted with this FP in mind.

“Hey Mr. Wizard! How about an example or two?” Sure, easily done. Let’s look at crafters for example. Our crafters will never have to worry about whether the gear that they make, the arrows that they fletch nor the ring that they forged in the fires of Mount Doom…, whoops, wrong game, sorry, being eclipsed by something that is dropped by a hummingbird, even if it is the “WORLD’S LARGEST HUMMINGBIRD THAT SHOOTS LASER BEAMS FROM ITS EYES.” The best way to accomplish this is to ensure that there are no drops of powerful items from NPCs. Secondly, to make sure that the first point is followed, let’s just say that there are no NPC drops at all and damn few NPCs. That’s right, as an RvR-focused game hummingbirds won’t be dropping rare and unique items; well, unless you consider bird poop rare and unique. You will get rewards for killing other players, other players’ helpers and some stuff in the world but it won’t be gear and we will also not offer tokens. Tokens are for subways and some pinball and arcade games, not for this game. I was and remain a fan of that type of system for a different game(s) but not for this game. I want my crafters to know that there is no chance that the stuff they are making can be eclipsed by anything dropped or buyable through the non-player shops with but one exception. That exception is if there are not enough crafters, we reserve the right to make sure that things like population imbalance do not end up in a cascading and insurmountable disaster for a realm.

Our progression systems will be based solely on the activities that you are participating in directly (“Die Die. Kill you all. Make you suffer!”) or (“Heal Heal. Heal you all. Make you whole!”) or simply by otherwise helping out in RvR, even if you aren’t very good at it. The reward/leveling systems are a lot more complicated than that and I’ll talk about them in a separate post entitled “Level me up Snotty” coming soon to this blog and man oh man, will that post stir up some interesting reactions. Know that I’m a fan of “You are what you do” gameplay as well as a class-based system for this kind of game so…

“One last question, an oldie but a goody. How are you going to break up the zergs that make RvR so much fun!” This is a more complicated one and frankly is the perfect example how I’ve told the team we have to approach RvR holistically (don’t even say it, I know what you are thinking) and not look for a silver bullet (or even arrow) to deal with that problem. Since RvR isn’t our endgame, the vast majority of the world’s map (sorry, I still believe in protecting freshly minted characters, so feel free to mock this choice) is going to be open, unlocked and available for your raiding, looting and RvRing pleasure. But that’s not enough, we will also have very, very limited fast travel options. Moreover, while having lots of extended CC abilities is a tad bit controversial, we will certainly have some CC (as well as resists and ways to clear the CC) so that smaller groups can have a better chance at dealing with larger groups. Having a rather large world map, almost no fast travel, and some CC abilities is a good start but we need even more and we’ll detail that in later blogs. Oh, and no “Pop goes the Arthurian.” When you die, and you will die; don’t expect to simply pop back up and get right back in the fight. It is going to be a lot more complicated than that. IMO, that gameplay style embodies some of the problems with many modern MMOs, death without consequence, “easy in” and “easy out” RvR, 6-year old kids’ soccer match, etc. RvR combat must be fun, challenging, exciting and losing must hurt a bit or it means nothing.

“Okay, I lied. How about another question? What if we don’t want to RvR that day but still want to have fun in the game?” Well, that is where housing, crafting and other systems will come into play. As a RvR-focused game, players will need all sorts of items and the crafters will have to supply them. Whether it is arrows, armor, gold for the mint, etc., there’s always going to be somebody who needs something and that’s where crafting comes in. And if you don’t feel like crafting, well, the housing/buildings system are waiting for you. And if that isn’t enough there will be RvR missions that you can undertake that won’t involve sacking a keep but could still involve some RvR (in an open world, not instanced, k thx bye) if you get unlucky. And if that is not enough, well, we will have some other things that you can do but we are an RvR-focused game and if you are not feeling it that night and nothing we have interests you, well, it’s time to take a break, just like any other game. I cannot promise you that CU will meet all your needs for an MMO. It cannot be all things to all people but it can be a great RvR-focused game with your help, feedback, support and involvement. If on some nights it isn’t what you are looking for, well, that’s okay, your realm’s enemies will be still waiting for you when you get back.

If you looking for a game that captures the spirit, challenge and excitement of RvR, you have come to the right place. Oh, did I forget to mention territorial control, RvR leaderboards, extremely limited “normal” instances (special events, special unlocks, etc.) and most importantly, getting to know and hate your enemies with a passion and being rewarded for doing so? And no Virginia, cross-realm characters on a server is a no-no and of course, we will have multiple servers but there is a Santa Claus N.O.ME., at least in March on Oz.

-Mark

tostane · May 2023

yawn

TheDalaiBomba · May 2023

Guys, I'm starting to think crowdfunding isn't the game development utopia it was made out to be.

mcrippins · May 2023

Would be nice if they just made a fun game instead.

cameltosis · May 2023

As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.

I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.

Slapshot1188 · May 2023

cameltosis said:

As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.

I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.

The AI seems more needed for his side game, Ragnarock or whatever it's called whch is a 100 percent PvE game.

Vrika · May 2023

BrotherMaynard said:

Pathfinding and coded hierarchical behavour are not exactly AI, especially the latter - at least not in the current understanding of the term. Otherwise Westwood could claim revolutionary AI with their 1993 Dune 2. And several studios before them.

'Yeah, guys, all these years of silence and concept art - that was us buying up all Nvidia's DGXs and single-handedly pushing AI beyond anything this world has ever dreamed of'. Pathetic.

Looks like Jacobs has caught his own FOMO fever and after missing out on the blockchain and NFT craze he sure as hell won't miss out on the current one. Label any old piece of code that has been used in this industry since 1980s as 'advanced AI', because that's what investors want to hear these days.

Term AI has been used for systems that decide game's NPC behavior for decades.

Originally the choice of term didn't cause any problems since it was the only type of AI humans could build. The invention of machine learning came much later.

Nowadays it's a bit of a problem since game AIs are called AIs, and machine-learning AIs are also called AIs, despite being two completely different technologies. But Camelot Unchained isn't misusing the term AI. What they are building is called an AI, and there's no other good term for it because back in 1900s someone decided to use that term and it stuck.

Raagnarz · May 2023

waveslayer said:

OK Mark, thats cool and all but how long is this new powerfull AI going to take to get game ready? and will this AI still be cutting edge when the game is released?

All I really want to see is someone take DAoC and remake it with updated graphics and ability systems, that IMHO would be a money maker

Thats what we all thought it was going to be....10 years ago. They built the original DAOC 20+ years ago, when MMO's were in their infancy. Yet DAOC was developed for a few million dollars in like 3 years. That was back when no one knew what they were really doing. And yet with all these advances over the years, after what could be assumed as decades more experience of game development, Jacobs and crew can't get a game out of the door in 10+ years with way more money. Hell they even censor their backer forums for people that paid them and believed in them. Can't even ask or mention "when is the release date" or "why is it taking so long". Their backer forums are completely fucking dead. The original people who believed in them have long since thrown in the towel, or are banned or just sick of their threads/posts being deleted by mods. I really wish congress would crack down hard on video game developers and video game practices. One of the few industries in the world still allowed to operate like the wild wild west and scam/defraud people with little to no consequences.

Morfeus641 · May 2023

I backed this game a lifetime ago. I remain amazed it hasn't launched. Just staggering grift.

[Deleted User] · May 2023

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Valdheim · May 2023

Is this "AI" in the room with us right now?

Darkhawke · May 2023

Lol MJ , why do I recall you telling us you were going to deliver the best crafting system ever made in War, then giving us a pot with an ant crawling around in it , that needed dirt,seed,water , then watch it grow.

So innovative, so advanced, so Fail.

I expect a sequel.

lotharic · May 2023

After Ragnarok died coming out of the gate, I'm amused that this dev team is still plodding along with a game that isnt really closer to release now than it was in 2015. I guess they're just collecting paychecks until they finally run out of money. They certainly aren't trying to launch a game.

Kyleran · May 2023

lotharic said:

After Ragnarok died coming out of the gate, I'm amused that this dev team is still plodding along with a game that isnt really closer to release now than it was in 2015. I guess they're just collecting paychecks until they finally run out of money. They certainly aren't trying to launch a game.

Well since they just obtained $15M in new funding, almost doubling the amt reported raised to date I'm guessing they have enough money to keep drawing paychecks for quite a while longer.

nurso · May 2023

cameltosis said:

As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.

I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.

A good AI is needed for e.g. the NPC castle defenders or the mobs defending Places of Power or spawning in The Depths ... especially The Depths should not provide the rare craft ingredients without a little struggle. The NPC AI is of course not only needed for CU, but also for FSR.

Slapshot1188 · May 2023

nurso said:

cameltosis said:

As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.

I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.

A good AI is needed for e.g. the NPC castle defenders or the mobs defending Places of Power or spawning in The Depths ... especially The Depths should not provide the rare craft ingredients without a little struggle. The NPC AI is of course not only needed for CU, but also for FSR.

Sure, like I said... good AI is always a plus, but it's more like the icing on the cake for the RvR focused game. The issue is that we still need the cake...

nurso · May 2023

Slapshot1188 said:

nurso said:

cameltosis said:

As Slapshot said, this game is supposed to be like 90% PvP.

I understand that CU needed to do some extra work on pathfinding in order to ensure their destructible world worked with NPCs and pets. But decent "AI"? Seems like a bit of a waste of time......unless they are planning to pivot towards being PvE.

A good AI is needed for e.g. the NPC castle defenders or the mobs defending Places of Power or spawning in The Depths ... especially The Depths should not provide the rare craft ingredients without a little struggle. The NPC AI is of course not only needed for CU, but also for FSR.

Sure, like I said... good AI is always a plus, but it's more like the icing on the cake for the RvR focused game. The issue is that we still need the cake...

Is it though? In the current newsletter, it was indicated why a more complex AI is needed:

At this point in development we have a very powerful AI engine, which is built to support sophisticated behaviors interacting with the environment and thousands of other entities.

and

Once marked up, the world becomes alive with possible exploitations by our NPCs. We can have certain creatures prefer to live and operate within specific land features, such as on snowy surfaces, or muddy river banks. Or we can have them seek the unique resources of a given area. We could have NPCs avoid water, or seek it, for a variety of purposes. The possibilities are endless.

Surely, an MMORPG should definitely have a living, breathing world, even if the game itself has a PvP focus.

Howdy, Stranger!

Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems

Comments

Foundational Principle #2 – RvR isn’t the end game, it’s the only game!

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Camelot Unchained's April Update Details Efforts to Develop 'One of the Most Powerful MMO AI Systems

Comments

Foundational Principle #2 – RvR isn’t the end game, it’s the only game!

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV