From 80 it become a slog of running dungeon after dungeon, with little in the way of rewards, because as soon as you hit WT4 - the full loot table opens up to you.
Actually, that doesn't happen when you start playing in WT4, It happens after you reach level 85 in WT4 since the 6 rarest uniques can not drop for you unless you're level 85+... if they ever do because those 6 are that rare.
As to the grind and the point of doing the grind?
There is no intrinsic point to it here nor in any other ARPG loot grinder. None. There never has been. You either find your own personal reason to do it chasing a carrot you want or you don't. It can be enjoyed but not by everyone.
Seasons? Different carrot but ultimately the same end-game grind that you either do fully, partially, or not at all.
ARPGs are only for everyone at the most basic story level and you can either feel like you got your money's worth playing just the story casually with one or multiple classes or not.
The end-game / level-cap gameplay is not meant for everyone though. ARPGs get progressively more niche at the high end with extremely low gear upgrades per hour played ratios that even those who enjoy loot grinders can only stomach to a point. They're even more niche at the highest grind levels.
Do they get repetitious and do you become aware of recycled mob families, bosses, and assets with palette changes? You bet your ass they do. D3 is actually more repetitive than D4 in that sense despite their simple little procedurally generated rift floors. GR bosses there are not even modified clones re-using assets, they are in fact the same boss with the same name and the same moves from a small pool of bosses that you actually get to know by name because you'll fight them that many times.
I have played D3 for many years - about 6 weeks every season - and I have seen every single complaint about repetitiveness, boredom, and questions about the point of it all hundreds of times in D3 forums. I'm not seeing any unique complaints about D4 I haven't seen before about any and all ARPGs.
YOU!
You have absolutely revealed the biggest issue with Diablo 4!
No one truly knows what it is. It is neither an ARPG, an RPG or an MMO - yet it tries to be all three!
I think Blizzard have decided to try to cater to everyone - and it's perhaps not quite working as well as intended.
I refuse to compare it to D3, however if you remember the days of old - D3 was born in a similar situation perhaps, and one of my closest friends who I've slayed with countless times through countless ARPGS keeps telling me - "just wait, D3 was same at release"
I do agree with you - that ARPGs are a bit like sandbox games in that inventing your own fun and finding your own journey is important, whether it's chasing uniques and better gear to improve your build, or pushing the hardest content - the gameplay is defined by the player as opposed to the developer.
However, that said - is the gameplay loop of nightmare dungeons sustainable enough long term? There are many aspects to D4 which are lacklustre such as;
Cellars - It's been proven that they are just not worth it, and that's already after a re-work
Tree - I like the tree mechanic, but I wish it were more engaging!
PVP - (Ok there are some nice cosmetics at least!)
Gear Enchanting - i've spent the best part of a few hundred million. It's painful - it doesn't even show you possible rolls!
World Bosses - Trivial kills and trivial loot.
Quests - Honestly can't complain about them. I enjoyed them!
World events - (Obols) Some are great, some are just awful-ish. Some of the unique ones in Nightmare dungeons are cool, but outside of Helltide, their worth is questionable
Helltide - It's a feature I suppose, but I feel it could be so much more!
Dungeons - there are some truly amazing dungeons, and there are a few that feel like clones! For NMDS, there's quite a few that are just downright frustrating!
Drops - everyone is complaining about drops at the moment. If I had to complain, I'd complain about the number of prefixes / affixes and question if it's worth having so many. Loot feels similra to D2, but farming that loot feels a lot more slow.
For me - I need to manage my expectations and be patient. But ActiBlizz needs to show us some light at the end of the tunnel. It frustrates me that their design plan from day one was "let's rip up everything from D3 because it's all bad". IMHO many elements of D3 i.e. endless push, quick runs, community, and build flexibility were things I'd wish they could have recognised as genre defining, and what made D3 so successful for so long.
I've put in about 80 hours and am only level 65 and still enjoying the gameplay a lot. I can't imagine how many hours people are grinding to get to level 80+ just to find the game boring. Self-inflicted in my opinion. I mean come on, we've seen it time and time again....people play tons of hours a day for a month after release then complain when they reach the end and have nothing to do and are now bored lol. No shit.
And hell, worse case scenario if I am bored 20 more hours from now I got 100 hours out of the game that will surely get more content. Can't complain.
You have absolutely revealed the biggest issue with Diablo 4!
No one truly knows what it is. It is neither an ARPG, an RPG or an MMO - yet it tries to be all three!
I think Blizzard have decided to try to cater to everyone - and it's perhaps not quite working as well as intended.
I refuse to compare it to D3, however if you remember the days of old - D3 was born in a similar situation perhaps, and one of my closest friends who I've slayed with countless times through countless ARPGS keeps telling me - "just wait, D3 was same at release"
I do agree with you - that ARPGs are a bit like sandbox games in that inventing your own fun and finding your own journey is important, whether it's chasing uniques and better gear to improve your build, or pushing the hardest content - the gameplay is defined by the player as opposed to the developer.
However, that said - is the gameplay loop of nightmare dungeons sustainable enough long term? There are many aspects to D4 which are lacklustre such as;
Cellars - It's been proven that they are just not worth it, and that's already after a re-work
Tree - I like the tree mechanic, but I wish it were more engaging!
PVP - (Ok there are some nice cosmetics at least!)
Gear Enchanting - i've spent the best part of a few hundred million. It's painful - it doesn't even show you possible rolls!
World Bosses - Trivial kills and trivial loot.
Quests - Honestly can't complain about them. I enjoyed them!
World events - (Obols) Some are great, some are just awful-ish. Some of the unique ones in Nightmare dungeons are cool, but outside of Helltide, their worth is questionable
Helltide - It's a feature I suppose, but I feel it could be so much more!
Dungeons - there are some truly amazing dungeons, and there are a few that feel like clones! For NMDS, there's quite a few that are just downright frustrating!
Drops - everyone is complaining about drops at the moment. If I had to complain, I'd complain about the number of prefixes / affixes and question if it's worth having so many. Loot feels similra to D2, but farming that loot feels a lot more slow.
For me - I need to manage my expectations and be patient. But ActiBlizz needs to show us some light at the end of the tunnel. It frustrates me that their design plan from day one was "let's rip up everything from D3 because it's all bad". IMHO many elements of D3 i.e. endless push, quick runs, community, and build flexibility were things I'd wish they could have recognised as genre defining, and what made D3 so successful for so long.
Thx for your feedback x
You make zero sense. An aRPG is inherently an RPG and the game definitely does have the MMO elements with it being an MMO or not only being decided by the individual and his personal requirement of "massiveness". The game does not lack in identity and is in fact one of the more unique games in the genre.
Just because you don't want to compare one game to another it doesn't mean that the comparison is not apt. Many of the things that you describe from D3 as "genre defining" but they are paired with things that hardcore players also gave feedback that they wanted like rare chase items and the idea of skill trees and not having a free respec option(although they might as well be), more affixes and more "in-depth" mechanics, a longer leveling curve. Basically the endless push is not from level 50 to 100 and then past that into the nightmare dungeons up to about level 150. The build flexibility is now based on the skill tree and paragon boards respecs and the variety of legendary aspects that can be combined for different overall effects and builds. The sense of community is bolstered by public events and bosses where you naturally meet people. The dungeon runs are still quick and there are plenty of other activities that are even quicker. There are things that are copied and pasted straight out of Diablo 3 like the enchanting system that you complained about and the overreliance on builders and spenders.
As for "lacklustre" content - all of the content in an ARPG is "kill a bunch of enemies, get loot, see if that loot fits into your build or inspires new builds, rinse, repeat". If you don't find the loop enjoyable or have had enough of the game altogether then the set-dressing doesn't really matter. And yeah the game and games in general do have limited content so it is natural to get bored with them at some point. May I suggest though that instead of levelling from 80 to 100 you should perhaps have made an alt or two and experimented with different playstyles instead of sticking to one that you were getting progressively bored with?
Made it to lvl 58 before I got bored with the "endgame" which is to say the grind. Don't really feel like making new characters at this point in time. I haven't uninstalled it yet, but I have pretty much moved on at this point.
Oh gosh, another gamer complaining about the repetitive nature in a video game. Which is no different than any other video game or hobby for that matter. Please name a game that doesn't involve any repetition?
Considering the statements regarding the desire for more variety, one valid suggestion is the inclusion of procedurally-generated content, such as randomized maps as seen in Path of Exile. This addition could enhance the replayability and keep the experience fresh for players. However, it is important to note that the upcoming season's content and updates may already address these concerns, making it worth reserving judgment until more information becomes available.
Ultimately, it is essential for individuals to reflect on their personal preferences when evaluating a game like Diablo. If one finds themselves dissatisfied with the emphasis on the gear grind and repetitive enemy encounters, it may be worth considering if this particular style of game aligns with their preferences.
Also, I personally think it may have been a large mistake on the part of Blizzard to not have a season IMMEDIATELY on launch. It burns people out to have to go through the same stuff again after getting everything they wanted already without the season. I suspect we're going to see a large playerbase drop off after a month in the season.
The randomized maps in POE doesn't change the game or gameplay.
I compare diablo iv to a map. It is large, has a lot of information on it, but the depth of the map is pretty shallow. Speaking of map. The world feels like a map. You are playing on what the overview map should have looked like.
Skill trees are a mess. The itemization and crafting are the worst thing I have ever seen.
Chat? Group finder? Diablo?
Hard nope. People are going to listen tomorrow expecting a major change in developer ideology. It won't happen. Many bought battlepass for season 1. Peeps will use it and wait for years for this game to get fixed.
I compare diablo iv to a map. It is large, has a lot of information on it, but the depth of the map is pretty shallow. Speaking of map. The world feels like a map. You are playing on what the overview map should have looked like.
Skill trees are a mess. The itemization and crafting are the worst thing I have ever seen.
Chat? Group finder? Diablo?
Hard nope. People are going to listen tomorrow expecting a major change in developer ideology. It won't happen. Many bought battlepass for season 1. Peeps will use it and wait for years for this game to get fixed.
Is the honeymoon phase starting to end for some people then?
Kind of the same as any other arpg. Season will spike and then fall off after a month or 2 until the next season. The only real difference I'm personally seeing between this game and D3 is a cash shop and battle pass. The overall idea is the same just with a different coat of paint.
The game is a month in and players are talking about a lack of end game content, that does not bode well. Also we have players talking about a lack of direction at top (ish) level.
In the scheme of things this was to be expected, today multiplayer games are made with only enough content for one to three months of play. The lack of focus is down to the studio trying to appeal to all our favourite playstyles from starting the game to end game. In a sense this is like having certain maps only some players can play, it splits the player-base up, always a bad idea. But with huge player levels, that side effect is at least drowned out.
So I feel validated that I waited and now it is a question of how long? Some are talking of a year+, that may be too long for me, but concerns like this may put brakes on the guild I am thinking of joining, so personally that may make my decision for me.
I think it is highly unlikely the focus issue will be solved for two reasons; firstly it is built in and studios seem to think it is better to have a potpourri of gameplay than a herbal infusion, this was not an unintended design error, secondly I think many casual gamers prefer this lack of focus and that's who games are now made for.
The game is a month in and players are talking about a lack of end game content, that does not bode well. Also we have players talking about a lack of direction at top (ish) level.
Maybe I'm confused or something but I've always looked at the Diablo games as "do it for the story and then you are done ANNNNND here's some extra content for those who want to just fool around in game."
We have this idea that games need to go on and on and on. While it's great that some can do this, I don't think all of them need to. People rushed and finished and now they can wait until an expansion. if they want to have some fun with what's offered that's great but this isn't going to be a steady stream of continual non-stop content.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The game is a month in and players are talking about a lack of end game content, that does not bode well. Also we have players talking about a lack of direction at top (ish) level.
Maybe I'm confused or something but I've always looked at the Diablo games as "do it for the story and then you are done ANNNNND here's some extra content for those who want to just fool around in game."
We have this idea that games need to go on and on and on. While it's great that some can do this, I don't think all of them need to. People rushed and finished and now they can wait until an expansion. if they want to have some fun with what's offered that's great but this isn't going to be a steady stream of continual non-stop content.
That is a fair point, but do you accept that what players may think is the norm for a Diablo game is overridden by what players expect today from any game? I don't blame Blizzard as much as my post might have suggested, it is not easy to keep the locusts who want to eat never ending content happy.
But I do think games are designed these days after the studio asks themselves this question..."so how many online games were played for more than three months over the last few years?". The answer to that is that players bail on nearly every game out there, so why bother to put in a ton of stuff when so many are going to go regardless of what you do?
If the idea is that players only come back for each expansion, that will suit the casuals, but many players seem to think the time invested will mean they are "not-so-casuals". Maybe that is the way forward now, giving up on the idea of a strong player base and accepting you can only have a seasonal player base. But as someone who wants the game to be as MMO like as possible, that's a bit sad.
Incidentally, I don't think the problems in the article are that serious, they don't strike me as unsolvable given even half a year.
Diablo 3 had an at best average story, the game was in essence at least for me, getting to the end game and trying to perfect a number of different builds, seasons etc.
Diablo 4 has a great story, which as the reviewer on this site said, really makes you question the morality of your choices (or lack thereof, if I had been given the choice I would most likely have sided with Lilith) and the map is huge so after exploring all the nooks and crannies and doing the optional dungeons, I was lvl 53 before I completed the storyline.
So personally I will now await further content and play some other titles (FFXVI, Baldur's Gate 3 to name but two) in the meantime, before I push on and play the end game, saying that I am more than happy I have got my monies worth from the game thus far.
Heads up if you have Amazon Prime - There's a free horse armor bundle in Prime Gaming for D4.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
You have absolutely revealed the biggest issue with Diablo 4!
No one truly knows what it is. It is neither an ARPG, an RPG or an MMO - yet it tries to be all three!
I think Blizzard have decided to try to cater to everyone - and it's perhaps not quite working as well as intended.
I refuse to compare it to D3, however if you remember the days of old - D3 was born in a similar situation perhaps, and one of my closest friends who I've slayed with countless times through countless ARPGS keeps telling me - "just wait, D3 was same at release"
I do agree with you - that ARPGs are a bit like sandbox games in that inventing your own fun and finding your own journey is important, whether it's chasing uniques and better gear to improve your build, or pushing the hardest content - the gameplay is defined by the player as opposed to the developer.
However, that said - is the gameplay loop of nightmare dungeons sustainable enough long term? There are many aspects to D4 which are lacklustre such as;
For me - I need to manage my expectations and be patient. But ActiBlizz needs to show us some light at the end of the tunnel. It frustrates me that their design plan from day one was "let's rip up everything from D3 because it's all bad". IMHO many elements of D3 i.e. endless push, quick runs, community, and build flexibility were things I'd wish they could have recognised as genre defining, and what made D3 so successful for so long.
Thx for your feedback x
Just because you don't want to compare one game to another it doesn't mean that the comparison is not apt. Many of the things that you describe from D3 as "genre defining" but they are paired with things that hardcore players also gave feedback that they wanted like rare chase items and the idea of skill trees and not having a free respec option(although they might as well be), more affixes and more "in-depth" mechanics, a longer leveling curve. Basically the endless push is not from level 50 to 100 and then past that into the nightmare dungeons up to about level 150. The build flexibility is now based on the skill tree and paragon boards respecs and the variety of legendary aspects that can be combined for different overall effects and builds. The sense of community is bolstered by public events and bosses where you naturally meet people. The dungeon runs are still quick and there are plenty of other activities that are even quicker. There are things that are copied and pasted straight out of Diablo 3 like the enchanting system that you complained about and the overreliance on builders and spenders.
As for "lacklustre" content - all of the content in an ARPG is "kill a bunch of enemies, get loot, see if that loot fits into your build or inspires new builds, rinse, repeat". If you don't find the loop enjoyable or have had enough of the game altogether then the set-dressing doesn't really matter. And yeah the game and games in general do have limited content so it is natural to get bored with them at some point. May I suggest though that instead of levelling from 80 to 100 you should perhaps have made an alt or two and experimented with different playstyles instead of sticking to one that you were getting progressively bored with?
Or better put, why shouldn't a diablo game be a diablo game?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
my point is they did nothing to attract anyone new...
They made it more mmorpg like so that right there is something new. Could attract people who wanted a diablo mmorpg.
What else would you have liked or might you have thought would be worth it to non-diiablo players?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Their fundamental design is repetitive grind in most cases.
For some, that's fine. They are fans of the genre that enjoy the gameplay and either the grind doesn't bother them or it's part of what they enjoy.
For others, it's not of interest and as soon as the key elements to experience have been checked off, there's not much else to do.
To try and argue in favor or against the game based on it's genre trope, is just silly, since it's fundamentally "I don't enjoy this" and "well I do".
That's not defending or attacking a quality of an experience. That's people trying to use their opinions to supersede other's opinions.
Meanwhile, Diablo IV did $666 million in revenue in just five days.
And somehow you know they didn't attract new players?
Skill trees are a mess. The itemization and crafting are the worst thing I have ever seen.
Chat? Group finder? Diablo?
Hard nope. People are going to listen tomorrow expecting a major change in developer ideology. It won't happen. Many bought battlepass for season 1. Peeps will use it and wait for years for this game to get fixed.
Nope, Just giving opinions like everyone else here on the DISCUSSION Forums.
How about you play your way and I will mine... Profit!
Carry on.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Kind of the same as any other arpg. Season will spike and then fall off after a month or 2 until the next season. The only real difference I'm personally seeing between this game and D3 is a cash shop and battle pass. The overall idea is the same just with a different coat of paint.
Just look between tomb raider and mahjong on the bargain rack at Walmart. Should have a big clearance sticker on it.
In the scheme of things this was to be expected, today multiplayer games are made with only enough content for one to three months of play. The lack of focus is down to the studio trying to appeal to all our favourite playstyles from starting the game to end game. In a sense this is like having certain maps only some players can play, it splits the player-base up, always a bad idea. But with huge player levels, that side effect is at least drowned out.
So I feel validated that I waited and now it is a question of how long? Some are talking of a year+, that may be too long for me, but concerns like this may put brakes on the guild I am thinking of joining, so personally that may make my decision for me.
I think it is highly unlikely the focus issue will be solved for two reasons; firstly it is built in and studios seem to think it is better to have a potpourri of gameplay than a herbal infusion, this was not an unintended design error, secondly I think many casual gamers prefer this lack of focus and that's who games are now made for.
At least you could reply, the punters love a good fracas.
We have this idea that games need to go on and on and on. While it's great that some can do this, I don't think all of them need to. People rushed and finished and now they can wait until an expansion. if they want to have some fun with what's offered that's great but this isn't going to be a steady stream of continual non-stop content.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But I do think games are designed these days after the studio asks themselves this question..."so how many online games were played for more than three months over the last few years?". The answer to that is that players bail on nearly every game out there, so why bother to put in a ton of stuff when so many are going to go regardless of what you do?
If the idea is that players only come back for each expansion, that will suit the casuals, but many players seem to think the time invested will mean they are "not-so-casuals". Maybe that is the way forward now, giving up on the idea of a strong player base and accepting you can only have a seasonal player base. But as someone who wants the game to be as MMO like as possible, that's a bit sad.
Incidentally, I don't think the problems in the article are that serious, they don't strike me as unsolvable given even half a year.
Diablo 4 has a great story, which as the reviewer on this site said, really makes you question the morality of your choices (or lack thereof, if I had been given the choice I would most likely have sided with Lilith) and the map is huge so after exploring all the nooks and crannies and doing the optional dungeons, I was lvl 53 before I completed the storyline.
So personally I will now await further content and play some other titles (FFXVI, Baldur's Gate 3 to name but two) in the meantime, before I push on and play the end game, saying that I am more than happy I have got my monies worth from the game thus far.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED