Lets go over just a few of the thousands of issues they attempted to resolve and failed.
House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own). Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone) Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own. telekinesis through walls (steal everything) Portal blocking ganking Crates to prevent movement around a portal (patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL) (patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL) Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too.
I could go on and on with these stupid patch fixes, meanwhile countless newbs are getting everything they have stolen. While NOTHING is happening at all to the scammers or exploiters.
Also dont forget the most popular PVP areas were Xroads and Graveyard both are "coincidently" the newbie starter areas. So high level players griefing newbs the entire time.
Dont act like this is not predicted. This was going on for years and only fixed with Trammel (PVE safe zone), then the problems immediately siezed to exist (after Raph left). The Zone Raph is on record saying he was against.
How many patches does it take to figure out scammers/griefers will find ways to inflict pain on people, and banning them is really the best solution.
less than 1% of the players were causing this entire game to freefall, and NOTHING was being done about it.
Raph oversaw a completely lawless world, rampant with griefers and scammers and stood and watched. Any fool could have just watched in town for 5 minutes and saw any number of these scams happening. Or stood at the Xroads and watch the newbs being ganked day in day out.
You say this was all predictable, but you're using hindsight. There were no MMORPGs like this to draw experience from before UO.
"House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own)." Fixed, as stated.
"Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone)" I don't know if this was fixed. It was a rare situation, since every house of the first set that had an open roof was the same height, and it was rare to have that elevation otherwise (by terrain).
"Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own." Fixed by means of the "Reveal" command and the "I Ban Thee" command.
"telekinesis through walls (steal everything)" Fixed. This was related to the back corner bug. They added a corner piece for that corner.
"Portal blocking ganking/ Crates to prevent movement around a portal" This is directly related to ganking. They tried to set in a Justice System, but in the end the Blue Healer Bug killed it, just before EA hit the Trammel button. Yes, this was too slow in the making. Raph won't say it, he doesn't push the blame, but I'm convinced that there were GMs in UO who quietly pushed against this succeeding.
"(patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL)" Yeah, mistake that should have been predicted.
"(patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL)" Yeah, again predictable. This is another example of why I think other GMs were working against a working Justice System.
"Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too." Fixed.
Raph was Lead Designer. That didn't give him total control. There were departments, and those areas were suspect in my mind. Again, he won't say anything about that, he doesn't pass the buck. Many games claimed to have a Justice System to protect players (newbs or otherwise). Look at those scams, where they had "prison", which was really just a quest for the PKers. No punishment at all. That prevailing Dev hardcore thinking, I think, was a problem within UO, too. This time around, Raph is in complete control. It would be career ruin for him to fail, this time. I don't expect him to fail.
Even though I thought and think the game is not a good game, UO did great things for it's time.
Saying that though, It was not the type of simulation that we are talking about here anymore than SimAnt was prior to UO.
ECO is about as close as we have gotten so far but their team only really simulates the ecology piece. The reality is we are a few decades away from the ability to do it.
You are incorrect on multiple fronts here. You are going to need to define your version of simulation, because it is not the common definition. Eco works basically like UO did. SimAnt WAS a simulation. I have been working in games simulation for thirty years.
It sounds like to you, it's not a simulation unless it simulates everything. But that is not what a simulation is. All simulations are abstracted and partial.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance.
Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover,
the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as
they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of
Future Past.
The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly
impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and
artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations
that have influenced them.
However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally
indifferent to this notion
Of course the general gamer doesn't care where the ideas they love came from. But they care about the ideas. The sophisticated gamers with a long history (like those on this board) DO care. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be full of references to games from two decades ago.
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems
that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the
responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
I am glad you state that it was a personal reservation. Just be cautious about extrapolating your opinion to everyone. Millions of people did not think those games were just a random assortment of systems.
Similarly, not all gamers seek complete suspension of disbelief. In fact, it's not even in the top five reasons people play games. Have you ever taken the Quantic Foundry survey, by any chance?
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to
games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of
time and competition.
As a member of the gaming community and a user
on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your
future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on
these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a
harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to
demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative
vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as
the gaming public, anticipate.
Forgive me for being blunt, but I have written more words about exactly what you are asking for than any other game developer on the planet. The answers are already out there. If you are truly curious, in 2018 I put out an 800 page book called
Postmortems covering everything you ever might want to know about what,
how, and why the decisions were for all of my major games.
I don't mind answering some direct questions, and I will in this thread, but it really will be repetition.
That said, the tone here is very odd. I am not applying for a job, and I am not a politician. I don't need to demonstrate what you ask. All I need to do is make a game.
Lastly, I'd argue that making things in line with what the gaming public anticipates is how you get dull, derivative, same-same MMOs (and everything else). I'd rather make something the public didn't anticipate, but that they like anyway!
I am quite happy to judge you by the reviews of the pudding Raph, I think we all are. I am glad you seem to have moved on from Metaplace as 'the next big thing', though I must admit I had not realised any games had come out of it. Of all the things you talked about it seemed the least interesting for gamers and the most interesting for studios and the gaming media.
As to not showing anything, that's fine, we have had other developers on here who have taken the same approach, you will get pillared unless you show a game that was ready to launch yesterday. Players find it hard to equate the early look of the design process with anything they would want to play.
And thanks for posting, if I was in your position I am not sure I would come onto gaming forums myself, the skepticism runs deep and you will get a ton of flak.
Metaplace was pretty poorly understood, and I think the general consensus these days is that it was on the right track, but ahead of its time and limited by a lot of the tech of the day.
As far as a gamer is concerned, it really is best described as being just like Roblox. But Roblox has potential impact way beyond just being a game. The other way to think of it is as the first steps towards "an AR cloud" or a "metaverse" or those other buzzwords.
Your loss. Raph talks about changing the game world from being built and sent out to our computers, something that's hard to change in an MMORPG for various reasons. Changing that to art, but not placement in a built world, and then sending out packets live, for the world we see as we play. This seems to be an advancement from what they did with SWG.
I admit Raph is a great designer on some things, especially economy/crafting based implementations.
However I will never be able to take Raph seriously until he understands that some players will gank newbs just for fun, even without incentives. The fact he was the lead Dev and knew ganking was killing the playerbase and was pressured into putting in 19 patches to stop ganking and still couldnt fix it, is ridiculous. He admits the dev after he left finally implemented a PVE safe zone and fixed it immediately on his departure. He still thinks the PVE safe zone was a mistake and if he could just do 1 more patch ... LOL, as if 19 wasnt enough to figure out gankers will always pounce on newbs if given an opportunity.
Guy is clueless on big subsystems revolving around PVP and how they effect PVE players. Now he is talking about having Political systems in an MMO? Yeah thats just what all the PVE'ers want to hear, a system where the PVPers can punish PVEers through taxes and rules.
Guy needs to stick with what he is good at, which is crafting/economy/pve systems/world building.
Not only was there no punishment whatsoever for ganking in UO, but it was glorified..."Kill other players and take their stuff" was all UO was pretty much known for....It was my first introduction into MMOs....I couldnt believe what I was seeing....I'd barely take a step out of Brittain and would be one shot and insta-killed constantly....After a few days of trying to make it work, a friend introduced me to Everquest (this was late 99).....I never played UO again and never missed playing like that one iota.
Even though I thought and think the game is not a good game, UO did great things for it's time.
Saying that though, It was not the type of simulation that we are talking about here anymore than SimAnt was prior to UO.
ECO is about as close as we have gotten so far but their team only really simulates the ecology piece. The reality is we are a few decades away from the ability to do it.
You are incorrect on multiple fronts here. You are going to need to define your version of simulation, because it is not the common definition. Eco works basically like UO did. SimAnt WAS a simulation. I have been working in games simulation for thirty years.
It sounds like to you, it's not a simulation unless it simulates everything. But that is not what a simulation is. All simulations are abstracted and partial.
In the world of gaming, the notion of influence holds little significance.
Please pardon me, Raph, but modern gamers, including those who engage in MMORPGs, simply do not show any interest in UO.
Moreover,
the majority of people are not even aware of its existence, just as
they are unfamiliar with NWN AOL, Realms of Arkania, or Legends of
Future Past.
The concept of influence only holds meaning for those who are directly
impacted by it.
In most cases, this would include developers and
artists who carry forward the creative vision of previous generations
that have influenced them.
However, it is safe to say that the average gamer is generally
indifferent to this notion
Of course the general gamer doesn't care where the ideas they love came from. But they care about the ideas. The sophisticated gamers with a long history (like those on this board) DO care. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be full of references to games from two decades ago.
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
A successful game cannot merely be a random assortment of systems
that somehow function, regardless of how promising these ideas may be.
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Gamers desire a complete suspension of disbelief, and it is the
responsibility of developers to facilitate this experience for us.
I am glad you state that it was a personal reservation. Just be cautious about extrapolating your opinion to everyone. Millions of people did not think those games were just a random assortment of systems.
Similarly, not all gamers seek complete suspension of disbelief. In fact, it's not even in the top five reasons people play games. Have you ever taken the Quantic Foundry survey, by any chance?
It is imperative to address your past record in contributing to
games that may have raised some doubts or failed to stand the test of
time and competition.
As a member of the gaming community and a user
on an MMORPG site that caters to a demographic interested in your
future projects, we are curious to know how you have capitalized on
these opportunities to grow and align with our expectations.
Achieving success in the gaming industry requires a
harmonious blend of talent and vision. It is crucial for you to
demonstrate how you have honed your skills and expanded your creative
vision to ensure that your future endeavors are in line with what we, as
the gaming public, anticipate.
Forgive me for being blunt, but I have written more words about exactly what you are asking for than any other game developer on the planet. The answers are already out there. If you are truly curious, in 2018 I put out an 800 page book called
Postmortems covering everything you ever might want to know about what,
how, and why the decisions were for all of my major games.
I don't mind answering some direct questions, and I will in this thread, but it really will be repetition.
That said, the tone here is very odd. I am not applying for a job, and I am not a politician. I don't need to demonstrate what you ask. All I need to do is make a game.
Lastly, I'd argue that making things in line with what the gaming public anticipates is how you get dull, derivative, same-same MMOs (and everything else). I'd rather make something the public didn't anticipate, but that they like anyway!
I appreciate your efforts, but it seems that you have overlooked the core elements and instead emphasized defense over comprehension. Raph although we may not be acquainted on this platform, we have indeed had the pleasure of knowing each other in the past. I want to assure you that I comprehend more than you might anticipate. In fact, I have engaged in similar discussions in a professional capacity several years ago and I believe you were present. Continue to continue on. We will wait to see what you produce.
Raph, I have always said you have some amazing developer skills. UO was one of my most favorite games of all time. Some of the PVE systems crafting/ecomony are unmatched even today.
However with all these issues, the main reason UO is not well known today is due to the PVP mechanic design of the game.
No, this isn't borne out by historical data.
The main reason UO is not well known today is because it didn't get sufficient ongoing investment. The PK issue caused massive churn, but once fixed, the game started to grow.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the PvP issue was basically fixed by 1999, after I moved off the project. The userbase promptly doubled in size. So describing this as the reason why the game faded doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.
But EA chose to chase after sequels, rather than say, upgrading the client to full 3d, modernizing the graphics to keep pace with the market, and so on. We can look at the trajectory of other games and how they engaged in ongoing support and maintenance of the community, and it's pretty easy to see.
It's important to remember that UO predated wide adoption of 3d graphics cards by very little. This was an earthquake in game design. It was simply visually non-competitive in short order. It could have been addressed, and it wasn't. (Well, they tried with 3rd Dawn but it was a very insufficient effort).
So here is my question to you. You said a few years ago you still thought trammel (pve safe zones) was a mistake and that it went to far. Do you still feel this way, or have you changed your opinion. Do you still believe in designs where its perfectly fine to have high level players griefing newbies, killing PVE players because they accidently cross a hidden zone line, or take a portal to some nefarious place and lose everything.
If you don't want to read the article, the key statement is this:
"I do not want to ever disappoint people in that way again. People
will come to SWG for those things, and I do not want them to discover
that they cannot stay and enjoy them because the very freedoms which
allow those cool, innovative, exciting features, also allow d00dspeaking
giggly jerks to dance roughshod jigs on their virtual corpses.
So am I willing to make compromises in “realism” (a radically
overvalued thing in game design, frankly) to make sure that SWG remains
someplace where most everybody can feel welcome?
You betcha."
I will say it is a little weird to still be getting asked this question. After all, I did SWG right after, and it did not have a PK problem. So the evidence that I changed approach is right there.
In fact, the system in SWG was basically an elaboration of the temporary enemy flags in UO. Today, the term TEF is common currency in the MMO industry. World of Warcraft launched using nearly exactly the same ruleset for TEFs as SWG used. In SWG, we had a fairly well-regarded PvP system that didn't bother peaceful players, got 26% of the userbase participating, and had super easy opt-in and out moment to moment. The biggest issue with it was that people shot Stormtroopers without realizing it was a factional action; that isn't that tough a problem to solve.
Personally I think having a separate PVE server and PVP server is essential in todays MMO world. PVEers are sick of being targets. This allows people who want to play in a PVP environment to play with people like themselves, and PVE players to not have to worry about being sneak attacked at 10% health.
I think that a lot of what afflicts the sandbox side of the MMO world is that too many of the designers are trying to basically just remake UO rather than learning from it.
That said, the success of things like Valheim also shows that there is much more widespread acceptance of PvP in the general gaming market than there used to be. But a lot of the veteran MMO players are deeply scarred by UO and so it is still a very touchy subject, as this thread evidences.
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
Sorry , I must add to this piece. This is one thing that comes off as a lack of humility. UO had nothing to do with Minecraft. They were inspired by Dwarf Fortress and before you say anything about Dwarf Fortress, Tarn did not and does not like MMOS. Never has.
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
Sorry , I must add to this piece. This is one thing that comes off as a lack of humility. UO had nothing to do with Minecraft. They were inspired by Dwarf Fortress and before you say anything about Dwarf Fortress, Tarn did not and does not like MMOS. Never has.
Sorry , I must add to this piece. This is one thing that comes off as a lack of humility. UO had nothing to do with Minecraft. They were inspired by Dwarf Fortress and before you say anything about Dwarf Fortress, Tarn did not and does not like MMOS. Never has.
Glad to see I wasn't the only person who remembers what Raph said a few years back.
In effect he felt that UO gave up too quickly and that a workable solution was still possible with only just a "little" more effort.
EVE Online is the only good example I know of that made FFA PVP somewhat palatable to a carebear like me, but your tailor story is repeated regularly, countless customers have walked away forever after suffering a crushing loss because they made a "mistake" or were ignorant of the risk.
So I would love for Raph to one day expound more on how his new title will control these bad behaviors, or will he follow your sensible suggestion to create separate worlds for PVE players?
First, this article is a warning AGAINST free for all PvP.
Second, the larger point is that creating non-PvP spaces doesn't stop all the ways in which players (or indeed users of any online service, within our outside of games) are assholes to one another. Yes, Trammel (or a safe server) stops the bluntest forms of PvP. But it
doesn't stop all the other ways in which you can grief another player.
It often doesn't even stop the playerkilling, if there are ways to
create environmental hazards.
Third, that by choosing to go with a paternalistic solution of having the company moderate, we were putting a cost burden on the company which someday they wouldn't be willing to pay. And it would mean that stuff would get worse not better.
It is important to understand this: I was WRONG about this for EverQuest. Their PK switch worked fine.
But I was RIGHT about this in the longer run. NONE of the large services do moderation anywhere near the standard that used to be the baseline. Today we accept crap in world chat in WoW that would have been an instaban back in the day. XBox Live is a cesspool. My God, we have Twitter.
My point was always "we need to find ways to manage this problem that aren't just 'ask the company to do it' because they eventually won't, or we will hate how they do it." Believe it or not, that was the reason why I stuck to my guns in UO.
So yeah, I was wrong, but not. It's complicated. We live in a world today where everyone opted for the safe zone. Then the admins abdicated. And now the Internet sucks. The only good places are the ones which are user moderated. Which is what I was trying to achieve in UO.
I think it's important to remember that UO was the single largest
interactive community ever made, at the time. We made a ton of mistakes.
We were suddenly governing a population the size of San Antonio, with a
currency stronger than the Italian lira at the time (pre EU), and more ways and freedoms in terms of interaction than anything that had ever been seen online before. You can
find articles from 1997 -- on my site even! -- where I lay out this
problem.
Ironically, NOW I get told that I am catering to carebear whiner crybabies and that mute and block are all the tools anyone would ever need, because nothing that happens online is real. (Check out the YouTube comments for lots of examples of that logic). So it's a bit surreal to come here and still be defending against accusations of being overly technolibertarian when to the rest of the world, I represent the opposite pole now.
I give credit where credit is due but I am not seeing the need to do so here. Credit for what? One of many people involved in projects no one barely knows about nor remembers nor cares about? It is rearview mirror. Trust is a currency. His pockets are empty.
If you have to ask for what, then you don't know me. There is NO SHORTAGE of stuff in that rear view mirror to go read or
watch. If I went into brag mode, I could fill pages here, but it would
be a silly prideful thing to do.
You don't know about it, apparently. That's fine. Most people on earth don't! And it's impossible to trust someone you don't know.
So it's a good thing I am not asking you to trust me on anything!
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
Sorry , I must add to this piece. This is one thing that comes off as a lack of humility. UO had nothing to do with Minecraft. They were inspired by Dwarf Fortress and before you say anything about Dwarf Fortress, Tarn did not and does not like MMOS. Never has.
Minecraft was directly inspired by Infiniminer and Wurm Online. Wurm Online was a direct attempt to make a simulation game like UO, only more hardcore.
The crafting tree in Minecraft is not just a direct descendant of the one in UO, it is actually identical in places.
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying it wasn't ALSO inspired by Dwarf Fortress.
Most games from two decades ago aren't ever mentioned at all.
The ideas, of course, have total currency RIGHT NOW. Minecraft is a direct descendant of UO. All lifeskilling, a giant chunk of cozy gaming, and also a most survival games, too. You mentioned Eco -- yup, also a direct line of influence. It doesn't matter whether UO itself has a lot of current players if the ideas it stood for still draw. Heck, the popularity of Sword Art Online demonstrates the appeal of the ideas.
Sorry , I must add to this piece. This is one thing that comes off as a lack of humility. UO had nothing to do with Minecraft. They were inspired by Dwarf Fortress and before you say anything about Dwarf Fortress, Tarn did not and does not like MMOS. Never has.
Minecraft was directly inspired by Infiniminer and Wurm Online. Wurm Online was a direct attempt to make a simulation game like UO, only more hardcore.
The crafting tree in Minecraft is not just a direct descendant of the one in UO, it is actually identical in places.
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying it wasn't ALSO inspired by Dwarf Fortress.
Infiniminer for sure the graphical look and mining for sure and Dwarf Fortress is where Minecraft came from in the sim catagory. Let's not connect dots where there are none.
I knew what kind of game I wanted to do pretty much from day one, actually. When I started what would later evolve into Minecraft, the main inspiration was to do something that was a mixture of Dwart Fortress, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Dungeon Keeper, with a big emphasis on keeping the game accessible. I was toying around with a first person mode similar to the Possess spell in Dungeon Keeper when I saw Infiniminer, and that's when the game turned into the first person, hands on type of game it is today.
I appreciate your efforts, but it seems that you have overlooked the core elements and instead emphasized defense over comprehension. Raph although we may not be acquainted on this platform, we have indeed had the pleasure of knowing each other in the past. I want to assure you that I comprehend more than you might anticipate. In fact, I have engaged in similar discussions in a professional capacity several years ago and I believe you were present. Continue to continue on. We will wait to see what you produce.
Well, good to see you again, whoever you are.
I really am not trying to be defensive. But you have to admit that there are aspects of this thread that are kind of funny. "No one remembers UO!" followed by a specific litany of patches and bugs from 25 years ago. "You need to tell us your positions!" when there's just tons and tons of stuff out there I've said about all of these things.
I really would be curious as to what you are getting at with your definition of simulation, that sounds like it could be an interesting conversation.
Infiniminer for sure the graphical look and mining for sure and Dwarf Fortress is where Minecraft came from in the sim catagory. Let's not connect dots where there are none.
I knew what kind of game I wanted to do pretty much from day one, actually. When I started what would later evolve into Minecraft, the main inspiration was to do something that was a mixture of Dwart Fortress, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Dungeon Keeper, with a big emphasis on keeping the game accessible. I was toying around with a first person mode similar to the Possess spell in Dungeon Keeper when I saw Infiniminer, and that's when the game turned into the first person, hands on type of game it is today.
Wurm Online was literally his preceding project. I do not understand how anyone can say that there was no influence from it on Minecraft, particularly when it's so evident. Wurm was also a very simulationist game. The Minecraft wiki on Fandom has a great list of the overlaps and similarities: https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Wurm_Online
And at the time, he and Rolf Jansson were very upfront that Wurm was intended to push further down UO's path. They were friends who were playing Eve together, when they decided to make the game. Eve early on often positioned itself as "UO in space," for that matter.
House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own). Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone) Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own. telekinesis through walls (steal everything) Portal blocking ganking Crates to prevent movement around a portal (patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL) (patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL) Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too.
It is interesting that in a lot of ways, aspects of PvP in games like UO, like mixing PvP and PvE, item loss and loot, are mostly gone in MMOs but are becoming more popular in shooters with the rise of extraction shooters.
EG Escape from Tarkov, Dark and Darker and Hunt Showdown
I am not sure why that is, but I imagine is has something to do with the form of these games, FPS vs RPG.
I can't really comment on UO though, I was a child when it released.
@Raph first of all, thank you so much for coming to this little decrepit corner of the internet and engaging with us grumpy old gits! I appreciate it a lot!
Second, ur still my favourite developer, I love your books and your committment to learning out loud. You seem to be one of the only developers who is even attempting to improve the MMORPG genre, so regardless of ur past/future successes, thank you for at least attempting something!
Third, I was wondering if we could get your opinions on combat mechanics? I've read ur books and your blog but combat mechanics is something you've been very quiet about. You've been more interested in the effects of combat, rather than the combat itself.
We seem to be living in an age of action combat. Internet speeds have gotten fast enough to support action combat and so it's everywhere. However, I am of the opinion that it's not a good choice for a long running MMO. I feel that action combat is too shallow to keep players engaged long term. In addition, that shallowness means that teamwork is also going to be easier which leads to reduced community. I know that tactical combat (like ur typical tab-target mmo) doesn't automatically mean it has depth, there are plenty of shallow games like SWTOR, but at least tactical combat has a greater chance of being deep.
I know you can't really tell us what ur new game is gonna have, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on action vs tactical combat, depth vs complexity etc!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
These developers who had successes have all turned up to have clay feet. Reserve judgment until I actually see it work.
Reserving judgement along with the "clay feet" comment? See what I mean? What, negativity is the new sexy?
Reserving judgment is negative? It is reasonable and what should be the norm.
No, Take the entire comment. Let me rephrase it so you understand me. "ALL of these guys are flawed at what they do. But I'll reserve comment until they do it again."
See what I mean? I'm hope, at this point, that that's not what he meant to say, but many would take it that way.
It is interesting that in a lot of ways, aspects of PvP in games like UO, like mixing PvP and PvE, item loss and loot, are mostly gone in MMOs but are becoming more popular in shooters with the rise of extraction shooters.
EG Escape from Tarkov, Dark and Darker and Hunt Showdown
I am not sure why that is, but I imagine is has something to do with the form of these games, FPS vs RPG.
I can't really comment on UO though, I was a child when it released.
To some, RPG characters are like children in a way. You bring them into a world where they essentially are and have nothing and then shepherd them over time into greatness. You feel their victories along the way and their losses, as though you and they are one in the same. This degree of attachment is fairly common in the players of tabletop RPGs and I think it so for many MMORPG players in regard to their characters.
Outside of that genre, I think players are more inclined to feel their characters to be analogous to a playing piece in a game. They are nothing more than the method of engagement. What they lose has no special sting as each is just an extension of a thing that you have no deep relationship with.
It is interesting that in a lot of ways, aspects of PvP in games like UO, like mixing PvP and PvE, item loss and loot, are mostly gone in MMOs but are becoming more popular in shooters with the rise of extraction shooters.
EG Escape from Tarkov, Dark and Darker and Hunt Showdown
I am not sure why that is, but I imagine is has something to do with the form of these games, FPS vs RPG.
I can't really comment on UO though, I was a child when it released.
Well, it's a case of like minded gamers vs. mixing them with those who don't like it. Do those games have persistent worlds of some sort? If not, that would add to the problem.
It is interesting that in a lot of ways, aspects of PvP in games like UO, like mixing PvP and PvE, item loss and loot, are mostly gone in MMOs but are becoming more popular in shooters with the rise of extraction shooters.
EG Escape from Tarkov, Dark and Darker and Hunt Showdown
I am not sure why that is, but I imagine is has something to do with the form of these games, FPS vs RPG.
I can't really comment on UO though, I was a child when it released.
Well, it's a case of like minded gamers vs. mixing them with those who don't like it. Do those games have persistent worlds of some sort? If not, that would add to the problem.
Persistant worlds no, but persistent characters yes,
Your character has an armory of weapons you collected and you can combine parts to build guns, You pick which guns to take with you on a raid and if you die you lose your stuff.
So the item loss, and risk and reward calculatiom is similar to full loot MMOs.
I wonder if it because in a RPG players have an expectation of constant upward progress. FPS not so much.
Infiniminer for sure the graphical look and mining for sure and Dwarf Fortress is where Minecraft came from in the sim catagory. Let's not connect dots where there are none.
I knew what kind of game I wanted to do pretty much from day one, actually. When I started what would later evolve into Minecraft, the main inspiration was to do something that was a mixture of Dwart Fortress, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Dungeon Keeper, with a big emphasis on keeping the game accessible. I was toying around with a first person mode similar to the Possess spell in Dungeon Keeper when I saw Infiniminer, and that's when the game turned into the first person, hands on type of game it is today.
Wurm Online was literally his preceding project. I do not understand how anyone can say that there was no influence from it on Minecraft, particularly when it's so evident. Wurm was also a very simulationist game. The Minecraft wiki on Fandom has a great list of the overlaps and similarities: https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Wurm_Online
And at the time, he and Rolf Jansson were very upfront that Wurm was intended to push further down UO's path. They were friends who were playing Eve together, when they decided to make the game. Eve early on often positioned itself as "UO in space," for that matter.
UO nor Wurm are inspirations for Minecraft. When asked over and over and over UO nor Wurm is ever mentioned about Minecraft. Other games are mentioned but not either of those. Why is that? Rolf was a big fan of older MMOs and was aiming ro make a Western MMORPG. Persson was not influenced by his help on Wurm anymore than Miyamoto used Mario as an inspiration for Pikmin. Just ridiculous. Not every game made is influenced by your digital co-parented child from 20+ years ago. Let it go.
Comments
"House keys (allowing people to steal everything you own)."
Fixed, as stated.
"Teleportation into houses from higher elevations (again everything is gone)"
I don't know if this was fixed. It was a rare situation, since every house of the first set that had an open roof was the same height, and it was rare to have that elevation otherwise (by terrain).
"Hidden players following people into their house (while hidden), waiting for them to logout then stealing everything they own."
Fixed by means of the "Reveal" command and the "I Ban Thee" command.
"telekinesis through walls (steal everything)"
Fixed. This was related to the back corner bug. They added a corner piece for that corner.
"Portal blocking ganking/ Crates to prevent movement around a portal"
This is directly related to ganking. They tried to set in a Justice System, but in the end the Blue Healer Bug killed it, just before EA hit the Trammel button.
Yes, this was too slow in the making.
Raph won't say it, he doesn't push the blame, but I'm convinced that there were GMs in UO who quietly pushed against this succeeding.
"(patch) naked theives stealing items in town (result) naked theives stealing in town then after guard kills them, friend loots item (FAIL)"
Yeah, mistake that should have been predicted.
"(patch) Having newbs put bounties on PK's (result) PK's get huge bounties accrued then kill themselves with another character free MONEY (FAIL)"
Yeah, again predictable. This is another example of why I think other GMs were working against a working Justice System.
"Trade window scam, where putting overheavy items into a bag causes everything on the receiver to drop on ground after trade completes, scammer picks it up and banks it, AND keeps the money too."
Fixed.
Raph was Lead Designer. That didn't give him total control. There were departments, and those areas were suspect in my mind.
Again, he won't say anything about that, he doesn't pass the buck.
Many games claimed to have a Justice System to protect players (newbs or otherwise).
Look at those scams, where they had "prison", which was really just a quest for the PKers. No punishment at all. That prevailing Dev hardcore thinking, I think, was a problem within UO, too.
This time around, Raph is in complete control. It would be career ruin for him to fail, this time. I don't expect him to fail.
Once upon a time....
This was always my personal reservation with regards to UO and SWG.
The games lacked the necessary cohesiveness to fully engross me in their respective worlds.
Not only was there no punishment whatsoever for ganking in UO, but it was glorified..."Kill other players and take their stuff" was all UO was pretty much known for....It was my first introduction into MMOs....I couldnt believe what I was seeing....I'd barely take a step out of Brittain and would be one shot and insta-killed constantly....After a few days of trying to make it work, a friend introduced me to Everquest (this was late 99).....I never played UO again and never missed playing like that one iota.
Raph although we may not be acquainted on this platform, we have indeed had the pleasure of knowing each other in the past. I want to assure you that I comprehend more than you might anticipate.
In fact, I have engaged in similar discussions in a professional capacity several years ago and I believe you were present.
Continue to continue on.
We will wait to see what you produce.
So am I willing to make compromises in “realism” (a radically overvalued thing in game design, frankly) to make sure that SWG remains someplace where most everybody can feel welcome?
You betcha."
I think it's important to remember that UO was the single largest interactive community ever made, at the time. We made a ton of mistakes. We were suddenly governing a population the size of San Antonio, with a currency stronger than the Italian lira at the time (pre EU), and more ways and freedoms in terms of interaction than anything that had ever been seen online before. You can find articles from 1997 -- on my site even! -- where I lay out this problem.
Infiniminer for sure the graphical look and mining for sure and Dwarf Fortress is where Minecraft came from in the sim catagory.
Let's not connect dots where there are none.
Community heroes: Notch, for Minecraft | PC Gamer
I knew what kind of game I wanted to do pretty much from day one, actually. When I started what would later evolve into Minecraft, the main inspiration was to do something that was a mixture of Dwart Fortress, Rollercoaster Tycoon and Dungeon Keeper, with a big emphasis on keeping the game accessible. I was toying around with a first person mode similar to the Possess spell in Dungeon Keeper when I saw Infiniminer, and that's when the game turned into the first person, hands on type of game it is today.
Heh, well, I have been out directly interacting with players since 1993 or so. Not gonna change that.
EG Escape from Tarkov, Dark and Darker and Hunt Showdown
I am not sure why that is, but I imagine is has something to do with the form of these games, FPS vs RPG.
I can't really comment on UO though, I was a child when it released.
Reserving judgment is negative? It is reasonable and what should be the norm.
Let me rephrase it so you understand me.
"ALL of these guys are flawed at what they do.
But I'll reserve comment until they do it again."
See what I mean? I'm hope, at this point, that that's not what he meant to say, but many would take it that way.
Once upon a time....
To some, RPG characters are like children in a way. You bring them into a world where they essentially are and have nothing and then shepherd them over time into greatness. You feel their victories along the way and their losses, as though you and they are one in the same. This degree of attachment is fairly common in the players of tabletop RPGs and I think it so for many MMORPG players in regard to their characters.
Outside of that genre, I think players are more inclined to feel their characters to be analogous to a playing piece in a game. They are nothing more than the method of engagement. What they lose has no special sting as each is just an extension of a thing that you have no deep relationship with.
Do those games have persistent worlds of some sort? If not, that would add to the problem.
Once upon a time....
Your character has an armory of weapons you collected and you can combine parts to build guns,
You pick which guns to take with you on a raid and if you die you lose your stuff.
So the item loss, and risk and reward calculatiom is similar to full loot MMOs.
I wonder if it because in a RPG players have an expectation of constant upward progress.
FPS not so much.
When asked over and over and over UO nor Wurm is ever mentioned about Minecraft.
Other games are mentioned but not either of those. Why is that? Rolf was a big fan of older MMOs and was aiming ro make a Western MMORPG.
Persson was not influenced by his help on Wurm anymore than Miyamoto used Mario as an inspiration for Pikmin.
Just ridiculous.
Not every game made is influenced by your digital co-parented child from 20+ years ago.
Let it go.