Raph's mention of politics intrigues me in the sense of PvP. I'm wondering if all of the Justice Systems and penalties can be handled though a political system. There are gamers who love to run social actions, and love to spend a lot of time organizing such. When you think about it, those gamers are best suited for something like this. And they can be held accountable to their social group through that same system.
It intrigues me overall, too, because of Raph's style. I don't care for political game play devolving to card games and the like. That really sucks, in my opinion. Politics in an MMORPG deserve to be "real." In all the ways, realistic to reality, in as much as a game includes in its simulation.
By the way, thanks to Raph for his participation here. I'm sure we'll see more from him as time permits and news opens up.
Yes, I want to echo thanks to Raph for engaging us here and looking forward to seeing what comes out of his latest effort, who knows, maybe I'll even like it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I understand that there might be a perception of my approach as unrealistic, but it seems that few others share that belief in this context. The subsequent posts, as well as the majority of the preceding ones, are inquiring about the questions that I encouraged him to take responsibility for. He came here to provide elucidations about his work. I will not shy away in seclusion when he does. I am not overwhelmed by his 'developer label'. He is just some guy who did a thing.
It was more your tone, others are asking questions, you sounded like a member of the Secret Police interrogating a suspect for historical crimes.
I stand by what I said and how I said it. I could care less what some else thinks.
I think you mean you couldn't care less. Or are you trying to say you really do care about what we think?
Sorry.
Not my first language.
Must respect then. I speak but one language, and I'm not great at it. So I totally respect folks that can communicate in multiple languages.
I feel I do well enough and then I make a mistake like that one and I am reminded that I still have work to do.
It all started with watching English cartoons with my son.
Three years of German in High School, totally wasted, can't speak a word 45 plus years later. (Ms. Huegal would be disappointed in me)
Apparently I was doing it wrong, but didn't have access to German language cartoons which might have actually worked better for me.
If you hadn't mentioned it I would never have known English was a 2nd language, as someone else said your written presentation is better than many people born here in the US.
My wife has a grandfather who didn't speak much English, or speak it very well, but he totally understood it from watching 30 years of baseball on TV but he rarely let on how well he understood as I'm sure it was to his advantage to listen when people thought he didn't understand them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Raph's mention of politics intrigues me in the sense of PvP. I'm wondering if all of the Justice Systems and penalties can be handled though a political system. There are gamers who love to run social actions, and love to spend a lot of time organizing such. When you think about it, those gamers are best suited for something like this. And they can be held accountable to their social group through that same system.
Yeah sounds like just another system for hardcore PVPers to beat down on casual PVEers. They will make the rules that advantage them, and everyone else will be jacked.
Nobody is asking for this system, it sounds like another desperate move to be different without any concept of the issues between PVP and PVE players are.
It only takes 1 retarded system to ruin an amazing game. Raph seems to want to prove that over and over again.
Raph's mention of politics intrigues me in the sense of PvP. I'm wondering if all of the Justice Systems and penalties can be handled though a political system. There are gamers who love to run social actions, and love to spend a lot of time organizing such. When you think about it, those gamers are best suited for something like this. And they can be held accountable to their social group through that same system.
Yeah sounds like just another system for hardcore PVPers to beat down on casual PVEers. They will make the rules that advantage them, and everyone else will be jacked.
Nobody is asking for this system, it sounds like another desperate move to be different without any concept of the issues between PVP and PVE players are.
It only takes 1 retarded system to ruin an amazing game. Raph seems to want to prove that over and over again.
@Brainy is not wrong though about what he's saying. Many times players twist the rules and systems in ways the developers never realises is possible or used in manners to punish players
Sorry my post was unedited and in error before. I meant to emphasize @Brainy 's point because I've witnessed systems placed to help and promote fairer ecosystems being used to oppress players who PvE instead. The good thing about it is players no longer stick around and sufffer the abuse.
Yeah you can call us a lot of names and being responsible for cascading an exodus but you design a system and make sure you fix it fast if abuse occurs because our tolerance is very short. Tired of being told over and over again how this game or that game is going to respect my time and playstyle but in reality you just want us to populate the game or are just plain clueless.
Every developer seems to think they have found the way to make it work but in reality after 6 months their game is left with a few guilds who are fighting for dominance while the bulk of the players have sadly left. No matter how cool and great a game is these days players always expect thier time and playstyle to be respected and not used as a springboard for someone else's ambitions and glory. I do play PvP games but I have long since given up having any faith in the systems to be what I as a PvE player dream to be in a game.
There is one other aspect people often forget when talking about an MMORPG. The streamers and their followers. No matter how carefully you design your game these streamers whose goal is to earn money and popularize their channel will get thier followers to do things to skewer the balance and ruin things for them to look good while others in the game suffer. Needless acts of destroying the economy or other systems by sheer brute force of their numbers because they need their channel to be watched.
Developers cater to them shsmeslessly to court their followers and when the streamer decides they've made all they can they leave and take their followers with them and suddenly the game is perceived to have tanked or doing poorly because so and so left.
There is one other aspect people often forget when talking about an MMORPG. The streamers and their followers. No matter how carefully you design your game these streamers whose goal is to earn money and popularize their channel will get thier followers to do things to skewer the balance and ruin things for them to look good while others in the game suffer. Needless acts of destroying the economy or other systems by sheer brute force of their numbers because they need their channel to be watched.
Developers cater to them shsmeslessly to court their followers and when the streamer decides they've made all they can they leave and take their followers with them and suddenly the game is perceived to have tanked or doing poorly because so and so left.
Making your systems streamer proof is hard.
Players in game have always been a problem, but who could have predicted how much of a problem players in game could cause because of out of game reasons? That would have seemed impossible back in the day. I take on board they are fans, but they can be the bane of a server, having servers marked for streamers shows that's what a lot of the playerbase thinks too.
@Brainy is not wrong though about what he's saying. Many times players twist the rules and systems in ways the developers never realises is possible or used in manners to punish players
Sorry my post was unedited and in error before. I meant to emphasize @Brainy 's point because I've witnessed systems placed to help and promote fairer ecosystems being used to oppress players who PvE instead. The good thing about it is players no longer stick around and sufffer the abuse.
Yeah you can call us a lot of names and being responsible for cascading an exodus but you design a system and make sure you fix it fast if abuse occurs because our tolerance is very short. Tired of being told over and over again how this game or that game is going to respect my time and playstyle but in reality you just want us to populate the game or are just plain clueless.
Every developer seems to think they have found the way to make it work but in reality after 6 months their game is left with a few guilds who are fighting for dominance while the bulk of the players have sadly left. No matter how cool and great a game is these days players always expect thier time and playstyle to be respected and not used as a springboard for someone else's ambitions and glory. I do play PvP games but I have long since given up having any faith in the systems to be what I as a PvE player dream to be in a game.
A lot has been learned about the griefer's mindset over the years. They are predictable now, and it's easy (though requires a lot of thought) to jump into their mindset and look for the holes they would use. Raph has proven that he's against the abuse, just as he explained that it wasn't in SWG, his next game right after UO. I think it's a case of faith (or not) in Raph. After all these years of watching him, and seeing the details he's explained over all this time (on everything related or not), I have faith.
We may see something very much like SWG's PvP system, maybe advanced some. He said something about players not understanding that they could end up temporarily in a faction, and that sounds like an issue he'd address. More evidence that he's got this.
A lot has been learned about the griefer's mindset over the years. They are predictable now, and it's easy (though requires a lot of thought) to jump into their mindset and look for the holes they would use. Raph has proven that he's against the abuse, just as he explained that it wasn't in SWG, his next game right after UO. I think it's a case of faith (or not) in Raph. After all these years of watching him, and seeing the details he's explained over all this time (on everything related or not), I have faith.
We may see something very much like SWG's PvP system, maybe advanced some. He said something about players not understanding that they could end up temporarily in a faction, and that sounds like an issue he'd address. More evidence that he's got this.
You know what else is predictable? Dev teams that mix these populations together and are somehow surprised when bad stuff happens.
I am not saying Raph wasnt trying to fix the problems. My point is that he doesnt have the correct scope of the problem. He is trying to drain an ocean of bad behavior one full bucket at a time.
The chronology is straightforward: the PK problem was bad, it chased away tons of players. Then EQ came out -- which wasn't for a while -- and many players went over there. Trammel went in after that, and the game started to grow and doubled in size.
It reached its peak AFTER the period you mention.
Ergo, PKing didn't kill the game. (It's also not only still alive, but has a pretty large gray shard scene, so it hasn't actually "met its demise" yet either -- but I get that you're speaking in terms of market dominance).
I agree with your timeline but dont agree with your conclusion. UO was continuing to gain in subs but was losing market share because its reputation was established. UO needed to pivot to PVE bosses and PVE dungeon faster vs pushing into PVP factions and other PVP mechanics.
History is full of companies that were growing while at the same time losing drastically in marketshare. Then eventually are phased out.
UO lost its advantage which was being first to market.
We will just have to agree to disagree here, because we will never know what would have happened if UO switched and opened up a bunch of PVE servers, and focused on PVE instead before EQ got a foothold.
I kind of agree with Raph on this one.
Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO.
Until we see a decent budget PVE focused sandbox with wow style raid/dungeons/bosses made for the average gamer, we wont know until that game is made how actual large that market will be. Raph admits that the PVE safe zone spiked the numbers. I believe 3 years after launch, it was 1-2 years too late.
What we do know is there is a large playerbase wanting this. How big is not known atm.
All we have now on PVE side are indie PVE's with superfringe mechanics. OR AAA kiddie games where the game is handed too you. We dont get any new fantasy MMO's games directed at average gamers like WoW/DAOC/UO (after Trammel), that have PVE/PVP on separate servers.
I think the first AAA dev to make a game in any of these styles is going to be huge.
The chronology is straightforward: the PK problem was bad, it chased away tons of players. Then EQ came out -- which wasn't for a while -- and many players went over there. Trammel went in after that, and the game started to grow and doubled in size.
It reached its peak AFTER the period you mention.
Ergo, PKing didn't kill the game. (It's also not only still alive, but has a pretty large gray shard scene, so it hasn't actually "met its demise" yet either -- but I get that you're speaking in terms of market dominance).
I agree with your timeline but dont agree with your conclusion. UO was continuing to gain in subs but was losing market share because its reputation was established. UO needed to pivot to PVE bosses and PVE dungeon faster vs pushing into PVP factions and other PVP mechanics.
History is full of companies that were growing while at the same time losing drastically in marketshare. Then eventually are phased out.
UO lost its advantage which was being first to market.
We will just have to agree to disagree here, because we will never know what would have happened if UO switched and opened up a bunch of PVE servers, and focused on PVE instead before EQ got a foothold.
I kind of agree with Raph on this one.
Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO.
Until we see a decent budget PVE focused sandbox with wow style raid/dungeons/bosses made for the average gamer, we wont know until that game is made how actual large that market will be. Raph admits that the PVE safe zone spiked the numbers. I believe 3 years after launch, it was 1-2 years too late.
What we do know is there is a large playerbase wanting this. How big is not known atm.
All we have now on PVE side are indie PVE's with superfringe mechanics. OR AAA kiddie games where the game is handed too you. We dont get any new fantasy MMO's games directed at average gamers like WoW/DAOC/UO (after Trammel), that have PVE/PVP on separate servers.
I think the first AAA dev to make a game in any of these styles is going to be huge.
"Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO."
Isn't that exactly what Raph said games should NOT DO?
Quoting Raph from this thread: "Frankly, the games where PKing is still a major problem are the modern sandboxes which are too imitative of original UO and turn into gankboxes. And I agree, bad idea!"
Why you continue to place Raph in with those sorts of developers, and won't recognize that he won't make that mistake again, is beyond me. He's proven that he won't by SWG, and he continues to stake that claim.
I remember a quote from Raph from the SWG pre-release days. "UO lost players in the 6 figure range because of PKing. I kid you not." He was talking to players that wanted another UO style of PvP design. UO had a peak of around 250,000 before Trammel, I think. So losing something north of 100,000 specifically because of PKing was a lot.
He's not going to make another PvP mistake like what happened >in the very first< true MMORPG.
The chronology is straightforward: the PK problem was bad, it chased away tons of players. Then EQ came out -- which wasn't for a while -- and many players went over there. Trammel went in after that, and the game started to grow and doubled in size.
It reached its peak AFTER the period you mention.
Ergo, PKing didn't kill the game. (It's also not only still alive, but has a pretty large gray shard scene, so it hasn't actually "met its demise" yet either -- but I get that you're speaking in terms of market dominance).
I agree with your timeline but dont agree with your conclusion. UO was continuing to gain in subs but was losing market share because its reputation was established. UO needed to pivot to PVE bosses and PVE dungeon faster vs pushing into PVP factions and other PVP mechanics.
History is full of companies that were growing while at the same time losing drastically in marketshare. Then eventually are phased out.
UO lost its advantage which was being first to market.
We will just have to agree to disagree here, because we will never know what would have happened if UO switched and opened up a bunch of PVE servers, and focused on PVE instead before EQ got a foothold.
I kind of agree with Raph on this one.
Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO.
Until we see a decent budget PVE focused sandbox with wow style raid/dungeons/bosses made for the average gamer, we wont know until that game is made how actual large that market will be. Raph admits that the PVE safe zone spiked the numbers. I believe 3 years after launch, it was 1-2 years too late.
What we do know is there is a large playerbase wanting this. How big is not known atm.
All we have now on PVE side are indie PVE's with superfringe mechanics. OR AAA kiddie games where the game is handed too you. We dont get any new fantasy MMO's games directed at average gamers like WoW/DAOC/UO (after Trammel), that have PVE/PVP on separate servers.
I think the first AAA dev to make a game in any of these styles is going to be huge.
"Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO."
Isn't that exactly what Raph said games should NOT DO?
Quoting Raph from this thread: "Frankly, the games where PKing is still a major problem are the modern sandboxes which are too imitative of original UO and turn into gankboxes. And I agree, bad idea!"
Why you continue to place Raph in with those sorts of developers, and won't recognize that he won't make that mistake again, is beyond me. He's proven that he won't by SWG, and he continues to stake that claim.
I remember a quote from Raph from the SWG pre-release days. "UO lost players in the 6 figure range because of PKing. I kid you not." He was talking to players that wanted another UO style of PvP design. UO had a peak of around 250,000 before Trammel, I think. So losing something north of 100,000 specifically because of PKing was a lot.
He's not going to make another PvP mistake like what happened >in the very first< true MMORPG.
Well first I didnt say Raph made every gankfest modeled off UO. The point I was making is we wont know if a PVE and PVP separated sandbox AAA title will be extremely popular until one is actually made to judge against. The closest thing is UO (post Trammel) but even in that they were still focused on PVP with Factions release AND were 3 years too late. If UO would have totally reversed years before EQ even came out, they would never have lost all the PVE players, and EQ would have had a tougher hill to climb.
In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if he implements a political system that lets players decide if ganking/griefing is allowed or not allowed. He doesnt understand that PVP players are generally much more competitive and will get themselves into position to change the rules or find ways to break the rules. Sure he will continue trying to bail the ocean with a bucket for his 20 patches... Here we go again....
The chronology is straightforward: the PK problem was bad, it chased away tons of players. Then EQ came out -- which wasn't for a while -- and many players went over there. Trammel went in after that, and the game started to grow and doubled in size.
It reached its peak AFTER the period you mention.
Ergo, PKing didn't kill the game. (It's also not only still alive, but has a pretty large gray shard scene, so it hasn't actually "met its demise" yet either -- but I get that you're speaking in terms of market dominance).
I agree with your timeline but dont agree with your conclusion. UO was continuing to gain in subs but was losing market share because its reputation was established. UO needed to pivot to PVE bosses and PVE dungeon faster vs pushing into PVP factions and other PVP mechanics.
History is full of companies that were growing while at the same time losing drastically in marketshare. Then eventually are phased out.
UO lost its advantage which was being first to market.
We will just have to agree to disagree here, because we will never know what would have happened if UO switched and opened up a bunch of PVE servers, and focused on PVE instead before EQ got a foothold.
I kind of agree with Raph on this one.
Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO.
Until we see a decent budget PVE focused sandbox with wow style raid/dungeons/bosses made for the average gamer, we wont know until that game is made how actual large that market will be. Raph admits that the PVE safe zone spiked the numbers. I believe 3 years after launch, it was 1-2 years too late.
What we do know is there is a large playerbase wanting this. How big is not known atm.
All we have now on PVE side are indie PVE's with superfringe mechanics. OR AAA kiddie games where the game is handed too you. We dont get any new fantasy MMO's games directed at average gamers like WoW/DAOC/UO (after Trammel), that have PVE/PVP on separate servers.
I think the first AAA dev to make a game in any of these styles is going to be huge.
"Well we will never know until someone makes a game. All we have is these PVP gankfest games modeled off UO."
Isn't that exactly what Raph said games should NOT DO?
Quoting Raph from this thread: "Frankly, the games where PKing is still a major problem are the modern sandboxes which are too imitative of original UO and turn into gankboxes. And I agree, bad idea!"
Why you continue to place Raph in with those sorts of developers, and won't recognize that he won't make that mistake again, is beyond me. He's proven that he won't by SWG, and he continues to stake that claim.
I remember a quote from Raph from the SWG pre-release days. "UO lost players in the 6 figure range because of PKing. I kid you not." He was talking to players that wanted another UO style of PvP design. UO had a peak of around 250,000 before Trammel, I think. So losing something north of 100,000 specifically because of PKing was a lot.
He's not going to make another PvP mistake like what happened >in the very first< true MMORPG.
Well first I didnt say Raph made every gankfest modeled off UO. The point I was making is we wont know if a PVE and PVP separated sandbox AAA title will be extremely popular until one is actually made to judge against. The closest thing is UO (post Trammel) but even in that they were still focused on PVP with Factions release AND were 3 years too late. If UO would have totally reversed years before EQ even came out, they would never have lost all the PVE players, and EQ would have had a tougher hill to climb.
In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if he implements a political system that lets players decide if ganking/griefing is allowed or not allowed. He doesnt understand that PVP players are generally much more competitive and will get themselves into position to change the rules or find ways to break the rules. Sure he will continue trying to bail the ocean with a bucket for his 20 patches... Here we go again....
"In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are."
This is the point that I have a beef with. He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it. Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
"In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are."
This is the point that I have a beef with. He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it. Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
You already said before UO was not predictable because it hasnt happened yet. So what makes you think you can predict this new system will work as intended?
I didnt play SWG so I cannot say if that system worked without issues or not. I seriously doubt anything with Full Loot PVP doesnt drive PVE players out.
We will have to see, I will remain extremely skeptical until I see details. Already I can see the potential problems, just like in UO.
"In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are."
This is the point that I have a beef with. He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it. Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
You already said before UO was not predictable because it hasnt happened yet. So what makes you think you can predict this new system will work as intended?
I didnt play SWG so I cannot say if that system worked without issues or not. I seriously doubt anything with Full Loot PVP doesnt drive PVE players out.
We will have to see, I will remain extremely skeptical until I see details. Already I can see the potential problems, just like in UO.
Because once you see it, you start to understand the PKer mindset. Most people don't have such total disregard for other players, so that sort of thing just doesn't cross their minds until they see it happen.
Once the first MMORPG came about, we could all see it. Until then, who would have thought it?
"In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are."
This is the point that I have a beef with. He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it. Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
You already said before UO was not predictable because it hasnt happened yet. So what makes you think you can predict this new system will work as intended?
I didnt play SWG so I cannot say if that system worked without issues or not. I seriously doubt anything with Full Loot PVP doesnt drive PVE players out.
We will have to see, I will remain extremely skeptical until I see details. Already I can see the potential problems, just like in UO.
Because once you see it, you start to understand the PKer mindset. Most people don't have such total disregard for other players, so that sort of thing just doesn't cross their minds until they see it happen.
Once the first MMORPG came about, we could all see it. Until then, who would have thought it?
You keep debating this pre-release. First they did see it for years and still didnt fix the problems until much later. I am not debating they probably could not have figured this out until testing it. But many of these fixes didnt happen for 2-3 years after release.
This is why I said its a train track situation. I am not saying you have to predict when the train will come, but when you see the train on the track barrelling towards you, its time to get off the track.
He admits the Pve safe zone patch spiked the player numbers and was very popular, yet was adamently against it. Yet all his patch fixes were driving players away from UO.
He is probably just a very very slow and stubborn thinker. Is only able to adapt after seeing the solution from someone else. Even with the solution staring him in the face he still was not able to identify and execute it, someone else had to do it for him.
Even during the time, everytime patch notes were released, everybody I knew that it would not fix the problem and was not even close to enough. If pretty much all the players knew, then why would the lead dev not know that the patch was not a proper fix?
I had the same problem with the Embers Adrift lead dev, I explained to him 2 years in advance how to fix his game. He was adament against the changes "Then", "Now" when its too late, he is suddenly open. Too late man, the fixes are just 1/10 of what is needed and way to late to matter.
Raph was doing the same thing, way to late, and not able to correctly identify the extent of the problem.
"In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are."
This is the point that I have a beef with. He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it. Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
You already said before UO was not predictable because it hasnt happened yet. So what makes you think you can predict this new system will work as intended?
I didnt play SWG so I cannot say if that system worked without issues or not. I seriously doubt anything with Full Loot PVP doesnt drive PVE players out.
We will have to see, I will remain extremely skeptical until I see details. Already I can see the potential problems, just like in UO.
Because once you see it, you start to understand the PKer mindset. Most people don't have such total disregard for other players, so that sort of thing just doesn't cross their minds until they see it happen.
Once the first MMORPG came about, we could all see it. Until then, who would have thought it?
You keep debating this pre-release. First they did see it for years and still didnt fix the problems until much later. I am not debating they probably could not have figured this out until testing it. But many of these fixes didnt happen for 2-3 years after release.
This is why I said its a train track situation. I am not saying you have to predict when the train will come, but when you see the train on the track barrelling towards you, its time to get off the track.
He admits the Pve safe zone patch spiked the player numbers and was very popular, yet was adamently against it. Yet all his patch fixes were driving players away from UO.
He is probably just a very very slow and stubborn thinker. Is only able to adapt after seeing the solution from someone else. Even with the solution staring him in the face he still was not able to identify and execute it, someone else had to do it for him.
Even during the time, everytime patch notes were released, everybody I knew that it would not fix the problem and was not even close to enough. If pretty much all the players knew, then why would the lead dev not know that the patch was not a proper fix?
I had the same problem with the Embers Adrift lead dev, I explained to him 2 years in advance how to fix his game. He was adament against the changes "Then", "Now" when its too late, he is suddenly open. Too late man, the fixes are just 1/10 of what is needed and way to late to matter.
Raph was doing the same thing, way to late, and not able to correctly identify the extent of the problem.
We're at that point where we're repeating ourselves. Been there, done that (too many times), and I don't do it anymore. You'll have the opportunity to read all about it at some point. and decide then. Or decide now, as you seem to want to do.
I am far more interested in what Jake Song is doing next. (AA2) He has been doing MMORPGs longer than just about anyone on the planet and I prefer Jake's vision.
I am far more interested in what Jake Song is doing next. (AA2) He has been doing MMORPGs longer than just about anyone on the planet and I prefer Jake's vision.
Well, to each their own. I don't know much detail about his games, why don't you start a thread and talk about his vision and where he's taking MMORPGs? Might be interesting.
Comments
But probably not...I don't like much of anything.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Apparently I was doing it wrong, but didn't have access to German language cartoons which might have actually worked better for me.
If you hadn't mentioned it I would never have known English was a 2nd language, as someone else said your written presentation is better than many people born here in the US.
My wife has a grandfather who didn't speak much English, or speak it very well, but he totally understood it from watching 30 years of baseball on TV but he rarely let on how well he understood as I'm sure it was to his advantage to listen when people thought he didn't understand them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nobody is asking for this system, it sounds like another desperate move to be different without any concept of the issues between PVP and PVE players are.
It only takes 1 retarded system to ruin an amazing game. Raph seems to want to prove that over and over again.
Once upon a time....
They are predictable now, and it's easy (though requires a lot of thought) to jump into their mindset and look for the holes they would use.
Raph has proven that he's against the abuse, just as he explained that it wasn't in SWG, his next game right after UO.
I think it's a case of faith (or not) in Raph. After all these years of watching him, and seeing the details he's explained over all this time (on everything related or not), I have faith.
We may see something very much like SWG's PvP system, maybe advanced some.
He said something about players not understanding that they could end up temporarily in a faction, and that sounds like an issue he'd address.
More evidence that he's got this.
Once upon a time....
I am not saying Raph wasnt trying to fix the problems. My point is that he doesnt have the correct scope of the problem. He is trying to drain an ocean of bad behavior one full bucket at a time.
I think the first AAA dev to make a game in any of these styles is going to be huge.
Isn't that exactly what Raph said games should NOT DO?
Quoting Raph from this thread:
"Frankly, the games where PKing is still a major problem are the modern sandboxes which are too imitative of original UO and turn into gankboxes. And I agree, bad idea!"
Why you continue to place Raph in with those sorts of developers, and won't recognize that he won't make that mistake again, is beyond me. He's proven that he won't by SWG, and he continues to stake that claim.
I remember a quote from Raph from the SWG pre-release days.
"UO lost players in the 6 figure range because of PKing. I kid you not."
He was talking to players that wanted another UO style of PvP design.
UO had a peak of around 250,000 before Trammel, I think. So losing something north of 100,000 specifically because of PKing was a lot.
He's not going to make another PvP mistake like what happened >in the very first< true MMORPG.
Once upon a time....
In regards to Raph making similiar mistakes. Yeah he probably wont make the "SAME EXACT" mistake, but I have no doubt he will misjudge again. Mainly because he doesnt understand how different these communities are.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if he implements a political system that lets players decide if ganking/griefing is allowed or not allowed. He doesnt understand that PVP players are generally much more competitive and will get themselves into position to change the rules or find ways to break the rules. Sure he will continue trying to bail the ocean with a bucket for his 20 patches... Here we go again....
This is the point that I have a beef with.
He made SWG with a PvP system that worked without issues, no misjudging with it.
Doesn't that tell you anything? Anything at all?
For politics, if he uses that in any way for PvP, he's not going to allow PvP guilds to make laws that remove protections that other guilds set for their members.
Edit, I removed some spit balling, due to the bias shown, and lack of willingness to discuss possibilities.
Once upon a time....
You already said before UO was not predictable because it hasnt happened yet. So what makes you think you can predict this new system will work as intended?
I didnt play SWG so I cannot say if that system worked without issues or not. I seriously doubt anything with Full Loot PVP doesnt drive PVE players out.
We will have to see, I will remain extremely skeptical until I see details. Already I can see the potential problems, just like in UO.
Most people don't have such total disregard for other players, so that sort of thing just doesn't cross their minds until they see it happen.
Once the first MMORPG came about, we could all see it. Until then, who would have thought it?
Once upon a time....
This is why I said its a train track situation. I am not saying you have to predict when the train will come, but when you see the train on the track barrelling towards you, its time to get off the track.
He admits the Pve safe zone patch spiked the player numbers and was very popular, yet was adamently against it. Yet all his patch fixes were driving players away from UO.
He is probably just a very very slow and stubborn thinker. Is only able to adapt after seeing the solution from someone else. Even with the solution staring him in the face he still was not able to identify and execute it, someone else had to do it for him.
Even during the time, everytime patch notes were released, everybody I knew that it would not fix the problem and was not even close to enough. If pretty much all the players knew, then why would the lead dev not know that the patch was not a proper fix?
I had the same problem with the Embers Adrift lead dev, I explained to him 2 years in advance how to fix his game. He was adament against the changes "Then", "Now" when its too late, he is suddenly open. Too late man, the fixes are just 1/10 of what is needed and way to late to matter.
Raph was doing the same thing, way to late, and not able to correctly identify the extent of the problem.
You'll have the opportunity to read all about it at some point. and decide then. Or decide now, as you seem to want to do.
Once upon a time....
He has been doing MMORPGs longer than just about anyone on the planet and I prefer Jake's vision.
I don't know much detail about his games, why don't you start a thread and talk about his vision and where he's taking MMORPGs? Might be interesting.
Edit: or do it in this thread.
Once upon a time....