I think of horizontal progression as providing contextual advantage.
In Ultima Online a silver mace would allow you to mow through liches, and while you could kill them with regular weapons, the silver weapons allowed you to farm liches. However, if a PK showed up your sliver weapon offered no advantage.
Imagine the same thing for different dungeons: Fire gear to hunt imps, cold gear to hunt ice drakes - all the different gear that offers advantages in a context but do nothing for vertical progression in a PvP context.
Suddenly, a PK hunting other players in the imp dungeon has to make a choice. Does he wear the fire protection gear or wear stuff to protect against player attacks? If he's outfitted to only fight other players he'll be in some hurt should he aggro a couple of imps.
DDO offers this, but DDO is not a PvP Game.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
The last thing I want when doing a dungeon crawl is some asshole attacking me, no idea why anyone would think that is fun.
I mean, fuck all, if that is what you love, I hope you find a game you can enjoy, but to me, I would sooner have a mule kick me in the nuts then deal with that bullshit.
What about a mob attacking you?
Probably not a big deal.
The player is usually smarter.I’m guessing it’s more about the attitude of some players rather than being attacked.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I propose that if horizontal progression is truly horizontal that it is also not progression. If ability A and ability B are truly equal in power, then playing the game to earn ability B when you already have ability A is a waste of time.
Noodle on that.
Truly horizontal progression is still progression. Though expanding the range of things of equal power a character can do it becomes more powerful overall.
The character is at least as powerful as the sum of it's parts. If any of those parts have synergy the character is more powerful than that sum would suggest.
Most of what you listed are huge tactical advantages in a PVP game.
Run speed / reduced fall damage as they permit a team to have extreme mobility on how or when to engage in a fight.
Resistance against specific damage type, or ability to overcome resistance of targets, PVP or PVE were a Hallmark of DAOC, along with run speed advantages.
Definitely not horizontal in nature, some were vital to ensure success and woe to a team which didn't have them.
Yeah, I agree. I've struggled to think of "horizontal" progression that doesn't give more power. And in some cases, like you mentioned, it's pretty big power.
Even gaining missile weapons, at the same power as melee, it makes a big difference if you can plunk a few arrows into an opponent before they get to you. And it matters just as much in PvE, as far as the outcome.
Choice
OR (instead of AND)
That's how you make horizontal progression genuinely horizontal. Think of ESO or Wildstar's limited action bars.
You can only use a new skill if you remove an old one. You gain something, but lose something else. The player is then faced with a choice (the heart of roleplaying....) about which skill they want to use. As long as each skill is roughly the same in power, then unlocking new skills would remain horizontal progression. You're giving the player more and more choices, but they are still limited in how many things they can have at once.
Another factor with ESO is that new equipment sets added with expansions are not intended to escalate in power. Rather, they are meant to expand the range of set choices.
I think of horizontal progression as providing contextual advantage.
In Ultima Online a silver mace would allow you to mow through liches, and while you could kill them with regular weapons, the silver weapons allowed you to farm liches. However, if a PK showed up your sliver weapon offered no advantage.
Imagine the same thing for different dungeons: Fire gear to hunt imps, cold gear to hunt ice drakes - all the different gear that offers advantages in a context but do nothing for vertical progression in a PvP context.
Suddenly, a PK hunting other players in the imp dungeon has to make a choice. Does he wear the fire protection gear or wear stuff to protect against player attacks? If he's outfitted to only fight other players he'll be in some hurt should he aggro a couple of imps.
DDO offers this, but DDO is not a PvP Game.
Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO.
The last thing I want when doing a dungeon crawl is some asshole attacking me, no idea why anyone would think that is fun.
I mean, fuck all, if that is what you love, I hope you find a game you can enjoy, but to me, I would sooner have a mule kick me in the nuts then deal with that bullshit.
What about a mob attacking you?
Probably not a big deal.
The player is usually smarter.I’m guessing it’s more about the attitude of some players rather than being attacked.
Also, engagement. In almost all cases, the player controls the engagement with Mobs.
I mean, not sure what MMO you play, but, I have yet to play one where the Mob AI is such that the mob tracks you down, wait's till you preoccupied, and then jumps out of some kind of invisibility, doing a massively high DPS rotation, and kills you
YMMV.
But that has been my experience with random open world PvP in every MMO I have ever played, ever in the last 20+ years of playing MMO's
It's one thing when I expect it, like going into a PvP Arena, but dealing with that bullshit when I am trying to do something like a dungeon crawl, again, If that floats your boat, I wish you only the best
You would have to pay me to put up with that shit however, as there would be no way I would play that kind of game and deal with that bullshit, for free, or worse, pay for the privilege to suffer thought it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
"Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO."
Its all about the money.....Without it they may lose a decent chunk of revenue without trying to lure in the PVPers....Just remember in this industry, it is ALWAYS about the money.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
And yet... Most MMOs are not doing it. Was one of my fav parts os ESO. I could play what story or zone I wanted when I wanted. Really wish this would be the norm. And ESO could have done a better job of it.
The journey in a game shouldn't be defined by the words we use to describe how we progress, it should be defined by just that; 'the journey'
A lunch line is just a lunch line, and a ride up and down an elevator is just a elevator ride; that part of the obvious pathing should never have to be explained or broken apart down to it's little details, because if that's all there is to focus on, then that's the problem right there.
A good rpg makes you forget about your level, and a good story makes you forget where you are going.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013 Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005 Fishing in RL since 1992 Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
"Honestly, I do not get the boner fixation with needing PvP in an MMO."
Its all about the money.....Without it they may lose a decent chunk of revenue without trying to lure in the PVPers....Just remember in this industry, it is ALWAYS about the money.
Personally I think PvP in MMO's, unless controlled and separated from PvE, does more harm than good, as it drives away the PvE players.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
Scaling has the problem of losing that feeling of progressing for the players. Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place. (I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
Scaling has the problem of losing that feeling of progressing for the players. Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place. (I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
I enjoyed the scaling in GW2, as it made it feel like the world was expanding as you leveled up.
It also allowed me to return and play with my friends that were just starting the game, so it felt like I was ahead of the (at least till they capped), while still being able to play with them.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
Scaling has the problem of losing that feeling of progressing for the players. Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place. (I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
I enjoyed the scaling in GW2, as it made it feel like the world was expanding as you leveled up.
It also allowed me to return and play with my friends that were just starting the game, so it felt like I was ahead of the (at least till they capped), while still being able to play with them.
This argument has been used for scaling before, but you just need a level to zone while in group to achieve the same effect.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
Scaling has the problem of losing that feeling of progressing for the players. Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place. (I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
I enjoyed the scaling in GW2, as it made it feel like the world was expanding as you leveled up.
It also allowed me to return and play with my friends that were just starting the game, so it felt like I was ahead of the (at least till they capped), while still being able to play with them.
This argument has been used for scaling before, but you just need a level to zone while in group to achieve the same effect.
You know, GW2 also Up-levels you for WvW, and I think Southsun, and it's not really as good, as in GW2 leveling unlocks abilities and traits, so you won't have those available to you.
IMHO, leveling in GW2 is more a "Tutorial" then an actual part of the game, once you make 80th, collecting and acquiring level tomes becomes very easy, to the point that I have not leveled ant alt outside the bank in the years.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
This thread makes me think of Everquest Next. They planed on a few starter zones where the mobs would be slightly easier. Less mechanics in the battles. Out side of that, every zone would be the same level difficulty. All levels and skills progressed in complexity but not in power. Fire balls skill did the same damage no matter how much you progressed, but instead the skill can add depth. Morph the skill to do a stun, % of the damage could be a dot. This would make the entire world worth playing no matter how long you played the game.
I feel like you're missing the "cut and paste" beauty of current systems. Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
Scaling has the problem of losing that feeling of progressing for the players. Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place. (I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
I enjoyed the scaling in GW2, as it made it feel like the world was expanding as you leveled up.
It also allowed me to return and play with my friends that were just starting the game, so it felt like I was ahead of the (at least till they capped), while still being able to play with them.
This argument has been used for scaling before, but you just need a level to zone while in group to achieve the same effect.
You know, GW2 also Up-levels you for WvW, and I think Southsun, and it's not really as good, as in GW2 leveling unlocks abilities and traits, so you won't have those available to you.
IMHO, leveling in GW2 is more a "Tutorial" then an actual part of the game, once you make 80th, collecting and acquiring level tomes becomes very easy, to the point that I have not leveled ant alt outside the bank in the years.
The "buddy" system as I think it was called in CoH is not done universally well, where as if a MMO is going to use scaling they are going to spend a lot of time on that. So yes, I can well believe that some buddy systems are not as good as scaling systems, but that's a fault of implementation, it does not mean scaling is the better system.
Scaling systems have to exist. When there aren't enough players to force group play and distract from the graph progression, scaling offers that distraction and keeps immersion for the players that don't have enough friends. It also helps with mentoring.
ungood said: "Personally, I think PvP in MMO's, unless controlled and separated from PvE, does more harm than good, as it drives away the PvE players." PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
ungood said: "Personally, I think PvP in MMO's, unless controlled and separated from PvE, does more harm than good, as it drives away the PvE players." PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
What the hell did you take before posting that?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
ungood said: "Personally, I think PvP in MMO's, unless controlled and separated from PvE, does more harm than good, as it drives away the PvE players." PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
What the hell did you take before posting that?
I didn't take anything. I have extensive experience at crafting and running virtual businesses to poison the war efforts of PvP players. You should try to challenge yourself sometime and play the cartel crafter that deals dark potions to casual players that just want to be part of something they feel left out of. They will pay anything to not feel left out. One day I hope I can aspire to be a white gold farmer and sell desperate players in-game money for real money. That's how I play games.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
What a skewed point of view, PvE players play PvP games and even if it is in the business area it is a vital part of the game. To call it poison and describe as such seems to be a very bitter and disenchanted point of view.
You do not get to decide what PvE players do and how to categorize them. Players make their own spaces and decide what they can accept and tolerate as far as PvP goes. It is this high handed attitude that often accompanies a PvP game that I find distasteful. Don't tell me what I can and cannot play and do not put me in a subset. I will decide for myself whether I am a PvE player.
They definitely are PvE players in PvP games otherwise developers would not be desperately trying for their money in every conceivable way and often diluting their game to accommodate them and in the process piss off their PvP base.
PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
What a skewed point of view, PvE players play PvP games and even if it is in the business area it is a vital part of the game. To call it poison and describe as such seems to be a very bitter and disenchanted point of view.
You do not get to decide what PvE players do and how to categorize them. Players make their own spaces and decide what they can accept and tolerate as far as PvP goes. It is this high handed attitude that often accompanies a PvP game that I find distasteful. Don't tell me what I can and cannot play and do not put me in a subset. I will decide for myself whether I am a PvE player.
They definitely are PvE players in PvP games otherwise developers would not be desperately trying for their money in every conceivable way and often diluting their game to accommodate them and in the process piss off their PvP base.
I'm truly delighted at how personal you took my post. You stated, " To call it poison and describe as such seems to be a very bitter and disenchanted point of view."
I used the word poison because alchemists craft potions. You have heal potions, endurance potions, mana potions, and poison potions. All I did was pick poison potions, to craft and sell to rogue characters that put the potions on the end of their blades in PvP encounters. I know you have been around the block and are an old-time gamer. Even for you, this is a bit over dramatic. In the words of the candy industry, which is the most poisonous crafter in the realms, Give me a break, KitKat! You're as angry as a dark arts candy bar.
PvE people who have played with PvP players in PvP games, should have built a thicker skin that this KitKat. It's just a game at the end of the day.
You stated, "They definitely are PvE players in PvP games otherwise developers would not be desperately trying for their money in every conceivable way and often diluting their game to accommodate them and in the process piss off their PvP base."
I want to debate you about this statement. PvE is for crafters to create businesses for what PvPers need. The PvE player creates armor, weapons, and magic for the PvP person. That was how the game was intended to be played. It wasn't supposed to cater to the PvE crowd. It was supposed to make PvE players feel like you could be a part of the realm war if you wanted. That was it. I just want to ask why the PvE players get more passionate than the PvP players when the devs don't cater to there every desire? Why do you so much want to be with PvP players if you hate them so much?
Silly Goose!
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Successful PvP games cater to both PvP and PvE players. Games that don't, don't last and have small populations. I doubt PvE players enjoy being treated as second class citizens and they have ruined many pure PvP games as a result. That falls squarely on the developers shoulders for chasing their money in the first place and not being satisfied with a smaller population of dedicated PvP players.
Generally because of the sheer volume of games PvE players do not have to accept being thrown crumbs. They expect as paying players to be part of the game and a valuable part of it and not sequestered in sections of it. If there is no way to obtain certain resources without venturing into pure PvP areas they usually find ways to get around those problems. They often force changes which can be a detriment to the game and I personally find that if a mechanic is going to be an issue to me I would rather leave the game then destroy the type of game it is.
Even a game like EvE has many PvE players who play it purely as a PvE game by mining and collecting resources.
I do not think players are that stupid to stick around in a game they are unhappy with and MMORPGs need a population of players who enjoy crafting and other more PvE oriented gameplay like support classes.
Many PvE players also enjoy more support roles in large battles and I have personally also played mostly healers in those types of games. Having a dismissive point of view with regards to PvE players is rather typical and relegating them to roles is typical behaviour. Not surprised at all but the games that are coming out thankfully have generally allowed for areas where PvP is mostly confined to and by and large one can play a PvP games without encountering any PvP. I did that in Archeage and was happy with the system for awhile at least until I got bored with the energy limitations.
Flagging is also another method that games have employed and by and large I have found a comfortable niche in many a PvP game and if I don't I drop the game. It is not like there is a dearth of games for me to enjoy.
Comments
The player is usually smarter.I’m guessing it’s more about the attitude of some players rather than being attacked.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The character is at least as powerful as the sum of it's parts. If any of those parts have synergy the character is more powerful than that sum would suggest.
You don't need everything in the game. You just need what the characters you have require.
Another factor with ESO is that new equipment sets added with expansions are not intended to escalate in power. Rather, they are meant to expand the range of set choices.
I mean, not sure what MMO you play, but, I have yet to play one where the Mob AI is such that the mob tracks you down, wait's till you preoccupied, and then jumps out of some kind of invisibility, doing a massively high DPS rotation, and kills you
YMMV.
But that has been my experience with random open world PvP in every MMO I have ever played, ever in the last 20+ years of playing MMO's
It's one thing when I expect it, like going into a PvP Arena, but dealing with that bullshit when I am trying to do something like a dungeon crawl, again, If that floats your boat, I wish you only the best
You would have to pay me to put up with that shit however, as there would be no way I would play that kind of game and deal with that bullshit, for free, or worse, pay for the privilege to suffer thought it.
Saves developers tons of money and thinking if everything just scales vertically.
A lunch line is just a lunch line, and a ride up and down an elevator is just a elevator ride; that part of the obvious pathing should never have to be explained or broken apart down to it's little details, because if that's all there is to focus on, then that's the problem right there.
A good rpg makes you forget about your level, and a good story makes you forget where you are going.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
Why Scale at all when they could simply build the levelling right in the first place.
(I know that ESO started off with the Themepark issue of wide-scale division of content, and added Scaling to make it seem more like Skyrim, it's a lesson for other games.)
Once upon a time....
It also allowed me to return and play with my friends that were just starting the game, so it felt like I was ahead of the (at least till they capped), while still being able to play with them.
IMHO, leveling in GW2 is more a "Tutorial" then an actual part of the game, once you make 80th, collecting and acquiring level tomes becomes very easy, to the point that I have not leveled ant alt outside the bank in the years.
ungood said:
"Personally, I think PvP in MMO's, unless controlled and separated from PvE, does more harm than good, as it drives away the PvE players."
PvE players are not supposed to play PvP games and if they do it is purely to poison the realm war through business ventures. This means that PvE gamers are PvP players. So, you see, there are no PvE players in PvP. You silly goose.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
You do not get to decide what PvE players do and how to categorize them. Players make their own spaces and decide what they can accept and tolerate as far as PvP goes. It is this high handed attitude that often accompanies a PvP game that I find distasteful. Don't tell me what I can and cannot play and do not put me in a subset. I will decide for myself whether I am a PvE player.
They definitely are PvE players in PvP games otherwise developers would not be desperately trying for their money in every conceivable way and often diluting their game to accommodate them and in the process piss off their PvP base.
I used the word poison because alchemists craft potions. You have heal potions, endurance potions, mana potions, and poison potions. All I did was pick poison potions, to craft and sell to rogue characters that put the potions on the end of their blades in PvP encounters. I know you have been around the block and are an old-time gamer. Even for you, this is a bit over dramatic. In the words of the candy industry, which is the most poisonous crafter in the realms, Give me a break, KitKat! You're as angry as a dark arts candy bar.
PvE people who have played with PvP players in PvP games, should have built a thicker skin that this KitKat. It's just a game at the end of the day.
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You stated, "They definitely are PvE players in PvP games otherwise developers would not be desperately trying for their money in every conceivable way and often diluting their game to accommodate them and in the process piss off their PvP base."
I want to debate you about this statement. PvE is for crafters to create businesses for what PvPers need. The PvE player creates armor, weapons, and magic for the PvP person. That was how the game was intended to be played. It wasn't supposed to cater to the PvE crowd. It was supposed to make PvE players feel like you could be a part of the realm war if you wanted. That was it. I just want to ask why the PvE players get more passionate than the PvP players when the devs don't cater to there every desire? Why do you so much want to be with PvP players if you hate them so much?
Silly Goose!
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Generally because of the sheer volume of games PvE players do not have to accept being thrown crumbs. They expect as paying players to be part of the game and a valuable part of it and not sequestered in sections of it. If there is no way to obtain certain resources without venturing into pure PvP areas they usually find ways to get around those problems. They often force changes which can be a detriment to the game and I personally find that if a mechanic is going to be an issue to me I would rather leave the game then destroy the type of game it is.
Even a game like EvE has many PvE players who play it purely as a PvE game by mining and collecting resources.
I do not think players are that stupid to stick around in a game they are unhappy with and MMORPGs need a population of players who enjoy crafting and other more PvE oriented gameplay like support classes.
Many PvE players also enjoy more support roles in large battles and I have personally also played mostly healers in those types of games. Having a dismissive point of view with regards to PvE players is rather typical and relegating them to roles is typical behaviour. Not surprised at all but the games that are coming out thankfully have generally allowed for areas where PvP is mostly confined to and by and large one can play a PvP games without encountering any PvP. I did that in Archeage and was happy with the system for awhile at least until I got bored with the energy limitations.
Flagging is also another method that games have employed and by and large I have found a comfortable niche in many a PvP game and if I don't I drop the game. It is not like there is a dearth of games for me to enjoy.