My issue is I have never liked anything he has ever done so I don't think I will like anything he works on in the now or the future. PVE is what I love and he does not make good PVE games. Ultima games were better realised as single player games and Ultima Online was a complete mess of a game and a slog to play through. I actually hated SWG, just a terrible game that not alot of people played and it was bogged down by overly obtuse UI and systems and a lack of any kind of balance. Post NGE was a better PVE experience. The guy does not make good PVE and that is what most people like. Which is why EQ and WOW dominated over the projects he was involved in. This is all my opinion so dont smash on me for expressing it like many do here for any opinion other than their own.
I know that he was the lead designer of Ultima Online and creative director of Star Wars Galaxy. Exactly which parts of these two games was he directly responsible for?
I would appreciate an answer to this before I decide what I think about him designing a new game and how excited I should be. I am aware of him but not of his exact contributions. I played SWG and about 20 minutes of Ultima. I didn't like Ultima because of the nasty PvP players so if he is doing more of that I will pass.
As usual, I'll wait for the game to release, read some reviews, and if it looks good will perhaps start playing it a year after it releases, to let it fully bake.
I liked how Ryzom (a sandbox MMO) handled PvP. You could flag for PvP, or participate in the outpost wars, or venture into a PvP area that has the best resources to dig up in the game. If you wanted to just do PvE, then that was easy too.
If he's trying to implement some kind of open world PvP with a "justice system" to inhibit PK'ers, then I doubt that will succeed.
I need some details to sink my teeth into. You know im a big fan of Raphs, but without some meat to digest i don't have much to say. Especially as i have no clue who the guy is who got excited! His joy means nothing to me!
Yes, I know you follow Raph for his expertise and experience. I'm a bit surprised that you have taken this tact here. You sound just as negative as the others, and I don't understand any of it. Ya know why? Because you guys have repeatedly (with some few exceptions) supported anything else new, evidenced as "sight unseen", with 'New World', and others over the years.
I'm not being negative!
I am excited by this new game!
I just know next to nothing about it!
The only things I really know about Raph's new game are:
1) Raph is the guy in charge. I view this as a very good thing.
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
3) His MMORPG is going to be a sandbox. I view this as a good thing.
That's really it so far. We've talked about Raph a lot, so I've had my say there. We've had tons of sandbox discussions, so I've had my say there too. And the metaverse? Well, Raph is the only / first guy to have made one, and it wasn't good (for gamers).
I love Raph's view of virtual worlds and virtual societies, I think he's got great ideas for that side of things. I have no doubt his world building will be good too. I think he's learned his lessons about PvP, and learned them 20+ years ago, so I have no fears on that front either.
My big fear (much like @Brainy) is about the combat mechanics. It's an aspect of RPGs that he rarely talks about and doesn't seem to have much interest in, nor does he have a good track record when it comes to combat mechanics. The worst outcome for me will be if he chooses action combat for his new game. If he does that, then it's highly unlikely I will play.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Is it an actual game game or just the bus and ticket to get to other games in the world like Roblox/Core?Kind of seems to be what he described a while back and what he has been hung up on for years.
A metaverse world filled with mid game worlds you spend 20min in before moving onto the next. I know that's a big seller with today's ADHD kids where they can't do anything more than 7min before getting bored and finding something new, but the question you all need to be asking is who is the target demographic/age range for this platform/game?.....and is it really a game?
My issue is I have never liked anything he has ever done so I don't think I will like anything he works on in the now or the future. PVE is what I love and he does not make good PVE games. Ultima games were better realised as single player games and Ultima Online was a complete mess of a game and a slog to play through. I actually hated SWG, just a terrible game that not alot of people played and it was bogged down by overly obtuse UI and systems and a lack of any kind of balance. Post NGE was a better PVE experience. The guy does not make good PVE and that is what most people like. Which is why EQ and WOW dominated over the projects he was involved in. This is all my opinion so dont smash on me for expressing it like many do here for any opinion other than their own.
I think the word PVE is pretty broad. I do think he can make some good PVE systems.
A+ Crafting - Some of the best crafting systems I have seen.
A+ Harvesting - Mining, Trees, Fur, Fishing, etc.. Integrating that into various professions
A+ Economies - Makes functional economies that work.
A Skills, spells and player development - Love all the synergies, unique skills and spells.
A Taming systems - Love taming, probably needs work to bring up to speed in 2024. I have confidence in this.
A Housing and Storage - Always been a fan of his systems in this area.
A Treasure Hunting, Fishing and other unique PVE systems, YES a big fan.
A- Itemization - Lots of cool attributes on weapons, could be a little better but still solid
A- Rare items, collectables and unique items integrated in dungeons and around the world.
B- Lots of different mobs, with unique attributes - Not bad but needs work.
B- Exploration systems
HERE IS WHERE HE HAS ISSUES, but these are real important to me.
D+ Mob mechanics, special abilities, timing, spells.
D Combat flare - Just misses the coolness factor, super basic graphics and animations.
D- Player combat mechanics, dodge rolls, blocks, combat abilities are all lackluster.
F Mob AI - Everything I have seen needs work, could be just old games, but still pretty trash.
F Boss Abilities, Raid mechanics, Dungeon boss mechanics.
F Boss/Dungeon story and reason for players to care.
F- PVE Players allowed to play in peace without being screwed by other players.
F- PVE Players allowed to succeed in the game without being forced to play in a PVP world.
3) "2" above pretty much answers that, except that I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the political system. I think that's going to be about alliances, warfare, and certain territorial controls that won't mean anything to PvE players.
This is where you are wrong. Just like in New World where PVP players control towns, they control which crafting stations are upgraded, they control tax rates. Why cant PVE players have systems that dont depend on PVP players?
That is like someone telling you at your work, hey just sit in your cube, dont worry if everyone around you is promoted, you just sit there and be happy and content in your little world.
PVE players can be extremely competitive, they want to control their world through PVE systems, they want see themselves on leader boards, they want to be recogonized as the best on the server in their area of expertise.
Games that focus on PVP, that reward PVP only and make PVP the main focus in chat and leader boards. That is bad for PVE players.
Most of all they dont want to deal with PVP players toxic attitudes.
Just like Raph, you dont seem to get it. Which is why I dont have any confidence in his next game.
My issue is I have never liked anything he has ever done so I don't think I will like anything he works on in the now or the future. PVE is what I love and he does not make good PVE games. Ultima games were better realised as single player games and Ultima Online was a complete mess of a game and a slog to play through. I actually hated SWG, just a terrible game that not alot of people played and it was bogged down by overly obtuse UI and systems and a lack of any kind of balance. Post NGE was a better PVE experience. The guy does not make good PVE and that is what most people like. Which is why EQ and WOW dominated over the projects he was involved in. This is all my opinion so dont smash on me for expressing it like many do here for any opinion other than their own.
I think the word PVE is pretty broad. I do think he can make some good PVE systems.
A+ Crafting - Some of the best crafting systems I have seen.
A+ Harvesting - Mining, Trees, Fur, Fishing, etc.. Integrating that into various professions
A+ Economies - Makes functional economies that work.
A Skills, spells and player development - Love all the synergies, unique skills and spells.
A Taming systems - Love taming, probably needs work to bring up to speed in 2024. I have confidence in this.
A Housing and Storage - Always been a fan of his systems in this area.
A Treasure Hunting, Fishing and other unique PVE systems, YES a big fan.
A- Itemization - Lots of cool attributes on weapons, could be a little better but still solid
A- Rare items, collectables and unique items integrated in dungeons and around the world.
B- Lots of different mobs, with unique attributes - Not bad but needs work.
B- Exploration systems
HERE IS WHERE HE HAS ISSUES, but these are real important to me.
D+ Mob mechanics, special abilities, timing, spells.
D Combat flare - Just misses the coolness factor, super basic graphics and animations.
D- Player combat mechanics, dodge rolls, blocks, combat abilities are all lackluster.
F Mob AI - Everything I have seen needs work, could be just old games, but still pretty trash.
F Boss Abilities, Raid mechanics, Dungeon boss mechanics.
F Boss/Dungeon story and reason for players to care.
F- PVE Players allowed to play in peace without being screwed by other players.
F- PVE Players allowed to succeed in the game without being forced to play in a PVP world.
He is not solely responsible for all those things in those previous games (according to him)
An mmorpg like any game is a heavily collaborative project and the additional minds involved are just as important, and my opinion, more so than him. Personally I have zero faith in any previous mmorpg developer. The genre is rubbish and has been for a long long time now. Technology needs to advance far beyond what we have now or we are going to get the same things over and over again.
I need some details to sink my teeth into. You know im a big fan of Raphs, but without some meat to digest i don't have much to say. Especially as i have no clue who the guy is who got excited! His joy means nothing to me!
Yes, I know you follow Raph for his expertise and experience. I'm a bit surprised that you have taken this tact here. You sound just as negative as the others, and I don't understand any of it. Ya know why? Because you guys have repeatedly (with some few exceptions) supported anything else new, evidenced as "sight unseen", with 'New World', and others over the years.
I'm not being negative!
I am excited by this new game!
I just know next to nothing about it!
The only things I really know about Raph's new game are:
1) Raph is the guy in charge. I view this as a very good thing.
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
3) His MMORPG is going to be a sandbox. I view this as a good thing.
That's really it so far. We've talked about Raph a lot, so I've had my say there. We've had tons of sandbox discussions, so I've had my say there too. And the metaverse? Well, Raph is the only / first guy to have made one, and it wasn't good (for gamers).
I love Raph's view of virtual worlds and virtual societies, I think he's got great ideas for that side of things. I have no doubt his world building will be good too. I think he's learned his lessons about PvP, and learned them 20+ years ago, so I have no fears on that front either.
My big fear (much like @Brainy) is about the combat mechanics. It's an aspect of RPGs that he rarely talks about and doesn't seem to have much interest in, nor does he have a good track record when it comes to combat mechanics. The worst outcome for me will be if he chooses action combat for his new game. If he does that, then it's highly unlikely I will play.
What exactly do you mean by "action combat"? I haven't played an MMORPG in years, and I understand it as aiming attacks, hitting a button to dodge, and that sort of stuff. Correct?
I have to point out that Raph's 2 MMORPGs were before most of the modern day mechanics made their way into MMORPGs. I'm sure he's been watching.
I'm not sure that @Brainy is talking about combat mechanics so much as choreography (best used in Instances). Maybe he's talking about them both.
I've been reading the comments, and there are a lot of good ones (not that I agree with most, but worth discussion). I'll be back to offer up some more comments, I hope.
I'm solidly in the group that no longer gets hyped by words or promises. The last time I was optimistic about a games "living world" was GW2. But once I played it became obvious that the zones just ran a cycle of preprogrammed event quests.
A living world won't succeed in a themepark game because people complain if they can't do their hardcoded quests do to the state of the world. But a living world could work amazingly in a sandbox game that doesn't hardcode the world to specific states. Oh and a player base willing to lose what they own in the world.
Eventually a developer will deliver on the promise.
So many of these so called Legendary game designers that disappeared, tried a comeback and burned themselves and failed epically!
Richard Garriott, Brad McQuaid, Mark Jacobs... do I need to go on?
When is the last time Raph has released a successful game, since he disappeared after SWG?
We need new blood, not these old timers coming back with bold claims, visions and promises and just end up scamming people via Kickstarter, pre-order/alpha/beta paid packages, etc and never delivering on any of their promises.
I will wait and see if Raph is able to deliver an actual game and how the reviews turn out. Then we talk again.
So many of these so called Legendary game designers that disappeared, tried a comeback and burned themselves and failed epically!
Richard Garriott, Brad McQuaid, Mark Jacobs... do I need to go on?
When is the last time Raph has released a successful game, since he disappeared after SWG?
We need new blood, not these old timers coming back with bold claims, visions and promises and just end up scamming people via Kickstarter, pre-order/alpha/beta paid packages, etc and never delivering on any of their promises.
I will wait and see if Raph is able to deliver an actual game and how the reviews turn out. Then we talk again.
Agreed. My question us, how old is he? Will he make it through the next 10 years of development? I loved SWG very much but what has he done since then? Is he in touch with the current market? Is this another fully croud funded game or is there some real backers? Pantheon failed mostly due to bad management. Brad should have never run a company. Is Raph running the business as well? If he is, has he done this successfully before?
So many of these so called Legendary game designers that disappeared, tried a comeback and burned themselves and failed epically!
Richard Garriott, Brad McQuaid, Mark Jacobs... do I need to go on?
When is the last time Raph has released a successful game, since he disappeared after SWG?
We need new blood, not these old timers coming back with bold claims, visions and promises and just end up scamming people via Kickstarter, pre-order/alpha/beta paid packages, etc and never delivering on any of their promises.
I will wait and see if Raph is able to deliver an actual game and how the reviews turn out. Then we talk again.
Years ago we were hyped for his first independent game; this was shortly before SWG shut down. It ended up being Metaplace, which wasn't what anyone expected. While he did achieve some successes with the project in that he stated he apparently sold the engine off to the company that built Club Penguin; he left many of us disappointed.
It's likely this will be a platform for games like Roblox. I see no writers on his team; though maybe they aren't listed, idk. In the past he was really caught up in the idea that developer created story is limiting and we should create our own, but very few players are good at creating stories or content on their own. He once stated that mission terminals were to serve as the primary content in SWG; but they added themeparks as a way to connect the players to the Star Wars experiences; most likely that was Lucas Arts saying, mission terminals, is that it?.
There are a few of us that like stories combined with sandbox, but I'm
not sure he sees that. Example: When they added story arcs to SWG people
were happy because the devs created stories were good. When they added
the story teller feature (player created stories), fewer players cared. Some stories were
good, most sucked and were ridiculous.
I have this weird feeling he is going to now heavily rely on AI generated story tools for people to build their worlds in Playable worlds. Thing is that works for games like Rimworld where you can restart if you hate the direction of the story, an MMO its a different beast. We are gonna end up with a lot of broken disjointed stories people make that are half baked I'm afraid, but he won't take any of the blame since he just built the tool box.
I kind feel like he is maybe just building another tech demo to sell off again like he did with Metaplace? We shall see. I will remain cautiously optimistic.
What exactly do you mean by "action combat"? I haven't played an MMORPG in years, and I understand it as aiming attacks, hitting a button to dodge, and that sort of stuff. Correct?
I have to point out that Raph's 2 MMORPGs were before most of the modern day mechanics made their way into MMORPGs. I'm sure he's been watching.
I'm not sure that @Brainy is talking about combat mechanics so much as choreography (best used in Instances). Maybe he's talking about them both.
I've been reading the comments, and there are a lot of good ones (not that I agree with most, but worth discussion). I'll be back to offer up some more comments, I hope.
By action combat, I mean combat where the outcome is determined primarily by the physical actions taken by the player. That might be aiming, movement, reaction times or speed of input (combos).
My prefered option is tactical combat, i.e. combat where the outcome is determined primarily by the decisions the player makes during combat.
I don't have a good name for the third option, but this is where the outcome is determined by your preparation / meta-game, rather than anything that happens during the combat itself. If you've got the right gear/spec, you'll win, if you don't, you'll lose. Auto-play tends to be the common mechanic here,
How your enemies act - the choreography as u put it - is part of combat mechanics. If I've got a skill that stops bleeding, but no enemy makes me bleed, then the skill is useless bloat. If the combat mechanics are really deep, but the content is too easy, then that depth is never needed.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
What exactly do you mean by "action combat"? I haven't played an MMORPG in years, and I understand it as aiming attacks, hitting a button to dodge, and that sort of stuff. Correct?
I have to point out that Raph's 2 MMORPGs were before most of the modern day mechanics made their way into MMORPGs. I'm sure he's been watching.
I'm not sure that @Brainy is talking about combat mechanics so much as choreography (best used in Instances). Maybe he's talking about them both.
I've been reading the comments, and there are a lot of good ones (not that I agree with most, but worth discussion). I'll be back to offer up some more comments, I hope.
By action combat, I mean combat where the outcome is determined primarily by the physical actions taken by the player. That might be aiming, movement, reaction times or speed of input (combos).
My prefered option is tactical combat, i.e. combat where the outcome is determined primarily by the decisions the player makes during combat.
I don't have a good name for the third option, but this is where the outcome is determined by your preparation / meta-game, rather than anything that happens during the combat itself. If you've got the right gear/spec, you'll win, if you don't, you'll lose. Auto-play tends to be the common mechanic here,
How your enemies act - the choreography as u put it - is part of combat mechanics. If I've got a skill that stops bleeding, but no enemy makes me bleed, then the skill is useless bloat. If the combat mechanics are really deep, but the content is too easy, then that depth is never needed.
By choreography, I mean set ups that actually define the player's actions for success. Such as having to pull a small group out of an area so you don't attract the whole mess onto you at once. That's the simplest version, anyways. They are fixed content in Instances (usually, because other players will mess up the fixed plan) that are built to make that particular instance more exciting. "Leroy Jenkins" stuff.
So many of these so called Legendary game designers that disappeared, tried a comeback and burned themselves and failed epically!
Richard Garriott, Brad McQuaid, Mark Jacobs... do I need to go on?
When is the last time Raph has released a successful game, since he disappeared after SWG?
We need new blood, not these old timers coming back with bold claims, visions and promises and just end up scamming people via Kickstarter, pre-order/alpha/beta paid packages, etc and never delivering on any of their promises.
I will wait and see if Raph is able to deliver an actual game and how the reviews turn out. Then we talk again.
Years ago we were hyped for his first independent game; this was shortly before SWG shut down. It ended up being Metaplace, which wasn't what anyone expected. While he did achieve some successes with the project in that he stated he apparently sold the engine off to the company that built Club Penguin; he left many of us disappointed.
It's likely this will be a platform for games like Roblox. I see no writers on his team; though maybe they aren't listed, idk. In the past he was really caught up in the idea that developer created story is limiting and we should create our own, but very few players are good at creating stories or content on their own. He once stated that mission terminals were to serve as the primary content in SWG; but they added themeparks as a way to connect the players to the Star Wars experiences; most likely that was Lucas Arts saying, mission terminals, is that it?.
There are a few of us that like stories combined with sandbox, but I'm
not sure he sees that. Example: When they added story arcs to SWG people
were happy because the devs created stories were good. When they added
the story teller feature (player created stories), fewer players cared. Some stories were
good, most sucked and were ridiculous.
I have this weird feeling he is going to now heavily rely on AI generated story tools for people to build their worlds in Playable worlds. Thing is that works for games like Rimworld where you can restart if you hate the direction of the story, an MMO its a different beast. We are gonna end up with a lot of broken disjointed stories people make that are half baked I'm afraid, but he won't take any of the blame since he just built the tool box.
I kind feel like he is maybe just building another tech demo to sell off again like he did with Metaplace? We shall see. I will remain cautiously optimistic.
I tested Metaplace, and you're right about its purpose. But he was also creating his own game. That didn't happen because he got that offer to sell, as far as I could see. In my opinion, even Metaplace wasn't done to what he had figured on, but enough for the buyer's purposes. "A bird in the hand", IMO.
I totally agree on player created content within a game. I also agree that part of what he's building will be a platform for others to create their own games. But that doesn't mean the two will be mixed in his game. I don't like the idea of gamers moving their characters from game to game at will, because I think that's going to break down the "social glue", in the wider context, that I want to see in an MMORPG. As you said, we'll have to wait and see.
Edit: Raph has talked about the effects of Monty Hall campaigns. I don't think he's going to allow that to mess up his own game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As long as it isnt a questfest like so many MMOs turn out to be....Give us a world that has lots of named mobs and is fun to explore....No more building the entire world around quests.
Comments
PVE is what I love and he does not make good PVE games.
Ultima games were better realised as single player games and Ultima Online was a complete mess of a game and a slog to play through.
I actually hated SWG, just a terrible game that not alot of people played and it was bogged down by overly obtuse UI and systems and a lack of any kind of balance. Post NGE was a better PVE experience.
The guy does not make good PVE and that is what most people like.
Which is why EQ and WOW dominated over the projects he was involved in.
This is all my opinion so dont smash on me for expressing it like many do here for any opinion other than their own.
I would appreciate an answer to this before I decide what I think about him designing a new game and how excited I should be. I am aware of him but not of his exact contributions. I played SWG and about 20 minutes of Ultima. I didn't like Ultima because of the nasty PvP players so if he is doing more of that I will pass.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
HERE IS WHERE HE HAS ISSUES, but these are real important to me.
That is like someone telling you at your work, hey just sit in your cube, dont worry if everyone around you is promoted, you just sit there and be happy and content in your little world.
PVE players can be extremely competitive, they want to control their world through PVE systems, they want see themselves on leader boards, they want to be recogonized as the best on the server in their area of expertise.
Games that focus on PVP, that reward PVP only and make PVP the main focus in chat and leader boards. That is bad for PVE players.
Most of all they dont want to deal with PVP players toxic attitudes.
Just like Raph, you dont seem to get it. Which is why I dont have any confidence in his next game.
An mmorpg like any game is a heavily collaborative project and the additional minds involved are just as important, and my opinion, more so than him.
Personally I have zero faith in any previous mmorpg developer.
The genre is rubbish and has been for a long long time now.
Technology needs to advance far beyond what we have now or we are going to get the same things over and over again.
I haven't played an MMORPG in years, and I understand it as aiming attacks, hitting a button to dodge, and that sort of stuff. Correct?
I have to point out that Raph's 2 MMORPGs were before most of the modern day mechanics made their way into MMORPGs. I'm sure he's been watching.
I'm not sure that @Brainy is talking about combat mechanics so much as choreography (best used in Instances). Maybe he's talking about them both.
I've been reading the comments, and there are a lot of good ones (not that I agree with most, but worth discussion).
I'll be back to offer up some more comments, I hope.
Once upon a time....
A living world won't succeed in a themepark game because people complain if they can't do their hardcoded quests do to the state of the world. But a living world could work amazingly in a sandbox game that doesn't hardcode the world to specific states. Oh and a player base willing to lose what they own in the world.
Eventually a developer will deliver on the promise.
Richard Garriott, Brad McQuaid, Mark Jacobs... do I need to go on?
When is the last time Raph has released a successful game, since he disappeared after SWG?
We need new blood, not these old timers coming back with bold claims, visions and promises and just end up scamming people via Kickstarter, pre-order/alpha/beta paid packages, etc and never delivering on any of their promises.
I will wait and see if Raph is able to deliver an actual game and how the reviews turn out. Then we talk again.
You'll been officially labeled a Raph Koster Fanboi(tm).
If you'd like to appeal this decision, I can schedule 5 minutes for you at our next hearing.
but you'll need Fireballs to kill me!
Once upon a time....
That's the simplest version, anyways.
They are fixed content in Instances (usually, because other players will mess up the fixed plan) that are built to make that particular instance more exciting. "Leroy Jenkins" stuff.
Once upon a time....
In my opinion, even Metaplace wasn't done to what he had figured on, but enough for the buyer's purposes.
"A bird in the hand", IMO.
I totally agree on player created content within a game.
I also agree that part of what he's building will be a platform for others to create their own games. But that doesn't mean the two will be mixed in his game.
I don't like the idea of gamers moving their characters from game to game at will, because I think that's going to break down the "social glue", in the wider context, that I want to see in an MMORPG.
As you said, we'll have to wait and see.
Edit:
Raph has talked about the effects of Monty Hall campaigns. I don't think he's going to allow that to mess up his own game.
Once upon a time....
Sort of like eating fine caviar, it's meant for gamers with a more discerning palette.
Or who are psychopaths....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If they make a good game that has a fair payment model. People will play it.
Also, EVE is a good game and people do play it