As long as it isnt a questfest like so many MMOs turn out to be....Give us a world that has lots of named mobs and is fun to explore....No more building the entire world around quests.
I don't like kill 10 rats quest. I like real quests. Everquest class weapons was one of the best quests I have ever done. Getting my Shaman his class spear is one of my favourite gaming highlights. Took me almost a year to get done and help from many a friend. No way to do it all solo. Was a social event. I would love MMOs return to quests like that.
Well, if I have a complaint about MMORPGs, then its that the quests tend to be boring.
Having good questlines is awesome though.
Other than that yes MMORPGs is where you should have all kinds of ways to play, for variance. Like you should have exploration in your MMORPGs, large amounts of land without quests but where you can hunt for goodies, like crafting materials.
I have been playing around with Imperium for Everquest but it was dreadfully boring. It is one thing to solo and quite another to be overpowered. Dead boring it was. I prefer Nyctermoon where you die a lot as the solo is still as hard as vanilla WoW is but you get very well scripted bots for grouping and they still act like real players by doing shit like drawing aggro by being careless. I think that is the best medium when faced with dwindling population in servers.
Result is I dropped Everquest and stayed on Nyctermoon WoW.
No idea about Raph Koster have to wait and see I guess but I need really good questing, crafting, lore and story. If these don't exist I don't play your game. I may not be a sandbox gal I think but I enjoyed some of the semi ones.
QUests themselves dont bother me so much...What I reallly dont like is constantly running around aimlessly doing them...I guess if there was some way that we didnt constantly have to run back and forth, then that would make it better, but if all I am going to do is run back and forth from point A to point B doing some menial task, then that isnt fun either.
As long as it isnt a questfest like so many MMOs turn out to be....Give us a world that has lots of named mobs and is fun to explore....No more building the entire world around quests.
I'm basically done with themeparks, which, to me, is the kind of quest driven design you're describing.
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
Depends on how this "metaverse" works. Second Life didn't exactly achieve mass appeal. But it could be interesting nonetheless. Depends if it offers a self hosting option or if you must use their infrastructure. If the latter then it sounds like another Shards Online which pivoted away from the "metaverse" idea into Yet Another Struggling Failed/Kickstarter MMO.
I've followed Raph's articles on the old Terranova board. I've
even had a conversation or two with him in the past and read one of his
books Theory of Fun for Game Design which I mostly disagreed with.
Back
then he skewed far towards the simulation side of Virtual Worlds.
Personally I'm not a fan of mechanically enforced immersion (eat or die,
forced PvP, "uphill, barefoot, through the snow, both ways!" etc.) I get that there are some folks that appreciate the survival sandbox genre but to me it just looks like yet another small niche.
If they make a good game that has a fair payment model. People will play it.
I dont disagree with you, I have seen some really bad payment models like Diablo Immortal. I hate Pay2Win models.
But in MMO's I have yet to see a game that was AMAZING that was too expensive. MMO's dont scale in price like houses, cars or restaurants from what I seen.
I have been in situtations where a game was borderline, was full price and I was unsure if I would even like it so I opted not to buy it.
If there was truely a game that I knew would be fantastic, I am not sure what price I would be willing to pay. I know I could pay $20 per month plus $60+ for box, so thats about $300 year 1. Are there any real good mmo's more expensive than that?
Would be interesting if they had really good MMO's tiered in price like restaurants. I wonder if that model could survive and drive better games due to the money incentives.
By action combat, I mean combat where the outcome is determined primarily by the physical actions taken by the player. That might be aiming, movement, reaction times or speed of input (combos).
Agree this is mostly what I was talking about. To expand, including what you mentioned, also things like chained attacks, so after a parry, block or dodge the player can react with a special attack. Also using device to get out of stun/immobilization (UO had this, also WoW engineering)
Doesnt have to be super twitchy either, then can allow a grace period in the timing for us old folks. DAOC was like that and it was still fun.
I don't have a good name for the third option, but this is where the outcome is determined by your preparation / meta-game, rather than anything that happens during the combat itself. If you've got the right gear/spec, you'll win, if you don't, you'll lose. Auto-play tends to be the common mechanic here,
Yes I hate I win gear. I hate when you can win just by equiping the right ... ahead of time. Reacting and changing to the correct spell or weapon in battle is more tactical, so I am ok with that. But equiping ahead of time by reading a guide, or just luck, is not good to me.
By choreography, I mean set ups that actually define the player's actions for success. Such as having to pull a small group out of an area so you don't attract the whole mess onto you at once.
This isnt really what I was talking about, but I do like this stuff too. Doing correct pulls etc... however I would like it to be more dynamic, and not static where you can read a guide and already know exactly where to stand (IE Wow). Something where you use common sense and tactics to use your surroundings for position, like pillars to block spells etc..
I am also a big fan of monsters having "RANDOM" traits that change their powers so everytime you fight them its a little different. Chromaggus was like this, would have 2 of 5 damage types (fire, cold, acid, dots, stuns), and rotate thru 1 of 5 afflictions (disease, poison, magic, curse, stun), this could create a different versions of the boss depending on which ones you got.
3) "2" above pretty much answers that, except that I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the political system. I think that's going to be about alliances, warfare, and certain territorial controls that won't mean anything to PvE players.
This is where you are wrong. Just like in New World where PVP players control towns, they control which crafting stations are upgraded, they control tax rates. Why cant PVE players have systems that dont depend on PVP players?
That is like someone telling you at your work, hey just sit in your cube, dont worry if everyone around you is promoted, you just sit there and be happy and content in your little world.
PVE players can be extremely competitive, they want to control their world through PVE systems, they want see themselves on leader boards, they want to be recogonized as the best on the server in their area of expertise.
Games that focus on PVP, that reward PVP only and make PVP the main focus in chat and leader boards. That is bad for PVE players.
Most of all they dont want to deal with PVP players toxic attitudes.
Just like Raph, you dont seem to get it. Which is why I dont have any confidence in his next game.
Ahh, ok, I didn't understand you initially. If the political system includes Administration like that, then that's a far more advanced system. Why assume that PvPers would have total control over the entire system? They might, or they might not, depending on how the system is built.
This goes back to things we've talked about years ago. Why not have political offices that are elected by the all of the citizens, including PvEers? Why not have a system where any player can pack up their house and leave for a city they'd be happy in, if they aren't happy there?
For that matter, why not allow city builders to choose a form that fits their goals; kingship (for strictly PvPers, or visa versa), or a democratic sort of system that allows both via compromise and the power of the ballot?
By choreography, I mean set ups that actually define the player's actions for success. Such as having to pull a small group out of an area so you don't attract the whole mess onto you at once.
This isnt really what I was talking about, but I do like this stuff too. Doing correct pulls etc... however I would like it to be more dynamic, and not static where you can read a guide and already know exactly where to stand (IE Wow). Something where you use common sense and tactics to use your surroundings for position, like pillars to block spells etc..
I am also a big fan of monsters having "RANDOM" traits that change their powers so everytime you fight them its a little different. Chromaggus was like this, would have 2 of 5 damage types (fire, cold, acid, dots, stuns), and rotate thru 1 of 5 afflictions (disease, poison, magic, curse, stun), this could create a different versions of the boss depending on which ones you got.
Good stuff. I like randomness so as to change things up.
Another idea is to have MOB alliances, and change up which alliance(s) is supporting the main MOB type. So, as an example, a dungeon run (currently) by a Deamon Lord, has the typical Undead types, and then has one of a number of alliances there too, perhaps the "Knights of the Damned", or maybe "The Rogues of Hell." Or maybe just a bunch of Orcs.
I said "currently" because- why not change the dungeons that they are in once in a while?
I wonder if AI could be used to set up different positionings, randomly, to fit their dungeon location?
I don't know if you remember my "Dungeon AI" and "Wandering MOBs" posts, those were based on this sort of idea.
(Was Raph talking about MOB politics? lol) (I laugh, but that would be pretty darn cool.)
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
Depends on how this "metaverse" works. Second Life didn't exactly achieve mass appeal. But it could be interesting nonetheless. Depends if it offers a self hosting option or if you must use their infrastructure. If the latter then it sounds like another Shards Online which pivoted away from the "metaverse" idea into Yet Another Struggling Failed/Kickstarter MMO.
I've followed Raph's articles on the old Terranova board. I've
even had a conversation or two with him in the past and read one of his
books Theory of Fun for Game Design which I mostly disagreed with.
Back
then he skewed far towards the simulation side of Virtual Worlds.
Personally I'm not a fan of mechanically enforced immersion (eat or die,
forced PvP, "uphill, barefoot, through the snow, both ways!" etc.) I get that there are some folks that appreciate the survival sandbox genre but to me it just looks like yet another small niche.
My hope is that Raph just used the metaverse terminology in order to secure funding, given that it was the buzzword of teh day at the time he was raising capitol.
The way he talks about it, its more like a content delivery system, aiming for an interesting hybrid between installed locally and streamed content.
But, second life wasn't a metaverse, neither is roblox (according to raph) so if that is where ur mind went, then your's and raphs ideas of a metaverse are very different.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
Depends on how this "metaverse" works. Second Life didn't exactly achieve mass appeal. But it could be interesting nonetheless. Depends if it offers a self hosting option or if you must use their infrastructure. If the latter then it sounds like another Shards Online which pivoted away from the "metaverse" idea into Yet Another Struggling Failed/Kickstarter MMO.
I've followed Raph's articles on the old Terranova board. I've
even had a conversation or two with him in the past and read one of his
books Theory of Fun for Game Design which I mostly disagreed with.
Back
then he skewed far towards the simulation side of Virtual Worlds.
Personally I'm not a fan of mechanically enforced immersion (eat or die,
forced PvP, "uphill, barefoot, through the snow, both ways!" etc.) I get that there are some folks that appreciate the survival sandbox genre but to me it just looks like yet another small niche.
My hope is that Raph just used the metaverse terminology in order to secure funding, given that it was the buzzword of teh day at the time he was raising capitol.
The way he talks about it, its more like a content delivery system, aiming for an interesting hybrid between installed locally and streamed content.
But, second life wasn't a metaverse, neither is roblox (according to raph) so if that is where ur mind went, then your's and raphs ideas of a metaverse are very different.
As there's little agreement what something simple like what a MMORPG is, imagine the disagreements we'll have over what constitutes a metaverse.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Little bro literally said "List the sandbox features in Eve" and wants to be taken seriously.
So now I'm Raph's brother.
Ok, he said: "I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up. Prove me wrong."
So I asked him to prove his point by listing Sandbox features in Eve. He didn't. Maybe you'd like to list them?
It's not that Eve doesn't have Sandbox features, and honestly the term can be debated, but UO (and I believe SWG, since I only played it a little) blows Eve away on that score.
Show me yours to prove that point, and I'll show you mine.
2) He's building a framework for a metaverse first, then building his MMORPG to be the first game to sit within this metaverse. I view this as a bad thing.
Depends on how this "metaverse" works. Second Life didn't exactly achieve mass appeal. But it could be interesting nonetheless. Depends if it offers a self hosting option or if you must use their infrastructure. If the latter then it sounds like another Shards Online which pivoted away from the "metaverse" idea into Yet Another Struggling Failed/Kickstarter MMO.
I've followed Raph's articles on the old Terranova board. I've
even had a conversation or two with him in the past and read one of his
books Theory of Fun for Game Design which I mostly disagreed with.
Back
then he skewed far towards the simulation side of Virtual Worlds.
Personally I'm not a fan of mechanically enforced immersion (eat or die,
forced PvP, "uphill, barefoot, through the snow, both ways!" etc.) I get that there are some folks that appreciate the survival sandbox genre but to me it just looks like yet another small niche.
My hope is that Raph just used the metaverse terminology in order to secure funding, given that it was the buzzword of teh day at the time he was raising capitol.
The way he talks about it, its more like a content delivery system, aiming for an interesting hybrid between installed locally and streamed content.
But, second life wasn't a metaverse, neither is roblox (according to raph) so if that is where ur mind went, then your's and raphs ideas of a metaverse are very different.
As there's little agreement what something simple like what a MMORPG is, imagine the disagreements we'll have over what constitutes a metaverse.
Disagreement is what makes the forum-go-round, so that's ideal.
There are a few sandbox like mmorpgs. It isnt new nor forgotten.
Ultima, SWG, Runescape, Wurm,EVE, Albion, Boundless, ECO, Fractured, Minecraft if you wanna go that route (with rpg servers like Minescape, Hypixel and Wynncraft (which has over 1300 people playing at any given time)
Little bro literally said "List the sandbox features in Eve" and wants to be taken seriously.
So now I'm Raph's brother.
Ok, he said: "I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up. Prove me wrong."
So I asked him to prove his point by listing Sandbox features in Eve. He didn't. Maybe you'd like to list them?
It's not that Eve doesn't have Sandbox features, and honestly the term can be debated, but UO (and I believe SWG, since I only played it a little) blows Eve away on that score.
Show me yours to prove that point, and I'll show you mine.
That is a silly post. Everyone knows EVE is a sandbox. Even your messiah has spoken about it. What are you on about?
Little bro literally said "List the sandbox features in Eve" and wants to be taken seriously.
So now I'm Raph's brother.
Ok, he said: "I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up. Prove me wrong."
So I asked him to prove his point by listing Sandbox features in Eve. He didn't. Maybe you'd like to list them?
It's not that Eve doesn't have Sandbox features, and honestly the term can be debated, but UO (and I believe SWG, since I only played it a little) blows Eve away on that score.
Show me yours to prove that point, and I'll show you mine.
That is a silly post. Everyone knows EVE is a sandbox. Even your messiah has spoken about it. What are you on about?
I just told you. Eve has Sandbox elements. Eve falls behind because it doesn't have characters and the worlds to run around in for more "Sandbox." But that wasn't the point, the point was the claim that it's "only true sandbox MMORPG ever made". When in fact it's not nearly as Sandboxy as UO, nor as much as Runescape or Wurm. I'm not sure about some of the other games that @Terazon just mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that Albion is quite a bit better too.
Now, it's obvious that Kyleran was just trying to pull my chain, so I challenged him on it. And it appears that you are too, since you ignored the point as I spelled out. @unfilteredJW seems to have gone for the jugular, so to speak.
But worse, then I read this (in the linked article): Raph Koster: “I prefer playing narrative games—despite what I make. But it doesn't matter. I think they're disadvantaged in a market like that,”
LOL, way to throw me under the bus, Raph!
But in reality, you can have both the games he's known to make (Sandbox, as we know) and the "narrative" game play. You can do that narrative stuff in two ways that I can think of right off the bat. Quests like in Themepark games (just don't make the game dependent on only that) or like UO did it with World GM Events, only more than UO did, and with more tools than they had available back then.
Anyways, I just wanted to throw that dig at ya'all for acting like jackasses to me around here.
like UO did it with World GM Events, only more than UO did, and with more tools than they had available back then.
GM events? Yeah I dont think this will work today. Very costly for humans, and from what I seen happen in Indie games, it turns into a bunch of hookups for the GM's friends that show up.
Now if you go with Coded or AI events, where there are certain random triggers that cause some events for communities, I am cool with that.
But I am sick of these indie games hooking up all their buddies, it ruins the entire system of power. There needs to be complete fairness.
like UO did it with World GM Events, only more than UO did, and with more tools than they had available back then.
GM events? Yeah I dont think this will work today. Very costly for humans, and from what I seen happen in Indie games, it turns into a bunch of hookups for the GM's friends that show up.
Now if you go with Coded or AI events, where there are certain random triggers that cause some events for communities, I am cool with that.
But I am sick of these indie games hooking up all their buddies, it ruins the entire system of power. There needs to be complete fairness.
Yeah, that was a problem. But I believe it's possible to set it up better so that doesn't become an issue. NDAs plus verifications and oversight, that kind of stuff.
"Coded or AI events" are part of how I think it would be done. For great GM events, you really need great tools designed just for that. Tools that are recorded and monitored. This sounds like a lot of extra, but remember the idea is to "reset" MMORPGs.
NFT's are great here, you can trace the items and see where they are and each item's "journey."
Just to note that Raph talked (somewhere) about planting trees with sensors in so that a player can view what happens to it. Let's expand that concept. Will NFT's live and die and maybe even propagate in Raph's world? Will there be "artifact NFTs" that do things on their own in said world? Curses and Powers, loosed by unknowing Player actions?
@Amaranthar, I was just pulling your chain a bit, while never playing either I'm pretty sure both UO and SWG were further to the left (more sandboxy) than EVE.
Don't take it personal though, I'm mostly fencing with you as I put little faith in men anymore, especially "legendary" ones.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Result is I dropped Everquest and stayed on Nyctermoon WoW.
No idea about Raph Koster have to wait and see I guess but I need really good questing, crafting, lore and story. If these don't exist I don't play your game. I may not be a sandbox gal I think but I enjoyed some of the semi ones.
I dont disagree with you, I have seen some really bad payment models like Diablo Immortal. I hate Pay2Win models.
But in MMO's I have yet to see a game that was AMAZING that was too expensive. MMO's dont scale in price like houses, cars or restaurants from what I seen.
I have been in situtations where a game was borderline, was full price and I was unsure if I would even like it so I opted not to buy it.
If there was truely a game that I knew would be fantastic, I am not sure what price I would be willing to pay. I know I could pay $20 per month plus $60+ for box, so thats about $300 year 1. Are there any real good mmo's more expensive than that?
Would be interesting if they had really good MMO's tiered in price like restaurants. I wonder if that model could survive and drive better games due to the money incentives.
I am also a big fan of monsters having "RANDOM" traits that change their powers so everytime you fight them its a little different. Chromaggus was like this, would have 2 of 5 damage types (fire, cold, acid, dots, stuns), and rotate thru 1 of 5 afflictions (disease, poison, magic, curse, stun), this could create a different versions of the boss depending on which ones you got.
If the political system includes Administration like that, then that's a far more advanced system.
Why assume that PvPers would have total control over the entire system?
They might, or they might not, depending on how the system is built.
This goes back to things we've talked about years ago.
Why not have political offices that are elected by the all of the citizens, including PvEers?
Why not have a system where any player can pack up their house and leave for a city they'd be happy in, if they aren't happy there?
For that matter, why not allow city builders to choose a form that fits their goals; kingship (for strictly PvPers, or visa versa),
or a democratic sort of system that allows both via compromise and the power of the ballot?
Once upon a time....
Another idea is to have MOB alliances, and change up which alliance(s) is supporting the main MOB type. So, as an example, a dungeon run (currently) by a Deamon Lord, has the typical Undead types, and then has one of a number of alliances there too, perhaps the "Knights of the Damned", or maybe "The Rogues of Hell." Or maybe just a bunch of Orcs.
I said "currently" because- why not change the dungeons that they are in once in a while?
I wonder if AI could be used to set up different positionings, randomly, to fit their dungeon location?
I don't know if you remember my "Dungeon AI" and "Wandering MOBs" posts, those were based on this sort of idea.
(Was Raph talking about MOB politics? lol)
(I laugh, but that would be pretty darn cool.)
Once upon a time....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
Ok, he said:
"I played EVE for 10 years, the only true sandbox MMORPG ever made which well exceeded anything Raph ever dreamed up.
Prove me wrong."
So I asked him to prove his point by listing Sandbox features in Eve.
He didn't.
Maybe you'd like to list them?
It's not that Eve doesn't have Sandbox features, and honestly the term can be debated, but UO (and I believe SWG, since I only played it a little) blows Eve away on that score.
Show me yours to prove that point, and I'll show you mine.
Once upon a time....
Disagreement is what makes the forum-go-round, so that's ideal.
Ultima, SWG, Runescape, Wurm,EVE, Albion, Boundless, ECO, Fractured, Minecraft if you wanna go that route (with rpg servers like Minescape, Hypixel and Wynncraft (which has over 1300 people playing at any given time)
Everyone knows EVE is a sandbox. Even your messiah has spoken about it. What are you on about?
Eve falls behind because it doesn't have characters and the worlds to run around in for more "Sandbox." But that wasn't the point, the point was the claim that it's
"only true sandbox MMORPG ever made". When in fact it's not nearly as Sandboxy as UO, nor as much as Runescape or Wurm. I'm not sure about some of the other games that @Terazon just mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that Albion is quite a bit better too.
Now, it's obvious that Kyleran was just trying to pull my chain, so I challenged him on it.
And it appears that you are too, since you ignored the point as I spelled out.
@unfilteredJW seems to have gone for the jugular, so to speak.
This is the treatment a poster gets for supporting a guy who's put out two successful games? Who has the know-how to make the "reset" that this industry sorely needs?
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/502944/raph-kosters-insights-the-future-of-gaming-soaring-budgets-and-the-role-of-ai-mmorpg-com#latest
But worse, then I read this (in the linked article):
Raph Koster:
“I prefer playing narrative games—despite what I make. But it doesn't matter. I think they're disadvantaged in a market like that,”
LOL, way to throw me under the bus, Raph!
But in reality, you can have both the games he's known to make (Sandbox, as we know) and the "narrative" game play. You can do that narrative stuff in two ways that I can think of right off the bat. Quests like in Themepark games (just don't make the game dependent on only that) or like UO did it with World GM Events, only more than UO did, and with more tools than they had available back then.
Anyways, I just wanted to throw that dig at ya'all for acting like jackasses to me around here.
Still friends?
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
GM events? Yeah I dont think this will work today. Very costly for humans, and from what I seen happen in Indie games, it turns into a bunch of hookups for the GM's friends that show up.
Now if you go with Coded or AI events, where there are certain random triggers that cause some events for communities, I am cool with that.
But I am sick of these indie games hooking up all their buddies, it ruins the entire system of power. There needs to be complete fairness.
"Coded or AI events" are part of how I think it would be done. For great GM events, you really need great tools designed just for that.
Tools that are recorded and monitored. This sounds like a lot of extra, but remember the idea is to "reset" MMORPGs.
NFT's are great here, you can trace the items and see where they are and each item's "journey."
Just to note that Raph talked (somewhere) about planting trees with sensors in so that a player can view what happens to it. Let's expand that concept. Will NFT's live and die and maybe even propagate in Raph's world? Will there be "artifact NFTs" that do things on their own in said world?
Curses and Powers, loosed by unknowing Player actions?
Once upon a time....
Don't take it personal though, I'm mostly fencing with you as I put little faith in men anymore, especially "legendary" ones.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon