if AI in MMOs get too advanced, wouldnt all PvE just become PvP?

MMOExposed · December 2023

if AI in MMOs get too advanced, wouldnt all PvE just become PvP?

I made a similar post on the old board, but the community back then didnt respond well to the question. But now with AI/ChatGPt and all the hype around it, I believe people now days can vision what I am talking about more now than back then in the old post.

What sparked the post in the first place, was seeing the aged old complaint about NPC AI being dumb down with mechanics like thread/aggro systems/ holy Trinity.

But when you stop and think about it. If we abandoned all that, and replaced NPC with advanced AI, wouldnt fighting against NPCs be pretty much a simulation of PvP at that point? The AI would behave very human player like. All PvE would turn into a simulated PvP match. I dont see how you could even beat a NPC Boss with Player level Artificial Intelligence, unless there was some major holes in the boss combat to exploit.

Would something like that even be appealing in your opinion? or perhaps the traditional Aggro/Threat System/Trinity is good enough without all the advanced AI?

kitarad · December 2023

The difference between a human and AI is that humans make mistakes. If you have an AI that can anticipate your moves and block your advancement your game will quickly die. No one enjoys losing constantly.

Scot · December 2023

The difference would be that humans and AI make different sorts of mistakes. The AI wouldn't go to the cash shop and try to P2W for example.

ValdemarJ · December 2023

kitarad said:

The difference between a human and AI is that humans make mistakes. If you have an AI that can anticipate your moves and block your advancement your game will quickly die. No one enjoys losing constantly.

Guild Wars 1 players might recall a post by Gaile Gray explaining that balancing their NPC AI was an ongoing process because it needed to appear challenging to players, but still let them beat it.

That was a decade ago or so. Imagine how sophisticated that can be now. I got such a chuckle out of it.

Human players can be matched based on their performance metrics (or lack of lol) so as long as there is a large pool of players, there is a cheap AI opponent. I guess AI could be custom tuned to each player or group to match against their strengths and weaknesses and predictable tactics. The OP asks a pretty interesting question.

ValdemarJ · December 2023

Scot said:

The difference would be that humans and AI make different sorts of mistakes. The AI wouldn't go to the cash shop and try to P2W for example.

If the AI pool has the equivalent of game cash or some system of purchasing those perks, I think the most certainly would, just like they might choose a loadout for any competitive game, like R6 Siege, Dark and Darker, COD, Insurgency, Tarkov, etc. Don't you think? It doesn't seem fair to exclude the AI for access to those, but there should be a system that meters their availability just like the players.

I know your point is about P2W real money transactions, but it can be the same for "in game" currency consumables and gear.

AI is going to self-improve every match. It should be self-correcting as it continues to collect real world data from matches. Humans do the same, but AI is going to be faster at it.

Brainy · December 2023

The OP question really just seems moot. This already exists. Most game devs dumb down the mobs on purpose. Its really not hard to make the AI beat humans everytime if they want too. All they have to do it increase mob stats and narrow the margin of error, timing etc...

It would only be a problem, if Devs could not control the AI, and the AI purposely beats the humans 100%, then that would be an issue. As long as the Devs can disadvantage the AI then there is no problem.

Hypothetically lets say the AI is so good that it rarely/never makes bad choices. Then all the devs have to do is program in randomness, start giving advantages to players like health, timing, dodge, blocks, more power, higher DPS etc... Right now this is exactly how Devs give AI advantages to compensate. It would just be in reverse and the players would get the advantage.

Luiden · December 2023

Games have already been using some forms of AI algorithms for NPCs, it’s actually not that exciting. Like many have mentioned if it’s not dumbed down then the player will almost always lose, it’s no fun.

For example in college many of us had to write a simple A* algorithm and use it in a tic tack toe game. The result was interesting… if the computer went first it never lost, it always made the best possible moves. If the player went first the best possible result was a tie and that’s if you played everything perfectly. That’s not the experience you want when playing a video game.

What I think is far more interesting is using this technology to create content for games. Create me a 10 step EPIC question in under 100 words. Using this quest, 3D model me every NPC I would meet. Using this quest Model the Boss mob I will fight. Model the zone I will play in etc. In the past humans would have to spend countless hours creating content for games.. now with AI it can be generated and ready for release much faster than ever before. Companies could start releasing expansion packs every 2 months that have more content than the first few EQ2 expansions combined. That’s where stuff gets crazy to think about.

Slapshot1188 · December 2023

Brainy said:

The OP question really just seems moot. This already exists. Most game devs dumb down the mobs on purpose. Its really not hard to make the AI beat humans everytime if they want too. All they have to do it increase mob stats and narrow the margin of error, timing etc...

It would only be a problem, if Devs could not control the AI, and the AI purposely beats the humans 100%, then that would be an issue. As long as the Devs can disadvantage the AI then there is no problem.

Hypothetically lets say the AI is so good that it rarely/never makes bad choices. Then all the devs have to do is program in randomness, start giving advantages to players like health, timing, dodge, blocks, more power, higher DPS etc... Right now this is exactly how Devs give AI advantages to compensate. It would just be in reverse and the players would get the advantage.

I think they key is actually NOT needing to increase the mob stats. They you wouldnt need to do insane damage to overcome some 7 billion HP pool. So PvE and PvE spells and skills can be the same.

For the longest time I felt that eventually PvE and PvE would blend once AI was implemented properly and I think that's likely to happen. It will be interesting to see how people react when they are hunted down by a highway bandit. Some reflexively freak out if it's a player, but what if they can't tell?

Godeau · December 2023

Scot said:

The difference would be that humans and AI make different sorts of mistakes. The AI wouldn't go to the cash shop and try to P2W for example.

Well what if they did and allow AIs unlimited access to the cash shop?

Kyleran · December 2023

Godeau said:

Scot said:

The difference would be that humans and AI make different sorts of mistakes. The AI wouldn't go to the cash shop and try to P2W for example.

Well what if they did and allow AIs unlimited access to the cash shop?

Or they could spend the same amount as the "typical" player does?

Quizzical · December 2023

The best AI is not the strongest AI, but rather, the one that provides the most interesting challenge for players.

Theocritus · December 2023

The difference between a good AI and a PVP player is that the AI isnt a jerk. The AI wont go to the spawn in and kill everyone all day long.

Slapshot1188 · December 2023

Theocritus said:

The difference between a good AI and a PVP player is that the AI isnt a jerk. The AI wont go to the spawn in and kill everyone all day long.

Why not?

cheyane · December 2023

Theocritus said:

The difference between a good AI and a PVP player is that the AI isnt a jerk. The AI wont go to the spawn in and kill everyone all day long.

I encountered AI that spawn camp . I play vanilla WoW on Nyctermoon and the bgs there spawn a whole enemy team and also fill your side too. I went in with just one companion instead of a full party of 4 other companions and myself and at one point the opposite side tried to claim the node in Arathi Basin that we had already turned for our side, it was the sawmill. After I died they spawn camped the graveyard at that node. I was killed three times there before the AI from my side came. So yeah bots do spawn camp seems like it is a valid tactic as far as the AI went.

Plus the AI also chase you if they see you going towards a node and they always bring a healer. Not at all dumb and often they play really well like how they spread out and target different nodes. They also heal each other. I must say in every respect they played better than real players that I have played with in the BGs in live WoW. Only the organised groups that queued up in teams were better on live. As far as pugs went they had nothing over these AI.

During a game in Warsong Gulch the bots were fighting it out in the centre field and it sure looked like how real players used to honour grind in the center in games with real players. I noticed the AI would take the flag but seldom capped it so I kept taking it so we could win. The AI then camped our flag room so that when I came to cap they would kill me and return the flag. Oddly enough despite being in our flag room they didn't take our flag. They just killed me each time I tried to cap. I had to kill the 3 opposing side AI bots to finally cap the flag but because I could not control the bots that were not the ones I actually hired I had no way to ask any bot to come help kill them. That was quite an interesting match played with clever AI that did a smart thing.

The guy running the script on the AI in the server has truly done an amazing job and he is still fine tuning and changing the code to make it better. It's a far cry from how it was when I played it last year.

cheyane · December 2023

There was another Warsong Gulch fight that was so unexpected. I was once again with only one companion who was a healer pally( companions can get pricey). So I put a mark on the flag carrier so that the pally would heal him.

The silly bot took the flag so I defended him and a few other bots I had no control over also helped killed the opposing side bots that came to get the flag back but after we defeated one wave this bot didn't leave and cap he just starting engaging the remaining enemy bots so when the enemy respawned and jumped down from their graveyard (yeah we were under the hill of their graveyard) the enemy bots knew where we were (pretty amazing AI). This time the flag carrier died. My pally could not keep him up because the enemy bots brought the bots that were all _9 so it was quite hard since our flag carrier was _5.

It really annoyed me that the bot did not prioritise capping. That was a flaw in the AI but the bots on our side both buffed and healed the flag carrier. It's really amazing to watch how well they work together. After that I made sure to always go for the flag if I can since the bots don't seem to know how to cap. This problem does not exist in Arathi Basin, there they take nodes all the time and the enemy bots are very aggrssive at taking nodes and defending it.

All said and done when I am in the Bgs I often forget that these are not real players. It's so fluid and organic the progress and no two matches are the same. Except for the capping part they all behave very independently and play like real players. I even had some bot targeting me constantly so much so I began to feel like a nemesis was about and trying to kill me.

The only thing lacking is the chat in the BG which real players would engage in. Otherwise it was really like a bg in live except for the fact that the bots really helped and healed each other .

Scot · December 2023

Godeau said:

Scot said:

The difference would be that humans and AI make different sorts of mistakes. The AI wouldn't go to the cash shop and try to P2W for example.

Well what if they did and allow AIs unlimited access to the cash shop?

Noes!

I was just being facetious guys, reflecting humans own P2W spending in the cash shop. Like Brainy said we know they dumb down mobs as is so we can beat them and think about how many more player like functions the cheater bots can do.

It is a parallel of the real world actually, once AI has "legs" so to speak, they will do everything we do and eventually do it better, hopefully Asimov was right or we are going to have our gooses cooked in about a century.

cheyane · December 2023

AI can be pretty good and fun when tuned properly. Not all knowing and powerful.

Scot · December 2023

cheyane said:

AI can be pretty good and fun when tuned properly. Not all knowing and powerful.

"Thank you for your support" said the Supreme Chatbot AI.

Akulas · December 2023

It already exists but has to be balanced or dumbed down because the difficulty level would be too high for players. If the program is reward with a positive action to kill you then it will show up at your spawn point and keep doing that.

mekhere · December 2023

MMOExposed said:

if AI in MMOs get too advanced, wouldnt all PvE just become PvP?

I made a similar post on the old board, but the community back then didnt respond well to the question. But now with AI/ChatGPt and all the hype around it, I believe people now days can vision what I am talking about more now than back then in the old post.

What sparked the post in the first place, was seeing the aged old complaint about NPC AI being dumb down with mechanics like thread/aggro systems/ holy Trinity.

But when you stop and think about it. If we abandoned all that, and replaced NPC with advanced AI, wouldnt fighting against NPCs be pretty much a simulation of PvP at that point? The AI would behave very human player like. All PvE would turn into a simulated PvP match. I dont see how you could even beat a NPC Boss with Player level Artificial Intelligence, unless there was some major holes in the boss combat to exploit.

Would something like that even be appealing in your opinion? or perhaps the traditional Aggro/Threat System/Trinity is good enough without all the advanced AI?

The AI game your describing is Call of Duty. You're suggesting AI will turn every game into COD.

Sovrath · December 2023

MMOExposed said:

if AI in MMOs get too advanced, wouldnt all PvE just become PvP?

I made a similar post on the old board, but the community back then didnt respond well to the question. But now with AI/ChatGPt and all the hype around it, I believe people now days can vision what I am talking about more now than back then in the old post.

What sparked the post in the first place, was seeing the aged old complaint about NPC AI being dumb down with mechanics like thread/aggro systems/ holy Trinity.

But when you stop and think about it. If we abandoned all that, and replaced NPC with advanced AI, wouldnt fighting against NPCs be pretty much a simulation of PvP at that point? The AI would behave very human player like. All PvE would turn into a simulated PvP match. I dont see how you could even beat a NPC Boss with Player level Artificial Intelligence, unless there was some major holes in the boss combat to exploit.

Would something like that even be appealing in your opinion? or perhaps the traditional Aggro/Threat System/Trinity is good enough without all the advanced AI?

there has been ai that can beat a player for a long time. This is a mistake by many thinking there hasn't. I remember when quake came out there was a bot that was amazingly good. Sometimes I'd beat it but it mostly beat me.

All better ai would do is create better pve. Or at least far more challenging pve.

However developers don't do this because they want there to be a good chance of players beating the npc's in the game.

Theocritus · December 2023

I remember playing a game called Combat Arms....Some guy created a bot that could kill anything in all directions that got within a couple hundred feet of him, no matter which direction he was facing....Im guessing you could do the same with an AI also....Make it to the point wehre its not even a fight really.

richrem1 · December 2023

Let's say both the AI and player are equally capable. In order to give the player the ability to "win", the player would need a slight edge over the AI; either in stats, or equipment capable of countering and striking a hit. I could see this working, but also be very challenging. Perhaps it'd work in favor for hard core players.

From a PvE perspective, your character would need to be "special" in some way. That can be in power or gear, and I don't think I'd have a problem with that. I have read some players don't like the idea of "the chosen one" anymore. It's boring and cliche. So what is the solution? Just make AI weaker, or dumber, so the player can "win"?

DigDuggy · December 2023

I wouldn't equate 'advanced' with PVE. To make an NPC difficult doesn't require an advanced AI. Whether it's special abilities, more hitpoints, healing.... making NPCs hard is easy.

However, let's say, NPCs get to such a level as to be truly advanced. It will not replace 'In your FACE NOOB!

Apraxis · January 12

Current narrow AI (like alpha go) beat any human without any chance for the human. They also proofed it in DotA and other games. Actual advanced AI/AGI would most probably in a game adjust to the enemy and be exactly that good/bad that it is the perfect fit, the perfect challenge for any possible player.

But we are not there yet.

AI in current games is not even worth the term AI. Because it's not.

Apraxis · January 12

and in pvp your enemy is either a lot worst than you(no challange), a lot better than you(no challenge for him and you are just a victim), or if you are lucky more or less like you. (and you have a nice fight). And most probably on top of it he will either bitch because you steamrolled him if you win, or piss on you if he win and call you a noob, and corpse camp you if possible.

Advanced AI/AGI could actually behave like a character of this world. And if it is a bad game, will guarantee that you win at the end.. but that would be rather boring. At least for me. Because it is so advanced that it can fake a good fight, where it looks like you might lose, but still make you win. Booooring.

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if AI in MMOs get too advanced, wouldnt all PvE just become PvP?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV