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Sandbox MMORPG's?
Darksand
Member Posts: 37
Well, maybe i just didn't look far enough during my quest of replacing SWG with another MMO. But why aren't there more real Sandbox MMo's out there? While in the single player market, the best are Sandbox games. Elder Scrolls comes to mind. Also the GTA series are Sandboxish for its Genre. But my real question actualy is: Why is Soe trying to un-sandbox SWG.
This is whats bothering me, SWG didnt fail becouse it was to complex, Elder scrolls is complex too, still the game is so fun, that actualy all the complexness will be learned bit by bit when you explore the world. This was what happened to me in SWG. The first weeks i had no clue about specials, I had em, i just didnt know how to use em yet, also i ran around for a month with 1000 Battle Fatigue untill i found out I had it and how to remove it, bottomline, it didn't make my game less fun. Also, al these mistakes I made say i totaly didnt read any manuals or did any research, and still i had fun. So my conclusion still would be, that complexness doesnt mather, as long there is still fun to have, and thats why i think that SOE went the wrong direction.
Comments
The uniqueness and complexness of SWG WAS its sandbox nature. Sadly, very few games offer real sandbox play. They are always missing something that, in my opinion, made SWG a true next-generation MMO.
To me, the complex nature was the fun...you never ran out of things to do or things to learn about. It was like a real world.
QFE there.
But i have analized these changes to oblivion. Again, why did they choose this path?
I am looking at it this way, they had a low sub base for an SW game, i can agree to that. So for a company, who want to make money, the conclusion that they needed to change something was good. But why this path? an obvious wrong path? everybody can see that.
Still these changes had to happen for a reason, and i dont think it had to do with complexness of the game, becouse, did it get easier? Hell no, i was more confused then ever, however this wasn't because of complexness, i got confused by its garbagness. I just tried the trial, and still I am confused. Weapons with 1-9 damage does the same as weapons with 11-40 damage for instance. But they did one thing right, the whole game feels simpler, but more in a context as Cheaper.
So, still seeing a larger whole here, still searching for the reason why. I think not the game became simpler, but the code, so they can make Cheap expansions every 6 months. Luckily we, the community got them to stop this (they stopped on develloping a expantion).
So why do i think they made the code simpler? Easy: they threw out Animations, Weapon Damage, Heavy Weapons only to bring it back now? that would be a stupid thing for a company this size. No they threw it out because they recoded the whole game so they could make more chocolate of it (dutch expression, they didnt know how the old code worked, or not well enough to build fast expantions on it). On the new code they build their new heavy weapons system. Also the previous expantions came with their dumbed down CU's, again, Wooky world would have taken to long to code on the old system, so they just threw out all the Mob stats and layerd the level system ontop on it, wich we know now, didnt work.
Well enoug for now
First off, I started playing in June of 04 so I never
experienced the initial shittyness of the game.
I would say that 250k of the 300k players that was playing
throughout 2004 were pretty happy with the SW sandbox. The ongoing whining on
the forum was mostly (other aspects of the game was complained about too) the
part of the playerbase geared towards PvP and rightly so.
Looking back I think this is what should have been done:
focus on the GCW content (a la Restuss coming soon)
content
“more in-depth” tutorial with GCW elements so new players was compelled to
stay instead of thinking “This isn’t Star Wars!?” or “What do I do now!?”
Out of the 1 million boxes sold at that time I bet a lot of
those 700k people that didn’t continue playing never had tried a MMO before so
sure they wanted a “Star Warsy” experience. SOE isn’t wrong in that aspect.
Personally I was more than happy with preCU and have never really cared about the GCW but I DO understand its importance as a game incentiveAs you say the sandbox wasn’t the problem. I’d say the
“balance issue” wasn’t the problem ether. It was the overall buggy, no
direction game that turned the players off. Those 250-300k already playing had
overcome those obstacles. With the changes SOE made they alienated their current
players and the game for new players was still about the same… no GCW
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
sry to disagree but $ WOW G would not be big - why ?
WOW targets - MMO players + fantasy fans
SWG targets (This is where SOE get it wrong) - MMO players + Sci-Fi fans + FPS players + younger players + Players from certain country
SWG is not for a general target audience its been made for one kind of player - pretty odvious SOE know nothing about this (you dont change the thing you have in common with all other MMO's and claim its to atract other MMO players - Targeting system) - even if they put the targeting system back to what it was, you scratch the FPS player from target audience but this game still apeals to a certain player rather than the general MMO player.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
It's not... SoR is more like AO than anything else. It's got SOME of the elements needed for sandbox style but it's level based rather than skill based (you level to get skills, not the other way around) and everyone is the same.
It's "ok" but it's no sandbox.
UO is the only other "sandbox" out there right now. Believe it or not the only other game close to being a sandbox is Shadowbane (which happens to be free to play).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Star Wars Galaxies never had 1 million subscribers. They had at its peak 300,000 subscribers. That statement about 1 million units sold is including the original boxed set, JTL and ROTW and the Total Experience combined.
Plus alot of people bought the original box set, than bought JTL and added it to their current account and than bought the Total Experience and added it to their current account to get the BARC speeder, right there are three box sets but only 1 subscriber account. Plus there are some people who got banned for exploits, cheating, ebaying, etc. and had to buy a new box set and start up a new account. All in all, SOE had about 300,000 subscribers at this games peak. As of now it is less than 100,000 (don't know the exact number).
And don't bother with MMORPGCHART.com that guy is just a guy, like you or me, with a site. He does not have any deep throats spilling their guts about their companys to him. He simply guesses when there isn't any official word from these gaming companies. Only once has SOE spouted about their SWG when it broke 300,000 and he posted it on his chart. Since than they have never announced their subscriber numbers, and now he is just guessing (and a very poor guess it is). They did anounce they sold 1 milion units, but like I said that number means nothing.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
but as for sandbox games, what about ultima online? i'm still wondering where the games are that match this one. graphics need to be updated, but just read on about all the things you can do (and have been able to do for years), which the newer, weaker games can't.
grow and crossbreed plants.
have a living aquarium.
both of these occasionally produce something interesting for you to take and keep.
completely customizable housing. i believe this includes things like caves and outdoor areas; all of which can be set to public access or restricted to you and your buds.
a ton of skills that you can learn/unlearn (just like in swg), they've added chivalry (paladin), necromancy, bushido (samurai) and ninjitsu since last i played. i know they still have law/chaos factions, not sure if they've implemented good/evil (still reading up on it here and there).
no raid instances.
i guess it's diablo-esque loot stuff nowadays. each item can have a myriad of attack/defense/utility bonuses.
tons of tameable beasts and monsters.
i don't really care a lot for the non-pvp areas, but there's still a lot of areas that are open pvp.
i have to read some more, but if your faction takes cities in felucca, you can place different npc merchants for raw mats and such. plus i believe it's hostile towards people of your enemy faction(s). so players can have an effect on the world and i'm pretty sure that's been in place for a few years.
a lot of people complain about needing a super new computer to play games with the latest and greatest graphics. well, swg didn't have the best graphics, but it was still a blast. same with UO. same old graphics from 9 years ago, but good lord man, i don't think they'll ever implement even half of UO's options into games like this new swg, wow, whatever. i take that back, they also have a 3d client you can run instead of the 2d one; but um, yeah, it just didn't impress me that much.
edited to add:
they have also added a number of quest givers. not sure if that's good or bad.
but the bigger thing i forgot are the treasure maps and fishing. treasure maps are both land and sea and fishing can dig up sea monsters and sunken treasures.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Star Wars Galaxies never had 1 million subscribers. They had at its peak 300,000 subscribers. That statement about 1 million units sold is including the original boxed set, JTL and ROTW and the Total Experience combined.
Plus alot of people bought the original box set, than bought JTL and added it to their current account and than bought the Total Experience and added it to their current account to get the BARC speeder, right there are three box sets but only 1 subscriber account. Plus there are some people who got banned for exploits, cheating, ebaying, etc. and had to buy a new box set and start up a new account. All in all, SOE had about 300,000 subscribers at this games peak. As of now it is less than 100,000 (don't know the exact number).
And don't bother with MMORPGCHART.com that guy is just a guy, like you or me, with a site. He does not have any deep throats spilling their guts about their companys to him. He simply guesses when there isn't any official word from these gaming companies. Only once has SOE spouted about their SWG when it broke 300,000 and he posted it on his chart. Since than they have never announced their subscriber numbers, and now he is just guessing (and a very poor guess it is). They did anounce they sold 1 milion units, but like I said that number means nothing.
on this same token, keep in mind that the popular fotm games like wow, also have numbers jacked a tad. how many people own multiple accounts that play wow? multiple accounts are standard operating procedure (sop) for many hardcore and semi-hardcore gamers. do you include third world gold farmers as actual players? i know they count as subs, but do YOU (you being whomever plays the games) really count them as players? then throw in the kids that are flocking to games like wow cuz of the myriad of reasons listed elsewhere (blizznet kids, pretty and bright colors, etc). so while numbers are askew for swg, i daresay they are askew in most every mmo for a variety of reasons.
thing is, if you play with a group of offline friends/family; then, odds are whatever you guys are saying/thinking about the game(s); that's what everyone else is saying/thinking as well. if you've got a couple of younger teen nephews that play and they think a game is cool cuz of X and Y; well, odds are the other younger teens will like THAT game for those same reasons. same line of thinking going to everyone else (and the portion of the populace they represent).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Star Wars Galaxies never had 1 million subscribers. They had at its peak 300,000 subscribers. That statement about 1 million units sold is including the original boxed set, JTL and ROTW and the Total Experience combined.
Plus alot of people bought the original box set, than bought JTL and added it to their current account and than bought the Total Experience and added it to their current account to get the BARC speeder, right there are three box sets but only 1 subscriber account. Plus there are some people who got banned for exploits, cheating, ebaying, etc. and had to buy a new box set and start up a new account. All in all, SOE had about 300,000 subscribers at this games peak. As of now it is less than 100,000 (don't know the exact number).
And don't bother with MMORPGCHART.com that guy is just a guy, like you or me, with a site. He does not have any deep throats spilling their guts about their companys to him. He simply guesses when there isn't any official word from these gaming companies. Only once has SOE spouted about their SWG when it broke 300,000 and he posted it on his chart. Since than they have never announced their subscriber numbers, and now he is just guessing (and a very poor guess it is). They did anounce they sold 1 milion units, but like I said that number means nothing.
Ok, I didn't remeber when the 1 mill boxes was stated and thought it was before CU. I thank you for correcting me but where did I state SWG had 1 mill contemporary subs? I used the 300k figure in my post
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
Star Wars Galaxies never had 1 million subscribers. They had at its peak 300,000 subscribers. That statement about 1 million units sold is including the original boxed set, JTL and ROTW and the Total Experience combined.
Plus alot of people bought the original box set, than bought JTL and added it to their current account and than bought the Total Experience and added it to their current account to get the BARC speeder, right there are three box sets but only 1 subscriber account. Plus there are some people who got banned for exploits, cheating, ebaying, etc. and had to buy a new box set and start up a new account. All in all, SOE had about 300,000 subscribers at this games peak. As of now it is less than 100,000 (don't know the exact number).
And don't bother with MMORPGCHART.com that guy is just a guy, like you or me, with a site. He does not have any deep throats spilling their guts about their companys to him. He simply guesses when there isn't any official word from these gaming companies. Only once has SOE spouted about their SWG when it broke 300,000 and he posted it on his chart. Since than they have never announced their subscriber numbers, and now he is just guessing (and a very poor guess it is). They did anounce they sold 1 milion units, but like I said that number means nothing.
Nobody said that they had 1 million subscribers. They stated that 1 million people had bought the game. If you're going to correct him, at least do it correctly. And, I hate to break this to you, but SirBruce does have insider information on many of the games he is posting numbers for. His accuracy rating for SWG, however, is a C and he states why. Perhaps you should take the time to read his analysis instead of just looking at the purty charts and making assumptions on how he gets his information? He very clearly describes exactly how he obtains his data.
According to SirBruce's data (which has been proven to be quite accurate many times in the past so there's no real reason to doubt him) SWG has, currently, 190k subscribers. (people who have the game activated either individually or specifically activated on their AAP). How many are ACTIVE PLAYERS.... that's another story altogether... SirBruce reports subscribers... not active players.
You can 'assume' the numbers are below 100k all you want. SirBruce at least clearly states HOW he gets his data. While you are just pulling numbers out of thin air.
I suspect that you are correct, however. SWG's *active players* (not subscribers) are probably measured in the 40-60k range. Which is about right when you consider that, on average, about only 1/4-1/3 of an older game's subscribers are actually actively playing the game. Which would measure out to 120k to 240k subscribers.... which, oddly enough, jibes with SirBruces subscriber estimate. 180k falls right in the middle with a +/- 60k margin of error (which makes sense since his rating is a C)... I will say that I suspect the number is closer to 120k subs than to 240k subs though
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Although I'm still on the noob island at the moment, I'm finding that many of the elements in the game are very similar to the pre-CU SWG. Graphics are pretty good, with very nice effects. I'm working on the Fight, Magic and Harvesting lines at the moment. Haven't gotten into Crafting yet. If I continue to play, I'll probably stay on the island until I've brought all skills to level 20, and then teleport to the main player area.
I particularly like the AI where the non-agro critters will actually see you and come up to you to say 'hello'. Nice touch.
I'm having some networking issues with the game, however. It is apparently an issue the game has had for years, and it has to do specifically with Linksys routers (they even have an FAQ about it on their web site). I've implemented the fix, and after some initial indications that it didn't work, there have been periods since where I've been able to play for long periods (longer than 10 minutes) without losing the server.
Also, the Ryzom Ring (player-created game content) thing has the potential to be very cool, an inovative touch for MMOs if it is done well.
I'd still run giggling to a pre-CU SWG server, but Ryzom might satisfy my SWG cravings for a while, especially if it turns out to be a deep game (won't know that for a while yet). Who knows, if I get enough time invested into Ryzom, I may not feel a need to return to SWG.
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As ye SOE, so shall ye weep.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As ye SOE, so shall ye weep.
WOW at 1 second of the night on a friday night there were 11k players online? Yes, I know all about that data. I saw it when it was originally posted and even have the URL to his website.
But.... What about the other 86,000 seconds of the day? There are 24 hours in a day. The average gamer plays between 2-3 hours. So if you multiply 11k out by 4 that's 44k players online over the course of the day (if those players play 6 hours a day, which they don't but I don't feel like trying to extrapolate the differences between peak time and non peak time since the person who took the snapshot didn't bother to get snapshots every 30 minutes or every hour which would have given a truer picture of the actual number of active players that day).
So, yeah.. 11k every 6 hours.... 4x11k = 44k Active players that Friday... as a rough educated guess.
Looks like my number is pretty accurate, doncha think?
EDIT:
What the heck, my wife isn't home yet (she's running late from work) so I'll do some basic statistical analysis (note: it's BASIC don't come throwing differential equations or trending at me, I don't feel like doing that crap and, as i said, the sample size cited by the above poster is too small to really do that, so we have to use educated guesswork)
So during peak time (roughly 5pm to 2am Eastern - a 9 hour stretch) 11k players are playing at any given point in time (Sample size cited above). Given the fact that your AVERAGE player plays between 2-3 hours a night that means we have roughly 33k unique players online during peak time.
Then at off hours suspect there's a 50-60% drop in number of players in the 3 hours prior and the 3 hours post peak... so another 10k total there (we're up to 43k players). Then during the rest of the day, Off peak, you probably have 10% of the rest of the population (10% of 43k is 4.3k) so roughly hmmm a total of 48k if we start trying to extrapolate based on educated guess.
As I said if the person who did the captures had taken snapshots at multiple times of the day the data would be more accurate. But as you can see above by using some well known 'norms' for MMORPG's you can extrapolate that there are roughly 40k ACTIVE players in the game. Which jibes with the number I gave.
Happy?
I'm a network engineer. One of my jobs is analyzing useage trends to identify when we need to increase bandwidth, server capacity or both on a 500,000 user network. So yeah... I do this crap daily. (Though our "peak" time is 7am to 4pm in each time zone since that's when folks are at work).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
WOW at 1 second of the night on a friday night there were 11k players online? Yes, I know all about that data. I saw it when it was originally posted and even have the URL to his website.
But.... What about the other 86,000 seconds of the day? There are 24 hours in a day. The average gamer plays between 2-3 hours. So if you multiply 11k out by 4 that's 44k players online over the course of the day (if those players play 6 hours a day, which they don't but I don't feel like trying to extrapolate the differences between peak time and non peak time since the person who took the snapshot didn't bother to get snapshots every 30 minutes or every hour which would have given a truer picture of the actual number of active players that day).
So, yeah.. 11k every 6 hours.... 4x11k = 44k Active players that Friday... as a rough educated guess.
Looks like my number is pretty accurate, doncha think?
EDIT:
What the heck, my wife isn't home yet (she's running late from work) so I'll do some basic statistical analysis (note: it's BASIC don't come throwing differential equations or trending at me, I don't feel like doing that crap and, as i said, the sample size cited by the above poster is too small to really do that, so we have to use educated guesswork)
So during peak time (roughly 5pm to 2am Eastern - a 9 hour stretch) 11k players are playing at any given point in time (Sample size cited above). Given the fact that your AVERAGE player plays between 2-3 hours a night that means we have roughly 33k unique players online during peak time.
Then at off hours suspect there's a 50-60% drop in number of players in the 3 hours prior and the 3 hours post peak... so another 10k total there (we're up to 43k players). Then during the rest of the day, Off peak, you probably have 10% of the rest of the population (10% of 43k is 4.3k) so roughly hmmm a total of 48k if we start trying to extrapolate based on educated guess.
As I said if the person who did the captures had taken snapshots at multiple times of the day the data would be more accurate. But as you can see above by using some well known 'norms' for MMORPG's you can extrapolate that there are roughly 40k ACTIVE players in the game. Which jibes with the number I gave.
Happy?
I'm a network engineer. One of my jobs is analyzing useage trends to identify when we need to increase bandwidth, server capacity or both on a 500,000 user network. So yeah... I do this crap daily. (Though our "peak" time is 7am to 4pm in each time zone since that's when folks are at work).
Pulling numbers out of thin air Elnator?
It's 100x better than SWG even pre-cu.
I'm thankful that SOE made the CU so that I was forced to quit an find EvE.