What Classic WoW has taught us....

Unintended · July 14

Is that everyone at this point would just be happy with a Classic WoW clone built on a popular IP. I think it's ironic for several years after WoW, this is exactly what happened and we all got quickly bored of it. Though I do think they all failed in multiple ways like not having the seamless world or having bad combat etc. However everyone seems to be gagging for that experience again, but just fresh as people are bored of WoW... Which is understandable as it has been almost 20 years now. Specifically what Hardcore Classic WoW taught us is it can still give us that vanilla experience from back in the day. People played Hardcore as if it was 2005, they were scared of the world again and were grouping up and playing safe, they weren't min/maxing like when Classic launched.

I just think it's funny that SOE tried all this crazy stuff with EverQuest Next and if they were making it today, they could get away with just making EverQuest 1 but with better graphics and modern gameplay mechanics. There is no need to do anything crazy as the stream has dried out, no one is making those MMORPGs any more. Seriously make a Harry Potter WoW clone and it'll sell 50 million copies. If those Hogwarts developers aren't doing that, I want to know why.

cameltosis · July 14

In my opinion, its about variety (and pattern recognition).

When we were living through the wow-clone era (themeparks with tactical tab-targeting combat), there wasn't much variety in gameplay. Repeating the same mechanics, with the same trinity combat roles, got stale.

Thats why action combat MMOs took off - because it was different, something new to learn.

But now we're bored of that, because nearly every MMO of the last 10 years has been action combat themepark design. We've learned those patterns, and now we're bored. Classic WoW, in addition to the nostalgia aspect, gave us something different to play again. Even if you played WoW back in the day, it's still been a long time since a game like that has been available today (because all the old tactical themeparks have been "streamlined" / dumbed-down so much that they're very different games to how they were originally).

If Raph Koster's Stars Reach game is a success, I've no doubt we'll see a revival of the genre, a bunch of clones, and then in 5-10 years we'll all be bored of that too and pining for the days of "classic" ESO.

[Deleted User] · July 14

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Unintended · July 14

cameltosis said:

we'll all be bored of that too and pining for the days of "classic" ESO.

I'll never be doing that I thought that game was trash and still do. In fact I think Fallout 76 did a much better job of being faithful to the games it was based on that that.

Angrakhan · July 14

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

Unintended · July 14

Angrakhan said:

Well no because Zelda BotW came out and it went back to a lot of old school design and people loved it. Also people loved WoW Classic and it's way more popular than retail WoW.

vonryan123 · July 14

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

Sorry but most of what you said is pure opinion. No one asked to be milked to death by every new title. No one asked for microtransactions out the wazoo. No one asked for day 1 dlc the list goes on. All I see is gamers have been asking for the same things for years and are being ignored. Most of the time people say what they want and the game company does the almost exact opposite. Take eso as a prime example. Everyone was expecting and asking for a co-op skyrim but is that what they did? No. SWG, no one asked for NGE. I could go on about what game companies do that no one asked for but what good would it do.

achesoma · July 15

Unintended said:

Is that everyone at this point would just be happy with a Classic WoW clone built on a popular IP. I think it's ironic for several years after WoW, this is exactly what happened and we all got quickly bored of it. Though I do think they all failed in multiple ways like not having the seamless world or having bad combat etc. However everyone seems to be gagging for that experience again, but just fresh as people are bored of WoW... Which is understandable as it has been almost 20 years now. Specifically what Hardcore Classic WoW taught us is it can still give us that vanilla experience from back in the day. People played Hardcore as if it was 2005, they were scared of the world again and were grouping up and playing safe, they weren't min/maxing like when Classic launched.

I just think it's funny that SOE tried all this crazy stuff with EverQuest Next and if they were making it today, they could get away with just making EverQuest 1 but with better graphics and modern gameplay mechanics. There is no need to do anything crazy as the stream has dried out, no one is making those MMORPGs any more. Seriously make a Harry Potter WoW clone and it'll sell 50 million copies. If those Hogwarts developers aren't doing that, I want to know why.

That's exactly what SWTOR did. It was literally a Star Wars WoW clone.

Germzypie · July 15

I can think of a handful of old mmo's i would play again if they were re-released under an updated graphics engine and revamped combat.....DAoC and EQ for sure.

Sovrath · July 15

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

KnightFalz · July 15

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

The thing is when people say they want old school it is often only particular aspects of it they enjoyed and those are the only ones they want brought forward. If any part they didn't like is brought along with then it becomes a bad game in their view.

Not only is the audience for such niche it is fragmented. It's hard to get a new game with old school tendencies established in these conditions.

vonryan123 · July 15

KnightFalz said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

The thing is when people say they want old school it is often only particular aspects of it they enjoyed and those are the only ones they want brought forward. If any part they didn't like is brought along with then it becomes a bad game in their view.

Not only is the audience for such niche it is fragmented. It's hard to get a new game with old school tendencies established in these conditions.

I think again that's more opinion than fact. In my case SWG could come back with better graphics NGE or not and I would be in like slim.

Sovrath · July 15

vonryan123 said:

KnightFalz said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

The thing is when people say they want old school it is often only particular aspects of it they enjoyed and those are the only ones they want brought forward. If any part they didn't like is brought along with then it becomes a bad game in their view.

Not only is the audience for such niche it is fragmented. It's hard to get a new game with old school tendencies established in these conditions.

I think again that's more opinion than fact. In my case SWG could come back with better graphics NGE or not and I would be in like slim.

But I would think his point is that there are people who want old school games but might not like certain aspects of old school games.

For some fast travel, or more of it, is the sticking point. Others don’t want limited inventory. Others don’t want to make maps and might want quests or npc’s clearly indicated on the map. Others might insist that the player character be indicated on the map.

length of leveling?
heavy death penalties?
more group based?

not to mention some requiring current graphics and animations.

Unintended · July 16

I think again that's more opinion than fact. In my case SWG could come back with better graphics NGE or not and I would be in like slim.

Hopefully not the NGE lol. I've recently been going down memory lane with SWG in all my old files that I've kept..... I realise the game was never good lol. I built up this perfect imagine of it in my head, but all I did for two years was complain on the forums. I forget just how broken it was and I just remember the good things like the atmosphere on Tatooine was amazing. However every single part of that game was broken and nothing ever worked as intended and SOE just couldn't get a grip of the game. I forget how it took six months just to get the game playable, then once they did that they instantly ruined it with Jedi lol. I love the ambition of SWG, but it was a terrible game that I've somehow built up to be this amazing thing.

Looking back at all my old files, it was clear that WoW was the first polished MMO ever made. Every MMO was broken and a patch would come out and take the servers down for days. Beyond the launch of WoW which was only poor for a couple weeks because of how many people were trying to play. WoW just never had any problems, people moan about balance and stuff like that, but the game wasn't fundamentally broken.

I'm looking at stuff with SWG and how Bria was down for weeks and SOE didn't care to address it but offering server transfers where you'd lose all your stuff :S

In fact my hatred towards SOE has been intensified seeing how horrible they were. You can only blame Smedley as he was in charge and I'm reading posts he has made and yeah he was a total knob. No surprise what happened to him going off on Twitter on reflection

Unintended · July 16

achesoma said:

That's exactly what SWTOR did. It was literally a Star Wars WoW clone.

It wasn't because it had no world, you just say in a hub and warped everywhere...... Which is actually like modern WoW lol.

However back in 2011 everyone was sick of WoW clones. I think now people are pining for one because the genre died on it's arse. You have the Final Fantasy fans keeping it alive, but I cannot stand Final Fantasy so I do not pay much attention to that game.

Theocritus · July 16

Germzypie said:

I can think of a handful of old mmo's i would play again if they were re-released under an updated graphics engine and revamped combat.....DAoC and EQ for sure.

Add Anarchy Online to that list!

Theocritus · July 16

I enjoyed the original WoW vanilla experience...I think beta testing was the most enjoyment I had with the game.....but I didnt want to go back again.....Its like watching an old movie you have seen 20 times.....Some people can do that, some people cant.

Gorwe · July 17

Theocritus said:

I enjoyed the original WoW vanilla experience...I think beta testing was the most enjoyment I had with the game.....but I didnt want to go back again.....Its like watching an old movie you have seen 20 times.....Some people can do that, some people cant.

Let me say like this: depends on the movie. Some are highly rewatchable, some are not.

cameltosis · July 17

Gorwe said:

Theocritus said:

I enjoyed the original WoW vanilla experience...I think beta testing was the most enjoyment I had with the game.....but I didnt want to go back again.....Its like watching an old movie you have seen 20 times.....Some people can do that, some people cant.

Let me say like this: depends on the movie. Some are highly rewatchable, some are not.

Jurassic Park......

I watch that film, well, a lot! Or at least the first half, I watch it when falling asleep! Rarely make it past the T-Rex attack!

Theocritus · July 17

When I think about going back to games like Classic WoW, I ask myself "do I really want to run all those quests again to level up" and the answer typically is no.....For me, it seems easier to go back to teh MMOs where I just ran around and explored and killed stuff....Games like WoW, LoTRO, EQ2, etc where questing is most of the play really dont interest me to go back and do it again.

Dibdabs · July 17

It taught us to never, ever play WoW. True story.

mekhere · July 19

Classic WoW taught us that casual gamers do not enjoy:

1. Slower paced gaming with a focus on strategy and teamwork.
2. Group play, challenging combat, intricate character progression, difficult solo leveling, and death penalties.
3. Limited Communication between realms and players.

Classic WoW taught us that casual gamers do enjoy:

1. The like Cross-realming. They love open borders and cheating.
2. The enjoy streamlined leveling, talent trees, and gear progression.
3. PvP that is less focused on territorial control.

WoW represents accessibility, Casual gamers do not enjoy a challenge. They do not find pleasure in solving problems. They want a game where they can always win because they never win at real life.

Vanilla WoW is like Chocolate Chip Cookies. It's so easy, and enjoyable, you always smile about it.

Angrakhan · July 19

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

Aren't good because why? Aren't good because the development team lacks the technical attitude to build an MMO that scales, or aren't good because once people are forced to take off the rose colored glasses and play the game they say they want to play on gaming forums they find out that those games were actually bad all along?

Ever go back and fire up EQ or DAoC? It's pretty painful even with all the QoL stuff they added. Those games would fail if they were released as brand new today.

Theocritus · July 19

"Vanilla WoW is like Chocolate Chip Cookies. It's so easy, and enjoyable, you always smile about it."

Not a good comparison at all....Ive been eating chocolate chip cookies since 3 years old...WoW lasted about a year or two......I got tired of WoW, never tired of chocolate chip cookies.

KnightFalz · July 20

vonryan123 said:

KnightFalz said:

Sovrath said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

That’s kind of BS isn’t it?

These games shut down because they aren’t finished or aren’t good.

The thing is when people say they want old school it is often only particular aspects of it they enjoyed and those are the only ones they want brought forward. If any part they didn't like is brought along with then it becomes a bad game in their view.

Not only is the audience for such niche it is fragmented. It's hard to get a new game with old school tendencies established in these conditions.

I think again that's more opinion than fact. In my case SWG could come back with better graphics NGE or not and I would be in like slim.

That it is the graphics alone that prevent you from now enjoying SWG confirms the selectivity of appreciation for games past that I contended.

It's factual enough in the vast majority of cases. Where it doesn't apply is to those that actually play the games they claim to favour.

KnightFalz · July 20

vonryan123 said:

Angrakhan said:

I always laugh at people who pine away for the old school games where there was no mini map or quest markers, you had to group up to even level unless you picked one of a few classes that could solo, even finding quests involved knowing what to say to which NPC to even start it because there was no indication the NPC even offered a quest. By in large this is all rose colored glasses because when these people actually get an Indy game built like that the log in and say "oh wow this is complete shit". The game typically shuts down for lack of players. There's a reason we got to where we are with games, and it wasn't game companies just unilaterally deciding to ruin games. No the were just implementing the QOL features the players asked for.

Sorry but most of what you said is pure opinion. No one asked to be milked to death by every new title. No one asked for microtransactions out the wazoo. No one asked for day 1 dlc the list goes on. All I see is gamers have been asking for the same things for years and are being ignored. Most of the time people say what they want and the game company does the almost exact opposite. Take eso as a prime example. Everyone was expecting and asking for a co-op skyrim but is that what they did? No. SWG, no one asked for NGE. I could go on about what game companies do that no one asked for but what good would it do.

Why would people buy a MMORPG expecting a co-op game? They aren't the same thing. Any that did so only have themselves to blame for their disappointment.

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