Should MMOs Force Grouping As Part Of Progression? | MMORPG.com

System · October 3

Should MMOs Force Grouping As Part Of Progression? | MMORPG.com

As more and more MMOs hone in on single player content, it feels like the social elements of the genre are eroding a bit. Should MMOs force grouping in content, especially main story progression?

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Sovrath · October 3

omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.

Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.

OrwellRand · October 3

If you would have asked me in 2005 or sometime around there, I would say grouping is the reason you play these games, BUT, ever since MMO's have adopted an "e-sport" piece and the introduction of streamers, it's destroyed grouping.

Grouping now is some nasty person telling everyone they aren't holding their weight. "Casual" raid guilds in WoW now expect people to play their classes to perfection and if not, they need to have a talk with you.

e-sports and streamers have sucked the fun out grouping and made it a full time job. That's why Im so glad that WoW actually added Delves and has multiple ways to have fun solo. I was tired of dealing with the "leets", who have infested the entire gaming world.

Germzypie · October 3

As former DAoC player, i loved the aspects of grouping and being in ventrillo trying to conquer the world. But, as an older player, i for the most part cannot stand grouping with this new genre of players. Maybe i am just getting senile.

Elidien_ga · October 3

I like options. So right now, I love that delves are soloable and I love that I can do story mode dungeons with NPCs and see the end of stories in raids with the new mode. But at the same time, I do run LFR and do group when its convenient and I can.

For me, I have 2 kids, 5 cats, a full-time job, married, house to care for, etc... rarely will I have 30 minutes where I am uninterrupted. I do not group because I do not want to be AFK a lot and be a detriment. I dont group, not because I am not a good player, but because I feel like I will interfere negatively with other's gaming.

Back in my DAOC days, I lived at home and was single and I could sit in a dungeon and grind and pull mobs for hours on end. I loved it but now its not possible. I cannot wake up at 3am to run a keep raid.....well, I am awake anyway but thats due to old age.

Grouping is fine but give me options. Most of all do not gate me or lock me out of content unless a I group (in terms of quests and story, I am fine with groups having content I will not see unless I group). I think WOW is on to something now with story mode dungeons, to normals, to heroics. and now to like mythic +10 or whatever. I can make the content what I want and I like that.

I would like to add too that with New World, I hated being forced to do dungeons to see content and advance the story. The issu became that either you keep up with the hardcore players or get left behind. And if you get left behind, you will be damned and cursed if you do not know the fights or its your first time in a dungeon. The New World community is not known for its patience and understanding with new players (but thats a whole other argument).

Slapshot1188 · October 3

Know your target audience and stick with it.

If you want to make an "MMO" for solo players, then make an "MMO" for solo players.

If you want to make a traditional MMO which obviously includes the need to group, then make a traditional MMO.

Not every game has to be made for every player. Doing so may widen the potential audience but dilutes the game experience and results in high churn. Pick you lane and stay there.

cdubbz · October 3

Trying to force people to group up doesn't work that well. Part of the draw for MMOs years ago was that for many like myself they were a way to socialize, meet people, and make friends. There are so many other avenues to do that nowadays that if I'm playing a game I'd rather play a game that is engaging and interesting because of the gameplay aspects of it. Most MMO's don't offer that, their gameplay is usually pretty simple at it's core. I kind of feel like making more MMO-lite experiences might be a better way to do it; have a central hub where you can see people running around, talk to people, group up, and go do content. Or perhaps something akin to the Souls games could work, where you can see other player "ghosts" running around and maybe send them an invitation to group up. Regardless forcing people to group up is a recipe for disaster, like sitting the star student next to a problem student because the teacher thinks they'll be a good influence. They're not, and it just makes both students miserable.

Wargfoot · October 3

I should be able to progress without logging into the game.
Let me know when you've got that worked out.

Wargfoot · October 3

I'd like to see a distinction between 'grouping' and 'community'.
I like community (buy/sell/trade/information/tips/occasional optional groups) and hate grouping.

Aeander · October 3

Sure, if they want to be dead in 3 months.

Scot · October 3

"game director Scot Lane was quite clear that the drop off of players was very clearly at this first forced group content"

I think the writing was on the wall for New World before players got to that. Players on here were not talking about expeditions being the reason why they left. But I can believe that having already decided they were not going to stay, dropping out before they had to start forming groups and possibly connections with other players was a likely factor.

There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.

Wargfoot · October 3

Scot said:

There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.

Actually, New World did that in the sense that there was a low-level quest you couldn't complete (couldn't even enter the dungeon) without a group.

Nebless · October 3

Sovrath said:

omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping."

As part of the DAOC tutorial you were required to form a group or you couldn't complete it.

KnightFalz · October 3

Sovrath said:

omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.

Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.

Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.

Sovrath · October 3

KnightFalz said:

Sovrath said:

omg, there's no such thing as "forced grouping." If the game has grouping then consider it a "grouping game" and be done with it.

Now, I will say that getting a group together for one "quick" quest is not the answer. There should be several things in a row that require grouping so as to justify the effort it takes at getting people together.

Any game with content that can only be cleared by groups has an element of forced grouping. It is not literally forced as one need not do that content but it is effectively so for those that want to complete it.

Forced means you are doing something against your will.

If a game has a lot of grouping content then people have to assess whether or not that is something for them.

Otherwise it’s all “forced.” Forced grouping, forced solo, forced everything.

Or, these are the activities in the game that one has to do in order to progress.

Quizzical · October 3

MMORPGs should enable grouping as part of progression. Make it practical for players to quickly get a group for whatever group content they want. That's very different from forcing grouping. Far too many games say that you must group to play some content, but also make it impractical to actually get a group.

ShinyFlygon · October 3

Short answer to the headline question: No. MMOs should get rid of progression, not grouping.

Longer answer, more in the spirit of the piece: No, but they should not try to mix the two styles in the same game.

If you want your game to be about group content, make it so that there is literally no way to play solo. Most of the PvP shooters are structured this way, so it is definitely possible.

If you want your game to be about soloing, make it 100 percent soloable, not solo to level up and then required grouping from that point on. It makes no sense to train players to play one way and then flip a switch and expect them to play a completely different game when they hit max level.

KnightFalz · October 3

Wargfoot said:

Scot said:

There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.

Actually, New World did that in the sense that there was a low-level quest you couldn't complete (couldn't even enter the dungeon) without a group.

Indeed, showing that forced grouping can exist by design. Part of NW:A is removing at least some of that need.

KnightFalz · October 3

The more group dependent a MMORPG is made the more limited the potential audience will be to those that favour playing in groups. If the game makers feel the MMORPG genre can make do with that smaller potential customer base they can make the games as group dependent as they like and see how it goes.

Wargfoot · October 3

KnightFalz said:

Wargfoot said:

Scot said:

There is no such thing as forced grouping btw, because if there was we would also have "forced soloing" as the vast majority of MMO content nowadays is made for solo players.

Actually, New World did that in the sense that there was a low-level quest you couldn't complete (couldn't even enter the dungeon) without a group.

Indeed, showing that forced grouping can exist by design. Part of NW:A is removing at least some of that need.

What Sovrath is getting at is the idea that none of us are forced to do anything in any game whatsover. I agree with his response only because, as an old bitter gamer, I'm tired of people complaining about games having core features they dislike -when they're the ones that bought the game.

The response seems pedantic, but after years of watching people compare PvP to getting raped (I'm not joking there) because it was "non-consensual" the distinction is merited.

I know you're aware of all of this, so yeah, grouping is 'forced' in NWA in the sense it is necessary to progress, but that is a feature, so don't buy the game.

Wargfoot · October 3

I don't like the forced posting on this board.
I need a word with management.

Slapshot1188 · October 3

Wargfoot said:

I don't like the forced posting on this board.
I need a word with management.

True. I also do not like the way we are forced to group in games like Baseball, football, soccer. They should all be like boxing where I get to still have an audience in an arena but I don't have to depend on others. Solo sports are the only true path to success.

cheyane · October 3

It's a personal viewpoint that no amount of sound reasoning will change. Anything a player perceives as a barrier to their advancement is considered forced and you won't convince them otherwise.

It's generally an accepted view on every forum that a majority of the posters agree with. It is of course a question of choice when you decide to play a game whether grouping is required. If it is and then necessary to advance it becomes forced in their opinion. If it is not required to advance then it isn't forced. Again perception is everything and reality when the two collide is ugly. That is why you see in forums ... 'Is grouping forced?' You can go there and write it's the game design and not forced and no one cares for that reply. They just want to know is grouping or PvP forced. They are not interested in the semantics they just want to know is it 'forced'.

I play games with PvP and I generally avoid it every way I can think of and manage. I don't cry it is forced but if I cannot advance at all when a developer has held out to players like me that I can then I would consider it a lie and forced. I don't care how difficult it is as long as it can be done. This is the part most players don't get, there are players like me who enjoy the way these PvP games are designed but not the PvP and as long as I can manage it and make progress I am content.

Similarly how a game is promoted and shown is also key to people's impression and feelings when things are then revealed to be different. If a game shows you that you can quest solo and advance and get gear without doing group content but when you play the game this is not the case then hell yes it will be forced as far as the player is concerned.

It is all about what is marketed and promoted and lies the developer tells to sell games. This is the part I will absolutely agree with when a player complains about 'forced' content.

Do you know there are developers that do not tell players that when you use a flag for no PvP it only restrict the player and not the other person that attacks you. Players discovered it then it was revealed. Why didn't the developer highlight this when selling their game. Or that there is a timer and you have to buy an item for real money to avoid it. Scumbags one and all.

OrwellRand · October 3

Btw, your quote in the article: "One of the major reasons why I've always loved MMOs is that I was constantly put in situations where I was playing with other people and had to overcome the challenges of working together towards a common goal. And through that play, a natural byproduct is creating friendships and relationships that, at times, can transcend the screen."

Is EXACTLY how I felt back when grouping was built on a more social scale.

It's not really like this anymore. I wish it was, but I'd be lying if I said it was.

Kyleran · October 3

Wargfoot said:

I should be able to progress without logging into the game.
Let me know when you've got that worked out.

Finally you understand, you've already won.

kitarad · October 3

I enjoy grouping but not the roulette that was the WoW pug. God this truly turned me off grouping as a healer for good. I now play only with people I know otherwise I solo and I also love games where I can get companions that enable me to handle difficult content.

It's sad that I hardly group. I do love grouping in City of Heroes though. No pressure there. Play any build and you're welcomed.

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