And clearly this was a transaction. Just as exploration ship purchases were. Unless you're arguing the absurd 'it's just a donation' position? Which would only work if CIG were a registered charity. Or indeed a religion
No they weren't, it's why they are called Stretch GOALS.
You back the project your money goes towards it's creator to make it like he wants it. That means the original vision can and most likely will change along the way.
That's it, your not buying X planets or X systems that's like the dumbest take ever lol
When you back a project the money goes towards the creating making the described product.
There's a very large margin where the creator can do changes as needed. If RSI had decided that large systems are better than small systems and changed it from 100 small systems into 5 large systems instead that would be within their rights.
However RSI changed into large systems a decade ago. At this point it's not one decision where they'd have changed from a lot of small systems into a few big ones, but two decisions: First when they increased the system size. Second where they announced that they fail to deliver 95% of the planned systems.
Their failure to deliver this probably isn't significant enough to cause any legal consequences for people who just bought the base game since Star Citizen is still planning to be a big game with a lot of different stuff and exploring new star systems is just one part of that.
There's a good chance it's important enough failure that people who've bought a ship or package aimed for exploration could demand refund and/or take legal action.
When you back a project the money goes towards the creating making the described product.
There's a very large margin where the creator can do changes as needed. If RSI had decided that large systems are better than small systems and changed it from 100 small systems into 5 large systems instead that would be within their rights.
The money goes towards whatever the creators vision decides. A crowdfunded game pitch is a general idea or direction of a game that can change along the way.
RSI decided and the community backed that expanse in scope or else the community along with the funding wouldn't haven't continue to grow all these years right?
Nobody in their right mind would trade having fully traversable seamless planets for the oldschool design of in-rails auto traversing to a little hub location ala Freelancer and Privater and the only ones complaining about it certainly aren't interested in playing the game but more trying to find another excuse for the ridiculous "accountability" angle.
I suspect the reason Science and Exploration aren't as talked about as other professions and activities is because mechanically might be the easiest to implement (Scanning is already present in a simpler form) and to synergize with all the other professions so they're fleshing out the universe and creating cool stuff THEN let us explore and discover them.
I saw the segment you refer to and frankly, two sentences by the narrative director (as opposed to someone actually designing the exploration gameplay) is not exactly what one would expect when you have such a massive topic and your original promise to launch the game with 100 systems. Especially when this short update was actually about the guild system and a few examples of missions you could possibly get from them.
I am not sure you understand what people usually mean by exploration and want to have in the game. The mechanic as you describe in your post (i.e. 'go there and scan that') is the least of it and by that logic you could summarise the whole SC development by "well, it's easy to implement, you just need your space ships to fly and shoot".
The whole point of starting with 100 systems (and expanding from there) was to give about 1/3 of the SC community (based on early surveys) the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on.
Only a small fraction of those can be addressed by a handful of systems with much deeper customisation by CIG. And that's without considering the millions of backers SC now has. How are you going to give hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of eager explorers a meaningful exploration gameplay in a game with 5 star systems? That's like telling Columbus or Magalhães "if you want to explore, just explore Genoa and Lisbon, there's a lot to do in those two cities!".
And that's not even taking into account CIG's endless BS over the years about how whatever the next tech they are working on will allow them to design planets so much faster! (For real, this time - pinky swear!)
I think what would be helpful is to define what level of variance from the initial kick-starter is acceptable. That would be a personal choice.
If I promised a historically accurate pirate sim, and you backed it for thousands of dollars, and instead I deliver a goofy anime teen-boob game set in hell with avatars dressed as angels would you have cause to be "disgruntled"?
How about if I promised a game and instead blew all the money on yachts and vacations?
There has to be a limit to what a kick-starter can do - I wish some of the fanbois here could describe their personal limit (2030, 2035, 2040?) - because if they cannot, then they're not worth a listen. Likewise, it is possible for variance to not only be acceptable, but an improvement to the original vision. Gotta allow for that too.
I say all that to say: If you don't have a limit you can define, you're a clown; but also, if you're putting money into SC and you don't do your research, you're also a clown (at this point). What SC is pretty clear at this point - further complaining is of no value.
But that wasn’t what they sold. They sold us on 100 Star Systems. Not X points of interest.
If they kept to the OG pitch, what SC would be today would be what 2.X was, more of the same space only with space stations and few other locations per star system.
Thankfully they haven't sacrificed where game could go for the sake of achieving an artificial number, and I'd bet the vast majority of the backers agrees.
It seems proximity to CIG distorts the meaning of 'delivery'. I shouldn't be surprised
Like I said, the star system that's released right now is an overdelivery than what was originally pitched for this game as far what a star system is, and what it englobes.
You can keep beating this 12 year old dead horse until your fingers fall off, live on the past yelling at Cloud(s imperium games), while others stick with the present.
I suspect the reason Science and Exploration aren't as talked about as other professions and activities is because mechanically might be the easiest to implement (Scanning is already present in a simpler form) and to synergize with all the other professions so they're fleshing out the universe and creating cool stuff THEN let us explore and discover them.
I saw the segment you refer to and frankly, two sentences by the narrative director (as opposed to someone actually designing the exploration gameplay) is not exactly what one would expect when you have such a massive topic and your original promise to launch the game with 100 systems. Especially when this short update was actually about the guild system and a few examples of missions you could possibly get from them.
I am not sure you understand what people usually mean by exploration and want to have in the game. The mechanic as you describe in your post (i.e. 'go there and scan that') is the least of it and by that logic you could summarise the whole SC development by "well, it's easy to implement, you just need your space ships to fly and shoot".
The whole point of starting with 100 systems (and expanding from there) was to give about 1/3 of the SC community (based on early surveys) the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on.
Only a small fraction of those can be addressed by a handful of systems with much deeper customisation by CIG. And that's without considering the millions of backers SC now has. How are you going to give hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of eager explorers a meaningful exploration gameplay in a game with 5 star systems? That's like telling Columbus or Magalhães "if you want to explore, just explore Genoa and Lisbon, there's a lot to do in those two cities!".
And that's not even taking into account CIG's endless BS over the years about how whatever the next tech they are working on will allow them to design planets so much faster! (For real, this time - pinky swear!)
To me there's more exploration potential in 1 system with 3000 points of interest than in 100 systems with only 1 point of interest each.
"the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on."
I think with the way they developed all professions and synergy that and much more can be done within their game design.
For the explorers by quantity there's already games like No Man Sky or Elite Dangerous which as cool as they are they aren't compatible with Star Citizen online living breathing universe nature.
To me there's more exploration potential in 1 system with 3000 points of interest than in 100 systems with only 1 point of interest each.
I don't trust SC to deliver; however, I think that this falls well within a reasonable limit of acceptable variance for a KS pitch. For some that may not be the case, but this seems reasonable to me.
I don't trust SC to deliver; however, I think that this falls well within a reasonable limit of acceptable variance for a KS pitch. For some that may not be the case, but this seems reasonable to me.
Go ask if the actual backers are the ones mad it this.
The only reason this 100 systems dead horse is brought in places like this is for the 101 naysaying narrative against SC.
The vast majority of the backers is not bothered by this, because we already understood the obviuous, which was talked about by CIG years ago, that a star system is MUCH more today than what it was ever meant to be, especially since they moved to fully realize every single planet and moon in the game, something that was not meant to be a thing.
If the majority of backers are okay with the current plan of continuing to release star systems post 1.0... Then this discussion is nothing but noise.
I was oringally excited (back in the day) to explore new systems. I have a Constellation Aquila (with LTI) for that purpose. However now, I'm questioning that purchase. A Connie is probably hte biggest ship I'll ever want to buy as I'm mostly a solo gamer and a few friends suggested they were interested in being crew. But even if they're not around I can always have in-game crew. However the 1.0 review may have scuppered that dream.
With only five systems, what is the future of exploration? Will it even be a thing in 1.0? Have I wasted my money on something that won't be a thing for a long time? I'm not getting any younger and I'm now being close to 60 now! And I can't even go back to something like a Connie Taurus as thgat's cheaper than the Aquila. I don't want to go bigger, but I can't go smaller. Sad.
Do I have grounds to approach CIG (considering I feel the rug has been pulled out from underneath me) to put my case forward to downgrade my Connie? Or should I even try? Will exploration still be a thing?
(Just wait until this guy hears about the 'in-game crew' punt too . Which I suspect will cause greater ripples all told, it touches on more playstyles)
As BrotherMaynard points out, explo guys were a sizeable chunk of the early days backers, and were sold a pretty distinct form of gameplay, so it's hardly a surprise.
What would be a surprise would be if the average white knight were to respond with equanimity to their own favoured ($) feature getting the chop
The whole point of starting with 100 systems (and expanding from there) was to give about 1/3 of the SC community (based on early surveys) the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on.
How the hell, would there be exploration in 100 systems MMO fully played in space? What would you ever be discovering that other players wouldn't have quickly post-launch fully map out?! You'd be rushing day-1... for a short-lived novelty?
Oh the current design, Transient jump points are still a thing, they are not mapped by the game. Surveying planets for resources, yes, they are to be dynamic (base building stuff). Along other bits, those haven't gone anywhere.
And pointing out when they pitched these 100 systems in 2012, there to be no explorable planets... How is exploring actual planets and survey it for resources/POIs/wathever, worse?
As BrotherMaynard points out, explo guys were a sizeable chunk of the early days backers, and were sold a pretty distinct form of gameplay, so it's hardly a surprise.
You are talking about the same guy that's talking exploration in 100 systems talking exploring and mapping out planets:
"discovering new star systems,.. mapping new planets, surveying them for resources,"
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
As BrotherMaynard points out, explo guys were a sizeable chunk of the early days backers, and were sold a pretty distinct form of gameplay, so it's hardly a surprise.
You are talking about the same guy that's talking exploration in 100 systems to have pitched stuff like exploring and mapping out planets:
"discovering new star systems,.. mapping new planets, surveying them for resources,"
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
Man, you are so lost in your own fanaticism, it's not even funny. Go re-watch some of the earlier Wingman's Hangars or 10 for the Chairman, if your memory is so weak. Or perhaps you are too young to remember those? They both spun periodically scenarios about exploration gameplay and what they wanted it to focus on. Not to mention CR's letters (that were also published with each stretch goal) and posts in the old forum, when he still dared to pop in occasionally, enjoying the early hype and boundless admiration among the backers.
About 8-10 years ago, there was all the talk about having a mix of hand-designed systems and procedurally generated systems. Where did all that go, eh? It certainly did not stick in your memory... Nor CIG's, apparently.
Games like No Man's Sky have figured out how to land on procedurally generated planets ages ago, yet for some reason, CIG would not have been able to do that even with their earlier more limited design plans, right? And now all you have left are feeble deflections about pictures of planets in the sky, poor you.
From exploring space to a slight variation of a fetch quest in a local system in exchange for 10-or-whatever reputation points with the science guild, how awesome is that? Are you sure your MISC Odyssey will be able to manage that?
The lengths to which you are willing to go and twist reality in order to defend CIG and their broken commitments are pretty sad, to be honest...
Games like No Man's Sky have figured out how to land on procedurally generated planets ages ago, yet for some reason, CIG would not have been able to do that even with their earlier more limited design plans, right? And now all you have left are feeble deflections about pictures of planets in the sky, poor you.
From exploring space to a slight variation of a fetch quest in a local system in exchange for 10-or-whatever reputation points with the science guild, how awesome is that? Are you sure your MISC Odyssey will be able to manage that?
You didn't answer the question. Even if they did this, how would 100 systems "discovery" have been nothing else but a short-lived novelty for the players that started day-1, in an MMO game?
Because if exploration depended on a short-lived novelty, exploration players would have had nothing to do after the first ones rushed through new locations.
The reason they're not doing scale like NMS or ED is because they don't want to be a copy paste of ED or NMS, it's because SC has been for a long time moving towards becomea proper MMO, to have player density & MP driven PvE and PvP content which is doesn't really work out if you dillute the game through out a giant number of a star systems.
If discovery of planets, moons, systems... is the deal breaker for you, then it's been known for a long time already that SC is not going to be doing that. That doesn't mean there isn't exploration, it means it's adapted to the game SC is now, which still includes several of the things you mentioned and the added things that come from explorable planets.
But that wasn’t what they sold. They sold us on 100 Star Systems. Not X points of interest.
If they kept to the OG pitch, what SC would be today would be what 2.X was, more of the same space only with space stations and few other locations per star system.
Thankfully they haven't sacrificed where game could go for the sake of achieving an artificial number, and I'd bet the vast majority of the backers agrees.
I'm not going to argue what is better or worse as that is often just a subjective preference. My point was that you cannot say they "overdelivered" on 100 Star System by delivering 5 Star Systems with more POIs. They never promised a number of POIs. They promised 100 Star Systems. Maybe this is better, maybe its not.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
In terms of functionality their expectations are in the right kind of ball park though.
But OP has also referenced the early years of the project. And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but CIG do like to indulge in a spot of scope creep . IE:
Cloud Imperium Stretch Goal said: Advanced procedural generation will be necessary for creating entire planets worth of exploration and development content. A special strike team of procedural generation-oriented developers will be assembled to make this technology a reality.
We were definitely thinking [...] we would have some level of landing on some non populated planets and you could maybe do some looking if there was a ancient ruin there, or you could do some sort of scouting, or you know like check it out for minerals or something. And probably flora and fauna could be kind of a you know an additional part of that.
Etc etc.
And then as mentioned, they leveraged ship sales off the back of these visions...
This was all still under the aegis of 100 systems at launch etc. (Which, as you say, was only officially hedged downwards around 2017).
Citcon retcons do have a tendency to omit things
---
Anyway, marvellous as it's been to see the justifications for CIG's latest round of "No it's not ready, or working, but have you seen THIS??", I guess I'll leave you to it now.
Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
In terms of functionality their expectations are in the right kind of ball park though.
But OP has also referenced the early years of the project. And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but CIG do like to indulge in a spot of scope creep . IE:
Cloud Imperium Stretch Goal said: Advanced procedural generation will be necessary for creating entire planets worth of exploration and development content. A special strike team of procedural generation-oriented developers will be assembled to make this technology a reality.
We were definitely thinking [...] we would have some level of landing on some non populated planets and you could maybe do some looking if there was a ancient ruin there, or you could do some sort of scouting, or you know like check it out for minerals or something. And probably flora and fauna could be kind of a you know an additional part of that.
Etc etc.
And then as mentioned, they leveraged ship sales off the back of these visions...
This was all still under the aegis of 100 systems at launch etc. (Which, as you say, was only officially hedged downwards around 2017).
Citcon retcons do have a tendency to omit things
---
Anyway, marvellous as it's been to see the justifications for CIG's latest round of "No it's not ready, or working, but have you seen THIS??", I guess I'll leave you to it now.
Have fun!
Wow... someone brought the receipts...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
In terms of functionality their expectations are in the right kind of ball park though.
But OP has also referenced the early years of the project. And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but CIG do like to indulge in a spot of scope creep . IE:
Cloud Imperium Stretch Goal said: Advanced procedural generation will be necessary for creating entire planets worth of exploration and development content. A special strike team of procedural generation-oriented developers will be assembled to make this technology a reality.
We were definitely thinking [...] we would have some level of landing on some non populated planets and you could maybe do some looking if there was a ancient ruin there, or you could do some sort of scouting, or you know like check it out for minerals or something. And probably flora and fauna could be kind of a you know an additional part of that.
Etc etc.
And then as mentioned, they leveraged ship sales off the back of these visions...
This was all still under the aegis of 100 systems at launch etc. (Which, as you say, was only officially hedged downwards around 2017).
Citcon retcons do have a tendency to omit things
---
Anyway, marvellous as it's been to see the justifications for CIG's latest round of "No it's not ready, or working, but have you seen THIS??", I guess I'll leave you to it now.
Have fun!
Well, apparently you will now do all that in your backyard. Or 5 star systems - whatever you prefer to call it. And count yourself lucky CR does not alter the deal further.
But hey, the backyard has a nice wooden fence, all hand-crafted to perfection. You can admire its texture and once in a while the science guild will send you to the back of your garden to take a picture of a worm hole. Literally. Rejoice, explorers!
Anyway, marvellous as it's been to see the justifications for CIG's latest round of "No it's not ready, or working, but have you seen THIS??", I guess I'll leave you to it now.
All this work manipulating information just dodge the point:
When 100 star systems were pitched, in 2012, there was NO such thing as explorable planets as part of the game's scope.
That's all.
And how silly of me... Of course every gamer here knows that cinematic trailers are the representation of a game's looks and gameplay; of features that were still not confirmed at the time. Can't wait for the Opera singer included with the 890Jump!
Anything covered by actual Kickstarter aegis is open to creative reinterpretation. After that, you know, when they started paying taxes on things as sales, the promises count as donation money only in marketing, not in legality.
The '100 Systems' issue is just an obvious and useful thing to point to in regard to CIG's ability to deliver what they've promised. Because 100 systems can end up as deform-able bed-sheets. The feature creep is easily apparent. And inevitable.
Loved that Babs had to bring up the 'Fans voted for big world' bs. Asking a thousand or two of your biggest fans on your own website was like asking hungry dogs if they wanted some meat. The answer was a given, and not project-able to the rest of the fanbase. It was a rubber stamp.
When the Aliens come, the cyber-Roberts will try to sell them a picture of a spaceship. And he may succeed....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The '100 Systems' issue is just an obvious and useful thing to point to in regard to CIG's ability to deliver what they've promised. Because 100 systems can end up as deform-able bed-sheets. The feature creep is easily apparent. And inevitable.
If CIG didn't care about the game... they would focus on hitting the artificial number to call it mission acomplished.. They'd be copy/pasting the same template 100 times, and did some assets and content varions.
All this spamming about the 100 systems when this design shift is what enabled them to create higher quality locations, which Stanton itself is the evidence of.
Quality or Quantity.... The choice was made, and announced over 7 years ago, but here we are today beating dead horses...
Comments
There's a very large margin where the creator can do changes as needed. If RSI had decided that large systems are better than small systems and changed it from 100 small systems into 5 large systems instead that would be within their rights.
However RSI changed into large systems a decade ago. At this point it's not one decision where they'd have changed from a lot of small systems into a few big ones, but two decisions: First when they increased the system size. Second where they announced that they fail to deliver 95% of the planned systems.
Their failure to deliver this probably isn't significant enough to cause any legal consequences for people who just bought the base game since Star Citizen is still planning to be a big game with a lot of different stuff and exploring new star systems is just one part of that.
There's a good chance it's important enough failure that people who've bought a ship or package aimed for exploration could demand refund and/or take legal action.
it's a shame that YOU are here. I look forward to a world where you are absent
90 Days Top !
I saw the segment you refer to and frankly, two sentences by the narrative director (as opposed to someone actually designing the exploration gameplay) is not exactly what one would expect when you have such a massive topic and your original promise to launch the game with 100 systems. Especially when this short update was actually about the guild system and a few examples of missions you could possibly get from them.
I am not sure you understand what people usually mean by exploration and want to have in the game. The mechanic as you describe in your post (i.e. 'go there and scan that') is the least of it and by that logic you could summarise the whole SC development by "well, it's easy to implement, you just need your space ships to fly and shoot".
The whole point of starting with 100 systems (and expanding from there) was to give about 1/3 of the SC community (based on early surveys) the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on.
Only a small fraction of those can be addressed by a handful of systems with much deeper customisation by CIG. And that's without considering the millions of backers SC now has. How are you going to give hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of eager explorers a meaningful exploration gameplay in a game with 5 star systems? That's like telling Columbus or Magalhães "if you want to explore, just explore Genoa and Lisbon, there's a lot to do in those two cities!".
And that's not even taking into account CIG's endless BS over the years about how whatever the next tech they are working on will allow them to design planets so much faster! (For real, this time - pinky swear!)
Hey Mr Pot, I think I hear the Kettle calling.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If I promised a historically accurate pirate sim, and you backed it for thousands of dollars, and instead I deliver a goofy anime teen-boob game set in hell with avatars dressed as angels would you have cause to be "disgruntled"?
How about if I promised a game and instead blew all the money on yachts and vacations?
There has to be a limit to what a kick-starter can do - I wish some of the fanbois here could describe their personal limit (2030, 2035, 2040?) - because if they cannot, then they're not worth a listen. Likewise, it is possible for variance to not only be acceptable, but an improvement to the original vision. Gotta allow for that too.
I say all that to say: If you don't have a limit you can define, you're a clown; but also, if you're putting money into SC and you don't do your research, you're also a clown (at this point). What SC is pretty clear at this point - further complaining is of no value.
If they kept to the OG pitch, what SC would be today would be what 2.X was, more of the same space only with space stations and few other locations per star system.
Thankfully they haven't sacrificed where game could go for the sake of achieving an artificial number, and I'd bet the vast majority of the backers agrees.
Like I said, the star system that's released right now is an overdelivery than what was originally pitched for this game as far what a star system is, and what it englobes.
You can keep beating this 12 year old dead horse until your fingers fall off, live on the past yelling at Cloud(s imperium games), while others stick with the present.
"the space to explore, from discovering new star systems, charting new jump points, collecting data on safe navigation (in Carrack's case at one point there was even talk of stabilising jump points for smaller ships), mapping new planets, surveying them for resources, observing and tracking anomalies and events, figuring out safe passages, gathering intelligence on frontier systems (e.g. no-man's land close to the Vanduul space), the list goes on."
I think with the way they developed all professions and synergy that and much more can be done within their game design.
For the explorers by quantity there's already games like No Man Sky or Elite Dangerous which as cool as they are they aren't compatible with Star Citizen online living breathing universe nature.
Go ask if the actual backers are the ones mad it this.
The only reason this 100 systems dead horse is brought in places like this is for the 101 naysaying narrative against SC.
The vast majority of the backers is not bothered by this, because we already understood the obviuous, which was talked about by CIG years ago, that a star system is MUCH more today than what it was ever meant to be, especially since they moved to fully realize every single planet and moon in the game, something that was not meant to be a thing.
If the majority of backers are okay with the current plan of continuing to release star systems post 1.0... Then this discussion is nothing but noise.
Is that what kettle calling looks like?
I was oringally excited (back in the day) to explore new systems. I have a Constellation Aquila (with LTI) for that purpose. However now, I'm questioning that purchase. A Connie is probably hte biggest ship I'll ever want to buy as I'm mostly a solo gamer and a few friends suggested they were interested in being crew. But even if they're not around I can always have in-game crew. However the 1.0 review may have scuppered that dream.
With only five systems, what is the future of exploration? Will it even be a thing in 1.0? Have I wasted my money on something that won't be a thing for a long time? I'm not getting any younger and I'm now being close to 60 now! And I can't even go back to something like a Connie Taurus as thgat's cheaper than the Aquila. I don't want to go bigger, but I can't go smaller. Sad.
Do I have grounds to approach CIG (considering I feel the rug has been pulled out from underneath me) to put my case forward to downgrade my Connie? Or should I even try? Will exploration still be a thing?
As BrotherMaynard points out, explo guys were a sizeable chunk of the early days backers, and were sold a pretty distinct form of gameplay, so it's hardly a surprise.
What would be a surprise would be if the average white knight were to respond with equanimity to their own favoured ($) feature getting the chop
How the hell, would there be exploration in 100 systems MMO fully played in space? What would you ever be discovering that other players wouldn't have quickly post-launch fully map out?! You'd be rushing day-1... for a short-lived novelty?
Oh the current design, Transient jump points are still a thing, they are not mapped by the game. Surveying planets for resources, yes, they are to be dynamic (base building stuff). Along other bits, those haven't gone anywhere.
And pointing out when they pitched these 100 systems in 2012, there to be no explorable planets... How is exploring actual planets and survey it for resources/POIs/wathever, worse?
At the time of this stretch goal, in 2012, there was no such thing as explorable planets part of the game's scope. Exploring the picture of a planet in the sky?
Not to talk the obvious... How the hell would you be discovering one of a limited number of systems and planets in an MMO? Short-lived novelty much? lol
About 8-10 years ago, there was all the talk about having a mix of hand-designed systems and procedurally generated systems. Where did all that go, eh? It certainly did not stick in your memory... Nor CIG's, apparently.
Games like No Man's Sky have figured out how to land on procedurally generated planets ages ago, yet for some reason, CIG would not have been able to do that even with their earlier more limited design plans, right? And now all you have left are feeble deflections about pictures of planets in the sky, poor you.
From exploring space to a slight variation of a fetch quest in a local system in exchange for 10-or-whatever reputation points with the science guild, how awesome is that? Are you sure your MISC Odyssey will be able to manage that?
The lengths to which you are willing to go and twist reality in order to defend CIG and their broken commitments are pretty sad, to be honest...
You didn't answer the question. Even if they did this, how would 100 systems "discovery" have been nothing else but a short-lived novelty for the players that started day-1, in an MMO game?
Because if exploration depended on a short-lived novelty, exploration players would have had nothing to do after the first ones rushed through new locations.
The reason they're not doing scale like NMS or ED is because they don't want to be a copy paste of ED or NMS, it's because SC has been for a long time moving towards becomea proper MMO, to have player density & MP driven PvE and PvP content which is doesn't really work out if you dillute the game through out a giant number of a star systems.
We knew 7 years ago already they were doing a fraction of the 100 star systems, https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6nc6j6/gamestar_the_technique_behind_star_citizen/
If discovery of planets, moons, systems... is the deal breaker for you, then it's been known for a long time already that SC is not going to be doing that. That doesn't mean there isn't exploration, it means it's adapted to the game SC is now, which still includes several of the things you mentioned and the added things that come from explorable planets.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
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Sure initially it was all naming uncharted systems / planets, scanning & mapping asteroids for resources etc...
In terms of functionality their expectations are in the right kind of ball park though.
But OP has also referenced the early years of the project. And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but CIG do like to indulge in a spot of scope creep
04 2014:
06 2014:
09 2014: Etc etc.
And then as mentioned, they leveraged ship sales off the back of these visions...
This was all still under the aegis of 100 systems at launch etc. (Which, as you say, was only officially hedged downwards around 2017).
Citcon retcons do have a tendency to omit things
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Anyway, marvellous as it's been to see the justifications for CIG's latest round of "No it's not ready, or working, but have you seen THIS??", I guess I'll leave you to it now.
Have fun!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But hey, the backyard has a nice wooden fence, all hand-crafted to perfection. You can admire its texture and once in a while the science guild will send you to the back of your garden to take a picture of a worm hole. Literally. Rejoice, explorers!
All this work manipulating information just dodge the point:
When 100 star systems were pitched, in 2012, there was NO such thing as explorable planets as part of the game's scope.
That's all.
And how silly of me... Of course every gamer here knows that cinematic trailers are the representation of a game's looks and gameplay; of features that were still not confirmed at the time. Can't wait for the Opera singer included with the 890Jump!
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
All this spamming about the 100 systems when this design shift is what enabled them to create higher quality locations, which Stanton itself is the evidence of.
Quality or Quantity.... The choice was made, and announced over 7 years ago, but here we are today beating dead horses...