Opinion: Do MMOs really need to reinvent themselves? | MMORPG.com

System · November 25

Opinion: Do MMOs really need to reinvent themselves? | MMORPG.com

Online games straddle a fine line between players' insatiable desire for innovation and the coziness of well-known worlds. But does the genre really need to invent itself, or at least try to, with each release? Emilien explores this in his most recent editorial.

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Wargfoot · November 25

The bad ones do.

Neoyoshi · November 25

A wheel just needs to be a wheel and function like a wheel, and not have spikes and neon lights attached to it.

Wargfoot · November 25

Neoyoshi said:

A wheel just needs to be a wheel and function like a wheel, and not have spikes and neon lights attached to it.

Wheels need NFTs, for some reason.

Sovrath · November 25

um "sure?"

I know when I showed friends how I played Lineage 2 they thought it was ridiculous and dull. And objectively it was. Of course, that game was more about the social interaction, the politics, striving to better the character for pvp, etc.

While I initially liked the idea of quests for a mmorpg, I think at this point, they are mostly dull. I don't like the "led through a story" approach and I'm more interested in a fleshed out world.

I'd like the world to be growing and nations interacting and factions interacting. I want to go out into the world and find my own fun.

Of course, that's not what others like. So do they need to be reinvented? I think they need to tighten up their game play for specific groups of people. Some people want the quests, they want the bread crumb trail. Others want to just go and find their fortune. But they need to do it better.

Quizzical · November 25

A new game should try to do something interesting and not just try to be a clone of some other game. An existing, launched game should be very cautious about making major overhauls. The latter drives away the players you have without necessarily attracting new players to replace them. A new game that does not already have any players does not risk alienating its existing playerbase.

ShinyFlygon · November 25

Obviously, no, radical reinvention is not something to be undertaken by individual titles. It doesn't make any sense, for all the reasons mentioned in the article. (However, it's worth pointing out that even WoW isn't going to last forever. I have to assume that the number of new players it attracts is smaller and smaller each year, and as its loyal users literally grow old and die, it's not going to be able to replace them fast enough.)

The genre as a whole, on the other hand, is in the direst need of reinvention. It started out with a huge amount of potential, and so much of that fell by the wayside as all the developers began to jump on the free-to-play bandwagon. It's past time someone noticed that long-term profits come not from predatory microtransactions but from creating a product people enjoy and care about. As we close the chapter on the first quarter of the 21st century, that's going to mean new ideas and new technology geared toward novel and emergent gameplay rather than repetition and procedural content.

cameltosis · November 25

I don't think re-inventing yourself is a good idea for MMORPGs.

You can add stuff, update stuff, but you should always stick to your core values and goals. As soon as you start to stray, as soon as that core vision gets distorted, the end results tend to be pretty bad.

In my opinion, if you've reached a point where you feel the need to "re-invent", it's time to make a whole new game. A sequel, a spiritual successor, or whatever. Leave the old game (and its fans!) alone.

Sovrath · November 25

cameltosis said:

I don't think re-inventing yourself is a good idea for MMORPGs.

You can add stuff, update stuff, but you should always stick to your core values and goals. As soon as you start to stray, as soon as that core vision gets distorted, the end results tend to be pretty bad.

In my opinion, if you've reached a point where you feel the need to "re-invent", it's time to make a whole new game. A sequel, a spiritual successor, or whatever. Leave the old game (and its fans!) alone.

Well, what are the "core values" of a mmorpg? I would say playing with other people or at least having interaction with other people. However, that seems to have gone by the wayside.

I would say that mmorpgs have strayed from that a long time ago as people can literally log in and not deal with anyone else.

I'm not saying that people have to group but there needs to be a social interaction. Whether that's dealing with other people as merchant or crafter or gatherer or "whatever."

Slapshot1188 · November 25

I think the next real innovation will be a merging of technologies that increase immersion by an order of magnitude. AR/VR/AI/Graphics/Sound/controls

At some point, they will all come together for a giant leap forward.

Angrakhan · November 26

I think they need to reinvent each other. Like have EVE reinvent WoW or WoW reinvent Ultima Online. Spice things up!

KnightFalz · November 26

They don't but it happened regardless.

Neoyoshi · November 26

cameltosis said:

I don't think re-inventing yourself is a good idea for MMORPGs.

You can add stuff, update stuff, but you should always stick to your core values and goals. As soon as you start to stray, as soon as that core vision gets distorted, the end results tend to be pretty bad.

In my opinion, if you've reached a point where you feel the need to "re-invent", it's time to make a whole new game. A sequel, a spiritual successor, or whatever. Leave the old game (and its fans!) alone.

My feelings about it is this; i think we all pretty much know what works and what doesn't work, so why we cannot stick to what clearly and historically has shown to 'work' is a bit beyond me.

A new line of cars that people end up buying every year aren't bought because they are 're-invented' or does something 'new' - people buy them because they continue to do what has shown to work, but just better with each model of that line of car.

MMORPG's should function the same, just do what has shown to always work, but just do it 'BETTER' - it's not rocket science.

FrodoFragins · November 26

I never understood why WOW devs felt they had to drastically change classes in most expansions. I know that some people get bored with doing the same rotations, but that means the game keeps ending up with poorly balanced classes.

I'd rather they just add more choices each expansion to give players more build options while maintaining the old ones.

Scot · November 26

Well considering that over the course of MMO history these games have reinvented themselves, it is more a case of 'how many of the changes in the long run were healthy for the game'?

Also I am not sure "the ship of Theseus" intellectual exercise exactly applies here. The ides is not that the ships referred to started with a ship like a bireme and ended up with a galleon or a canoe. It is that they ended up with a bireme where every part had been replaced. Where as MMOs have evolved or devolved over time depending on your point of view, personally I think they have done both.

Where that thought exercise could apply is the concept of the identity of the "ship" in question, is the identity of WoW the same as it was all those years ago? Well clearly not, otherwise why is classic popular? Perhaps Mr Hazzikostas needs to rethink that one.

Lithuanian · November 26

Yes and no at the same time.

MMO needs to turn to player. To re-invent (if we play word game) many things. Amongst them:
1. Map. You know, an invention that has geography objects marked. To make things worse for MMOs, real world maps work. If town A is 58,5 kilometers from town B, that means distance to travel is mostly 58,5 kilometers.
MMOs tend to make different approach, like "on map 55 km, but you need to make 120 km right, then turn 380 km left, then walk 5 km underground, then make 2 km high the mountains, walk 1850 km straight, then turn 120 km left, then turn 380 km right, walk 5 km and here you are".

2. Direct lines. You know, ones like these " _____". MMOs seem to forget what these are. Yes, this should be standard path from point A to point B.

3. Realism. To achieve something, you need to kill only 20 Rabbit-dwarves. Sounds easy and cool. Except that in entire region only 1 such spawns and is on 8 hours cooldown. Or: you need to enter fortress. Problem is, there are no hints how to approach, no quest text about how to approach. Then, you must locate precise point at the map (1 centimeter left/righ is wrong), face something at precise ancle, then run at precise speed. So it's like "stand at [location with precision of 0,5 cm), face your head at Red rock, keep 38,719 degrees, then run at 61% speed and press "jump" 2,75 seconds after jump".

4. Emotions. Yes, almost all we are heroes, destined to save what is sacred to our faction from those ugly evils from another faction, save life as we know it etc. But this means we skip most NPCs. This NPC begs for help? ok, kill 15 rats, talk to NPC, move forward and forget NPC.
I think we need stories. NPCs we get attached to.Lotro made it with Nona and Horn. SWTOR somehow made it with companions (mostly).

5. Achievements. I think we need achievements. No, killing Saruman for 105th time does not count. Destroying same Death Star 28th time does not count. My positive example: Hytbold. You finish it one and only time. It took efforts to complete. Gosh, how was I proud to have "Thane of Hytbold" title!

6. Choices. Most MMOs are very simple: "Kill 10 rats. Choice: Kill 10 rats"; "Save lame prince. Choice: save lame prince". What if they had more choices, like "a) Kill 10 rats; b) lie to have killed 10 rats; c) buy corpses of 10 rats"? What if we could save prince or do not save? The only game that did choices great was SWTOR, in my knowledge.

So yes, MMOs need to rediscover some sort of Quality of Life. I know it's hard and nearly impossible...but let us be realists and demand impossible.

Antarious · November 26

Well speaking of WoW... it has certainly reinvented its self multiple times and when the player base said "no" and the Devs said "yes" they lost subscribers. The game makes more off a lower number of cash shop "whales" than it does from subscriptions now. If WoW had this level of player base the entire time it might have been better for the MMO industry as a whole. There used to be a lot of MMO's and they were very unique compared to each other. After WoW everyone was just trying to make a version of WoW and then there were no new MMO's at all.

Quite a few MMO's older than WoW still exist somehow... yet nobody is trying to make a new one. It's just multiplayer or what one can barely call MMO Lite. I mean I see games advertised as MMO's but they are nothing I would ever play and based on how well they do (sarcasm) I guess I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Sovrath · November 26

FrodoFragins said:

I never understood why WOW devs felt they had to drastically change classes in most expansions. I know that some people get bored with doing the same rotations, but that means the game keeps ending up with poorly balanced classes.

I'd rather they just add more choices each expansion to give players more build options while maintaining the old ones.

Well there’s part of the problem there”rotations.”

That should not be a thing but there are players who are think that’s the way to go.

Bored of “rotations?” I’d be bored after 15 minutes.

The player should be reacting and acting up on what is going on in front of them. Not following a set order of actions/skills.

Jakobmiller · November 26

Sovrath said:

um "sure?"

I know when I showed friends how I played Lineage 2 they thought it was ridiculous and dull. And objectively it was. Of course, that game was more about the social interaction, the politics, striving to better the character for pvp, etc.

While I initially liked the idea of quests for a mmorpg, I think at this point, they are mostly dull. I don't like the "led through a story" approach and I'm more interested in a fleshed out world.

I'd like the world to be growing and nations interacting and factions interacting. I want to go out into the world and find my own fun.

Of course, that's not what others like. So do they need to be reinvented? I think they need to tighten up their game play for specific groups of people. Some people want the quests, they want the bread crumb trail. Others want to just go and find their fortune. But they need to do it better.

I'm 100% with you on this one. I can see quests having a place when it comes to factions, standing and such. Much like EVE is doing it. You don't need to do the quests, but they are there as part of the sandbox. I also think that games should focus way more on character progression where you can specialize in the things you are interested in. I like how EVE does a lot of things, same as Darkfall Online back in the days. We just need a setting that is more pleasing to the mass or enough people to make it fly and doesn't require you to have do it as a job.

uriel_mafess · November 26

I would first ask Can they? Cause I would argue that current almost all big game development studios don't have the talent, drive and/or management capable of improving on anything that has come before.

samooryesord · November 26

I want MMOs to stop making it so end-game is where all the content is. Make it take months or even years to hit end-game. Make it a grueling adventure to even get a single level. I wanna immerse myself into a world I can live in, and not feel like i'm being pushed to end-game so I can grind the same content over and over to get gear that will be obsolete when they add new expansions. This is probably too ambitious for most developers to want to even attempt.. but I've seen some Isekai with better world building and mechanics than most MMO out right now.

cameltosis · November 26

Sovrath said:

cameltosis said:

I don't think re-inventing yourself is a good idea for MMORPGs.

You can add stuff, update stuff, but you should always stick to your core values and goals. As soon as you start to stray, as soon as that core vision gets distorted, the end results tend to be pretty bad.

In my opinion, if you've reached a point where you feel the need to "re-invent", it's time to make a whole new game. A sequel, a spiritual successor, or whatever. Leave the old game (and its fans!) alone.

Well, what are the "core values" of a mmorpg? I would say playing with other people or at least having interaction with other people. However, that seems to have gone by the wayside.

I would say that mmorpgs have strayed from that a long time ago as people can literally log in and not deal with anyone else.

I'm not saying that people have to group but there needs to be a social interaction. Whether that's dealing with other people as merchant or crafter or gatherer or "whatever."

Each MMO has it's own core values, it's own vision, im not talking about the genre as a whole.

Like, if you build an MMO that is story focused, then keep on adding story, refining the story telling process. That's fine. But if the game starts to lose players and decides to re-invent itself as a PvP focused in order to attract a new crowd, well, thats a problem. That's the sort of re-invention im talking about.

cameltosis · November 26

Neoyoshi said:

cameltosis said:

I don't think re-inventing yourself is a good idea for MMORPGs.

You can add stuff, update stuff, but you should always stick to your core values and goals. As soon as you start to stray, as soon as that core vision gets distorted, the end results tend to be pretty bad.

In my opinion, if you've reached a point where you feel the need to "re-invent", it's time to make a whole new game. A sequel, a spiritual successor, or whatever. Leave the old game (and its fans!) alone.

My feelings about it is this; i think we all pretty much know what works and what doesn't work, so why we cannot stick to what clearly and historically has shown to 'work' is a bit beyond me.

A new line of cars that people end up buying every year aren't bought because they are 're-invented' or does something 'new' - people buy them because they continue to do what has shown to work, but just better with each model of that line of car.

MMORPG's should function the same, just do what has shown to always work, but just do it 'BETTER' - it's not rocket science.

The problem with what you are talking about is the human capacity for pattern recognition.

We all continue to process and learn the patterns that we see around us, and the patterns in video games are no different. When we first start gaming, we're only capable of understanding the basics. That's fun, for a while, but once we've learned those basics, they become boring. So then we seek out harder games, with more complex patterns, and more depth.

This is why existing MMORPGs need to continually update themselves, not just in terms of adding new content, but in terms of updating mechanics. If our classes never changed, then we'd learn how to play them at launch and then get bored. How quickly you get bored is totally individual. It might be hours, it might be months, it may even be years. But it's human nature to get bored of things that don't change.

Re-invention though.......that implies a scale of change beyond simple iteration. With iterative changes, we're building upon previous patterns and taking the next step, and thats very good for players. Re-invention implies getting rid of the old patterns and replacing them with something entirely new. Thats generally bad for existing players, with no guarantee that they'll enjoy what comes next.

Quizzical · November 26

If you've played a game until you're sick of it, and then pick up another game that is very similar to the previous, then you're already 90% of the way to being sick of the "new" game the first time you log in. New games should do something new, not try to clone that which has already been done.

Sovrath · November 26

Quizzical said:

If you've played a game until you're sick of it, and then pick up another game that is very similar to the previous, then you're already 90% of the way to being sick of the "new" game the first time you log in. New games should do something new, not try to clone that which has already been done.

Maybe.

It all depends upon what the player is getting from the game.

If it’s mastering systems then sure.

I can say with certainty that I have been playing Skyrim and Morrowind quite a bit over the years. But I play them for the world and the new adventure mods that come out. That’s what keeps them fresh for me. Same game play is fine but I want the new experiences.

Scot · November 27

Sovrath said:

Quizzical said:

If you've played a game until you're sick of it, and then pick up another game that is very similar to the previous, then you're already 90% of the way to being sick of the "new" game the first time you log in. New games should do something new, not try to clone that which has already been done.

Maybe.

It all depends upon what the player is getting from the game.

If it’s mastering systems then sure.

I can say with certainty that I have been playing Skyrim and Morrowind quite a bit over the years. But I play them for the world and the new adventure mods that come out. That’s what keeps them fresh for me. Same game play is fine but I want the new experiences.

I am agreeing with both of you because if a game is really well done it does not matter if it is very similar to previous ones, but if it is not a solid game the sameness really drags you down.

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