Fast-Track to the Endgame: What Happened to the MMORPG Journey? | MMORPG.com

System · December 10

Fast-Track to the Endgame: What Happened to the MMORPG Journey? | MMORPG.com

The evolution of leveling has turned a core MMORPG experience into a routine chore. Emilien talks about how the leveling experience and turned from the journey into just a speedbump on your way to endgame in his latest.

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Wargfoot · December 10

This is absolutely true.

I had someone offering the developers advice over at Fractured Online, got into a bit of a tangle with her on Discord. The player wanted a guaranteed track of success for some rare drops to speed up the process and make it more predictable.

I explained the reason for the rarity, how the system allows for workarounds, and she became exasperated and said, "My goal is to defeat a game as quickly as possible and move onto the next game."

Unfortunately, too many developers listen to these tourists when building their games. I understand the appeal, the player buys the box, plays for two weeks, and is gone thereby incurring no further server hosting costs. It is a win for the developer if they don't mind folding in 12 months.

Don't listen to those players - ban them.

Find your long-term community and listen to them.
The people who bought your game because they want to exist in your world for years to come.

Greatsword · December 10

There are so many factors at play here... I think most of them have been excessively discussed already.

- The players from the late 90s/early 2000s are old now and no longer have the time to group up for 8 hours to see the XP bar move by 1cm

- there are more games to play, barely anyone is willing to invest huge amounts of time into a single game any more

- younger gamers have an instant gratification mindset and hate long-term progression (hence the rise of MOBAs, battle royales, seasonal throwaway progression and survival games and the demise of MMORPGs)

- the magic of playing a game online with strangers is gone. Everyone is online 16 hours a day now.

- many experienced gamers have seen it all and done it all and can no longer be arsed to do a long progression path for the 100th time

- same vein: our dopamine levels are fucked up, not just by gaming but by the absolute overabundance of constant stimuli of social media, podcasts, porn and whatever all constantly available on our phones (that only used to be able to send sms and play snake)

- the availability of guides to minmax everything (as opposed to using printed guides in monthly gaming magazines back then) has increased exponentially

And I could probably go on for 10 more minutes.

Pher0cious · December 10

it's time for mmorpg.com to evolve into justrpg.com

Angrakhan · December 10

I think a big thing people discount is the primacy effect when it comes to MMORPGs. You remember your first. It's because you've never been exposed to an active, persistent world with hundreds of other people at the same time. It's new, and exciting, like you took the red pill from The Matrix and are now aware of a whole new existence other people can't even fathom, or so it seems.

Well, no matter how good a subsequent MMO is, it will never be your first. Instead of being in awe of this new, exciting world you go immediately into comparison mode to see what is or isn't better than your first. There is no magic. You're immediately a critic. It's the same reason it's so hard for sequels to do better than the original when it comes to movies/books/coca cola products.

I think people disregard this effect and just assume the first game had some special 'magic' and they come up with all sorts of reasons why no other game can every hold a candle to it when the fact of the mater is, it was your first.

Sovrath · December 10

Wargfoot said:

This is absolutely true.

she became exasperated and said, "My goal is to defeat a game as quickly as possible and move onto the next game."

That’s sort of a sick mentality.

I’ll add that she doesn’t really want to defeat the game as is but wants the game to be designed so her time with it is as brief as possible.

Cogohi · December 10

I can only answer for myself. I will only play with randoms if I'm desperate or the content is low stakes. Otherwise I need to be with people I'm at least familiar with.

Leveling violates that. In pretty much every MMO I've played there's only a very narrow band (typ. 1 above or below, sometimes 2) where everybody can make meaningful progression. Unless you have friends that agree to level together you're stuck with randoms for anything that requires a group [directs the StinkEye™ at FF14]

I can be very focused when leveling and having to coordinate with others or slow my pace down can chafe pretty badly. And there's that one guy that's all over the map because they can't focus :bleh:

MMO leveling is a blip to get to the content that I want to play. Sometimes the stories are entertaining (FF14, SW:TOR) but more often than not, just not worth the bother. If what I wanted was a journey I'd much rather read a book, watch a movie or play a SP game.

Quizzical · December 10

Some years ago in Neverwinter, I had a minor dispute with another player about something or other. I don't recall what the dispute was about, but we were grouped together for a dungeon run. Finally, I asked him why he wanted to do this dungeon. His answer was to gear up. I said that I thought that was weird, as I wanted to do the dungeon for fun. Yes, I wanted gear, too, but having fun was the real goal.

Theocritus · December 11

"My goal is to defeat a game as quickly as possible and move onto the next game."

THis seems to be the mentality of the modern player.....You have apps like Mistplay that pay (well with gift cards anyway) players to achieve certain goals in a certain amount of time. It's kind of the way of the world now..hurry hurry hurry

Vercin · December 11

Everquest had the journey. Ultima Online had the journey. Wow initially had the journey.

goemoe · December 11

Greatsword said:

There are so many factors at play here... I think most of them have been excessively discussed already.

- The players from the late 90s/early 2000s are old now and no longer have the time to group up for 8 hours to see the XP bar move by 1cm

- there are more games to play, barely anyone is willing to invest huge amounts of time into a single game any more

- younger gamers have an instant gratification mindset and hate long-term progression (hence the rise of MOBAs, battle royales, seasonal throwaway progression and survival games and the demise of MMORPGs)

- the magic of playing a game online with strangers is gone. Everyone is online 16 hours a day now.

- many experienced gamers have seen it all and done it all and can no longer be arsed to do a long progression path for the 100th time

- same vein: our dopamine levels are fucked up, not just by gaming but by the absolute overabundance of constant stimuli of social media, podcasts, porn and whatever all constantly available on our phones (that only used to be able to send sms and play snake)

- the availability of guides to minmax everything (as opposed to using printed guides in monthly gaming magazines back then) has increased exponentially

And I could probably go on for 10 more minutes.

Just to have this text a second time. I am one of these players of the la90s/early 2000s and the OP of this is right. During those times we met to do 5% xp/h and had fun with it, we stood up at 3am to join a raid in DAoC and bought game magazines to get a bunch of tips for the game we liked. Those days are gone. Why? Look at the quote.

Dear devs, don't listen to minorities, listen to your target audience!

Nephistos · December 11

goemoe said:

Greatsword said:

There are so many factors at play here... I think most of them have been excessively discussed already.

- The players from the late 90s/early 2000s are old now and no longer have the time to group up for 8 hours to see the XP bar move by 1cm

- there are more games to play, barely anyone is willing to invest huge amounts of time into a single game any more

- younger gamers have an instant gratification mindset and hate long-term progression (hence the rise of MOBAs, battle royales, seasonal throwaway progression and survival games and the demise of MMORPGs)

- the magic of playing a game online with strangers is gone. Everyone is online 16 hours a day now.

- many experienced gamers have seen it all and done it all and can no longer be arsed to do a long progression path for the 100th time

- same vein: our dopamine levels are fucked up, not just by gaming but by the absolute overabundance of constant stimuli of social media, podcasts, porn and whatever all constantly available on our phones (that only used to be able to send sms and play snake)

- the availability of guides to minmax everything (as opposed to using printed guides in monthly gaming magazines back then) has increased exponentially

And I could probably go on for 10 more minutes.

Just to have this text a second time. I am one of these players of the la90s/early 2000s and the OP of this is right. During those times we met to do 5% xp/h and had fun with it, we stood up at 3am to join a raid in DAoC and bought game magazines to get a bunch of tips for the game we liked. Those days are gone. Why? Look at the quote.

Dear devs, don't listen to minorities, listen to your target audience!

I don't think that players who want to access endgame content quickly are the minority, quite the opposite in my opinion (which is why developers have evolved their games this way).

The fact that we have ‘soulless’ levelling is, in my opinion, purely historical (to suit the majority, the developers have simplified it at the expense of the purpose).

Even so, it's still a solution that doesn't really satisfy anyone. Personally, I'd argue for a complete overhaul, with a smoother flow and no abrupt transition between leveling and endgame. Albion Online is a good example of this.

I'd add that some games (admittedly they're a bit on the fringe) still offer longer and more satisfying leveling. Someone mentioned FF XIV and SWTOR, and I think TESO is very nice too. There's a lot to explore on your own, especially the lore.

cheyane · December 11

I have had a lot of fun with other players in groups but if I want to truly enjoy lore, story or a dungeon in detail then soloing is the only way. Reason is groups tend to rush through dungeons. I finally realised while playing with a mercenary in EQ2 when with a mercenary I was able to read, discover and look at every nook and cranny and find hidden and wonderful lore and objects the creators of these dungeons left around for us to find but a run with a group is never going to be where you experience it. That is inevitable because each person in a group has different goals and unless they align with yours you are not going to slow the dungeon run enough to bask in the dungeon lore.

Journey is best done alone or with people with like goals.

Scot · December 11

Cogohi said:

I can only answer for myself. I will only play with randoms if I'm desperate or the content is low stakes. Otherwise I need to be with people I'm at least familiar with.

Leveling violates that. In pretty much every MMO I've played there's only a very narrow band (typ. 1 above or below, sometimes 2) where everybody can make meaningful progression. Unless you have friends that agree to level together you're stuck with randoms for anything that requires a group [directs the StinkEye™ at FF14]

I can be very focused when leveling and having to coordinate with others or slow my pace down can chafe pretty badly. And there's that one guy that's all over the map because they can't focus :bleh:

MMO leveling is a blip to get to the content that I want to play. Sometimes the stories are entertaining (FF14, SW:TOR) but more often than not, just not worth the bother. If what I wanted was a journey I'd much rather read a book, watch a movie or play a SP game.

My first MMO that solved that was CoH with their "buddy" system. But I must admit I cannot remember how much XP different supers got when all levelled down/up to the same level. Perhaps someone knows if it was "meaningful progression" for all in the group.

cheyane · December 11

I recall in COH the higher ups would downscale to lower level groups to get rid of exp debt you incur when you die because at higher levels they take longer to clear.

cdubbz · December 11

As a long time MMO player I'll go ahead and throw my penny in the well; it's because leveling isn't fun it's monotonous. There are way more entertaining persistent online experiences I can go engage with and enjoy with other players and have a good time playing without realizing I have to bust my ass slowly going through what feels like a padded out experience. I understand that the leveling experience had it's place but nowadays it's starting to feel superfluous, and in some cases just feels bad.

Another thing, if the leveling experience is supposed to be there to prepare the player for the actual game, then it needs to be shorter than 40+ hours. Players aren't stupid, we can intuit things just fine provided the developers have done a good job designing their core systems. If they haven't, no amount of levels is going to fix that.

joshisanonymous · December 11

Cogohi said:

I can only answer for myself. I will only play with randoms if I'm desperate or the content is low stakes. Otherwise I need to be with people I'm at least familiar with.

Leveling violates that. In pretty much every MMO I've played there's only a very narrow band (typ. 1 above or below, sometimes 2) where everybody can make meaningful progression. Unless you have friends that agree to level together you're stuck with randoms for anything that requires a group [directs the StinkEye™ at FF14]

I can be very focused when leveling and having to coordinate with others or slow my pace down can chafe pretty badly. And there's that one guy that's all over the map because they can't focus :bleh:

MMO leveling is a blip to get to the content that I want to play. Sometimes the stories are entertaining (FF14, SW:TOR) but more often than not, just not worth the bother. If what I wanted was a journey I'd much rather read a book, watch a movie or play a SP game.

But what do you do at endgame in, say, FF14? Grind dungeons forever to get stronger gear? Is that not just another "leveling" journey? What makes that so much different from leveling proper? You mentioned the "narrow band" of possible groupmates, but that's really the same for endgame, too, right? Your friends aren't necessarily online at all the same times as you. Their gear might be too good or too bad for the content that your currently doing. It's the same restriction.

I don't think "leveling" per se has disappeared from MMOs, but it's now hidden in the endgame so that people can get the impression of instant gratification, by finishing leveling proper quickly, without the game instantly dying afterward since there needs to be something to keep people logging in long term for an MMO to work.

Personally, I find this annoying. In most cases, it turns MMOs into lobby games since it's easier to quickly add instanced content than to build the living breathing world that is generally the domain of traditional leveling, but that living breathing world is the part that I like the most (as someone who's been playing since the days of MUDs).

olepi · December 11

This is the main reason I don't play much MMORPG's anymore. People say "need an X for a speed run of Y". Speed run is what I *don't* want to do. People run the same dungeon 100 times to get the drops they want and seem to think that is "content".

It took me a year in DAOC to get my first level 50. In Ryzom, the max lvl is 250 with dozens of skills, no way to finish it. I still run pickup groups in CoH. My character is veteran lvl 192, meaning it is lvl 50 plus 192 more levels. I really enjoy helping lower level players and sometimes play a lower level dungeon at their level just for fun. I get no XP for it but that isn't the goal.

I still create lots of alts just to see how the game plays with a different set of skills. The journey is the game. Scenery is important, I read the texts, take time to explore.

MMORPG's were fun until WoW opened up the market to include the "Mortal Kombat Kiddies" (tm) who just want to rush through everything as fast as possible and trash talk the whole time.

Scot · December 11

cheyane said:

I recall in COH the higher ups would downscale to lower level groups to get rid of exp debt you incur when you die because at higher levels they take longer to clear.

I had even forgotten that, which might alone be a good enough reason to group.

Quizzical · December 11

Want to know how to make players care about the journey? Don't even have an endgame that is distinct from the journey.

Ryukan · December 11

IF the MMO is going to have a fast track to max level and endgame, it better have a good endgame to keep the players sticking around. I have played too many newer MMO's as of late where the trip to max level took less than a month and the endgame was just weak.

Nanfoodle · December 11

I personally like ESO level grind. All content is valid. You pick where ya wanna start. I just wish the game scaling kept going when you reach max and use more powerful gear. Reg content gets too easy. I prefer horizontal progression

Cogohi · December 11

joshisanonymous said:

But what do you do at endgame in, say, FF14? Grind dungeons forever to get stronger gear? Is that not just another "leveling" journey? What makes that so much different from leveling proper?

Raiding and hanging out with friends. When they're not around casual solo activities or low-stakes group content. If I get super bored (or when I used to drink) I'd dip into PvP. I'm not strictly an endgame player and am a story player at heart so I will also casually level through MSQ.

Funny you mention FF14. Part of why I burnt out on that game was that it does NOT respect my no forced grouping boundary to finish the MSQ. The cherry on that shit-sandwich is that to be able to participate in level-cap content finishing the MSQ is mandatory.

Contrast that with SW:TOR. There are one or two story gated boss-in-a-box raids that nobody does but all the others don't have that limitation. Heck one of my raid toons hasn't even finished the base story (1-50).

joshisanonymous said:

But what do you do at endgame in, say, FF14? Grind dungeons forever to get stronger gear? Is that not just another "leveling" journey? What makes that so much different from leveling proper? You mentioned the "narrow band" of possible groupmates, but that's really the same for endgame, too, right? Your friends aren't necessarily online at all the same times as you. Their gear might be too good or too bad for the content that your currently doing. It's the same restriction.

In a sense, yes. The difference being that the bands are much broader and in the case of FF14 and SW:TOR getting to a reasonable baseline ilvl is fairly trivial. Heck, in FF14 all you "need" is crafted gear to reasonably contribute to all but the most masochistic difficulty (Ultimate).

Cogohi · December 11

Nephistos said:

Even so, it's still a solution that doesn't really satisfy anyone. Personally, I'd argue for a complete overhaul, with a smoother flow and no abrupt transition between leveling and endgame. Albion Online is a good example of this.

I'd add that some games (admittedly they're a bit on the fringe) still offer longer and more satisfying leveling. Someone mentioned FF XIV and SWTOR, and I think TESO is very nice too. There's a lot to explore on your own, especially the lore.

One of the few things I liked about EVE Online was that the easiest hull classes to train were viable enough that you had a broad population of players to play with. I assume that Albion has something similar.

That said I'm not sure how well that would translate to traditional trinity PvE content. The best I could come up with is in a raid context up-level and up-skill everybody to level cap.

I don't buy into the "leveling trains you" trope especially if part of endgame gearing includes set bonuses that fundamentally modify your rotation. Yes, some people need to be spoon-fed mechanics but you don't need 40,60,80,100 levels for that to sink in.

StoneRoses · December 11

Wargfoot said:

This is absolutely true.

I had someone offering the developers advice over at Fractured Online, got into a bit of a tangle with her on Discord. The player wanted a guaranteed track of success for some rare drops to speed up the process and make it more predictable.

I explained the reason for the rarity, how the system allows for workarounds, and she became exasperated and said, "My goal is to defeat a game as quickly as possible and move onto the next game."

Unfortunately, too many developers listen to these tourists when building their games. I understand the appeal, the player buys the box, plays for two weeks, and is gone thereby incurring no further server hosting costs. It is a win for the developer if they don't mind folding in 12 months.

Don't listen to those players - ban them.

Find your long-term community and listen to them.

The people who bought your game because they want to exist in your world for years to come.

This is a perfect example of MMORPG games targeting the wrong player base.

ShinyFlygon · December 11

The first paragraph of this article is utterly inaccurate. Players have always rushed to the endgame in MMORPGs.

In the early days of UO, there were countless articles on how to max out your skills faster. The entire "camping" mentality in EQ arose because it was the most efficient way to level up. No one ever cared about "doing a dungeon" the traditional way. They only wanted XP and loot, the faster the better.

The only way to bring back the "journey" is to do away with vertical progression. Levels do not need to be a part of the journey. Just make quest rewards actually meaningful, and people will do quests. It's not rocket science.

Things players want and are willing to quest for: good-looking costume items, skills (implemented in a horizontal progression framework), titles, items for personal housing, mounts, etc.

Players will never care more about the journey than the reward, but at least developers could stop forcing everyone to pretend that the leveling-up journey is somehow sacred.

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