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Incompatible Design Goals

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Sovrath said:
    Angrakhan said:
    I like the procedurally generated hell concept!  That would be pretty cool (well or hot, actually). 

    The problem with any sort of bounty hunter/sheriff system is that it doesn't stop a ganker from having a friend or just multiboxing a good guy and bad guy account.  The bad guy goes and ganks, then the good guy kills the ganker getting the rewards and gear.  Good guy trades said gear back to the ganker, rinse and repeat.
    I think bounty hunters should be npc’s.
    I think some of them need to be.

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    edited December 11
    Harsh penalties for killing farmers or "ganking" none is going to work including permadeath options as explained.

    The gankers will just turn it on the PVE'er, by finding a way around the system as intended, like stepping in the PVE'ers AOE or standing on a mob so they are targeted...

    They will find a way.   By the time you fix all the loopholes you have a PVE game anyway so whats the point?

    Simple answer: Separate PVP and PVE servers, and separate PVE and PVP zones.  Solved.  People in PVP zones, its game on.  Thats how you solve this.

    PVE'ers will support the game, while the PVPers can gank eachother to death, or kill the people trying.
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,426
    Permadeath.

    The reason you have such a prevalence of random ganking in most open world games is because there is little penalty.  The attacker always has the advantage as they pick the time, place and target.   

    How about, if you instigate an attack and a player is killed, you have a Permadeath flag attached to your character for 15 minutes played time in game? You can tune this so it doesn't include waring guilds or something. But if you randomly gank a gatherer, you better run for your life for the next 15 (30?) minutes, and no logging off does not change the timer.  As a matter of fact if you logoff with this "buff" your character stays in game until it wears off.


    For a second I thought that was for the RL pranksters. :)
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Brainy said:
    Harsh penalties for killing farmers or "ganking" none is going to work including permadeath options as explained.

    The gankers will just turn it on the PVE'er, by finding a way around the system as intended, like stepping in the PVE'ers AOE or standing on a mob so they are targeted...

    They will find a way.   By the time you fix all the loopholes you have a PVE game anyway so whats the point?

    Simple answer: Separate PVP and PVE servers, and separate PVE and PVP zones.  Solved.  People in PVP zones, its game on.  Thats how you solve this.

    PVE'ers will support the game, while the PVPers can gank eachother to death, or kill the people trying.
    That wasn't the scenario.  It's about having them coexist in a FFA open world game.  I agree that I far prefer the DAoC method.

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war.  Now no system is perfect, but I think this is a fairly simple ruleset that should be pretty easy to implement.

    No flagging for PvP or Pve...but you murder someone and you can then be perma killed for a certain time.   I bet there wont be many that last long.
    SovrathKyleran

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Brainy said:
    Harsh penalties for killing farmers or "ganking" none is going to work including permadeath options as explained.

    The gankers will just turn it on the PVE'er, by finding a way around the system as intended, like stepping in the PVE'ers AOE or standing on a mob so they are targeted...

    They will find a way.   By the time you fix all the loopholes you have a PVE game anyway so whats the point?

    Simple answer: Separate PVP and PVE servers, and separate PVE and PVP zones.  Solved.  People in PVP zones, its game on.  Thats how you solve this.

    PVE'ers will support the game, while the PVPers can gank eachother to death, or kill the people trying.
    That wasn't the scenario.  It's about having them coexist in a FFA open world game.  I agree that I far prefer the DAoC method.

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war.  Now no system is perfect, but I think this is a fairly simple ruleset that should be pretty easy to implement.

    No flagging for PvP or Pve...but you murder someone and you can then be perma killed for a certain time.   I bet there wont be many that last long.
    It’s a great idea. This way people who are at war can attack others at will and there is a real consequence to just flat out killing a player.

    It would of course have to be long enough so that the killer feels threatened but not too long so they can’t feel like they can play the game.
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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war. 
    Cause you are not thinking like a griefer.

    Ok here are ways to turn your system upside down.

    1) Group of level 25's just minding their own business doing PVE.

    Griefer group of 50's sitting off to the edge out of site.  Send in a newbie 2nd account character level 5, into the middle of the PVE groups AOE circle.  Newbie dies, PVE group is now flagged for PERMADEATH.  Level 50's come and permadeath the entire group.

    2) Low level person runs over your trap.  Dies, now you are flagged for Permadeath.

    3) Low level person opens your trapped box, Dies, now you are flagged for permadeath.

    4) Any level person stands in your AOE CC.  Flags you, then kills themself off a cliff or mob.  Now you are flagged for permadeath.

    There are a million ways to do similar stuff like this.

    If the system is so onerous that nobody ever kills anyone, then why even have it at all?  So are you going to allow PVP or not.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Brainy said:

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war. 
    Cause you are not thinking like a griefer.

    Ok here are ways to turn your system upside down.

    1) Group of level 25's just minding their own business doing PVE.

    Griefer group of 50's sitting off to the edge out of site.  Send in a newbie 2nd account character level 5, into the middle of the PVE groups AOE circle.  Newbie dies, PVE group is now flagged for PERMADEATH.  Level 50's come and permadeath the entire group.

    2) Low level person runs over your trap.  Dies, now you are flagged for Permadeath.

    3) Low level person opens your trapped box, Dies, now you are flagged for permadeath.

    4) Any level person stands in your AOE CC.  Flags you, then kills themself off a cliff or mob.  Now you are flagged for permadeath.

    There are a million ways to do similar stuff like this.

    If the system is so onerous that nobody ever kills anyone, then why even have it at all?  So are you going to allow PVP or not.

    You're reasoning makes sense but you are making an assumption that the AOE will hurt the player. In Lineage 2 a player had to hold down CTRL in order to attack another player. So sending some level 5 in will do nothing.
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

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    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Brainy said:

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war. 
    Cause you are not thinking like a griefer.

    Ok here are ways to turn your system upside down.

    1) Group of level 25's just minding their own business doing PVE.

    Griefer group of 50's sitting off to the edge out of site.  Send in a newbie 2nd account character level 5, into the middle of the PVE groups AOE circle.  Newbie dies, PVE group is now flagged for PERMADEATH.  Level 50's come and permadeath the entire group.

    2) Low level person runs over your trap.  Dies, now you are flagged for Permadeath.

    3) Low level person opens your trapped box, Dies, now you are flagged for permadeath.

    4) Any level person stands in your AOE CC.  Flags you, then kills themself off a cliff or mob.  Now you are flagged for permadeath.

    There are a million ways to do similar stuff like this.

    If the system is so onerous that nobody ever kills anyone, then why even have it at all?  So are you going to allow PVP or not.
    No.  I promise you I think like a griefer.

    WHY would the AoE hit this level 5 person?  
    WHY would the trap hit a low level person?

    To engage another play would take an action.  Nobody mentioned friendly fire.  Thats usually a really niche system.  Its really pretty simple to make sure you cant accidentally attack a friendly player...  

    If thats the best you have... well.. then I guess we will move on.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Brainy said:

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war. 
    Cause you are not thinking like a griefer.

    Ok here are ways to turn your system upside down.

    1) Group of level 25's just minding their own business doing PVE.

    Griefer group of 50's sitting off to the edge out of site.  Send in a newbie 2nd account character level 5, into the middle of the PVE groups AOE circle.  Newbie dies, PVE group is now flagged for PERMADEATH.  Level 50's come and permadeath the entire group.

    2) Low level person runs over your trap.  Dies, now you are flagged for Permadeath.

    3) Low level person opens your trapped box, Dies, now you are flagged for permadeath.

    4) Any level person stands in your AOE CC.  Flags you, then kills themself off a cliff or mob.  Now you are flagged for permadeath.

    There are a million ways to do similar stuff like this.

    If the system is so onerous that nobody ever kills anyone, then why even have it at all?  So are you going to allow PVP or not.
    No.  I promise you I think like a griefer.

    WHY would the AoE hit this level 5 person?  
    WHY would the trap hit a low level person?

    To engage another play would take an action.  Nobody mentioned friendly fire.  Thats usually a really niche system.  Its really pretty simple to make sure you cant accidentally attack a friendly player...  

    If thats the best you have... well.. then I guess we will move on.

    I thought you said this was a pvp game?  So there is no AOE CC, AOE Debuffs or AOE attacks?  No traps or trapboxes.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Brainy said:
    Brainy said:

    That said, in my permadeath example, explain why it wouldn't work?  The permadeath flag only activates when you initiate and kill a person who is not similarly flagged or part of a guild war. 
    Cause you are not thinking like a griefer.

    Ok here are ways to turn your system upside down.

    1) Group of level 25's just minding their own business doing PVE.

    Griefer group of 50's sitting off to the edge out of site.  Send in a newbie 2nd account character level 5, into the middle of the PVE groups AOE circle.  Newbie dies, PVE group is now flagged for PERMADEATH.  Level 50's come and permadeath the entire group.

    2) Low level person runs over your trap.  Dies, now you are flagged for Permadeath.

    3) Low level person opens your trapped box, Dies, now you are flagged for permadeath.

    4) Any level person stands in your AOE CC.  Flags you, then kills themself off a cliff or mob.  Now you are flagged for permadeath.

    There are a million ways to do similar stuff like this.

    If the system is so onerous that nobody ever kills anyone, then why even have it at all?  So are you going to allow PVP or not.
    No.  I promise you I think like a griefer.

    WHY would the AoE hit this level 5 person?  
    WHY would the trap hit a low level person?

    To engage another play would take an action.  Nobody mentioned friendly fire.  Thats usually a really niche system.  Its really pretty simple to make sure you cant accidentally attack a friendly player...  

    If thats the best you have... well.. then I guess we will move on.

    I thought you said this was a pvp game?  So there is no AOE CC, AOE Debuffs or AOE attacks?  No traps or trapboxes.

    What he's saying is what I said, you need to make a deliberate attack. So it's a bit "gamefied" but AOE attacks wouldn't necessarily hurt another player unless it was deliberate "provided" they use a key or some such thing that allows one player to hurt another.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Sovrath said:

    What he's saying is what I said, you need to make a deliberate attack. So it's a bit "gamefied" but AOE attacks wouldn't necessarily hurt another player unless it was deliberate "provided" they use a key or some such thing that allows one player to hurt another.
    Yeah well that doesnt sound very user friendly.  So in a pvp game your aoe attacks are deliberate?  Doesnt make real sense.  So what you are really saying, is you have to click and toggle flags on individuals for every single target you see?  So there are 20 people fighting and you are toggling attack flag statuses on them?  How else will the game recognize a deliberate attack on an AOE target?

    Dont think PVPers are going to want to have flags like that.

    Castle siege you have 20 aoe healers under a roof healing people that nobody can attack because they didnt click off the status.

    You can have a full group of non flagged players just sitting there waiting to jump in, not being attacked because of a flag?

    Just seems super strange and unneeded.  When you are pvping, you want to kill whoever is near you, that isnt on your side.  That way they cant come and backstab you when you get low health.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    edited December 12
    You seem like you are going down a very long road to disagree.  The system proposed is actually very simple. Should be easy to understand and not too cumbersome to implement.

    I don’t think you even fully read what I posted because at least twice I said that if your guild was at war you were free to do anything you wanted.

    Everything else you posted is easy to fix with a few minutes thought.  Castle sieges for instance could simply become areas where all non allies are attack able. You could even simply have a toggle to turn off "safety mode" and instantly target everyone around you....

    I mean, I’m not sure anyone expected an entire design document in a paragraph or two…

    The system as described is NOT a gankfest game.  It’s literally supposed to avoid that and the whole point.  There won’t be roaming bands of 10 trying to jump a lone non enemy crafter….
    Yet at the same time afford people the ability to still do bad things.  They just have to pay the consequences.

    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:

    What he's saying is what I said, you need to make a deliberate attack. So it's a bit "gamefied" but AOE attacks wouldn't necessarily hurt another player unless it was deliberate "provided" they use a key or some such thing that allows one player to hurt another.
    Yeah well that doesnt sound very user friendly.  So in a pvp game your aoe attacks are deliberate?  Doesnt make real sense.  So what you are really saying, is you have to click and toggle flags on individuals for every single target you see?  So there are 20 people fighting and you are toggling attack flag statuses on them?  How else will the game recognize a deliberate attack on an AOE target?

    Dont think PVPers are going to want to have flags like that.

    Castle siege you have 20 aoe healers under a roof healing people that nobody can attack because they didnt click off the status.

    You can have a full group of non flagged players just sitting there waiting to jump in, not being attacked because of a flag?

    Just seems super strange and unneeded.  When you are pvping, you want to kill whoever is near you, that isnt on your side.  That way they cant come and backstab you when you get low health.
    No, in the Lineage 2 system you would hit CTRL (if memory serves) and just fire the aoe. It would hit all targets. You don't flag each player. I don’t think it hits anyone in your group or guild. I think, it’s been a while.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    You seem like you are going down a very long road to disagree.  The system proposed is actually very simple. Should be easy to understand and not too cumbersome to implement.

    I don’t think you even fully read what I posted because at least twice I said that if your guild was at war you were free to do anything you wanted.

    Everything else you posted is easy to fix with a few minutes thought.  Castle sieges for instance could simply become areas where all non allies are attack able. You could even simply have a toggle to turn off "safety mode" and instantly target everyone around you....

    I mean, I’m not sure anyone expected an entire design document in a paragraph or two…

    The system as described is NOT a gankfest game.  It’s literally supposed to avoid that and the whole point.  There won’t be roaming bands of 10 trying to jump a lone non enemy crafter….
    Yet at the same time afford people the ability to still do bad things.  They just have to pay the consequences.

    What your argument proves is that the idea is incomplete and far from simple. It brings us back to square one—a flawed system that tries to solve an unsolvable problem. There are countless loopholes, and just as you can't list every possible workaround, I can't outline every single way this system will fail in just one paragraph.

    What I can do, however, is point out several glaring flaws in the concept. Every feature added to patch these issues will inevitably be countered, further proving the system's inherent unworkability.

    The solution is straightforward: don't allow PvE players to be killed by PvP players in the first place. Separate these groups from the start. Problem solved, simple as that.

    On the flip side, those who prefer PvP should be allowed to fight others freely in PvP-enabled servers or zones. Again, problem solved.

    This separation between PvE and PvP has already been implemented successfully in other games, with the majority of players agreeing that it works well. There's no need to overcomplicate something that is already effective.

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Sovrath said:
    Brainy said:
    Sovrath said:

    What he's saying is what I said, you need to make a deliberate attack. So it's a bit "gamefied" but AOE attacks wouldn't necessarily hurt another player unless it was deliberate "provided" they use a key or some such thing that allows one player to hurt another.
    Yeah well that doesnt sound very user friendly.  So in a pvp game your aoe attacks are deliberate?  Doesnt make real sense.  So what you are really saying, is you have to click and toggle flags on individuals for every single target you see?  So there are 20 people fighting and you are toggling attack flag statuses on them?  How else will the game recognize a deliberate attack on an AOE target?

    Dont think PVPers are going to want to have flags like that.

    Castle siege you have 20 aoe healers under a roof healing people that nobody can attack because they didnt click off the status.

    You can have a full group of non flagged players just sitting there waiting to jump in, not being attacked because of a flag?

    Just seems super strange and unneeded.  When you are pvping, you want to kill whoever is near you, that isnt on your side.  That way they cant come and backstab you when you get low health.
    No, in the Lineage 2 system you would hit CTRL (if memory serves) and just fire the aoe. It would hit all targets. You don't flag each player. I don’t think it hits anyone in your group or guild. I think, it’s been a while.
    Yeah so as I said your lineage system would not work as I already pointed out.  If a group was doing AOE's, then anyone could jump in the AOE circle and flag the group.  Thanks for proving my point.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Brainy said:
    You seem like you are going down a very long road to disagree.  The system proposed is actually very simple. Should be easy to understand and not too cumbersome to implement.

    I don’t think you even fully read what I posted because at least twice I said that if your guild was at war you were free to do anything you wanted.

    Everything else you posted is easy to fix with a few minutes thought.  Castle sieges for instance could simply become areas where all non allies are attack able. You could even simply have a toggle to turn off "safety mode" and instantly target everyone around you....

    I mean, I’m not sure anyone expected an entire design document in a paragraph or two…

    The system as described is NOT a gankfest game.  It’s literally supposed to avoid that and the whole point.  There won’t be roaming bands of 10 trying to jump a lone non enemy crafter….
    Yet at the same time afford people the ability to still do bad things.  They just have to pay the consequences.

    What your argument proves is that the idea is incomplete and far from simple. It brings us back to square one—a flawed system that tries to solve an unsolvable problem. There are countless loopholes, and just as you can't list every possible workaround, I can't outline every single way this system will fail in just one paragraph.



    Far from it my friend.  ;)

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

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