Originally posted by joereed1 People keep branding WOW is for carebears and i can see why because there is no looting. But if you play on a PvP server you can be ganked by anyone in a contested area, whatever the level difference, and there's no consequence for the ganker, and sod all you can do if you're the one being ganked. If looting was included, wouldn't that make it the perfect game for all you PKer's?!!
Originally posted by War_Dancer No his attitude isn't any better but two wrongs don't make a right and the type of post you did is one that commonly comes up from PvPers without even being retaliation so I used it as an example for the OP.
i'm not sure what you typed here.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by War_Dancer No his attitude isn't any better but two wrongs don't make a right and the type of post you did is one that commonly comes up from PvPers without even being retaliation so I used it as an example for the OP.
i'm not sure what you typed here.
So I need to learn to type as well as read?
I grabed what you typed as a general example of a very common attitude from PvPers. It wasn't meant as a direct respone to you.
Originally posted by swordsbane One last thing about fps. Combat should be fps. Click and wait combat is a holdover from the single player, turn-based computer rpgs. It does not make sense in a real-time multi-player game. Sure some people will find their fps skills aren't up to snuff, and I feel sorry for them, but no one tries to cripple Halo because some people who want to play are no good at fps games. Let's be reasonable. A mmorpg should have plenty to do in it besides fighting, but combat should require some player skill. If you're going to partake of it, you should have that skill or practice to get it. Otherwise, it's not action. It's just something you can do while you're getting a cup of coffee. That's not to say that your character skill or items shouldn't matter. It should, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor. Being the best swordsman in the game should be a matter of being able to win a battle, with any sword, against any opponent, not stack your buffs just right or have the best uber-weapon in the game. In any fps game, everyone likes to have a weapon that can take down walls and destroy dozens of bad guys at once, but what ultimately matters is how well you use the weapon, not how good the weapon is. Less emphasis on uber weapons and game buffs would solve a lot of problems we've had in previous games, and look.. I'm sorry if fighting in a mmorpg means you have to have fps talent, but if that was unfair, then there shouldn't be any twitch games out there, because then they're all unfair.
I read your post and agreed with so much of it I just had to point out the one thing: If combat should be more FPS style (or all FPS) is primarily a question of what kind of game you want.
I would probably prefer something closer to current mechanics, but with significant ability to affect the outcome of a battle. Fleeing bad battles, picking the right fights, knowing what you're up against, equipping and training for versatility... Player involvement - which I want - can be more than FPS style.
And it is in no way pointless to have a character doing the fighting when you're not quick enough yourself. How is it worse than having him mining gold when you've never held a pick-axe in your life, and wouldn't know how to use one? A game is primarily entertainment - and that doesn't rule out FPS style combat; and entertainment can work on several levels.
Authors sitting down with pen in hand wrote epic tales and described great deeds. They did not accomplish this with quick reflexes, and yet the stories are worth reading. The gaming experience of epic deeds can be rewarding in the same way, with or without FPS.
On the real topic, I agree with most of the PvPeople here, at least generally. I don't view myself as PvP, but as roleplayer. Combat is entertaining, but if combat is everything then the game is just another boring plaything. I can suspend disbelief, but don't want to make an active effort in that direction. Current games tend to force that effort.
I can never decide what feels worst about these games. In some games it is the way quests are lined out like a tour; enter at level 1, leave at level 2, go on to face the angry orc in Dolbin's cave. I could accept it in well written single player games where the story made sense and needed the mechanism, but it is exactly the kind of thing I sought to escape by going online.
The combat model of today is mostly horrible across the line. There are exceptions.
Taking away death consequences, more than anything, ruins the immersiveness of the game. (Or maybe the prefabricated quest tours are worse afterall)
It goes something like this:
Player A wants to kill player B, and knows that player B might get annoyed, but all he can do is come back ten seconds later to return kill. Naaastyyy....
Player B returns to kill player A.
Infinite loop
I'd rather play a game without PvP entirely than that.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Originally posted by joereed1 People keep branding WOW is for carebears and i can see why because there is no looting. But if you play on a PvP server you can be ganked by anyone in a contested area, whatever the level difference, and there's no consequence for the ganker, and sod all you can do if you're the one being ganked. If looting was included, wouldn't that make it the perfect game for all you PKer's?!!
what is a carebear?
in wow, pvp has NO consequences whatsoever. oh wait, one poster did remark that if you die, then "you lose valuable time". yeah, whatever. so you have to run back to your body.
that's not pvp. part of the thrill IN pvp is that you CAN lose some or all of your stuff. the GOOD pvpers can, and do, lose their stuff on a regular basis.
in old uo, if someone was wearing bone armor, odds are, he's a pvper. pk, anti pk, whatever. why? cuz bone was real cheap and was almost equal to plate in the defense it gives. why didn't he just wear the sweet plate off the guys he killed? um because he probably did yesterday and after dying half a dozen times (well after the first death), he didn't have it any longer.
a common carebear notion is that if there's pvp then it's non stop ganking, it's always 30 versus 1. well, i remember one pk guild on great lakes. about 6 other guilds decided they'd "show us" and every night it was 30 versus 10 (when we actually had 10 on at once) and we'd eventually lose, but we'd take a few down with us.
another common carebear notion is that they love their items. oh, i spent 5,000,000 hours in this instance to get these purples, i'm god now. yeah, that's nice, so go pvp where you can't lose anything (other than the 45 seconds it took you to run back to your body).
so even if you were in a guild where it'd be 10 or 20 folks jumping on a handful -- people weren't sissy little carebears. they'd either organize their guild or get several guilds together to fight the bandit scourge.
you'd actually get an adrenalin rush from playing an online game. ya know, like when you're boxing, or sky diving, or heck maybe even scubaing in a new location for the first time.
can't say the carebear games (either in their pve or their pvp) have ever given me any sort of a rush. "oh noes i might die and lose valuable time getting back to help kill the bad guy~!!!" yeah um no.
the pks/pvpers back then, were normally the poorest folks in the game. did it matter? not really, cuz if you were a bandit or a pirate, well, that's what you were. you didn't want "honest work", like hunting dragons or mining and smithing (although you probably did both) -- you wanted blood.
if you've never experienced pvp on a true pvp game, then you, quite honestly, have no opinion on this topic. all you can do is "guess" at what it'd be like. so before you make your comments about what real pvp is/isn't; qualify it with "i played precarebear uo for a couple of years" or "imma hardc0re pvper in wowzers"; just so people know what kind of pvp you've had.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
only if you want to communicate with others on a forum.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
Originally posted by Kormac I read your post and agreed with so much of it I just had to point out the one thing: If combat should be more FPS style (or all FPS) is primarily a question of what kind of game you want. I would probably prefer something closer to current mechanics, but with significant ability to affect the outcome of a battle. Fleeing bad battles, picking the right fights, knowing what you're up against, equipping and training for versatility... Player involvement - which I want - can be more than FPS style. And it is in no way pointless to have a character doing the fighting when you're not quick enough yourself. How is it worse than having him mining gold when you've never held a pick-axe in your life, and wouldn't know how to use one? A game is primarily entertainment - and that doesn't rule out FPS style combat; and entertainment can work on several levels. Authors sitting down with pen in hand wrote epic tales and described great deeds. They did not accomplish this with quick reflexes, and yet the stories are worth reading. The gaming experience of epic deeds can be rewarding in the same way, with or without FPS. On the real topic, I agree with most of the PvPeople here, at least generally. I don't view myself as PvP, but as roleplayer. Combat is entertaining, but if combat is everything then the game is just another boring plaything. I can suspend disbelief, but don't want to make an active effort in that direction. Current games tend to force that effort. I can never decide what feels worst about these games. In some games it is the way quests are lined out like a tour; enter at level 1, leave at level 2, go on to face the angry orc in Dolbin's cave. I could accept it in well written single player games where the story made sense and needed the mechanism, but it is exactly the kind of thing I sought to escape by going online. The combat model of today is mostly horrible across the line. There are exceptions. Taking away death consequences, more than anything, ruins the immersiveness of the game. (Or maybe the prefabricated quest tours are worse afterall) It goes something like this:
Player A wants to kill player B, and knows that player B might get annoyed, but all he can do is come back ten seconds later to return kill. Naaastyyy.... Player B returns to kill player A. Infinite loop I'd rather play a game without PvP entirely than that.
Combat is different than mining or other non-combat skills. It is what we used to call an 'opposed skill' It requires two people (or a PC and NPC) Combat should be fast-paced, it should take advantage of fast reflexes and penalize slow reflexes. It should require you to be there. As you say, the combat model is awful across the board. The dependence on characters and items is sickening. Get the right skill combinations and the right buffs and the right weapons and you are pretty much unbeatable. Tactics, player creativity and your own reaction time, and a little luck from time to time should be the majority of combat. FPS games understand this. Your character should support what YOU do in the game, not vice verse. Combat shouldn't be entirely fps, but have you seen some games out there? You literally can stick yourself next to a monster spawn and go do something else. Your character will return attacks and sometimes even follow the monster when/if it runs. Come on. If you're in combat, you should be forced to pay attention, and you should be forced to do stuff. If you don't want to have to pay attention in combat, then don't do it. If you can learn to do that stuff better than other players, then you should be able to defeat those other players more often than they defeat you.
This is why PvP sucks in most games too. People are so concerned with what their character is carrying that they get dissolusioned to the point of quitting the game if it gets stolen by someone who was simply bored and wanted something interesting to do.
Having said that, the consequences to players who kill other players indiscriminately is never high enough to deter. Either players want no PvP or they want to be able to kill indiscriminately and feel insulted when you propose some restrictions. So what you end up with is developers either opening the games up completely to the psychos and lunatics so that anyone who says anything bad about PvP is labelled a carebear, or they section the PvP so strictly that it has the air of a jousting tournament or a boxing match, and nothing interesting ever happens.
All of this means that there should be lots of other things to do in a mmorpg besides fight. This allows more people to participate, it allows a greater scope for wars and large-scale conflicts. It keeps people from getting so bored that they turn to griefing just for something interesting to do. In large scale conflicts, NPCs should be more than IQ:2 robots that defend your buildings. You should be able to command them like an army for both offense and defense. I've seen battles won and lost because one side or the other couldn't get enough people to log on at the right time. Having a bunch of players for a big battle should be a benefit, not a requirement. There is such a gap between what players can do and what NPCs can do that no one wants to use them for anything important. AI isn't given nearly enough attention. There should be something of an RTS game in every guild war.
There is plenty of room for improvement in mmogs. Processing power has more than doubled since I started playing them, and internet connections are getting better all the time, yet people are still making a game that's only a little better than the last one, and players flock to it like a man dying of thirst in the desert. It's time to raise our standards.
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have no idea why you quoted me and asked what game I was playing damian7, your comments seem to be completely unrelated to my comments. I was responding to a complaint that there were no crafters "OR NON PVP PLAYERS" around. Why you think that your 100 or so PVP players and what they did has anything to do with non-pvp players playing games that don't have forced PVP today? Do you think I need to find 100 people who don't like PVP and so don't play games that require it?
Originally posted by SpiritofGame A wonderfully informative, semi-literate post that illuminates why the anti-social griefer-ganker players of the old UO days should, as penance, wander in the outer darkness forever seeking and never finding another MMORPG which they can destroy with their abusive game-playing.
Sounds like somone tried to PvP, was found wanting and is now airing their sour grapes.
Originally posted by Pantastic I have no idea why you quoted me and asked what game I was playing damian7, your comments seem to be completely unrelated to my comments. I was responding to a complaint that there were no crafters "OR NON PVP PLAYERS" around. Why you think that your 100 or so PVP players and what they did has anything to do with non-pvp players playing games that don't have forced PVP today? Do you think I need to find 100 people who don't like PVP and so don't play games that require it?
l2r
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players (maybe pure crafters?) and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one (a pvp game i'm assuming is meant here) there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
ok, the red is what i read and kinda replied to, blue is just my remarks.
you said something about a pvp game and they don't have crafters and non pvp players, cuz it's not fun for people (who've never played a pvp game) to get pvp'd. that makes no sense, but whatever.
didn't i talk about pvp players getting bored and wanting to craft? part of the other guy's comment WAS that the pvp games didn't have "much" crafting. didn't i talk about crafting and pvpers?
l2r, seriously. i can type stuff like "the sun is made of cow poo" all day, does it make it true?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
yes, YOU, what pvp games have you played? what's your pvp experience?
i can talk all day long about knitting a quilt. i've never knitted one and have no idea how to knit. therefore, should anyone pay ANY attention to my ramblings about knitting a quilt?
same LOGICAL thinking goes with raiding, pvping, crafting, et cetera.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
You're missing the point. What if you want to be a miner and NOT fight? You should be able to stay in town if you want to be a merchant. You should be relatively safe in town not because of some arbitrary "safe zone" but because anyone who messes with the townsfolk will be squashed by the guards. It should be possible, but VERY difficult to mount an operation to take over the town, and it would be to your advantage to actually try not to harm the merchants, otherwise, you'd have to bring in your own when they got pissed off and left.
But hey, if you're a miner, you have to leave the town to practice your trade, right? Why can't you hire protection? If there was a sensible economy in place, players could hire NPCs (or other players) as guards, and NPCs that actually can defeat other players.
The problem with hiring PCs to do this is that if they do their job right (ie their mission is successful) they might not get much in loot. If they're good enough to deter the attack completely, they'll be bored, so NPCs will probably have to do the work.
And speaking of NPCS. Commonly used roads should be protected. Any facility where money is commonly exchanged should be defended. Places where players gather should be protected. The approaches to places where players commonly gather should be protected, again, not by a safe zone, but by NPCs dangerous enough that nothing but an army of players stands a hope of defeating. Towns should send out patrols who are looking for those on the wanted list or for those who have a burning desire to get on the wanted list.
There should be no MOB farms that tell everyone where the best ones are and camp there, either to get the best kills (and treasures) or to mug those who are there to get the best kills (or treasure) Let the monsters roam anywhere where the players are able to go (and let their spawn points roam too). Keep everyone guessing where that big dragon that's been occasionally sighted is going to strike next. The world should be a dynamic place. The boring places should attract the monsters (because no one is there anymore) and the hot spots should die out from over-fishing. Quests should be events that affect the entire game world, not just instanced TV dinners (save the princess after tea). If the game is good enough, quests take care of themselves, will be completely player driven and much more interesting than anything the devs can hope to come up with. I've seen it. It CAN happen.
Originally posted by swordsbane Originally posted by damian7
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
You're missing the point. What if you want to be a miner and NOT fight? You should be able to stay in town if you want to be a merchant. You should be relatively safe in town not because of some arbitrary "safe zone" but because anyone who messes with the townsfolk will be squashed by the guards. It should be possible, but VERY difficult to mount an operation to take over the town, and it would be to your advantage to actually try not to harm the merchants, otherwise, you'd have to bring in your own when they got pissed off and left.
But hey, if you're a miner, you have to leave the town to practice your trade, right? Why can't you hire protection? If there was a sensible economy in place, players could hire NPCs (or other players) as guards, and NPCs that actually can defeat other players.
The problem with hiring PCs to do this is that if they do their job right (ie their mission is successful) they might not get much in loot. If they're good enough to deter the attack completely, they'll be bored, so NPCs will probably have to do the work.
And speaking of NPCS. Commonly used roads should be protected. Any facility where money is commonly exchanged should be defended. Places where players gather should be protected. The approaches to places where players commonly gather should be protected, again, not by a safe zone, but by NPCs dangerous enough that nothing but an army of players stands a hope of defeating. Towns should send out patrols who are looking for those on the wanted list or for those who have a burning desire to get on the wanted list.
There should be no MOB farms that tell everyone where the best ones are and camp there, either to get the best kills (and treasures) or to mug those who are there to get the best kills (or treasure) Let the monsters roam anywhere where the players are able to go (and let their spawn points roam too). Keep everyone guessing where that big dragon that's been occasionally sighted is going to strike next. The world should be a dynamic place. The boring places should attract the monsters (because no one is there anymore) and the hot spots should die out from over-fishing. Quests should be events that affect the entire game world, not just instanced TV dinners (save the princess after tea). If the game is good enough, quests take care of themselves, will be completely player driven and much more interesting than anything the devs can hope to come up with. I've seen it. It CAN happen.
i'll ask you the same question. what games have you played and what's your gaming experience, so that i know and understand what type of player is making these comments.
if you've never made a quilt, then your opinion on quilt making = nothing.
i remember Narc would be mining and i'd get a message "hey, PKs at my XYZ mining spot, can you grab a couple of folks and help me kick their booties?"
i seem to remember raiders talking a LOT about community and lots of people talking about "oh, it's an MMO, play single player if you don't want to interact with others".
i'm not an advocate of large guilds. but small guilds can, and have, banded together to take out menaces before. treat pk'ers as you would any other menace. lots of areas where you mine (just for example, herbs, lumber all these things can be substituted in lieu of mining) have hostile npc critters that you might have to kill if they see you. why think of pks as anything different?
just a few friends can do most anything in a game, in a good game.
as for your comments starting with "as for npcs", i pretty much agree. mining spots should be depleted and you have to find new ones. after X amount of time, the mining spots get goodies again, but it's completely random, no marking *here's the good ores*.
i agree with npcs (monsters, evil humanoids, good humanoid, whatever) should wander or be located a tad more logically.
how hard is it to make that orc camp to where if it's attacked for say 3 days in a row, they pick up and move? make it where after X number of fights/deaths/whatever, the whole encounter relocates to another position.
i don't think npcs should protect commonly used roads. if there's trouble in an area, then either npcs (or players if it's player controlled cities) set a bounty for whatever is jacking folks in the area. then players have incentive to protect the roads. especially if the mobs ONLY attack things on the roads and you can't really find them until they attack (or seconds before they attack). maybe one drops a map or clue that leads to their home. then we have the whole *after so many deaths, we relocate the main base elsewhere* thing.
i dislike the idea of uber npc guards for towns or anything else for that matter. why? why are they guarding a town and not killing the dragons? if i'm a HERO and i'm slaying dragons as my line of work, why in the world can some lowly town guard kill me in three hits? maybe a mob of town guards. maybe for every 5 town guards they kick up the overall power level of the guards in the mob a notch. i can see my hero being overwhelmed by like 1-2 dozen guards if i just stand in one spot saying "bring it on!" but that 5 copper a week guard shouldn't stand a chance against someone who kills demons and dragons for fun.
edited to add:
i understand what you're saying about a merchant. pre-cu swg had this sort of thing. you COULD buy raw mats off auction houses and make your wares and sell them at the ah or at your own vendor. it's a hostile world out there, if you're unsure of an area, bring friends. some people had crafting only toons and i don't remember that many being successful solo. they'd normally join a city and then be the supplier for folks there (who would also use land plots to harvest for the merchants).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 i'll ask you the same question. what games have you played and what's your gaming experience, so that i know and understand what type of player is making these comments.
if you've never made a quilt, then your opinion on quilt making = nothing.
i remember Narc would be mining and i'd get a message "hey, PKs at my XYZ mining spot, can you grab a couple of folks and help me kick their booties?"
i seem to remember raiders talking a LOT about community and lots of people talking about "oh, it's an MMO, play single player if you don't want to interact with others".
i'm not an advocate of large guilds. but small guilds can, and have, banded together to take out menaces before. treat pk'ers as you would any other menace. lots of areas where you mine (just for example, herbs, lumber all these things can be substituted in lieu of mining) have hostile npc critters that you might have to kill if they see you. why think of pks as anything different?
just a few friends can do most anything in a game, in a good game.
as for your comments starting with "as for npcs", i pretty much agree. mining spots should be depleted and you have to find new ones. after X amount of time, the mining spots get goodies again, but it's completely random, no marking *here's the good ores*.
i agree with npcs (monsters, evil humanoids, good humanoid, whatever) should wander or be located a tad more logically.
how hard is it to make that orc camp to where if it's attacked for say 3 days in a row, they pick up and move? make it where after X number of fights/deaths/whatever, the whole encounter relocates to another position.
i don't think npcs should protect commonly used roads. if there's trouble in an area, then either npcs (or players if it's player controlled cities) set a bounty for whatever is jacking folks in the area. then players have incentive to protect the roads. especially if the mobs ONLY attack things on the roads and you can't really find them until they attack (or seconds before they attack). maybe one drops a map or clue that leads to their home. then we have the whole *after so many deaths, we relocate the main base elsewhere* thing.
i dislike the idea of uber npc guards for towns or anything else for that matter. why? why are they guarding a town and not killing the dragons? if i'm a HERO and i'm slaying dragons as my line of work, why in the world can some lowly town guard kill me in three hits? maybe a mob of town guards. maybe for every 5 town guards they kick up the overall power level of the guards in the mob a notch. i can see my hero being overwhelmed by like 1-2 dozen guards if i just stand in one spot saying "bring it on!" but that 5 copper a week guard shouldn't stand a chance against someone who kills demons and dragons for fun.
edited to add:
i understand what you're saying about a merchant. pre-cu swg had this sort of thing. you COULD buy raw mats off auction houses and make your wares and sell them at the ah or at your own vendor. it's a hostile world out there, if you're unsure of an area, bring friends. some people had crafting only toons and i don't remember that many being successful solo. they'd normally join a city and then be the supplier for folks there (who would also use land plots to harvest for the merchants).
Let's see. UO (a little old school) then new and got bored. DAoC, Shadowbane, WOW (not much because I just didn't see the point). Vendetta Online, SWG (before the character development transplant), a little planetside and most recently D&D Online. I've done a few free previews, but I don't really count those (unless you want to talk character development because that's as far as I got.) Shadowbane and WOW are the most misleading titles I've run across. I've seen all types of players and most of them aren't what their detractors think they are. What most of the justifications from the "anti-social" gamers boiled down to was "because I can" and "because I'm bored." The 'because I can" crowd usually had no consequences to deal with and the "because I'm bored" crowd usually thought the game would be different and for some reason, wouldn't quit (I have some sympathy for that crowd because there aren't a lot of quality games to choose from)
About player vs NPC jobs. The reason players wont want to protect roads is the same reason players wont want to defend caravans or mining sites: If there's no attack, its boring. Miners shouldn't have to fight to use their primary skill, and you shouldn't have to either keep players on standby or go out alone and probably end up getting killed at least once before you can call in reinforcements. Defenders should be there on the spot for deterrence and intervene before you get killed even once. By the same token players aren't going to guard a road. They might go hunting for someone who is known to be attacking people on a road, but they aren't going to play the role of policemen and just stand around deterring crime. That's the job of the NPCs. To do that, NPCs should be more powerful or at least more versatile than a lot of games make them.
The reason the uber NPCs are guarding the town and not fighting the dragon is that they can only do one at a time. If they took off to fight the dragon, they might come back to no town (and that is EXACTLY what would happen if their enemies were players) and I don't mean UBER in the sense of they are tougher than all the players, but they need to be treated better by the devs. In most games they simply react to things instead of acting. If anyone is allowed to give them orders it is only the most basic orders. As the head of a city, you need to be able to use them at least as well as you could in any decent RTS game out there. You should be able to set up patrol routes, guard posts, contingencies in case of attack. I would love to see a set up where your guards can IM you (or fellow guild mates) under certain circumstances (like the town being attacked, sighting someone on your KOS list, someone in-game requesting an audience) NPCs are the cannon fodder. What they lack in strength, they make up for in numbers, being a trip-wire defense while your guild rallies and being your ground troops during the invasion while your guildmates assume the role of the officers. Shadowbane is laughable in it's treatment of guild combat. Although the guild structure is one of the best I've seen, there is no support structure for the army. Just silly little mine sites that weren't even in the game to begin with. Ubisoft missed the point by basing an entire game around simple combat and then trying to pass it off as a richly developed role playing game. I had a hard time finding ANY role playing, even in the single lore server (out of what? five now?) 9 times out of 10 when I'd get ganked it was from people who were too bored to do anything else and too hooked on the game to quit. You can't really do anything unless you're in a guild and if you're in a guild, you can't really do anything unless youre guild owns a city, and if all the city spots are taken, you have to conquer your own city, but you can't do that unless you already own a city. I can only surmise they were on crack when they thought up that nifty piece of circular illogic.
All I'm trying to say is: The term PvP shouldn't really exist. It shouldn't be an either/or thing. Give the non-combatants ways of defending themselves while still interacting with the people they need to and give everyone more things to do besides kill their Nth orc or their Nth player or make their Nth item, etc ad nauseum, and I swear, the next game developer I hear praising their graphics and sound I'm going to puke. How about you make a better game. I'm much more willing to give you a break on looks if the game mechanics hold my attention for longer than a week, than the other way around.
edit: Oh and I love playing mmogs with friends, but some times, you're available and your firends (or not all of them) are. That should not ruin your plans. Beyond that, solo play does not mean not interacting with other players, even if you don't adventure with them. That also shouldn't be an either/or thing. I don't want my entertainment depending on other people.
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,. Full pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much crafting or non pvp players and the servers are just to put it short,. Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
The main thing here is risk,But its much deeper then that,.Most games have 90% useless items no one wants,.why is that? well if theres no looting why do they need to buy anymore?
If they never risk there stuff they may only buy off you once,Safe no looting games where no one looses stuff makes the crafter less usefull.and yes full pvp servers have less crafters, for this reason, its a waist of time.but not cus they get killed over and over,.but from the fact that no one needs there stuff.
50% of players just dont understand how deep it is,.A full pvp game that has all types of players will make for a better econamy with supply and demand,and yes you will see alot more non pvp players there crafting,.
Allso opens up more room for RPing,.yes i said it.
Lots of players like to RP the "good guy" and if they have no one to protect then whats the point.
the Non pvper/crafter attracts the player killer,that brings in the Anti player killer (goodguy) from there it brings in Rpers,that leads to large guilds that have some sort of point.with in all the conflict the crafters get rich.
Originally posted by swordsbane Originally posted by damian7 i'll ask you the same question. what games have you played and what's your gaming experience, so that i know and understand what type of player is making these comments.
if you've never made a quilt, then your opinion on quilt making = nothing.
i remember Narc would be mining and i'd get a message "hey, PKs at my XYZ mining spot, can you grab a couple of folks and help me kick their booties?"
i seem to remember raiders talking a LOT about community and lots of people talking about "oh, it's an MMO, play single player if you don't want to interact with others".
i'm not an advocate of large guilds. but small guilds can, and have, banded together to take out menaces before. treat pk'ers as you would any other menace. lots of areas where you mine (just for example, herbs, lumber all these things can be substituted in lieu of mining) have hostile npc critters that you might have to kill if they see you. why think of pks as anything different?
just a few friends can do most anything in a game, in a good game.
as for your comments starting with "as for npcs", i pretty much agree. mining spots should be depleted and you have to find new ones. after X amount of time, the mining spots get goodies again, but it's completely random, no marking *here's the good ores*.
i agree with npcs (monsters, evil humanoids, good humanoid, whatever) should wander or be located a tad more logically.
how hard is it to make that orc camp to where if it's attacked for say 3 days in a row, they pick up and move? make it where after X number of fights/deaths/whatever, the whole encounter relocates to another position.
i don't think npcs should protect commonly used roads. if there's trouble in an area, then either npcs (or players if it's player controlled cities) set a bounty for whatever is jacking folks in the area. then players have incentive to protect the roads. especially if the mobs ONLY attack things on the roads and you can't really find them until they attack (or seconds before they attack). maybe one drops a map or clue that leads to their home. then we have the whole *after so many deaths, we relocate the main base elsewhere* thing.
i dislike the idea of uber npc guards for towns or anything else for that matter. why? why are they guarding a town and not killing the dragons? if i'm a HERO and i'm slaying dragons as my line of work, why in the world can some lowly town guard kill me in three hits? maybe a mob of town guards. maybe for every 5 town guards they kick up the overall power level of the guards in the mob a notch. i can see my hero being overwhelmed by like 1-2 dozen guards if i just stand in one spot saying "bring it on!" but that 5 copper a week guard shouldn't stand a chance against someone who kills demons and dragons for fun.
edited to add:
i understand what you're saying about a merchant. pre-cu swg had this sort of thing. you COULD buy raw mats off auction houses and make your wares and sell them at the ah or at your own vendor. it's a hostile world out there, if you're unsure of an area, bring friends. some people had crafting only toons and i don't remember that many being successful solo. they'd normally join a city and then be the supplier for folks there (who would also use land plots to harvest for the merchants).
Let's see. UO (a little old school) then new and got bored. DAoC, Shadowbane, WOW (not much because I just didn't see the point). Vendetta Online, SWG (before the character development transplant), a little planetside and most recently D&D Online. I've done a few free previews, but I don't really count those (unless you want to talk character development because that's as far as I got.) Shadowbane and WOW are the most misleading titles I've run across. I've seen all types of players and most of them aren't what their detractors think they are. What most of the justifications from the "anti-social" gamers boiled down to was "because I can" and "because I'm bored." The 'because I can" crowd usually had no consequences to deal with and the "because I'm bored" crowd usually thought the game would be different and for some reason, wouldn't quit (I have some sympathy for that crowd because there aren't a lot of quality games to choose from)
About player vs NPC jobs. The reason players wont want to protect roads is the same reason players wont want to defend caravans or mining sites: If there's no attack, its boring. Miners shouldn't have to fight to use their primary skill, and you shouldn't have to either keep players on standby or go out alone and probably end up getting killed at least once before you can call in reinforcements. Defenders should be there on the spot for deterrence and intervene before you get killed even once. By the same token players aren't going to guard a road. They might go hunting for someone who is known to be attacking people on a road, but they aren't going to play the role of policemen and just stand around deterring crime. That's the job of the NPCs. To do that, NPCs should be more powerful or at least more versatile than a lot of games make them.
The reason the uber NPCs are guarding the town and not fighting the dragon is that they can only do one at a time. If they took off to fight the dragon, they might come back to no town (and that is EXACTLY what would happen if their enemies were players) and I don't mean UBER in the sense of they are tougher than all the players, but they need to be treated better by the devs. In most games they simply react to things instead of acting. If anyone is allowed to give them orders it is only the most basic orders. As the head of a city, you need to be able to use them at least as well as you could in any decent RTS game out there. You should be able to set up patrol routes, guard posts, contingencies in case of attack. I would love to see a set up where your guards can IM you (or fellow guild mates) under certain circumstances (like the town being attacked, sighting someone on your KOS list, someone in-game requesting an audience) NPCs are the cannon fodder. What they lack in strength, they make up for in numbers, being a trip-wire defense while your guild rallies and being your ground troops during the invasion while your guildmates assume the role of the officers. Shadowbane is laughable in it's treatment of guild combat. Although the guild structure is one of the best I've seen, there is no support structure for the army. Just silly little mine sites that weren't even in the game to begin with. Ubisoft missed the point by basing an entire game around simple combat and then trying to pass it off as a richly developed role playing game. I had a hard time finding ANY role playing, even in the single lore server (out of what? five now?) 9 times out of 10 when I'd get ganked it was from people who were too bored to do anything else and too hooked on the game to quit. You can't really do anything unless you're in a guild and if you're in a guild, you can't really do anything unless youre guild owns a city, and if all the city spots are taken, you have to conquer your own city, but you can't do that unless you already own a city. I can only surmise they were on crack when they thought up that nifty piece of circular illogic.
All I'm trying to say is: The term PvP shouldn't really exist. It shouldn't be an either/or thing. Give the non-combatants ways of defending themselves while still interacting with the people they need to and give everyone more things to do besides kill their Nth orc or their Nth player or make their Nth item, etc ad nauseum, and I swear, the next game developer I hear praising their graphics and sound I'm going to puke. How about you make a better game. I'm much more willing to give you a break on looks if the game mechanics hold my attention for longer than a week, than the other way around.
edit: Oh and I love playing mmogs with friends, but some times, you're available and your firends (or not all of them) are. That should not ruin your plans. Beyond that, solo play does not mean not interacting with other players, even if you don't adventure with them. That also shouldn't be an either/or thing. I don't want my entertainment depending on other people.
A lot of those things take place in EVE, PVP'ers rely on crafters/miners/non-combat characters to survive.
A lot of those things take place in EVE, PVP'ers rely on crafters/miners/non-combat characters to survive.
I been meaning to try out EVE. My only problem with Eve is that you can't get out of your spacecraft and walk around. The way the game seems to be set up, you'd think that would be a minor problem, but for some reason it bugs me.
Anyway, that's what I mean by a support structure for combat and/or guild wars. Give everything a reason for being and you wont have to fear all the PvPers out there because they never know when they might need your services. Although you'll have to contend with the economic raids (it's a real common military tactic to attack caravans and small outposts, disrupting your opponents economy) but still.... It's not that non-combatants are killed by PvPers really. It's that much of the time, there's no point to the killing. Being killed in mmogs is a fact, but I want my killers to take an interest. I want to be a more than just a target of opportunity to them. I want them to be after me because of something I have (or might have) or because killing me would harm their enemies somehow, not just because I was there and they like killing.
In most games there's no reason not to PK if you're allowed to. There are always going to be plenty of reasons for players to kick the crap out of each other. Try giving them a reason or two NOT to instead of just saying "No PVP"
Its hard to reply to everyone/everything when the thread gets this crazy.
I am 90% of the time anti pk,I love to RP the good guy.as of right now im lost with no game that will offer my playstyle,.Back in the day i was defending the pk and all the griefers on UO forums cus i didnt want them to leave.
with out targets for them they leave,then I leave,.and your left with nothing but a bunch of l33ts that are doing nothing but fighting over nothing till the game dies.
without crafters/non pvp players the hard core Rping PK leave,then the hard core Anti pk leave,soon the players in the middle leave due to lack of players,and it will slowly fall to a 100% ubber loot farming game where everyone just talks about how good they are.
Some games are doomed right off the shelf,they start like this with all there non pvp restrictions and the game is just a ubber loot farming game where they all just prance around in ubber gear talking shit.and maby just maby go pvp in a restricted pvp area where they lose nothing and get vary bord vary fast.*wow* *cough*
Eve-onle is not perfect but its the only game that holds true and attracts all types of non pvp and pvp players giving it a wonderfull balance,.but its sci-fi and thats not for everyone.
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend Its hard to reply to everyone/everything when the thread gets this crazy. I am 90% of the time anti pk,I love to RP the good guy.as of right now im lost with no game that will offer my playstyle,.Back in the day i was defending the pk and all the griefers on UO forums cus i didnt want them to leave. with out targets for them they leave,then I leave,.and your left with nothing but a bunch of l33ts that are doing nothing but fighting over nothing till the game dies. without crafters/non pvp players the hard core Rping PK leave,then the hard core Anti pk leave,soon the players in the middle leave due to lack of players,and it will slowly fall to a 100% ubber loot farming game where everyone just talks about how good they are. Some games are doomed right off the shelf,they start like this with all there non pvp restrictions and the game is just a ubber loot farming game where they all just prance around in ubber gear talking shit.and maby just maby go pvp in a restricted pvp area where they lose nothing and get vary bord vary fast.*wow* *cough* Eve-onle is not perfect but its the only game that holds true and attracts all types of non pvp and pvp players giving it a wonderfull balance,.but its sci-fi and thats not for everyone.
Then I'll probably like EVE. I only wish there was a fantasy game with that kind of thinking behind it. Darkfall looks good.... IF it gets released and IF the devs aren't lying about it and IF it's complete when it's released. It's very rare that a game company gets all those "if"s correct.
AM i just old school? should i just stick to eve and FPS games and stop looking?
whats with all the controlled pvp no looting candy land level grinding BS out there,.I dont play to make freinds hold hands and go monster hunting,. I play to KILL players, I like to grief the griefers,Man I loved killing newb pk in ultima online.(I never kill helpless players its no challange)
It seems with out the griefing, stealing, killing, and no rules out side of towns, and the fear of risking it all., the games have all become the same cookie cutting crap and It looks like the end.some one needs to grow some balls and make a new UO or SWG with UO type of rules.
See, you pretty much answered your own question with that comment, "someone needs to grow some balls," which effectively tells developers they make current games because they're cowards. It's the typical approach for the PKer, furthering that Neanderthal stereotype, and usually results in no true hardcore PvP games. You, and just about every hardcore PKer, have shot themselves in the proverbial foot.
What you guys need is to drop the "tough guy" act when you're on forums. You need to actually want to talk and socialize for a bit and find other people who agree with your playstyle. Then you need to promote your playstyle, aggressively but not confrontationally. You avoid areas that will bring you in conflict with non-pvp or non-grief players. You don't want to troll forums and argue with players or developers who don't share your concept of entertainment; it's simply a waste of your time and effort.
Another thing to do is avoid promoting your playstyle by including any elements of griefing. To entice people to play and embrace your game ideal, you want elements a larger base of PvPers can relate to and enjoy. Griefing will never be a universally enjoyed element, because there'll always be the guy who does the griefing and the guy who got griefed. Instead, you should try to focus on the inherent freedoms of action in such a system, the elements of conquest and control available to players, and demonstrate to developers theres a sizable player base ready to embrace this style.
A good place to start may be current PvP games. Instead of wasting hours on forums insulting the people who make them, the people who play them, and the people who enjoy them, try asking for PvP hardcore servers with different rulesets. Stick to the guidelines I mentioned above and you may get lucky with a few servers in different games. From there, its not a long step to finding more games like UO.
Lastly, youre going to have to come to a realization that UO was never meant to be a die-hard PvP game. As far as millions of players were concerned, the developers included, it was broken at release. Which means you wont really demonstrate to developers that you have sizable market demography just by referencing the greatness of early UO. To compensate, you need to do two things:
First, you need to find many, many, many more people who enjoy your style and pack hardcore PvP ruleset servers in other games. You need forums of your own and threads to encourage PvP gamers to flock to your cause; you dont want to alienate them by quibbling over trivialities. You may have to accept sacrifices, and you will definitely have to find other avenues of game play that your game supports. A game that offers nothing but hardcore pvp isnt really an RPG at all, its just a big MMOFPS except with swords. You need a game that may focus on PvP, but offers other avenues of entertainment (conquest maybe, realm v realm, castle building, dungeon crawling, diplomacy, etc).
Secondly, you need to encourage players who dont necessarily share your narrow view of gameplay to branch out. UO, being one of the first few online games, forced hundreds of people with tons of different personality habits to play the game together. Now that there are so many games available to the public, this wont ever happen again. If you think you can just make a super badass PvP game and actually have anyone playing you can grief, youre pretty much mistaken. You want to encourage players who may not have a primary interest in PvP at all to come try your game for varying reasons.
In essence, you represent a small niche market. There are lots of gamers like this that want very specific things from their games. Some of them, like people who actually enjoy The Sims, are lucky. Their type of game can be made independently of what anyone else is doing. Griefers, and PvPers interested in hardcore, no-holds bar combat, are not lucky. Their little niche virtually requires other types of players (a variety of PvPers for one, and even some people who only enjoy PvP sparingly).
You cant continue to isolate and ostracize yourself from gamers and developers if you truly expect your games to get made. Insulting others, acting belligerent or narcissistic, or arguing incessantly with players on the opposite end of the spectrum, is a complete waste of your time and produces nothing.
You need to socialize, educate, and rally with players. You need to post coherent, intelligent, and friendly posts. Whether these things are the exact opposite of what you do when you play the game itself is irrelevant, its whats necessary to get the job done. When you try to use the same style to talk to people that you use to play games, you come off as an immature, aggressive, and confused individual just because that approach works for you in games, doesnt mean its going to work in reality.
Hey, if nothing else, you can always hire a lawyer to do all the talking for you. But whatever you do, youll have to find someone to champion this cause; someone who can be the face for this niche market and doesnt sound like hes 14 years old and wasnt hugged enough by his daddy.
(Not that your post necessarily is, but most posts are, and its still going to be the requirement to reaching your goals.)
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Then I'll probably like EVE. I only wish there was a fantasy game with that kind of thinking behind it. Darkfall looks good.... IF it gets released and IF the devs aren't lying about it and IF it's complete when it's released. It's very rare that a game company gets all those "if"s correct.
Ya the big problem with eve-online is your just a ship,and its hard to get a grip on the busy places in the game with out feeling all alone.I never did expect any of my freinds to play it but some do,.I rate eve vary high and seems to bring in alot of new players each month. but sadly im getting bord of it and need a medievil game.
Darkfall? I hear ya man,.I gave up on waiting for that game 2 years ago lol,.Its vaporware I think.I just hope to god that warhammer is not the same ol cookie cutter garbage,with pvp restrictions/class restrictions and all that jazz.
Originally posted by swordsbane Then I'll probably like EVE. I only wish there was a fantasy game with that kind of thinking behind it. Darkfall looks good.... IF it gets released and IF the devs aren't lying about it and IF it's complete when it's released. It's very rare that a game company gets all those "if"s correct.
Ya the big problem with eve-online is your just a ship,and its hard to get a grip on the busy places in the game with out feeling all alone.I never did expect any of my freinds to play it but some do,.I rate eve vary high and seems to bring in alot of new players each month. but sadly im getting bord of it and need a medievil game.
Darkfall? I hear ya man,.I gave up on waiting for that game 2 years ago lol,.Its vaporware I think.I just hope to god that warhammer is not the same ol cookie cutter garbage,with pvp restrictions/class restrictions and all that jazz.
I thought Dark and Light was going to be decent, but it's three days until release and from the beta feedback it's only a little more than 30% done. Ick..
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What zarcob said. Players have to take on a large portion of the guilt for how games end up. I'd like for an mmog to be all fun and games, but I'm not above shelving that for the moment if I think a game can be saved by a little organization. More gamers need to be proactive in their attempts to keep games alive. Hell, I think even Shadowbane can be saved if enough players stood up and said "Enough." I saw way too many dissolusioned idealists before I quit playing. It was sad. Most games are destroyed because the wrong element is drawn to them. They can be taken back the same way.
Comments
Aparently it's just not the same if their are people on other servers that can't have that done to them.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
So I need to learn to type as well as read?
I grabed what you typed as a general example of a very common attitude from PvPers. It wasn't meant as a direct respone to you.
I read your post and agreed with so much of it I just had to point out the one thing: If combat should be more FPS style (or all FPS) is primarily a question of what kind of game you want.
I would probably prefer something closer to current mechanics, but with significant ability to affect the outcome of a battle. Fleeing bad battles, picking the right fights, knowing what you're up against, equipping and training for versatility... Player involvement - which I want - can be more than FPS style.
And it is in no way pointless to have a character doing the fighting when you're not quick enough yourself. How is it worse than having him mining gold when you've never held a pick-axe in your life, and wouldn't know how to use one? A game is primarily entertainment - and that doesn't rule out FPS style combat; and entertainment can work on several levels.
Authors sitting down with pen in hand wrote epic tales and described great deeds. They did not accomplish this with quick reflexes, and yet the stories are worth reading. The gaming experience of epic deeds can be rewarding in the same way, with or without FPS.
On the real topic, I agree with most of the PvPeople here, at least generally. I don't view myself as PvP, but as roleplayer. Combat is entertaining, but if combat is everything then the game is just another boring plaything. I can suspend disbelief, but don't want to make an active effort in that direction. Current games tend to force that effort.
I can never decide what feels worst about these games. In some games it is the way quests are lined out like a tour; enter at level 1, leave at level 2, go on to face the angry orc in Dolbin's cave. I could accept it in well written single player games where the story made sense and needed the mechanism, but it is exactly the kind of thing I sought to escape by going online.
The combat model of today is mostly horrible across the line. There are exceptions.
Taking away death consequences, more than anything, ruins the immersiveness of the game. (Or maybe the prefabricated quest tours are worse afterall)
It goes something like this:
I'd rather play a game without PvP entirely than that.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
in wow, pvp has NO consequences whatsoever. oh wait, one poster did remark that if you die, then "you lose valuable time". yeah, whatever. so you have to run back to your body.
that's not pvp. part of the thrill IN pvp is that you CAN lose some or all of your stuff. the GOOD pvpers can, and do, lose their stuff on a regular basis.
in old uo, if someone was wearing bone armor, odds are, he's a pvper. pk, anti pk, whatever. why? cuz bone was real cheap and was almost equal to plate in the defense it gives. why didn't he just wear the sweet plate off the guys he killed? um because he probably did yesterday and after dying half a dozen times (well after the first death), he didn't have it any longer.
a common carebear notion is that if there's pvp then it's non stop ganking, it's always 30 versus 1. well, i remember one pk guild on great lakes. about 6 other guilds decided they'd "show us" and every night it was 30 versus 10 (when we actually had 10 on at once) and we'd eventually lose, but we'd take a few down with us.
another common carebear notion is that they love their items. oh, i spent 5,000,000 hours in this instance to get these purples, i'm god now. yeah, that's nice, so go pvp where you can't lose anything (other than the 45 seconds it took you to run back to your body).
so even if you were in a guild where it'd be 10 or 20 folks jumping on a handful -- people weren't sissy little carebears. they'd either organize their guild or get several guilds together to fight the bandit scourge.
you'd actually get an adrenalin rush from playing an online game. ya know, like when you're boxing, or sky diving, or heck maybe even scubaing in a new location for the first time.
can't say the carebear games (either in their pve or their pvp) have ever given me any sort of a rush. "oh noes i might die and lose valuable time getting back to help kill the bad guy~!!!" yeah um no.
the pks/pvpers back then, were normally the poorest folks in the game. did it matter? not really, cuz if you were a bandit or a pirate, well, that's what you were. you didn't want "honest work", like hunting dragons or mining and smithing (although you probably did both) -- you wanted blood.
if you've never experienced pvp on a true pvp game, then you, quite honestly, have no opinion on this topic. all you can do is "guess" at what it'd be like. so before you make your comments about what real pvp is/isn't; qualify it with "i played precarebear uo for a couple of years" or "imma hardc0re pvper in wowzers"; just so people know what kind of pvp you've had.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
So I need to learn to type as well as read?
only if you want to communicate with others on a forum.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
Combat is different than mining or other non-combat skills. It is what we used to call an 'opposed skill' It requires two people (or a PC and NPC) Combat should be fast-paced, it should take advantage of fast reflexes and penalize slow reflexes. It should require you to be there. As you say, the combat model is awful across the board. The dependence on characters and items is sickening. Get the right skill combinations and the right buffs and the right weapons and you are pretty much unbeatable. Tactics, player creativity and your own reaction time, and a little luck from time to time should be the majority of combat. FPS games understand this. Your character should support what YOU do in the game, not vice verse. Combat shouldn't be entirely fps, but have you seen some games out there? You literally can stick yourself next to a monster spawn and go do something else. Your character will return attacks and sometimes even follow the monster when/if it runs. Come on. If you're in combat, you should be forced to pay attention, and you should be forced to do stuff. If you don't want to have to pay attention in combat, then don't do it. If you can learn to do that stuff better than other players, then you should be able to defeat those other players more often than they defeat you.
This is why PvP sucks in most games too. People are so concerned with what their character is carrying that they get dissolusioned to the point of quitting the game if it gets stolen by someone who was simply bored and wanted something interesting to do.
Having said that, the consequences to players who kill other players indiscriminately is never high enough to deter. Either players want no PvP or they want to be able to kill indiscriminately and feel insulted when you propose some restrictions. So what you end up with is developers either opening the games up completely to the psychos and lunatics so that anyone who says anything bad about PvP is labelled a carebear, or they section the PvP so strictly that it has the air of a jousting tournament or a boxing match, and nothing interesting ever happens.
All of this means that there should be lots of other things to do in a mmorpg besides fight. This allows more people to participate, it allows a greater scope for wars and large-scale conflicts. It keeps people from getting so bored that they turn to griefing just for something interesting to do. In large scale conflicts, NPCs should be more than IQ:2 robots that defend your buildings. You should be able to command them like an army for both offense and defense. I've seen battles won and lost because one side or the other couldn't get enough people to log on at the right time. Having a bunch of players for a big battle should be a benefit, not a requirement. There is such a gap between what players can do and what NPCs can do that no one wants to use them for anything important. AI isn't given nearly enough attention. There should be something of an RTS game in every guild war.
There is plenty of room for improvement in mmogs. Processing power has more than doubled since I started playing them, and internet connections are getting better all the time, yet people are still making a game that's only a little better than the last one, and players flock to it like a man dying of thirst in the desert. It's time to raise our standards.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have no idea why you quoted me and asked what game I was playing damian7, your comments seem to be completely unrelated to my comments. I was responding to a complaint that there were no crafters "OR NON PVP PLAYERS" around. Why you think that your 100 or so PVP players and what they did has anything to do with non-pvp players playing games that don't have forced PVP today? Do you think I need to find 100 people who don't like PVP and so don't play games that require it?
Sounds like somone tried to PvP, was found wanting and is now airing their sour grapes.
Originally posted by Lt.Deadend
Ill just try to reply to all post's in one here,.
Full
pvp servers lose that "classic feel" the game offers,dont see much
crafting or non pvp players (maybe pure crafters?) and the servers are just to put it short,.
Inbalanced.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't
find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one (a pvp game i'm assuming is meant here)
there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're
never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of
gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened
because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have
choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on
servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment,
and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so
that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims
and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay
they want.
ok, the red is what i read and kinda replied to, blue is just my remarks.
you said something about a pvp game and they don't have crafters and non pvp players, cuz it's not fun for people (who've never played a pvp game) to get pvp'd. that makes no sense, but whatever.
didn't i talk about pvp players getting bored and wanting to craft? part of the other guy's comment WAS that the pvp games didn't have "much" crafting. didn't i talk about crafting and pvpers?
l2r, seriously. i can type stuff like "the sun is made of cow poo" all day, does it make it true?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i can talk all day long about knitting a quilt. i've never knitted one and have no idea how to knit. therefore, should anyone pay ANY attention to my ramblings about knitting a quilt?
same LOGICAL thinking goes with raiding, pvping, crafting, et cetera.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
You're missing the point. What if you want to be a miner and NOT fight? You should be able to stay in town if you want to be a merchant. You should be relatively safe in town not because of some arbitrary "safe zone" but because anyone who messes with the townsfolk will be squashed by the guards. It should be possible, but VERY difficult to mount an operation to take over the town, and it would be to your advantage to actually try not to harm the merchants, otherwise, you'd have to bring in your own when they got pissed off and left.
But hey, if you're a miner, you have to leave the town to practice your trade, right? Why can't you hire protection? If there was a sensible economy in place, players could hire NPCs (or other players) as guards, and NPCs that actually can defeat other players.
The problem with hiring PCs to do this is that if they do their job right (ie their mission is successful) they might not get much in loot. If they're good enough to deter the attack completely, they'll be bored, so NPCs will probably have to do the work.
And speaking of NPCS. Commonly used roads should be protected. Any facility where money is commonly exchanged should be defended. Places where players gather should be protected. The approaches to places where players commonly gather should be protected, again, not by a safe zone, but by NPCs dangerous enough that nothing but an army of players stands a hope of defeating. Towns should send out patrols who are looking for those on the wanted list or for those who have a burning desire to get on the wanted list.
There should be no MOB farms that tell everyone where the best ones are and camp there, either to get the best kills (and treasures) or to mug those who are there to get the best kills (or treasure) Let the monsters roam anywhere where the players are able to go (and let their spawn points roam too). Keep everyone guessing where that big dragon that's been occasionally sighted is going to strike next. The world should be a dynamic place. The boring places should attract the monsters (because no one is there anymore) and the hot spots should die out from over-fishing. Quests should be events that affect the entire game world, not just instanced TV dinners (save the princess after tea). If the game is good enough, quests take care of themselves, will be completely player driven and much more interesting than anything the devs can hope to come up with. I've seen it. It CAN happen.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
in uo, you could be a miner/smith and have enough points left over to be a powerful warrior-mage, or even mage-poisoner-fencer. as a crafter, you could easily skill up to gm in all your chosen skills and be quite able to defend yourself.
pvpers, after a time of "hardcore" pvping get real bored. they turn to fishing and crafting and such things as alternatives and for a different kind of fun. then maybe pvp here and there and back to a lil crafting.
this is not an assumption on my part. this is how pretty much every one in our little group (of about 100 steady players) felt in the old school uo. do i speak on what i think might have been or what people might think/want? no, i speak from all of us hanging out and chatting (ingame and more often on icq chats), and watching how people would get burned out on the nonstop pvping and WANT to do something different.
fishing and treasure hunting came out. all sorts of crafting and such gave another way for people to have some fun.
so, which game are you playing/have you played that has full pvp and lots of crafting, which you're making your remarks based upon?
You're missing the point. What if you want to be a miner and NOT fight? You should be able to stay in town if you want to be a merchant. You should be relatively safe in town not because of some arbitrary "safe zone" but because anyone who messes with the townsfolk will be squashed by the guards. It should be possible, but VERY difficult to mount an operation to take over the town, and it would be to your advantage to actually try not to harm the merchants, otherwise, you'd have to bring in your own when they got pissed off and left.
But hey, if you're a miner, you have to leave the town to practice your trade, right? Why can't you hire protection? If there was a sensible economy in place, players could hire NPCs (or other players) as guards, and NPCs that actually can defeat other players.
The problem with hiring PCs to do this is that if they do their job right (ie their mission is successful) they might not get much in loot. If they're good enough to deter the attack completely, they'll be bored, so NPCs will probably have to do the work.
And speaking of NPCS. Commonly used roads should be protected. Any facility where money is commonly exchanged should be defended. Places where players gather should be protected. The approaches to places where players commonly gather should be protected, again, not by a safe zone, but by NPCs dangerous enough that nothing but an army of players stands a hope of defeating. Towns should send out patrols who are looking for those on the wanted list or for those who have a burning desire to get on the wanted list.
There should be no MOB farms that tell everyone where the best ones are and camp there, either to get the best kills (and treasures) or to mug those who are there to get the best kills (or treasure) Let the monsters roam anywhere where the players are able to go (and let their spawn points roam too). Keep everyone guessing where that big dragon that's been occasionally sighted is going to strike next. The world should be a dynamic place. The boring places should attract the monsters (because no one is there anymore) and the hot spots should die out from over-fishing. Quests should be events that affect the entire game world, not just instanced TV dinners (save the princess after tea). If the game is good enough, quests take care of themselves, will be completely player driven and much more interesting than anything the devs can hope to come up with. I've seen it. It CAN happen.
i'll ask you the same question. what games have you played and what's your gaming experience, so that i know and understand what type of player is making these comments.
if you've never made a quilt, then your opinion on quilt making = nothing.
i remember Narc would be mining and i'd get a message "hey, PKs at my XYZ mining spot, can you grab a couple of folks and help me kick their booties?"
i seem to remember raiders talking a LOT about community and lots of people talking about "oh, it's an MMO, play single player if you don't want to interact with others".
i'm not an advocate of large guilds. but small guilds can, and have, banded together to take out menaces before. treat pk'ers as you would any other menace. lots of areas where you mine (just for example, herbs, lumber all these things can be substituted in lieu of mining) have hostile npc critters that you might have to kill if they see you. why think of pks as anything different?
just a few friends can do most anything in a game, in a good game.
as for your comments starting with "as for npcs", i pretty much agree. mining spots should be depleted and you have to find new ones. after X amount of time, the mining spots get goodies again, but it's completely random, no marking *here's the good ores*.
i agree with npcs (monsters, evil humanoids, good humanoid, whatever) should wander or be located a tad more logically.
how hard is it to make that orc camp to where if it's attacked for say 3 days in a row, they pick up and move? make it where after X number of fights/deaths/whatever, the whole encounter relocates to another position.
i don't think npcs should protect commonly used roads. if there's trouble in an area, then either npcs (or players if it's player controlled cities) set a bounty for whatever is jacking folks in the area. then players have incentive to protect the roads. especially if the mobs ONLY attack things on the roads and you can't really find them until they attack (or seconds before they attack). maybe one drops a map or clue that leads to their home. then we have the whole *after so many deaths, we relocate the main base elsewhere* thing.
i dislike the idea of uber npc guards for towns or anything else for that matter. why? why are they guarding a town and not killing the dragons? if i'm a HERO and i'm slaying dragons as my line of work, why in the world can some lowly town guard kill me in three hits? maybe a mob of town guards. maybe for every 5 town guards they kick up the overall power level of the guards in the mob a notch. i can see my hero being overwhelmed by like 1-2 dozen guards if i just stand in one spot saying "bring it on!" but that 5 copper a week guard shouldn't stand a chance against someone who kills demons and dragons for fun.
edited to add:
i understand what you're saying about a merchant. pre-cu swg had this sort of thing. you COULD buy raw mats off auction houses and make your wares and sell them at the ah or at your own vendor. it's a hostile world out there, if you're unsure of an area, bring friends. some people had crafting only toons and i don't remember that many being successful solo. they'd normally join a city and then be the supplier for folks there (who would also use land plots to harvest for the merchants).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Let's see. UO (a little old school) then new and got bored. DAoC, Shadowbane, WOW (not much because I just didn't see the point). Vendetta Online, SWG (before the character development transplant), a little planetside and most recently D&D Online. I've done a few free previews, but I don't really count those (unless you want to talk character development because that's as far as I got.) Shadowbane and WOW are the most misleading titles I've run across. I've seen all types of players and most of them aren't what their detractors think they are. What most of the justifications from the "anti-social" gamers boiled down to was "because I can" and "because I'm bored." The 'because I can" crowd usually had no consequences to deal with and the "because I'm bored" crowd usually thought the game would be different and for some reason, wouldn't quit (I have some sympathy for that crowd because there aren't a lot of quality games to choose from)
About player vs NPC jobs. The reason players wont want to protect roads is the same reason players wont want to defend caravans or mining sites: If there's no attack, its boring. Miners shouldn't have to fight to use their primary skill, and you shouldn't have to either keep players on standby or go out alone and probably end up getting killed at least once before you can call in reinforcements. Defenders should be there on the spot for deterrence and intervene before you get killed even once. By the same token players aren't going to guard a road. They might go hunting for someone who is known to be attacking people on a road, but they aren't going to play the role of policemen and just stand around deterring crime. That's the job of the NPCs. To do that, NPCs should be more powerful or at least more versatile than a lot of games make them.
The reason the uber NPCs are guarding the town and not fighting the dragon is that they can only do one at a time. If they took off to fight the dragon, they might come back to no town (and that is EXACTLY what would happen if their enemies were players) and I don't mean UBER in the sense of they are tougher than all the players, but they need to be treated better by the devs. In most games they simply react to things instead of acting. If anyone is allowed to give them orders it is only the most basic orders. As the head of a city, you need to be able to use them at least as well as you could in any decent RTS game out there. You should be able to set up patrol routes, guard posts, contingencies in case of attack. I would love to see a set up where your guards can IM you (or fellow guild mates) under certain circumstances (like the town being attacked, sighting someone on your KOS list, someone in-game requesting an audience) NPCs are the cannon fodder. What they lack in strength, they make up for in numbers, being a trip-wire defense while your guild rallies and being your ground troops during the invasion while your guildmates assume the role of the officers. Shadowbane is laughable in it's treatment of guild combat. Although the guild structure is one of the best I've seen, there is no support structure for the army. Just silly little mine sites that weren't even in the game to begin with. Ubisoft missed the point by basing an entire game around simple combat and then trying to pass it off as a richly developed role playing game. I had a hard time finding ANY role playing, even in the single lore server (out of what? five now?) 9 times out of 10 when I'd get ganked it was from people who were too bored to do anything else and too hooked on the game to quit. You can't really do anything unless you're in a guild and if you're in a guild, you can't really do anything unless youre guild owns a city, and if all the city spots are taken, you have to conquer your own city, but you can't do that unless you already own a city. I can only surmise they were on crack when they thought up that nifty piece of circular illogic.
All I'm trying to say is: The term PvP shouldn't really exist. It shouldn't be an either/or thing. Give the non-combatants ways of defending themselves while still interacting with the people they need to and give everyone more things to do besides kill their Nth orc or their Nth player or make their Nth item, etc ad nauseum, and I swear, the next game developer I hear praising their graphics and sound I'm going to puke. How about you make a better game. I'm much more willing to give you a break on looks if the game mechanics hold my attention for longer than a week, than the other way around.
edit: Oh and I love playing mmogs with friends, but some times, you're available and your firends (or not all of them) are. That should not ruin your plans. Beyond that, solo play does not mean not interacting with other players, even if you don't adventure with them. That also shouldn't be an either/or thing. I don't want my entertainment depending on other people.
That's the real complaint, isn't it? It's not that you can't find a game with full looting and open PVP, it's that when you find one there aren't crafters and non-pvp players for you to prey on. You're never going to get the "classic feel" of UO, where there were tons of gank targets who didn't want to engage in PVP; that only happened because UO was pretty much the only game in town. Since people have choices now, people who don't want to engage in PVP will just play on servers or games where they aren't forced to.
People play games for their enjoyment, not for your enjoyment, and non-PVPers aren't going to flock to an open-PVP, full-loot game so that they can be your victims (or so they can be someone else's victims and you can save them). They'll just play games that offer the gameplay they want.
The main thing here is risk,But its much deeper then that,.Most games have 90% useless items no one wants,.why is that? well if theres no looting why do they need to buy anymore?
If they never risk there stuff they may only buy off you once,Safe no looting games where no one looses stuff makes the crafter less usefull.and yes full pvp servers have less crafters, for this reason, its a waist of time.but not cus they get killed over and over,.but from the fact that no one needs there stuff.
50% of players just dont understand how deep it is,.A full pvp game that has all types of players will make for a better econamy with supply and demand,and yes you will see alot more non pvp players there crafting,.
Allso opens up more room for RPing,.yes i said it.
Lots of players like to RP the "good guy" and if they have no one to protect then whats the point.
the Non pvper/crafter attracts the player killer,that brings in the Anti player killer (goodguy) from there it brings in Rpers,that leads to large guilds that have some sort of point.with in all the conflict the crafters get rich.
Let's see. UO (a little old school) then new and got bored. DAoC, Shadowbane, WOW (not much because I just didn't see the point). Vendetta Online, SWG (before the character development transplant), a little planetside and most recently D&D Online. I've done a few free previews, but I don't really count those (unless you want to talk character development because that's as far as I got.) Shadowbane and WOW are the most misleading titles I've run across. I've seen all types of players and most of them aren't what their detractors think they are. What most of the justifications from the "anti-social" gamers boiled down to was "because I can" and "because I'm bored." The 'because I can" crowd usually had no consequences to deal with and the "because I'm bored" crowd usually thought the game would be different and for some reason, wouldn't quit (I have some sympathy for that crowd because there aren't a lot of quality games to choose from)
About player vs NPC jobs. The reason players wont want to protect roads is the same reason players wont want to defend caravans or mining sites: If there's no attack, its boring. Miners shouldn't have to fight to use their primary skill, and you shouldn't have to either keep players on standby or go out alone and probably end up getting killed at least once before you can call in reinforcements. Defenders should be there on the spot for deterrence and intervene before you get killed even once. By the same token players aren't going to guard a road. They might go hunting for someone who is known to be attacking people on a road, but they aren't going to play the role of policemen and just stand around deterring crime. That's the job of the NPCs. To do that, NPCs should be more powerful or at least more versatile than a lot of games make them.
The reason the uber NPCs are guarding the town and not fighting the dragon is that they can only do one at a time. If they took off to fight the dragon, they might come back to no town (and that is EXACTLY what would happen if their enemies were players) and I don't mean UBER in the sense of they are tougher than all the players, but they need to be treated better by the devs. In most games they simply react to things instead of acting. If anyone is allowed to give them orders it is only the most basic orders. As the head of a city, you need to be able to use them at least as well as you could in any decent RTS game out there. You should be able to set up patrol routes, guard posts, contingencies in case of attack. I would love to see a set up where your guards can IM you (or fellow guild mates) under certain circumstances (like the town being attacked, sighting someone on your KOS list, someone in-game requesting an audience) NPCs are the cannon fodder. What they lack in strength, they make up for in numbers, being a trip-wire defense while your guild rallies and being your ground troops during the invasion while your guildmates assume the role of the officers. Shadowbane is laughable in it's treatment of guild combat. Although the guild structure is one of the best I've seen, there is no support structure for the army. Just silly little mine sites that weren't even in the game to begin with. Ubisoft missed the point by basing an entire game around simple combat and then trying to pass it off as a richly developed role playing game. I had a hard time finding ANY role playing, even in the single lore server (out of what? five now?) 9 times out of 10 when I'd get ganked it was from people who were too bored to do anything else and too hooked on the game to quit. You can't really do anything unless you're in a guild and if you're in a guild, you can't really do anything unless youre guild owns a city, and if all the city spots are taken, you have to conquer your own city, but you can't do that unless you already own a city. I can only surmise they were on crack when they thought up that nifty piece of circular illogic.
All I'm trying to say is: The term PvP shouldn't really exist. It shouldn't be an either/or thing. Give the non-combatants ways of defending themselves while still interacting with the people they need to and give everyone more things to do besides kill their Nth orc or their Nth player or make their Nth item, etc ad nauseum, and I swear, the next game developer I hear praising their graphics and sound I'm going to puke. How about you make a better game. I'm much more willing to give you a break on looks if the game mechanics hold my attention for longer than a week, than the other way around.
edit: Oh and I love playing mmogs with friends, but some times, you're available and your firends (or not all of them) are. That should not ruin your plans. Beyond that, solo play does not mean not interacting with other players, even if you don't adventure with them. That also shouldn't be an either/or thing. I don't want my entertainment depending on other people.
A lot of those things take place in EVE, PVP'ers rely on crafters/miners/non-combat characters to survive.
I been meaning to try out EVE. My only problem with Eve is that you can't get out of your spacecraft and walk around. The way the game seems to be set up, you'd think that would be a minor problem, but for some reason it bugs me.
Anyway, that's what I mean by a support structure for combat and/or guild wars. Give everything a reason for being and you wont have to fear all the PvPers out there because they never know when they might need your services. Although you'll have to contend with the economic raids (it's a real common military tactic to attack caravans and small outposts, disrupting your opponents economy) but still.... It's not that non-combatants are killed by PvPers really. It's that much of the time, there's no point to the killing. Being killed in mmogs is a fact, but I want my killers to take an interest. I want to be a more than just a target of opportunity to them. I want them to be after me because of something I have (or might have) or because killing me would harm their enemies somehow, not just because I was there and they like killing.
In most games there's no reason not to PK if you're allowed to. There are always going to be plenty of reasons for players to kick the crap out of each other. Try giving them a reason or two NOT to instead of just saying "No PVP"
Its hard to reply to everyone/everything when the thread gets this crazy.
I am 90% of the time anti pk,I love to RP the good guy.as of right now im lost with no game that will offer my playstyle,.Back in the day i was defending the pk and all the griefers on UO forums cus i didnt want them to leave.
with out targets for them they leave,then I leave,.and your left with nothing but a bunch of l33ts that are doing nothing but fighting over nothing till the game dies.
without crafters/non pvp players the hard core Rping PK leave,then the hard core Anti pk leave,soon the players in the middle leave due to lack of players,and it will slowly fall to a 100% ubber loot farming game where everyone just talks about how good they are.
Some games are doomed right off the shelf,they start like this with all there non pvp restrictions and the game is just a ubber loot farming game where they all just prance around in ubber gear talking shit.and maby just maby go pvp in a restricted pvp area where they lose nothing and get vary bord vary fast.*wow* *cough*
Eve-onle is not perfect but its the only game that holds true and attracts all types of non pvp and pvp players giving it a wonderfull balance,.but its sci-fi and thats not for everyone.
See, you pretty much answered your own question with that comment, "someone needs to grow some balls," which effectively tells developers they make current games because they're cowards. It's the typical approach for the PKer, furthering that Neanderthal stereotype, and usually results in no true hardcore PvP games. You, and just about every hardcore PKer, have shot themselves in the proverbial foot.
What you guys need is to drop the "tough guy" act when you're on forums. You need to actually want to talk and socialize for a bit and find other people who agree with your playstyle. Then you need to promote your playstyle, aggressively but not confrontationally. You avoid areas that will bring you in conflict with non-pvp or non-grief players. You don't want to troll forums and argue with players or developers who don't share your concept of entertainment; it's simply a waste of your time and effort.
Another thing to do is avoid promoting your playstyle by including any elements of griefing. To entice people to play and embrace your game ideal, you want elements a larger base of PvPers can relate to and enjoy. Griefing will never be a universally enjoyed element, because there'll always be the guy who does the griefing and the guy who got griefed. Instead, you should try to focus on the inherent freedoms of action in such a system, the elements of conquest and control available to players, and demonstrate to developers theres a sizable player base ready to embrace this style.
A good place to start may be current PvP games. Instead of wasting hours on forums insulting the people who make them, the people who play them, and the people who enjoy them, try asking for PvP hardcore servers with different rulesets. Stick to the guidelines I mentioned above and you may get lucky with a few servers in different games. From there, its not a long step to finding more games like UO.
Lastly, youre going to have to come to a realization that UO was never meant to be a die-hard PvP game. As far as millions of players were concerned, the developers included, it was broken at release. Which means you wont really demonstrate to developers that you have sizable market demography just by referencing the greatness of early UO. To compensate, you need to do two things:
First, you need to find many, many, many more people who enjoy your style and pack hardcore PvP ruleset servers in other games. You need forums of your own and threads to encourage PvP gamers to flock to your cause; you dont want to alienate them by quibbling over trivialities. You may have to accept sacrifices, and you will definitely have to find other avenues of game play that your game supports. A game that offers nothing but hardcore pvp isnt really an RPG at all, its just a big MMOFPS except with swords. You need a game that may focus on PvP, but offers other avenues of entertainment (conquest maybe, realm v realm, castle building, dungeon crawling, diplomacy, etc).
Secondly, you need to encourage players who dont necessarily share your narrow view of gameplay to branch out. UO, being one of the first few online games, forced hundreds of people with tons of different personality habits to play the game together. Now that there are so many games available to the public, this wont ever happen again. If you think you can just make a super badass PvP game and actually have anyone playing you can grief, youre pretty much mistaken. You want to encourage players who may not have a primary interest in PvP at all to come try your game for varying reasons.
In essence, you represent a small niche market. There are lots of gamers like this that want very specific things from their games. Some of them, like people who actually enjoy The Sims, are lucky. Their type of game can be made independently of what anyone else is doing. Griefers, and PvPers interested in hardcore, no-holds bar combat, are not lucky. Their little niche virtually requires other types of players (a variety of PvPers for one, and even some people who only enjoy PvP sparingly).
You cant continue to isolate and ostracize yourself from gamers and developers if you truly expect your games to get made. Insulting others, acting belligerent or narcissistic, or arguing incessantly with players on the opposite end of the spectrum, is a complete waste of your time and produces nothing.
You need to socialize, educate, and rally with players. You need to post coherent, intelligent, and friendly posts. Whether these things are the exact opposite of what you do when you play the game itself is irrelevant, its whats necessary to get the job done. When you try to use the same style to talk to people that you use to play games, you come off as an immature, aggressive, and confused individual just because that approach works for you in games, doesnt mean its going to work in reality.
Hey, if nothing else, you can always hire a lawyer to do all the talking for you. But whatever you do, youll have to find someone to champion this cause; someone who can be the face for this niche market and doesnt sound like hes 14 years old and wasnt hugged enough by his daddy.
(Not that your post necessarily is, but most posts are, and its still going to be the requirement to reaching your goals.)
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Ya the big problem with eve-online is your just a ship,and its hard to get a grip on the busy places in the game with out feeling all alone.I never did expect any of my freinds to play it but some do,.I rate eve vary high and seems to bring in alot of new players each month. but sadly im getting bord of it and need a medievil game.
Darkfall? I hear ya man,.I gave up on waiting for that game 2 years ago lol,.Its vaporware I think.I just hope to god that warhammer is not the same ol cookie cutter garbage,with pvp restrictions/class restrictions and all that jazz.
Ya the big problem with eve-online is your just a ship,and its hard to get a grip on the busy places in the game with out feeling all alone.I never did expect any of my freinds to play it but some do,.I rate eve vary high and seems to bring in alot of new players each month. but sadly im getting bord of it and need a medievil game.
Darkfall? I hear ya man,.I gave up on waiting for that game 2 years ago lol,.Its vaporware I think.I just hope to god that warhammer is not the same ol cookie cutter garbage,with pvp restrictions/class restrictions and all that jazz.
I thought Dark and Light was going to be decent, but it's three days until release and from the beta feedback it's only a little more than 30% done. Ick..
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What zarcob said. Players have to take on a large portion of the guilt for how games end up. I'd like for an mmog to be all fun and games, but I'm not above shelving that for the moment if I think a game can be saved by a little organization. More gamers need to be proactive in their attempts to keep games alive. Hell, I think even Shadowbane can be saved if enough players stood up and said "Enough." I saw way too many dissolusioned idealists before I quit playing. It was sad. Most games are destroyed because the wrong element is drawn to them. They can be taken back the same way.