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Requesting a veteran clear us some misconceptions I have about this game
Tangogulf
Member UncommonPosts: 58
Hi all;
I played the trial and purchased EVE about a year ago. After about a month or so, I cancelled my membership because of some rumours that I had read...and to some extent experienced in the game. I'm wondering if a veteran of the game could comment on these rumours and experiences of mine, so that I could make an informed choice on whether to retry the game or not. I think that these misconceptions stopped me from getting beyond the newbie learning curve to the best part of the game.
I will say this, it seems that those who have gotten past the learning curve of this game seem to relish it, like few Mmorpgs to date. I would really like to get past my misconceptions and the initial learning curve in order to see what all the fuss is about. With that, here are the things that were bothering me at the time:
1) Combat - Again I was at a very low level, but my experience with the combat was basically auto attack and circle the other ship until the fight was over. No positional or special attacks, just auto attack and circle. I didnt like this, I wanted alot more complexity and skill requirements out of the combat. Was I too low to make an informed decision on combat? Did I get the wrong or right idea with the combat?
2) All there is to do is mine - Again let me qualify, that this would be paraphrasing the rumour. I really enjoy making money via the economy. The economy and the markets seemed very robust in the game. I envisioned travelling to far off stations, buying products low and selling high in other sectors. However, given that I could not at all survive in combat against pirates, I really was quite concerned about travelling beyond the safe zones, thus hand cuffing my economic activity. It seemed that I had to mine nearby to survive.
3) I ll never catch up with other players - The skill based system. The longer that Im here, the better I get. Therefore, if someone has been here 2 years, and I have been here only a month, then I stand the risk of being continuously ganked (and again handcuffed) in my activities.
I think more then anything, I had the perception that if I travelled too far or did too much in attempting to expand my economic empire, then I was finished. I didnt feel I had the freedom to really experiment with or play the game.
Can anyone help dispel these myths for me?
Comments
Nova;
thanks for the well thought out response. I knew there had to be more to my simplified way of thinking and you have spelt them out for me.
So it is clear that I was displaying an amount of ignorance in the game and I need to learn more about it. I enjoy researching, so Im wondering if you or anyone else can point me to some web based documents that might provide me a little more information then the guide posted on the EVE website.
Player responses to this game cause me to want to participate in it and like the game. If my biggest hurdle to it is lack of knowledge, Ill do my darndest to fix it.
I just resubbed to the game and doing a new toon with the new bloodline. I played the game for about 8 months before Exodus came out so it was a long time:)
1. Only in pvp you will truly feel how the combat can be so complex especially when you are fight in grps well almost everybody fights in teams in low sec. You need quite good temwork for sucesfull fights, for eg one guy is in a fast interceptor who is the bait the enemy catches the bait and follows you, then one of ur other fridn scrambles him and the 3rd one nails him:):) It can be pretty fun but takes quite a while to get there. Though it seems that skill training became faster with all the free goodies.
2. Agent mission now give out pretty good amoutn of money so you cna make lots of cash from them. Also there are some player given transport mission. It seems that the game matured so much that ppl actually pay pretty decent money for transportation. Though sometimes it can be risky.
3 Depends what u wanna do. You will never catch more epxerienced plyers in terms of total sp but you can specialize yourself in areas where you can be as good as old time veteran players.
I suppose, on the MOST BASIC level, this is somewhat true. But there is a lot of depth hidden in combat.
Let's first focus on the ships and the setups. You can do many things with a ship. You can rig it for speed (overdrives and afterburners) tanking (shield boosters/armor repaiers and their hardeners), or a damage dealer/sniper/ganker (sensor boosters, damage/tracking mods). You have to consider the limitations of the design, how much powergrid and cpu the ship has (which you can increase with certain mods), since every component uses those 2 resources. You have to consider your capacitor abilities, because nothing works if you don't have cap. Also, you have to consider what range your ship will attack. You can choose from SR and LR guns, and also ammo affects the range of your gun too. Also, for some types of ammo (projectile and missles to be exact) you can choose what type of damage you deal, depending on what your opponent has hardened the least.
As far as positioning, well, depending on your ammo and guns, you have to make sure that your enemy is at the range you can hit it at, also, you have to consider the trasversal velocity (how fast he is moving in relation to you). So it's best actually to head for the target or attack a fast target from far away. Plus your skills also take part in deciding if you get a hit and how much damage you do.
No special attacks, sorry. But I suppose a Titan's doomsday weapon could count as one.
Mining is an important part of the economy, since it is the basis of all constructed items. So if you want to build, you'll have to mine (or do missions/rat a lot and be very good about gathering your loot and refining what you don't need/sell). BUT, it's not the only way to make money. You can do missions, and I strongly suggest you find agents that give out kill missions at least half the time (Admin, the securities, intel, personell IIRC).
Well, once a person hits lvl 5, that's it, there is no going higher than that. So if you focus on one skill tree after doing your learning skills advanced and basic (trains skills faster), you can get to be roughly the same with the vets in a number of months. Being in the game longer only gives you the ability to diversify more. Plus, take risks, not everyone in low sec is a pirate (but you should be careful). Or join a corp that works in low sec. But take risks, use t1 items and insure your ships, make instas if you need to haul something important and you should do just fine.
Hope that helps you.
Indeed it does help. Thanks all for your responses. I realize my misconceptions were fairly generic in that you here many lowbies with the same misconceptions.
I figure that there has to be a point somewhere along the line, that a player in EVE has a moment of illumination when they "get it." I confess that I have not had that experience.
Having said that, when I read discussions pertaining to the game, I can see quite clearly that other players have had that moment of illumination. Clearly you people have had it.
Thanks again
1) Pegasus and Novaseeker pretty much summed it up for combat.
2) I rarely ever mine. The only time I ever really mine is when I get that mission that spawns the Omber. There's a killing to be made right there! The rest of the time I just steal from Macro Miners. They do all the work... and I benefit greatly from it. It's nice.
3) That is true, but as anyone has already/can/will tell you, it doesn't take skill points to win in PvP. It takes player skill. You have to be quick minded. Whether your thoughts are "fight back" or "RUUUUNN!!!" The process has to come quick. Also, it's best to hang out in groups. Strength in numbers. Skill will always win over skill points. You do, however, have to take into concideration that, if you're in a frigate, you probably shouldn't try fighting a battleship. You might be able to keep the fighting at a stalemate, but he'll last much longer than you will in the ring. But, all that really is is incentive to train up to a battleship.
You should come back. If you're scared that all there is is mining, then don't mine. Go combat, or... (though I don't condone this) become an ore thief. There's your minerals, and (most likey) some PvP experience right there. There are plenty of options in Eve. Think of something you want to do, and then go do it. If it's fun, stick with it. If it sucks, change careers. There is no such thing as a useless skill, only skills that are used less. You may not be able to catch the "veterans," but you can still become one.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Right I also have some questions im also new to eve have gained some insight into its mechanics but a few questions (hopefully not too stupid) I do have:
1. With blueprints is there anyway to increase the stats or properties of a item eg: increase the output of ab or mwd? I know bps can be researched so u spend less minerals or less time but is that it?
2.Do Caldari suck at pvp ? (im still a long way from that though) I am caldari btw. or does it all depend on how u fly ur ship and what tactics u use?
3.Do lvl 5 missions exist? I have seen 1 lvl 5 agent when i click on him to see the standing requirments it says "Lvl 5 agents not open to the public".
I have no other questions that i can think of. Like to say thanks to you all that patiently answer questions like these
Well, in reply to the above three questions:
1. No, item attributes cannot be changed by producing them. It's something CCP is looking at for future additions to the technology (crafting) tree however, so it might be possible in future.
2. No they don't suck at all in pvp. In Eve pvp the situation determines what ship/setup/tactics combo is best suited. While missiles have a number of drawbacks under certain circumstances, they perform really wll under others. Also, Caldari shisp tend to have an abundance of midslots, which (again under certain circumstances) are very valuable assets since they allow very strong spcific setups.
Examples of ships in the cadlari tree that definately have theri place in pvp:
merlin, kestrel, crow, harpy, blackbird, cerberus, eagle, falcon, rook, scorpion, raven. And that's excluding the battlecruisers, which I'm not too familiar with myself. In their particular classes, especially the crow, raven, harpy, blackbird and falcon are top of the line.
3. Lvl 5 missions do not exist. Level 5 agents do, but they aren't active yet. They will become active at some point in future, probably after CCP have dealt with the issues regarding grouping in pve combat. Rest assured tho, it's not likely to take another three years before CCP get around to that. However, don't see agent missions as mroe then they are: a resource. Eve is mostly about the greater picture of corporation activity and corporate competition. Aquiring wealth won't keep you entertained for very long I'd say, since CCP see wealth mostly as tool, not goal in itself.
EVE is the only game that offers you a true escape from reality.
I have a real-life example of combat:
I was in my Hawk (assault frigate) doing an agent mission and was having an easy time killing all the slow-moving NPC rats that I had no problems orbiting at 10 km. And then at the very end of the mission, I came across 2 fairly fast-moving cruisers that flew away from me and I was only slightly faster than them (no afterburners or microwarpdrive). So I thought "no biggie, I'll just slowly chase them down while tanking the damage". Big mistake, turns out I was right in their optimal with no transversal velocity so I was getting hit for MASSIVE damage. After trying twice, I finally conceded and equipped my Hawk with an afterburner and manually flew in a zigzag pattern to give me some decent transversal velocity.
I believe your other points are answered adequately so I'll answer this one.
I would strongly disagree that Caldari ships are poor in PVP.
First reason: EW, the Blackbird, the Ferox, and the Scorpion are THE best EW ships, and EW can win a battle if you can keep your enemies from being able to target let alone fire at you.
Second: The Raven, this ship is a great shield tanker and a monster damage dealer with an easy ability to swap damage types as needed. The only disadvantage is that Torps/cruise missiles take time to reach a target as opposed to the "instant hit" of a gun. But when they hit: ouch.
Also, one of my corp mates which the Ferox is his weapon of choice can do things with that ship.
So, I think you're in good hands as a Caldari sir. Have fun with EVE
God Bless
I believe your other points are answered adequately so I'll answer this one.
I would strongly disagree that Caldari ships are poor in PVP.
First reason: EW, the Blackbird, the Ferox, and the Scorpion are THE best EW ships, and EW can win a battle if you can keep your enemies from being able to target let alone fire at you.
Second: The Raven, this ship is a great shield tanker and a monster damage dealer with an easy ability to swap damage types as needed. The only disadvantage is that Torps/cruise missiles take time to reach a target as opposed to the "instant hit" of a gun. But when they hit: ouch.
Also, one of my corp mates which the Ferox is his weapon of choice can do things with that ship.
So, I think you're in good hands as a Caldari sir. Have fun with EVE
God Bless
All races are pretty equal as far as PvP quality. Why? Because, thus far, I've not seen any racial bonuses on ships. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Missiles, are for the most part, an excellent choice. People may argue, but you get all the different levels of damage PLUS one extra when it comes to torpedos. You get FoF Missiles which will fire even if your targeting system has been jammed. As Peg said, you can switch between damage types to perform optimal damage to your enemies. Missiles also have a very good range on them, and with the right training can be fired almost as fast as turrets can fire (in comparison to their original ROF).
The problems lie in signature radius. The smaller the ship... the less damage a missile will do. Though, that is pretty much nullified in a Ferox because it fired Heavy Missiles, and I've found heavy missiles do pretty much optimal damage (it will only be in the 100s to 200s) on all ships they are fired upon. Cruise missiles are generally the PvP missile of choice though because the average PvPer is floating around in a ship ranging from a Cruiser size to a Battleship size which means you'll get a pretty good hit off. Where Cruise Missiles become a waste is on Frigates.
Their ships are also usually much slower with a bigger signature radius. Why? Because Caldari ships shield tank. With the shield tank comes a higher signature radius. I don't really know the physics behind it, but that's generally why. Of course, shield tanks have quite a few skills to help them out. I have a friend who's tank literally has over 100% resistances to everything if he equips correctly, and he has over 10,000 shield hp. His problem is that he's easy to hit, but his solution is that he can tank those hits really well.
So, no, Caladari don't suck at PvP. No race "sucks" at PvP. It all really depends on who's playing the race.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
I ping a lot of MMORPGs (and some of the ones that are not) on this site. But I would like to say that I think EVE is the very best MMORPG out there for the type of game it is. PvP works and means something. Economy works and means something. Player orgs work and mean something. Ship construction and character development works and means something.
Why do I not play EVE? Fundamentally two, and only two, reasons :
1. The travel times Gate to Gate <zone> Gate to Gate <zone> rinse and repeat x Whatever the number of jumps. It is just sooooo boring. Space is space is space is space. Dull. Sorry, pretty (but static) pics can only go for so long. Now if you could warp directly from Gate to Gate with no transit time, and if the Zone Transitions were faster, well . . .
2. No "Cockpit' view mode; no WSAD + QEZC move mode. I play my MMORPG games in 1st person Virtual Reality mode. I want to actually be the character piloting the ship. I want to actually PILOT that ship, not clicky round in 'space' to manuever. I want to work Cockpit Controls, not icons plastered over my vew of space. I want to be IN the game, not outside just playing the game.
That's it. If EVE ever has those features, I will be resubscribing. But, I don't expect them ever to do this. Oh well. Someday a MMORPG will provide this sort of environment. Until then . . .
Oh, and note that you should not say doing #1 is 'unrealistic', and then not give me #2.
Good Hunting, All
Besides, each race's ships (not the race, just their ships) has it's own advantage when it comes to pvp. Some are better for fleet ops then others, some for small groups, others for solo, and Amarr make great bait.
Given that getting any resistance to 100% in EVE is mathamatically impossible, and that a ship with 100% resistances to all damage types would be completely invulnerable, I'd have to say that you dont know what youre talking about.
Don't assume you know everything.
1) I didn't say all resitances at the same time, but he can buff up each resistance to more than invulnerable. Funny thing is though, if you buff up against Kinetic, you pretty much null out most turret/projectile damage leaving you only vulnerable to missiles of another type.
2) I wanted to call him a complete liar myself, but I can't kill him. Even getting through his "mediocre" tank tends to swallow up my capacitor. And, I have most of my cap skills maxed. He's no fool, and he's ALWAYS the person that's doing things people didn't think they could do in the game... without exploiting.
You don't have to have ALL the resistances up ALL the time, just read what your opponent is doing and buff up against that resistance. It's simple. The same goes for damage. Most ships are naturally vulnerable to 1 damage type. Milk it out, and start hurting it. Sometimes, though, you happen to run along somebody that just knows what the hell their doing. I know what I'm talking about.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Also, once you get established in the game, you don't have to move around that much! I operate in a constelation of about 8 systems and rarely even notice travel time. When I move back and forth to empire (30+ jumps), I run it with instas. It takes a bit of time, but it's not horrible. If I just want to get down to 0.0 and not bring a new ship - there's the joys of Jump Clones! In seconds you can travel across the entire galaxy, with just a little preplanning and the right corporation (access to an outpost...).
As for #2 - You are one of many that has requested it, and CCP has said flat out that it will never be. Atleast they're honest... but in truth I agree with them. If you read into the backstory, you'll see that there is no 'cockpit' you're in liquid filled egg with a rubber mask completly covering your head, with tubes sticking in, and out, of everywhere. Personally, I don't want to see that, but I can understand where you're coming from, I really enjoyed Jumpgate for the first person combat. Eve however, is just not set up for it. Trying to manuever for combat manually could put you at a severe disadvantage, but then again i wouldn't mind a little finer control sometimes.
If Eve had these views it would be just like everyother game out there. But Eve isn't. Besides if yu had a cockpit view, you wouldn't last very long in PvP.
Gate jumps: Most Players have "instas" Bookmarks to shorten travel time. And or they stay in a certain area. 2-3 jumps usually. Eve is the only REAl TIME game out there. Skill training, travel time, etc. 24,000+ players on the same server says it all.
Given that getting any resistance to 100% in EVE is mathamatically impossible, and that a ship with 100% resistances to all damage types would be completely invulnerable, I'd have to say that you dont know what youre talking about.
Don't assume you know everything.
1) I didn't say all resitances at the same time, but he can buff up each resistance to more than invulnerable. Funny thing is though, if you buff up against Kinetic, you pretty much null out most turret/projectile damage leaving you only vulnerable to missiles of another type.
2) I wanted to call him a complete liar myself, but I can't kill him. Even getting through his "mediocre" tank tends to swallow up my capacitor. And, I have most of my cap skills maxed. He's no fool, and he's ALWAYS the person that's doing things people didn't think they could do in the game... without exploiting.
You don't have to have ALL the resistances up ALL the time, just read what your opponent is doing and buff up against that resistance. It's simple. The same goes for damage. Most ships are naturally vulnerable to 1 damage type. Milk it out, and start hurting it. Sometimes, though, you happen to run along somebody that just knows what the hell their doing. I know what I'm talking about.
RollinDutch is correct - it's not possible to reach 100%, and it's certainly not possible to exceed it. It is possible to build a very strong tank, with all resistances upwards of 90%, but you wont find that on a Battleship, or even a cruiser. Tanks like that are reserved to Assault Frigs (afaik).
For those of you who want to run the math - In EVE, resistance do not add, they multiply. So if I start out with 60% resist to EM, and then fit 3 25% EM Resist mods, I end up with about 83% resists, not 100 or 135%. See below:
Starting 60% Resist = 40% dmg gets thru.
40 * .75 = 30 ie 70% resist.
30 * .75 = 22.5 ie 77.5% resist.
22.5 * .75 = 16.875 ie 83% resists.
As you can see, each additional mod is applied only to the damage that gets through the previous ones...
Add to that the fact that each additional mod reduces in value. I do not know the exact formula, but after 3 mods, they begin to have lower bonues... so you might go from 3 25% to 4 24% or 23% mods (this is just an example, I'm not aware of the formula, or certain that it applies to resists).
Given that getting any resistance to 100% in EVE is mathamatically impossible, and that a ship with 100% resistances to all damage types would be completely invulnerable, I'd have to say that you dont know what youre talking about.
Don't assume you know everything.
1) I didn't say all resitances at the same time, but he can buff up each resistance to more than invulnerable. Funny thing is though, if you buff up against Kinetic, you pretty much null out most turret/projectile damage leaving you only vulnerable to missiles of another type.
2) I wanted to call him a complete liar myself, but I can't kill him. Even getting through his "mediocre" tank tends to swallow up my capacitor. And, I have most of my cap skills maxed. He's no fool, and he's ALWAYS the person that's doing things people didn't think they could do in the game... without exploiting.
You don't have to have ALL the resistances up ALL the time, just read what your opponent is doing and buff up against that resistance. It's simple. The same goes for damage. Most ships are naturally vulnerable to 1 damage type. Milk it out, and start hurting it. Sometimes, though, you happen to run along somebody that just knows what the hell their doing. I know what I'm talking about.
RollinDutch is correct - it's not possible to reach 100%, and it's certainly not possible to exceed it. It is possible to build a very strong tank, with all resistances upwards of 90%, but you wont find that on a Battleship, or even a cruiser. Tanks like that are reserved to Assault Frigs (afaik).
For those of you who want to run the math - In EVE, resistance do not add, they multiply. So if I start out with 60% resist to EM, and then fit 3 25% EM Resist mods, I end up with about 83% resists, not 100 or 135%. See below:
Starting 60% Resist = 40% dmg gets thru.
40 * .75 = 30 ie 70% resist.
30 * .75 = 22.5 ie 77.5% resist.
22.5 * .75 = 16.875 ie 83% resists.
As you can see, each additional mod is applied only to the damage that gets through the previous ones...
Add to that the fact that each additional mod reduces in value. I do not know the exact formula, but after 3 mods, they begin to have lower bonues... so you might go from 3 25% to 4 24% or 23% mods (this is just an example, I'm not aware of the formula, or certain that it applies to resists).
Agree 100%, that is exactly how math works in EVE; most of modules in EVE are effected by dimishing returns. It would be really stupid if you were allowed to reach 100% resistance to any paticular damage because that would make you invincible to that damage source.
more stuff
even more stuff
RollinDutch is correct - it's not possible to reach 100%, and it's certainly not possible to exceed it. It is possible to build a very strong tank, with all resistances upwards of 90%, but you wont find that on a Battleship, or even a cruiser. Tanks like that are reserved to Assault Frigs (afaik).
For those of you who want to run the math - In EVE, resistance do not add, they multiply. So if I start out with 60% resist to EM, and then fit 3 25% EM Resist mods, I end up with about 83% resists, not 100 or 135%. See below:
Starting 60% Resist = 40% dmg gets thru.
40 * .75 = 30 ie 70% resist.
30 * .75 = 22.5 ie 77.5% resist.
22.5 * .75 = 16.875 ie 83% resists.
As you can see, each additional mod is applied only to the damage that gets through the previous ones...
Add to that the fact that each additional mod reduces in value. I do not know the exact formula, but after 3 mods, they begin to have lower bonues... so you might go from 3 25% to 4 24% or 23% mods (this is just an example, I'm not aware of the formula, or certain that it applies to resists).
Agree 100%, that is exactly how math works in EVE; most of modules in EVE are effected by dimishing returns. It would be really stupid if you were allowed to reach 100% resistance to any paticular damage because that would make you invincible to that damage source.
Maybe he meant like 100% increase. Like from 40% to 80% :P
Though personally I think he is just lying.
Thankyou for your responses I dont feel so bad being caldari now *g*. I do have 2 last questions though:
1. what is nerfed ? Ive seen this term many times but for the life of me cant figure out what that means
2. Jump clones I know abit about them you can use a jump clone to travel to a far away station (mostly in 0.0 space) but ... how do u get a jump clone and do I lose my implants when I use one?
and EVE rocks
Invulnerable doesn't mean he can't be killed... it simply means he won't be killed. It will take much more than what my battleship (and as I've recently come to find out... mine and another friend's battleship) can dish out in order to get through his tank which makes him pretty damned invulnerable. And, if most of my turret shots just seem to bounce off (and the ones that do hit, hit for... 20) ... he may as well be completely invulnerable.
I'm not asking for believers. I was just giving an example of a friend. Invulnerable. I didn't say invincible or immortal or breathing fire and shooting lightning from his ass.
SobaKai.com
There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
Invulnerable doesn't mean he can't be killed... it simply means he won't be killed. It will take much more than what my battleship (and as I've recently come to find out... mine and another friend's battleship) can dish out in order to get through his tank which makes him pretty damned invulnerable. And, if most of my turret shots just seem to bounce off (and the ones that do hit, hit for... 20) ... he may as well be completely invulnerable.
I'm not asking for believers. I was just giving an example of a friend. Invulnerable. I didn't say invincible or immortal or breathing fire and shooting lightning from his ass.
Well its not that we are not believing or anything, but we just want to see how math works out. Math rules apply to everyone in game. So we are just trying to understand the cause.
By the way if most of your shots "bounce off" that means you are outside of your range, or your turrets dont track him effectivly. Either way, if you miss that is not his tank it is your guns. As for hitting him for 20s well, I am not entirely sure which guns you are using and how skilled are you in using them, so it is hard to say. If you really want to test his tank, get a Dominix to stick 5 heavy drones on your friend, and make sure that he has drone interfacing at 5. Those ususally generate around 200 DPS, another thing you can do is take a t1 cruser and fit it with gank build (blasters/auto guns) those usually generate 120 - 130 DPS, again it all depends on your skills.
On the supporting side of your argument, given that you devote your ship to shield regeneration tank. It is possible to get your BS to recharge your shields as much as 160 shields per second (without SB) while having OKish resistances. However the top of hill would be command ships, Vulture can have about 75% resistances to all types of damage and maintain a maxium passive shield regenertion rate of 230 shields per second that is w/o use of SB.