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can I get a Ranger PLEASE?
MasterChaos
Member Posts: 75
In every game that exsists, archery has been beaten down, smashed into little peices and after selecting only a few of those little peices it is forced to behave like melee. WHY?
Archery is a form of combat that in real life is completely unlike every other form of combat. Just think for a moment. An Archer "Stalks" his pray. He selects his possition to fire from. He waits for the perfect shot and then low and behold, he takes the perfect shot. WHY? Because he is an Archer. He is not a muscle-bound, arm flexing sword swinger. He is not a mystical magical artillery peice. He is an artist. He is patient. He is an Archer.
I understand why it has been torn down leaving only the weapon in play. It doesnt fit into a turn or attack/delay combat system. But I have thought about it a great deal and there is one factor that can be applied to make archery more realistic and at the same time not overbalance everything else. Time.
This system I am about to talk about is a system that I proposed to a game design group, unfortunately the game never saw the light of day, but here it is.
The Archer has a targeting reticle. This reticle is two circles, one inside the other. The inner circle represents the perfect shot, and yes that means a one hit kill if aimed correctly. The outer circle represents your aim. So if you have just stopped from a hard run and are trying to take aim, the outer circle is very large. That means your shot might hit something inside the outer circle. As the Archer takes time to aim, the outer circle begins to shrink at a very slow rate. This would work much like the targeting reticles in many first person shooters. To take the time to wait for the perfect shot, ie, the circles meet, would take a while. At low levels somewhere in the range of 3 minutes, or at very low levels the two circles dont fully meet. As an Archer gains skill and level the circles would meet faster and faster.
And so now everyone is saying "Oh no, you cant one hit kill. You can't make a "perfect" shot. Its unfair. Its too powerful. Its Its Its". I say forcing an Archer to behave exactly the same as a skull smasher is not fair. The key factor here is time.
For a beginning skull smasher how long does it take to kill a monster of equal level? 3 minutes? maybe 4? However long it is, that is how long it takes an Archer to line up a perfect shot. Its all about Time.
Now for rapid firing, for example you hit a cow in a herd and now the bull is charging you, its all about the outer circle. You could even color code the circles. For example, when you release an arrow it takes time to reload. So while you are reloading your targeting reticle is red. Once the bow is loaded and drawn, it turns green to indicate that you can fire at any time. At the same time the outer circle starts to make its trip towards the inner one. So rapid fire would use the outer aiming circle for determining accuracy.
So can I please get a Ranger. A character that I can stalk around in the woods. A character that will wait in cover, taking very careful aim, and then when the moment is right releasing the arrow. A character that stands right beside the Paladin releasing arrow after arrow, damaging the charging line. A real Archer, an Artist. You know, a Ranger.
Comments
In DaoC you can one shot people. It takes a little time. Even if it didn't, you would still be sitting in hiding, picking off people with one shot. I know, I've done it. If you had to stay there for ten minutes then I might think it fair.
A battle is only fun if you get to participate in it. A fight is only fun if it doesn't end in 1 or 2 seconds. A challenge is only there if you have an equal chance of losing. Frankly, I'm tired of killing off my enemies in a shot (or two at times). There simply is no challenge to it.
After years of Daoc, I'm a firm believer that any game that gives one
class/ability the Win button... instant kill, no chance in hell you'll
survive the attack, needs to go back to design school.
While I do agree with your assesment for PvP, you stated the point that I was trying to make. Its all about time. "If you had to stay there for ten minutes then I might think it fair." I am not talking about running around the woods, spotting an animal, aiming for a few seconds and then firing. I am talking about really being able to stalk something, and more from the PvE side of things. PvP is a whole different ball of wax.
If someone were to use this system in PvP what would be the consequences? People that didnt want to be stalked would have to work on observation skill, or something similar. It would mean just running through the woods might get an arrow shot at your head, so people would have to work on a dodge skill for more then just a second thought melee combat skill. The Ranger trying to stalk someone if PvP would have to spend a lot of time and thought on the whole thing, would have to think about angles of approach, wind, elevation, line of site, both to target and back to keep from being spotted, would have to spend time building a stalking skill, would have to spend a lot of time praticing his/her archery skill. This is what I am talking about, having the skills and abilities in the game that actually promote roleplaying, not just as a mechanic of the game, but facilitating skill building. Giving a player a reason to want to have all those skills. Rewarding them for spending the time to develope and think about what their character is, who they want to be, how they want to be viewed by everyone else.
For simplicity sake, you can just turn off one hit kill when it is against another player.
When it comes to PvE though, think of the possibilities. Ok so it takes a Ranger 5 minutes to line up that perfect shot on the bear. Like I said before, it should be about the same amount of time for a swordsman to slay a bear. Its the roleplaying that comes into play. A Ranger is the master of the woods. He can read footprints like no one else can. He can move in the forest without making a sound, without being spotted by his prey. He uses the terrain to his advantage. He is constantly thinking about everything involved to make that one shot count. Its what is really involved with BEING a Ranger. They are loners. They are somewhat looked down on in polite society, Why? Because they can take the time and kill you with one arrow, that is why. Because they dont need a team to go kill a bear. They dont have to buy food or clothing from the local economy, they are self providing. They are Rangers.
I am not trying to think of ways to make an archer unbalanced or unfair. I am trying to think of a way to make an archer be something more then a class that gets lumped into the melee combat system just because someone didnt want to take the time to think of a way to balance what an archer really is so that it would fit in the game and at the same time still be an archer. Instead, every game out there just hacks archers to peices all in the sack of balance.
So archers in games aren't really being subjected to anything that melee types aren't.
The difference is not the ease of the killing stroke, but the chance of being one-shotted yourself. A swordsman risks their life for the payoff that they might be able to get that one-shot in quicker than an archer could. But, of course, in games where you come back from death all the time, it doesn't seem like much of an incentive to be an archer. :P
But the main issue is that archery in general is problematic.
If you have any type of 'one hit kill' system in-game, it will get mastered and/or exploited. Any MMO worth its money will have collision detection of some sort, which instantly means groups developing tactics to safe block the archers, giving them time to do whatever is needed to perform a kill shot. This is mainly relavent in PvP but is just as important, seeing as PvP is as necessary an option as all out PvE imo.
So taking it in a PvP perspective, Guild A plays hours a day together, gets their tactics perfectly sorted, 3 Tanks, 6 Rangers, 2 Healers. Now, any group they come across, the majority being social gamers and not 24/7 HJaholics like them, will be blocked out, one shot killed, slaughtered, pissed off.
Then, screams will go out, Ranger class is waaay overpowered, nerfs will eventually come for game-wide sustainability.
Putting a 3min timer on a perfect shot or such is in itself problematic imo too. I cannot think of a time when I was in a group where I could stand there doing nothing for 3minutes, let alone the fact you're contributing nothing to the group.
You'd have to make the steadying thing interuptable or it's god mode, 3-5minutes of uninterupted 'settling' to wait on the circles to merge would not only be pretty much impossible but also extremely boring. And if you do find you have 3-5 minutes to settle and oneshotkill someone, it's probably because you're in a group that has developed a way to just oneshotkill anyone/thing they come across...
I am aaaaall for some way of making Rangers a viable archer class.
The main thing I can think of to help this is to make bows NOT have a @#%*^ing minimum distance to fire!
Has to be my biggest hatred with what Devs do to Rangers/Archers, make you need to be 5-15m away to be able to use a bow. This is the stupidest cop out possible in my opinion.
Guild Wars, sadly, does the best Ranger I've played so far, in that you're a true bow user (this is leaving out the "is a Ranger only a bow user?" argument, as afawk, Ranger = Archer in HJ).
So, no minimum distance!
And don't let archers use skills on the run, to stop the stupid kiting thing (I gawd damn hate kiting...). It's simple. If you want to use a skill, you stop and you aim.
Secondly, varying stances would be awesome imo.
Stance one = FPS style reticle, FPS style, standing equals wider target spread than crouching, if you stand still for 3seconds the width of where your arrow will go shrinks, allowing a more refined targetting direction. The longer you hold the mouse, the further back you draw the string, the harder the arrow hits. As you are in FPS view, you can't see your angles, so are easily interupted, plus maybe receive +15% damage due to lack of blocking etc.
Stance two = Area of Effect archery. Good for having 10 Rangers side by side, firing high, lobbed arrows down onto a marching enemy force, much like the longbowmen did back in Olde England days etc. You view in a wide 3rd person, with a big circle on the ground, the further away, the wider the circle (due to wind etc). You can then have 20 archers lobbing arrows down onto a closing force, with low accuracy.
There we have machine gun vs rifle dynamics, barrage vs kill hits.
I'm sure people can think of more stances.
As Foxy said, I too don't think a kill shot for archers and a 2min fight for meleers/casters makes sense. I think either we need to put 4 arrows in their chest just as a tank needs to do 4 or 5 'savage chops'. Allowing us to have one 'super arrow' just opens up way too many possibilities of imbalance, tactics exploitation, uber groups etc.
I think there are plenty of ways to make archers exciting and unique, offering different styles of play in the one class.
I also think most MMO Devs to date have lacked the courage to try anything new due to not wanting to overpower the archer class; and rather the opposite, the archers are usually the first class to get overwhelmingly nerfed.
I'd be very interested to hear what the Simugods are planning in regards to archery. It'll mean the difference between me heavily RP'ing a forest-bound, somewhat solo Ranger, or me spending my days as an Empa-.. Healer.
Of course, all just my opinion.
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
And actually, an arrow can kill in one shot in real life. Dear friend was US champ few years ago, and trust me, what she can do with a bow can certainly kill you in one shot. Of course, if you put one shot bow kills in, then you need to put in one slice kills. A someone that has you from behind can kill you with one slice of the neck, eh?
But what I was getting at is that I just don't think it'd be viable for healthy gameplay to have the ability to one-shot kill someone of equivalent level.
I only need to think of the debarcle that was the EQ2 PvP release.
The well used Necro 'bug', the pet that would one hit kill you. If an arrow could do the same, it'd be the same as this.
You're harvesting, then you sort of lag out a bit, and then you're looking at your Revive screen. This is what you'd be opening the playerbase up to. In PvP, Rangers sneaking around, sitting there prep'ing, then you drop dead.
I see zero fun in that, and HJ is about fun. That's the kind of "hardcore" crap you'd put in Vanguard. You know, stupidly over the top.
I just want archery to be as much about skill as it is standing right back somewhere and selecting someone and pressing auto-attack. I want to be able to use a bow in any situation or distance.
Man, I'd love for a Ranger to have a knack of picking herbs, knowing the terrain etc. A character that actually lives in and KNOWS the wilds.
Time will tell I guess.
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
Archery and I have a love/hate relationship. We tend to love each other when we are bound by the hip, and seemingly hate one another when arrows are used against us.
My first introduction to archery was in Ultima Online. At the time ranged combat by way of either magery or archery was king. Even to this day those skills are still held in high regard in the world of Sosaria. Equipped with my bow I was a lethal force to be reckoned with. If I could get you in my line of sight than chances were that you’d be dead before you even saw me. It was a wonderful feeling to be able to smite my foes with so little effort and yet so much raw power. Then the day came when I was fed my own medicine. I remember it dearly. There, in the deepest depths of the dungeon Shame, an arrow pierced my heart and my body lay strewn – the blood pooling around my quiver of bolts.
Ronald McDonald was his name, and his fame was that of wtfman.com. I had been killed instantly and for no better reason than itemized gaming: a bow of vanquishing. Ultima Online has since further strayed down the path of item-based gaming with the release of the Age of Shadows expansion. From that day forth I continued to trade one-shot kills with other players. The game was no longer an expression of skill, but rather an issue of who could get their shot off first. Shortly after the release of The Second Age (the first Ultima Online expansion), I quit playing Ultima Online.
Throughout my massively multiplayer online gaming career I declined the opportunity to play any type of archery-based character. Instead I played a plethora or characters ranging in class from melee to sorcerer, healer to tradesman, paladin to berserker. A bow would never see my hands until the Dark Age of Camelot became a reality.
I oft pride myself in being the first level 50 enhance cleric in Dark Age of Camelot. It was an accomplishment that was very difficult to see in to fruition. I was a cleric that was virtually useless as a healer. As an enhance cleric I could only join groups that were already established with healers. Though seemingly useless, I was a very sought after commodity. My skills were so sought after that I actually became one of the first level 50 players in the game simply by reputation. Why?
A warrior, with my buffs, could instantly kill a warrior of equal level in one hit. An archer, with my buffs, could fire a critical shot in 1.0 seconds instead of 5.0. A wizard, with my buffs, could fire their nukes in less than half the time and with over double the damage. A healer, with my buffs, could regenerate mana at unprecedented rates.
Since ranged characters were ruling realm vs. realm combat I made the decision to open up a second account and created a scout. With the guided assistance of my enhance cleric I reached level 50 in record speed. I soloed from level 1 all the way to 50. My favorite moment was when I’d first created the character; as a level 1 character I attacked a level 6 creature and successfully killed it without requiring heals – all this was done simply with the enhancements from my cleric.
My love for archers was quickly renewed when I returned to realm vs. realm combat: this time using my scout. The beauty of having my cleric was that there was no range limit on my buffs - I could be anywhere in the same zone as my scout and the buffs would still be valid. Once I learned the nuances of realm vs. realm combat as a scout I was set for life.
The most infamous moment I had with that character was the day that I decimated a group of 8 level 50 characters all my by lonesome in under 60 seconds. The best part of it was that I never once got hit. With my enhance cleric’s buffs I was able to successfully one-hit kill two healers, two ranged magic users, a fellow archer, a stealth user, and two-hit kill two hardcore tanks.
Unfortunately this bliss lasted for only short period of time. Enhancement caps were introduced and my buffs essentially became less effective. The damage that ranged classes could inflict was slightly reduced. The combination of these two elements made my enhance cleric/scout combination virtually meaningless. I began to loath my scout.
I’ve never touched a bow since…
When games are initially released, there is often an imbalance between melee and ranged characters. One with always be predominantly stronger than the other and the issue revolves around one center: distance. If a melee type can get within attacking range of a ranged type than the ranged type will likely perish. If a ranged type can prevent a melee type from reaching them than the melee type will likely perish. Finding the balance so both class types are effective is an insanely difficult task.
I too would like to see rangers properly represented, but I fear they won’t hold up to the hopes of die-hard ranger fans simply because it’s too difficult to hold true to reality and class balancing. Perhaps Wyr will play a vital role in the ability to mold an ideal ranger. Only time will tell what Simutronics comes up with.
Nelson K. Thachuk
Stratics Media Group
FINAL FANTASY XI Stratics
Arremus, I totally agree that archery should me more about skill, and less about auto-target rapid-fire. I like the idea of having different effects from your stance. A ranger in a crouch slowly sneaking up on something its still aiming, versus running through the woods at top speed, drawing and fireing means you hit the tree 20 meters to the left. I dont like kiteing as a tactic, never have. Necro's from EQ1 are the only real good kiters anyway, and that wasnt even really kiteing, it was reverse kiteing.
Also you dont always have to sit and wait for the perfect shot either. When you are in a group and facing the charging hoard, you can fire at any time as long as you aren't reloading. That was where the color change on the targeting circles came from. If they are red, you are reloading and can't fire. When they turn green, you can fire at any time, and the outer circle starts to close in slowly on the inner, but that doesn't stop you from firing. Your arrow would hit somewhere inside the outer circle.
So what if one hit just won't work, no way to balance in everyone's eyes. Arremus you had a good idea about changing the damage the arrow does. If I want to hold my draw for a little bit while I aim, then the damage would increase. Also I would say that if this is in place, your following arrows should home in on your target because your aim is still there, your just firing your next arrow is all.
And yes I agree that the minimum distance to fire a bow is flat retarded. I have a weapon, why cant I use it?
As for PvP, the honest trueth is I hate it. Any system that allows one player to kill another player will always, always, always produce greifing. It doesn't matter what penalty you put on it, it doesn't matter the consequences, there will always be greifing, ganking, and abuse. And don't start telling me about how much fun it is, or that you dont play PvP like that, or that you love the challenge it provides. Maybe you dont, but someone will. In a PvP system there will be abuse, plain and simple. There are plenty of PvP games out there already, and most likely HJ will have PvP servers, so just turn this perfect shot system off when in PvP. Besides, thats not what I started this thread for.
The easy answer is to just turn off the perfect shot when aiming at a player. No more unsportsmanlike PvP killing. I wasnt trying to design this system for PvP anyways.