Originally posted by Dis_Ordur It is about time for another larger sized deployment... The main criticism I have for the war in Iraq is that not enough troops were sent the first time... For a invasion/rebuilding of Iraq, at least 300k troops were needed, not 100k... Ruhmsfeld was trying to make the military out to be like some efficient corporation with "doing more with less", but this failed miserably...
I'll agree with you on that. I definitely believe we could have done better by letting the military dictate the fight rather than Washington. That saidm the military has done a fine job, considering. Kudos to them.
Originally posted by honzolo Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by honzolo Let's all remember that most of the democrats also voted to go to war in Iraq. Many of you seem to be forgetting.. or at least just using selective memory. The fact is that we are there... things are going our way more and more every day and we must stay there and finish the job. Leaving early would be disastrous. But then, some of you would rather see your country fail than have a success that might result in G-Dub getting some credit. That's sad. I have never seen that before. When Bill Clinton went to war in the Balkans there were those who opposed it, but I don't remember anyone actively hoping and working for it to be a failure.
Well maybe because the war's objective has changed so many times because the other reasons for the war failed. So yeah Bush is a failure and a lier. I don't think selective memory is my problem, more like Rummy's problem. If Bush never brought up the fake WMDs and feared the country into support then I don't think we would be there. Tyler Drumheller of the CIA is speaking out about his firsthand experience of Bush selecting the evidence he likes and ignoring the rest when it came to WMDs, I saw the interview on 60 minutes.
LOL, to say the war has failed is just ridiculous. Just because you want it to, doesn't make it so. Saddam will never be around to threaten the region, a new government has been formed, Zarqawi is dead, over 40 percent of the terrorists have been killed, we have captured/killed hundreds since Zarqawi met his fate, we've just caught two more senior officials of AlQaeda and are continuing to dismantle their power structure whilst sending their followers to meet Allah. Zarqawi's documentation show what a bad situation the insurgency is in. Our military is carrying out an incredibly successful campaign against them while Iraqi forces are growing more and more able to control their country on their own. Things are falling into place.
I understand the last couple weeks have been bad for you liberal democrats with all the successes over there. So I guess you guys are reduced to celebrating the 2500th death. That's really all you have to hold on to anymore. Pathetic.
Bush had the same intelligence the Clinton administration used to justify bombing Iraq in 1998, and you know it as well as I. We know Hussein did have WMD's and has used them in the past. Had he not kicked out the inspectors none of this would have happened. Had he not been trying to shoot down our aircraft over the no fly zones he agreed to in the ceasefire agreement from the first Gulf War, this wouldn't have happened. There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left.
As far as this CIA guy you keep touting, he is just another bitter CIA guy who is upset that massive changes have been undertaken to revamp his organization and he resents it. The CIA was neutered during the eight years of the Clinton administration, and it needs fixing. The people in the way of that need to go.
Oh man, are you really this naive to believe the war was about removing a dictator from power ? You need to do some serious reading on how the Rockefeller led oil cartel works. Try Diplomacy by Deception by Dr. John Coleman for starters.
Originally posted by honzolo Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by honzolo Let's all remember that most of the democrats also voted to go to war in Iraq. Many of you seem to be forgetting.. or at least just using selective memory. The fact is that we are there... things are going our way more and more every day and we must stay there and finish the job. Leaving early would be disastrous. But then, some of you would rather see your country fail than have a success that might result in G-Dub getting some credit. That's sad. I have never seen that before. When Bill Clinton went to war in the Balkans there were those who opposed it, but I don't remember anyone actively hoping and working for it to be a failure.
Well maybe because the war's objective has changed so many times because the other reasons for the war failed. So yeah Bush is a failure and a lier. I don't think selective memory is my problem, more like Rummy's problem. If Bush never brought up the fake WMDs and feared the country into support then I don't think we would be there. Tyler Drumheller of the CIA is speaking out about his firsthand experience of Bush selecting the evidence he likes and ignoring the rest when it came to WMDs, I saw the interview on 60 minutes.
LOL, to say the war has failed is just ridiculous. Just because you want it to, doesn't make it so. Well the war was based on a bunch of lies and had we known the truth then we probably would still have many soldiers alive today....we wouldn't have gone. Saddam will never be around to threaten the region, So I guess we're on a mission to kill dictators? 1 down.........a lot more to go. a new government has been formed, Tell me where in the Constitution it gives the government power to go into other countries and create/convert them into a democracy or anything else with our tax paying money? Zarqawi is dead, So? Some new guy took over, the media/government will hype him, place a giant bounty on him, kill him, Bush's ratings go up, rinse, repeat. over 40 percent of the terrorists have been killed, 40% of what? The world? You realize we can't kill all the terrorists in the world. We could have spent $290,222,700,000 protecting our borders and sky from all terrorists. we have captured/killed hundreds since Zarqawi met his fate, we've just caught two more senior officials of AlQaeda and are continuing to dismantle their power structure whilst sending their followers to meet Allah. You realize CIA gave birth to Al CIAda while fighting the Russians? You think afterwards CIA said good luck and left them on their own? Al Qaeda = CIA. Zarqawi's documentation show what a bad situation the insurgency is in. Our military is carrying out an incredibly successful campaign against them while Iraqi forces are growing more and more able to control their country on their own. Things are falling into place. At the sametime our borders are begging all terrorists to come in. You don't even have to be that clever because even families are coming and teenagers. Plus other countries are not our responsibility otherwise it would be defined as a "New World Order".
I understand the last couple weeks have been bad for you liberal democrats with all the successes over there. So I guess you guys are reduced to celebrating the 2500th death. That's really all you have to hold on to anymore. Pathetic. I'm not even close to a liberal democrat. I'm just against lies, and wars that leave us open to attacks even more.
Bush had the same intelligence the Clinton administration used to justify bombing Iraq in 1998, and you know it as well as I. We know Hussein did have WMD's and has used them in the past. Had he not kicked out the inspectors none of this would have happened. Had he not been trying to shoot down our aircraft over the no fly zones he agreed to in the ceasefire agreement from the first Gulf War, this wouldn't have happened. There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left. Can you show me that documentation?
As far as this CIA guy you keep touting, he is just another bitter CIA guy who is upset that massive changes have been undertaken to revamp his organization and he resents it. The CIA was neutered during the eight years of the Clinton administration, and it needs fixing. The people in the way of that need to go. All of a sudden you don't trust the CIA?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by J0kerr1 The guy almose seemed to use logic..then the JFK...tin foil hat time. It figures that someone who believes i conpiracies would hate Bush.
o rly "For more than a century, ideolgical extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we weild over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with other around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller
"The war in Iraq is a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times...a new world order can emerge."
--George W. Bush, September 11th, 1999
Bush spoke before Congress on September 11, 1990, delivering a speech which he entitled "Toward a New World Order". Addressing the subject of the Iraq War
Originally posted by jdun1 Fail war my ass. It takes time to rebuild a country. As always liberals doesn’t understand that it takes hard work and determination to be successful. Iraq is going through the same thing as Japan and Germany did after WWII.
To be successful at converting and rebuilding countries? Is that our job as Americans? Is the government serving us or other countries? And don't say protecting us from terrorists because as I stated they can EASILY get into America if they felt like it, so obviously this isn't a real concern with the Bush administration so their must be other motives.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
1. If anyone bothered to look, there were 21 documented reasons to go to war with Iraq. One of those was to remove a dictator. Another ONE, was about finding WMDs. Liberials seem to want to focus on one of the reasons and forget the rest.
2. Liberials like to make America the bad guy.
3. If you look, you can find a range of success that have occured in Iraq. The only failure that libs can find is that people have died.
4. For a birthday party, Iraq would be going bad...but for a war, its going better than almost every war ever waged.
5. Liberials like innocent till proven guilty for everyone but those they hate...aka Bush.
Having spent all that time effort money and blood invading the place, only a true moron would leave without a fight.
Japan just left. Italy's gone. Ukraine. Spains gone, Poland I think too.
The handover has begun. But the only people handing anything over will be the people who can't keep what they have got. No one likes this war. It sucks. But we're not leaving. It took them 20 years to kick us out last time. Hopefully this time we will make it to 50. It would be nice to think we can count on the Americans to stand next to us for that long.
Liberials like to make America the bad guy
And the Christian Right likes to make out that it's in some kind of holy war for Democracy and world love.
When you go to war, you are the bad guy. If that concept is making your balls shrink, go back home.
When you go to war there is a bad guy. I would like to think of the terrorists as the bad guys, and us as the good guys. Kinda root for us to win. Though I guess some of the people (loony left) would call the terrorists the good guys and us the bad guys.
Originally posted by J0kerr1 When you go to war there is a bad guy. I would like to think of the terrorists as the bad guys, and us as the good guys. Kinda root for us to win. Though I guess some of the people (loony left) would call the terrorists the good guys and us the bad guys.
War is perhaps a little more complex than Superman comics. It isn't a case of good vs evil, right vs wrong.
Terrorists are bad guys? Sure, why not? they attempt to achieve their political goals through violence. That makes them bad. Fortunately, that makes us worse. Much worse. They aren't in our league. There isn't any moral high ground here. We sent our people half way round the world by the thousand to go and kill people in the name of greed/freedom/oil/world peace/insert emotive word of choice. Understand evil.
Is there anything wrong with a freedom fighter in Iraq trying to free his country from an Invading army? Of course not. Is it bad? no. Does it make him a "bad guy", not exactly no. The opposite perhaps is more true. Respect your enemy.
Dehumanising your enemies breeds contempt. Dismissing them as "bad guys" is a mistake. Given the nature of the occupation in Iraq, it is vital to the success of our mission that we do not perceive the "enemy" as "bad guys", but instead perceive the Iraqi's as "Iraqi's".
Dehumanising of the enemy is great for troop moral on the battlefield. Off the battlefield it was the primary reason given for the elite SS unit atrocities in WWII. If you don't have balls big enough to embrace evil, go home. War is not about doing good, it is about being the lesser evil.
Terrorists try to get their point across through violence, yes, but they target civilians when they can and beleive in killing themselves to acheive the deaths of their enemies.
By the way, you are a perfect example of those that say we are the bad guys and we are the enemies and we are wrong. You want America to lose because, a. you hate america, b. you hate bush.
Originally posted by J0kerr1 I would also like to point out, again, that there was 21 reasons for war that was given. Spreading Democracy was on that list as one of the reasons.
Who cares about Democracy?
Why would anyone want to spread it?
Exchange the words "democracy" for "the will of Islam" and our leaders rhetoric is identical with Osama Bin Ladens. Having a different structure of government from someone is hardly a realistic excuse to kill them. Do you really think Iraq is a happier place for democracy, that any less people have died or been tortured now that Saddam no longer rules? When Saddam did what we told him to and attacked Iran, dictatorship was cool. Now that he has stopped, it's democracy time.
One thing I dislike above all else is the knowledge that people would be happier if they all lived and thought like us. Could we possibly show any more contempt for others?
I would like to point out that if you looked the people are happy with a Democracy. Look at the turnout of happy votes for the new Iraq government. The terrorists form a small percentage of unhappy people.
Seeing as you hate democracy and think that we should tolerate peole that want to kill us I would be able to say that you are
Look at the billions of happy communists. So what?
People are basically happy by nature.
If you could show me two polls, one taken under Saddam, and another one taken after the election of Iraq's new government, we would have something to discuss further. But you can't. What I can say is that no government rules without the consent of it's people. Not in a democracy and not in a tyranny. A government is not just one evil man, it is an organisational infrastructure of thousands upon thousands of people willing and capable of working together under a common goal. Why would I believe Iraqi people were unhappy under Saddam? Because Blair and Bush say so? Bush is a halfwit and Blair is a compulsive liar. The opposite of what either of those two say is statistically more likely to be correct.
Democracy my arse.
Here's a little insght into Democracy. In 2003 the democratically elected British parliament voted not to invade Iraq.
Terrorists are usually unhappy minorites, yes. But then Iraqi terrorsists have never been any trouble. The only terrorists that have ever attacked us have all been British, and the only terrorists that attacked you were Saudi.
For the record Iraqi people don't want to kill us. We declared war on them.
For the record...Iraq had declared us an enemy..has released statements on how they want to kill us, have shot at our pilots...all before we were there.
As for the communism thing...we have defectors who have said life under communism is bad and freedom is good. We don't have defectors going the other way. Thats more evidence than you have for your agrument.
Iraq - People are returning from refugees to their homes. That would be a sign that things are better. Also, land value is up, currecny is more stable. All good signs. Again, more than you have to say its bad.
So far, all I get from your posts is that America is bad and that you think communism might be better. Good job, I bet you voted for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton. You are that easy to read from this point on.
Originally posted by J0kerr1 For the record...Iraq had declared us an enemy..has released statements on how they want to kill us, have shot at our pilots...all before we were there. As for the communism thing...we have defectors who have said life under communism is bad and freedom is good. We don't have defectors going the other way. Thats more evidence than you have for your agrument. Iraq - People are returning from refugees to their homes. That would be a sign that things are better. Also, land value is up, currecny is more stable. All good signs. Again, more than you have to say its bad. So far, all I get from your posts is that America is bad and that you think communism might be better. Good job, I bet you voted for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton. You are that easy to read from this point on.
When did they shot our planes? Were they flying over kansas?
I fail to see how they shot us before we were there, unless they were here. Did Iraqi invade and I miss it.
WTF are you talking about defectors? Have you even visited a communist country? Have you ever even spoken to anybody who lives in one? Exactly how many "defectors" have you spoken to? You need to go travelling mate, broaden your horizons.
Iraq - People are returning from refugees to their homes. That would be a sign that things are better. Also, land value is up, currecny is more stable. All good signs. Again, more than you have to say its bad.
Also......... people are exploding in the street, shagged by foreigners dogs in prison, airstruck at their weddings, and today, kidnapped and massacred by the 100 on their way home from work. But you say the currency is more stable? really, that's nice.
So far, all I get from your posts is that America is bad and that you think communism might be better. Good job, I bet you voted for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton. You are that easy to read from this point on.
Neither Kerry, Gore, or Clinton stood for election in Great Britain.
P.S. in Communist countries, communism IS better. They don't like democracy and 2 billion of them haven't defected. If you are unable to respect other peoples cultures, don't be surprised if people are unwilling to respect yours.
1. The UN told Iraq not to shoot US planes. That went far.
2. Your argument is people are dying, but you neglect that people are coming back to support the democracy.
3. I don't respect your opinion because your facts are wrong. I give the facts, you say, "People are dying." Thats it.
4. If you were to look through history you would see plenty of communist defectors who have come to the US.
5. I have travelled. I got along with people from Engalnd, Germany, France, Polan, Switzerland, and Ireland. All have respected my opinion. We didn't argue the facts, thats impossible to do. We debated opinions, which are just that..nothing more. I am trying to correct people when they get the facts wrong on this site. It may help them see whats really going on. and by facts..I mean proven things that are real...not speculation.
U.S. warplanes by pure accident managed to fly thousands of miles off course and accidently flew over an Iraqi Anti-aircraft facility. Seems believeable.
Iraq invaded Kuwait so we went to war with them. We then kept up bombing raids over Iraq in 2 no fly zones for the next 10 or so years until in 2003 we invaded. Iraq didn't declare war on the U.S. We weren't defending ourselves when we invaded.
People are dying, these are facts. I realise that you think war is all flowers and home improvements, but it isn't. there was a genocide in Iraq this morning. Fact. But house prices are going up you say?
Plenty of communist defectors?
Like how many? 10, 20 , 50 , 100?
Do you think if 100 people say they are unhappy that 2,000,000,000 others will all agree. If you are basing your understanding of communist society on 100 traitors (none of whom you have actually spoken to), you aren't really expecting a balanced opinion I hope.
So far, you have offered nothing. You have no facts...I have brought m ore to the table than you. So, in conclusion...I win, you lose...you can follow your American hating, democracy hating leaders and beleive that Iraq is a victom and America is the bad guy. You won't change your mind, you can't change the facts, you can't change my mind. Now I see why politics are screwed up..your side hates America and can' see logic. I'm done, God bless you...even if you think he is evil.
I will not see your responce so don't waste your time. Debate is useless. One side has to be proven wrong with American deaths because they don't beleive terrorists are bad. We need a smoking gun, we need to be shot and even then its our fault.
Same old tired argument, you hate America bla bla bla therefore Saddam attacked the U.S. and Iraqi's are all evil terrorists.
You'll need to do better than that mate, that's an old one.
Sorry you never realised that the rest if the world don't want to be American. Sorry that you think everyone hates you.
For the record it's not just American deaths. British Soldiers are paying the price too. Australians and a good many others. But you don't like foreigners, for you foreign is a filthy word. If you have the bollocks, stand next to us and fight. If all you want to do is cry on about what nice guys you are and how much you need to be loved, go home. You've already lost.
ok let's put this streight, don't agrue with the fool, he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with it.
communism is bad, that is a fact, look at russia and bosnia.
the only true fact i know is that alot of american citizins are converting to Islam everyday.
US gov. are the ones who sent Saddam against Kuwait.
US gov. wants to control the middle east, congratulations they're about to succeed, but not for long.
the US troops are killing the sunni faction in Iraq, and are giving the Shiite weapons to kill more sunnis, US troops are bombing Shiite mosques and are blaming sunnis for doing it to stirr up more killings.
US sends more troops to Iraq because they have been losing the war.
US wants to take power away from Iran after giving it to them.
US gov. were the ones who sent Saddam against Iran, and sent Bin-ladin against Russia.
US gov. are causing all of the killing in the middle east, and then show in the media that arabs are killing each others.
US gov. are jews.
US gov. are now turning against the whole world, and when they do it openly and when the world realize, it will be hell, and everyone will send nukes on each others, and population will drop like crazy, and the US will be the reason.
Congratulations for thinking that technology and weapons will bring peace, you are stupid and dumb.
<<Well the war was based on a bunch of lies and had we known the truth then we probably would still have many soldiers alive today....we wouldn't have gone.>> That is your own warped opinion based around your insane hatred for the President. There is no proof G Dub lied. He was relying on the intelligence provided him. The same intelligence the rest of the world had at the time. << So I guess we're on a mission to kill dictators? 1 down.........a lot more to go.>> Nope. We will however take out dictators who are a threat to our country. And you're right... a LOT more to go, although just a few who are more immediate threats.
a<<Tell me where in the Constitution it gives the government power to go into other countries and create/convert them into a democracy or anything else with our tax paying money?>>
The Constitution charges the President with defending the country. He is doing so.
<< So? Some new guy took over, the media/government will hype him, place a giant bounty on him, kill him, Bush's ratings go up, rinse, repeat.>> LOL, once again you show that your politics are put ahead of our country being successful over there. You should be less concerned with G-Dub's poll numbers going up and being more concerned with the future for the Iraqi's and a successful conclusion to the war, whether or not you agree with the war itself. Which was precisely my point about the war in the Balkans... I don't remember anyone hoping for failure so they could 'get' Clinton. There were people who hated Clinton, but they weren't so seditious as to want us to fail over there. There used to be a saying about 'politics stopping at the waters edge'... seems you guys know nothing about that anymore. As far as Zarqawi being replaced, he has been replaced, and the poor bastard who has inherited that dead end job will find himself before Allah just like Zarqawi. As will his successor, and his, and his. I suppose we shouldn't be searching for Bin Laden either, as he will be replaced as well. You should ask yourself what it is that makes you root for the enemies of this country so eagerly.
<<40% of what? The world? You realize we can't kill all the terrorists in the world. We could have spent $290,222,700,000 protecting our borders and sky from all terrorists.>>
40 percent of the terrorists in Iraq according to the military. Obviously we can't kill all the terrorists in the world, but we can kill them where we fight. They are in Iraq facing our soldiers on the battlefield and meeting their fates en masse. Terrorists are brave when facing men women and children of civilian populations, but when they go up against the finest soldiers in the world, they meet their maker. We haven't had an attack since Sept 11th on our soil, mainly because we have taken the fight to them. We cannot defend all of our targets here considering the sheer amount of chemical plants and nuclear plants and other targets of interest. It is simply impossible to do that, so instead we took the fight to them and they are reeling. bin Laden is hiding in a cave somewhere and he has effectively been neutered. his day will come, but until then he is insignificant.
<< You realize CIA gave birth to Al CIAda while fighting the Russians? You think afterwards CIA said good luck and left them on their own? Al Qaeda = CIA.>>
The US Government gave support to the Afghani resistance because at the time we were involved in the Cold War versus the Soviet Union. At the time they were a bigger threat. Obviously we can say in hindsight it was a mistake, just like supportiung Iraq against the Iranians resulted in problems for us. But all that is water under the bridge now. We have to deal with the situation as it exists today. To say that Al Qaeda is CIA is the height of ridiculousness (if thats a word... hehe).
<<At the sametime our borders are begging all terrorists to come in. You don't even have to be that clever because even families are coming and teenagers. Plus other countries are not our responsibility otherwise it would be defined as a "New World Order".>>
You won't get an argument from me about our own borders... they are an open sieve. That actually IS something to criticize G-Dub for. You are right, other countries are not our responsibility... I don't want us to be the poolicemen of the world, but if they're a threat, we should deal with them as such. <<I'm not even close to a liberal democrat. I'm just against lies, and wars that leave us open to attacks even more.>>
You may not be a democrat, but you are clearly a liberal. You are a walking, talking liberal cliche.
<<There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left. Can you show me that documentation?>>
Never said I believed everything the CIA said or did, but its clear that there is a culture of 'CYA' there, ever since 9/11. There are a lot of politicos i there. The same people who sent Joe Wilson to Niger to supposedly 'look for yellowcake'. There is a war between some in the CIA and the admin going on, and its obvious.
<<I'm not even close to a liberal democrat. I'm just against lies, and wars that leave us open to attacks even more.>>
You may not be a democrat, but you are clearly a liberal. You are a walking, talking liberal cliche.
<<There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left. Can you show me that documentation?>>
Never said I believed everything the CIA said or did, but its clear that there is a culture of 'CYA' there, ever since 9/11. There are a lot of politicos i there. The same people who sent Joe Wilson to Niger to supposedly 'look for yellowcake'. There is a war between some in the CIA and the admin going on, and its obvious.
Originally posted by honzolo That is your own warped opinion based around your insane hatred for the President. There is no proof G Dub lied. He was relying on the intelligence provided him. The same intelligence the rest of the world had at the time.
No sane leader in his right mind would tell the truth in the run up to an invasion. Of course he lied, they all lied. Colin Powell is an excellent General. He lied. The key to a successful invasion is disinformation.
40 percent of the terrorists in Iraq according to the military. Obviously we can't kill all the terrorists in the world, but we can kill them where we fight. They are in Iraq facing our soldiers on the battlefield and meeting their fates en masse. This is not called terrorism, this is called soldiering. Terrorists are not facing U.S. soldiers in Iraq en masse. Terrorists are not facing U.S. soldiers anywhere at all. Terrorists attack civilians, not soldiers. Terrorists are fought by intelligence services, not militaries. The war on Terror and the War in Iraq are connected by America's rage only. Iraq is not now nor ever has been any threat to America. We haven't had an attack since Sept 11th on our soil, mainly because we have taken the fight to them Mainly because you upgraded your pathetic airport security in line with the rest of the worlds. Mainly because you have no significant resident islamic population, mainly because you live on the otherside of the world from any significant islamic population. All your allies however, have taken a shafting for supporting the "fight against Islam". You haven't so much "taken the war to your enemies", as brought it to your friends.
"I don't want us to be the poolicemen of the world, but if they're a threat, we should deal with them as such"
Ok now I am scared, so all it needs these days is to feel threatend and then you are allowed to start a war? Well, if someone looks at me strange do I have the right to kill him? If someone says "I'll kill you" do I have the right to kill him first (just for telling me that he wants to kill me)? So which is the next country on your list? What's after the middle east and asia? Europe?
USA never started a war for human rights nor for democracy, they only start wars for selfish reasons. Which is ok but stop trying to sell your wars as "we only want to spread democracy and freedom" that's bs. The war in Iraq only became a war for democracy after they couldn't find any real WMDs.
Many innocent people died in iraq and lots of good soldiers (both sides). I would never blame the soldiers, they just serve their country. But I do blame the goverment, the people that sit in front of their desks and order death.
Comments
LOL, to say the war has failed is just ridiculous. Just because you want it to, doesn't make it so. Saddam will never be around to threaten the region, a new government has been formed, Zarqawi is dead, over 40 percent of the terrorists have been killed, we have captured/killed hundreds since Zarqawi met his fate, we've just caught two more senior officials of AlQaeda and are continuing to dismantle their power structure whilst sending their followers to meet Allah. Zarqawi's documentation show what a bad situation the insurgency is in. Our military is carrying out an incredibly successful campaign against them while Iraqi forces are growing more and more able to control their country on their own. Things are falling into place.
I understand the last couple weeks have been bad for you liberal democrats with all the successes over there. So I guess you guys are reduced to celebrating the 2500th death. That's really all you have to hold on to anymore. Pathetic.
Bush had the same intelligence the Clinton administration used to justify bombing Iraq in 1998, and you know it as well as I. We know Hussein did have WMD's and has used them in the past. Had he not kicked out the inspectors none of this would have happened. Had he not been trying to shoot down our aircraft over the no fly zones he agreed to in the ceasefire agreement from the first Gulf War, this wouldn't have happened. There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left.
As far as this CIA guy you keep touting, he is just another bitter CIA guy who is upset that massive changes have been undertaken to revamp his organization and he resents it. The CIA was neutered during the eight years of the Clinton administration, and it needs fixing. The people in the way of that need to go.
Oh man, are you really this naive to believe the war was about removing a dictator from power ? You need to do some serious reading on how the Rockefeller led oil cartel works. Try Diplomacy by Deception by Dr. John Coleman for starters.
i hope all those soldiers return home safe.
LOL, to say the war has failed is just ridiculous. Just because you want it to, doesn't make it so.
Well the war was based on a bunch of lies and had we known the truth then we probably would still have many soldiers alive today....we wouldn't have gone.
Saddam will never be around to threaten the region,
So I guess we're on a mission to kill dictators? 1 down.........a lot more to go.
a new government has been formed,
Tell me where in the Constitution it gives the government power to go into other countries and create/convert them into a democracy or anything else with our tax paying money?
Zarqawi is dead,
So? Some new guy took over, the media/government will hype him, place a giant bounty on him, kill him, Bush's ratings go up, rinse, repeat.
over 40 percent of the terrorists have been killed,
40% of what? The world? You realize we can't kill all the terrorists in the world. We could have spent $290,222,700,000 protecting our borders and sky from all terrorists.
we have captured/killed hundreds since Zarqawi met his fate, we've just caught two more senior officials of AlQaeda and are continuing to dismantle their power structure whilst sending their followers to meet Allah.
You realize CIA gave birth to Al CIAda while fighting the Russians? You think afterwards CIA said good luck and left them on their own? Al Qaeda = CIA.
Zarqawi's documentation show what a bad situation the insurgency is in.
Our military is carrying out an incredibly successful campaign against them while Iraqi forces are growing more and more able to control their country on their own. Things are falling into place.
At the sametime our borders are begging all terrorists to come in. You don't even have to be that clever because even families are coming and teenagers. Plus other countries are not our responsibility otherwise it would be defined as a "New World Order".
I understand the last couple weeks have been bad for you liberal democrats with all the successes over there. So I guess you guys are reduced to celebrating the 2500th death. That's really all you have to hold on to anymore. Pathetic.
I'm not even close to a liberal democrat. I'm just against lies, and wars that leave us open to attacks even more.
Bush had the same intelligence the Clinton administration used to justify bombing Iraq in 1998, and you know it as well as I. We know Hussein did have WMD's and has used them in the past. Had he not kicked out the inspectors none of this would have happened. Had he not been trying to shoot down our aircraft over the no fly zones he agreed to in the ceasefire agreement from the first Gulf War, this wouldn't have happened. There has been plenty of documentation found since Operation Iraqi Freedom began showing that Husseins intent was to reconstitute his WMD program after the UN inspectors left.
Can you show me that documentation?
As far as this CIA guy you keep touting, he is just another bitter CIA guy who is upset that massive changes have been undertaken to revamp his organization and he resents it. The CIA was neutered during the eight years of the Clinton administration, and it needs fixing. The people in the way of that need to go.
All of a sudden you don't trust the CIA?
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack
the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we weild
over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we
are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the
United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists'
and of conspiring with other around the world to build a more
integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you
will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." David Rockefeller
http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/jfk_secret_society_speech.htm o rly?
o rly?
"The war in Iraq is a rare opportunity to move toward an historic
period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times...a new world order
can emerge."
--George W. Bush, September 11th, 1999
Bush spoke before Congress on September 11, 1990, delivering a speech
which he entitled "Toward a New World Order". Addressing the subject of
the Iraq War
O RLY???
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
1. If anyone bothered to look, there were 21 documented reasons to go to war with Iraq. One of those was to remove a dictator. Another ONE, was about finding WMDs. Liberials seem to want to focus on one of the reasons and forget the rest.
2. Liberials like to make America the bad guy.
3. If you look, you can find a range of success that have occured in Iraq. The only failure that libs can find is that people have died.
4. For a birthday party, Iraq would be going bad...but for a war, its going better than almost every war ever waged.
5. Liberials like innocent till proven guilty for everyone but those they hate...aka Bush.
Having spent all that time effort money and blood invading the place, only a true moron would leave without a fight.
Japan just left. Italy's gone. Ukraine. Spains gone, Poland I think too.
The handover has begun. But the only people handing anything over will be the people who can't keep what they have got. No one likes this war. It sucks. But we're not leaving. It took them 20 years to kick us out last time. Hopefully this time we will make it to 50. It would be nice to think we can count on the Americans to stand next to us for that long.
Liberials like to make America the bad guy
And the Christian Right likes to make out that it's in some kind of holy war for Democracy and world love.
When you go to war, you are the bad guy. If that concept is making your balls shrink, go back home.
War is perhaps a little more complex than Superman comics. It isn't a case of good vs evil, right vs wrong.
Terrorists are bad guys? Sure, why not? they attempt to achieve their political goals through violence. That makes them bad. Fortunately, that makes us worse. Much worse. They aren't in our league. There isn't any moral high ground here. We sent our people half way round the world by the thousand to go and kill people in the name of greed/freedom/oil/world peace/insert emotive word of choice. Understand evil.
Is there anything wrong with a freedom fighter in Iraq trying to free his country from an Invading army? Of course not. Is it bad? no. Does it make him a "bad guy", not exactly no. The opposite perhaps is more true. Respect your enemy.
Dehumanising your enemies breeds contempt. Dismissing them as "bad guys" is a mistake. Given the nature of the occupation in Iraq, it is vital to the success of our mission that we do not perceive the "enemy" as "bad guys", but instead perceive the Iraqi's as "Iraqi's".
Dehumanising of the enemy is great for troop moral on the battlefield. Off the battlefield it was the primary reason given for the elite SS unit atrocities in WWII. If you don't have balls big enough to embrace evil, go home. War is not about doing good, it is about being the lesser evil.
Terrorists try to get their point across through violence, yes, but they target civilians when they can and beleive in killing themselves to acheive the deaths of their enemies.
By the way, you are a perfect example of those that say we are the bad guys and we are the enemies and we are wrong. You want America to lose because, a. you hate america, b. you hate bush.
Who cares about Democracy?
Why would anyone want to spread it?
Exchange the words "democracy" for "the will of Islam" and our leaders rhetoric is identical with Osama Bin Ladens. Having a different structure of government from someone is hardly a realistic excuse to kill them. Do you really think Iraq is a happier place for democracy, that any less people have died or been tortured now that Saddam no longer rules? When Saddam did what we told him to and attacked Iran, dictatorship was cool. Now that he has stopped, it's democracy time.
One thing I dislike above all else is the knowledge that people would be happier if they all lived and thought like us. Could we possibly show any more contempt for others?
I would like to point out that if you looked the people are happy with a Democracy. Look at the turnout of happy votes for the new Iraq government. The terrorists form a small percentage of unhappy people.
Seeing as you hate democracy and think that we should tolerate peole that want to kill us I would be able to say that you are
Look at the billions of happy communists. So what?
People are basically happy by nature.
If you could show me two polls, one taken under Saddam, and another one taken after the election of Iraq's new government, we would have something to discuss further. But you can't. What I can say is that no government rules without the consent of it's people. Not in a democracy and not in a tyranny. A government is not just one evil man, it is an organisational infrastructure of thousands upon thousands of people willing and capable of working together under a common goal. Why would I believe Iraqi people were unhappy under Saddam? Because Blair and Bush say so? Bush is a halfwit and Blair is a compulsive liar. The opposite of what either of those two say is statistically more likely to be correct.
Democracy my arse.
Here's a little insght into Democracy. In 2003 the democratically elected British parliament voted not to invade Iraq.
Terrorists are usually unhappy minorites, yes. But then Iraqi terrorsists have never been any trouble. The only terrorists that have ever attacked us have all been British, and the only terrorists that attacked you were Saudi.
For the record Iraqi people don't want to kill us. We declared war on them.
For the record...Iraq had declared us an enemy..has released statements on how they want to kill us, have shot at our pilots...all before we were there.
As for the communism thing...we have defectors who have said life under communism is bad and freedom is good. We don't have defectors going the other way. Thats more evidence than you have for your agrument.
Iraq - People are returning from refugees to their homes. That would be a sign that things are better. Also, land value is up, currecny is more stable. All good signs. Again, more than you have to say its bad.
So far, all I get from your posts is that America is bad and that you think communism might be better. Good job, I bet you voted for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton. You are that easy to read from this point on.
When did they shot our planes? Were they flying over kansas?
I fail to see how they shot us before we were there, unless they were here. Did Iraqi invade and I miss it.
WTF are you talking about defectors? Have you even visited a communist country? Have you ever even spoken to anybody who lives in one? Exactly how many "defectors" have you spoken to? You need to go travelling mate, broaden your horizons.
Iraq - People are returning from refugees to their homes. That would be a sign that things are better. Also, land value is up, currecny is more stable. All good signs. Again, more than you have to say its bad.
Also......... people are exploding in the street, shagged by foreigners dogs in prison, airstruck at their weddings, and today, kidnapped and massacred by the 100 on their way home from work. But you say the currency is more stable? really, that's nice.
So far, all I get from your posts is that America is bad and that you think communism might be better. Good job, I bet you voted for Kerry, Gore, and Clinton. You are that easy to read from this point on.
Neither Kerry, Gore, or Clinton stood for election in Great Britain.
P.S. in Communist countries, communism IS better. They don't like democracy and 2 billion of them haven't defected. If you are unable to respect other peoples cultures, don't be surprised if people are unwilling to respect yours.
1. The UN told Iraq not to shoot US planes. That went far.
2. Your argument is people are dying, but you neglect that people are coming back to support the democracy.
3. I don't respect your opinion because your facts are wrong. I give the facts, you say, "People are dying." Thats it.
4. If you were to look through history you would see plenty of communist defectors who have come to the US.
5. I have travelled. I got along with people from Engalnd, Germany, France, Polan, Switzerland, and Ireland. All have respected my opinion. We didn't argue the facts, thats impossible to do. We debated opinions, which are just that..nothing more. I am trying to correct people when they get the facts wrong on this site. It may help them see whats really going on. and by facts..I mean proven things that are real...not speculation.
Where were the U.S. planes?
In Iraq.
Were they civilian planes?
No.
U.S. warplanes by pure accident managed to fly thousands of miles off course and accidently flew over an Iraqi Anti-aircraft facility. Seems believeable.
Iraq invaded Kuwait so we went to war with them. We then kept up bombing raids over Iraq in 2 no fly zones for the next 10 or so years until in 2003 we invaded. Iraq didn't declare war on the U.S. We weren't defending ourselves when we invaded.
People are dying, these are facts. I realise that you think war is all flowers and home improvements, but it isn't. there was a genocide in Iraq this morning. Fact. But house prices are going up you say?
Plenty of communist defectors?
Like how many? 10, 20 , 50 , 100?
Do you think if 100 people say they are unhappy that 2,000,000,000 others will all agree. If you are basing your understanding of communist society on 100 traitors (none of whom you have actually spoken to), you aren't really expecting a balanced opinion I hope.
So far, you have offered nothing. You have no facts...I have brought m ore to the table than you. So, in conclusion...I win, you lose...you can follow your American hating, democracy hating leaders and beleive that Iraq is a victom and America is the bad guy. You won't change your mind, you can't change the facts, you can't change my mind. Now I see why politics are screwed up..your side hates America and can' see logic. I'm done, God bless you...even if you think he is evil.
I will not see your responce so don't waste your time. Debate is useless. One side has to be proven wrong with American deaths because they don't beleive terrorists are bad. We need a smoking gun, we need to be shot and even then its our fault.
Same old tired argument, you hate America bla bla bla therefore Saddam attacked the U.S. and Iraqi's are all evil terrorists.
You'll need to do better than that mate, that's an old one.
Sorry you never realised that the rest if the world don't want to be American. Sorry that you think everyone hates you.
For the record it's not just American deaths. British Soldiers are paying the price too. Australians and a good many others. But you don't like foreigners, for you foreign is a filthy word. If you have the bollocks, stand next to us and fight. If all you want to do is cry on about what nice guys you are and how much you need to be loved, go home. You've already lost.
ok let's put this streight, don't agrue with the fool, he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with it.
communism is bad, that is a fact, look at russia and bosnia.
the only true fact i know is that alot of american citizins are converting to Islam everyday.
US gov. are the ones who sent Saddam against Kuwait.
US gov. wants to control the middle east, congratulations they're about to succeed, but not for long.
the US troops are killing the sunni faction in Iraq, and are giving the Shiite weapons to kill more sunnis, US troops are bombing Shiite mosques and are blaming sunnis for doing it to stirr up more killings.
US sends more troops to Iraq because they have been losing the war.
US wants to take power away from Iran after giving it to them.
US gov. were the ones who sent Saddam against Iran, and sent Bin-ladin against Russia.
US gov. are causing all of the killing in the middle east, and then show in the media that arabs are killing each others.
US gov. are jews.
US gov. are now turning against the whole world, and when they do it openly and when the world realize, it will be hell, and everyone will send nukes on each others, and population will drop like crazy, and the US will be the reason.
Congratulations for thinking that technology and weapons will bring peace, you are stupid and dumb.
"I don't want us to be the poolicemen of the world, but if they're a threat, we should deal with them as such"
Ok now I am scared, so all it needs these days is to feel threatend and then you are allowed to start a war?
Well, if someone looks at me strange do I have the right to kill him? If someone says "I'll kill you" do I have the right to kill him first (just for telling me that he wants to kill me)?
So which is the next country on your list? What's after the middle east and asia? Europe?
USA never started a war for human rights nor for democracy, they only start wars for selfish reasons. Which is ok but stop trying to sell your wars as "we only want to spread democracy and freedom" that's bs. The war in Iraq only became a war for democracy after they couldn't find any real WMDs.
Many innocent people died in iraq and lots of good soldiers (both sides). I would never blame the soldiers, they just serve their country. But I do blame the goverment, the people that sit in front of their desks and order death.