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My grief with City of Heroes (not a flame)
After resubbing this game for time, I had some great fun. Missions, groups, it was all refreshing under the new theme, and combat was very fast paced and exciting for the genre. Very freshing, very fun. But after roughly a week of this, I woke up one morning and thought to myself..."I want to play CoH! But...I don't want to grind mobs or do missions. What else can I do?" The answer? Nothing. There was absolutely nothing I could do to further my beloved toon outside of what I'd been doing all week. In other popular MMORPGs you generally see this taken up as crafting, fishing, or whatever. CoH had none of these, rightfully so, but the devs seem to of forgotten to replace that much-needed content with something more in line with their theme.
I can't say there's a real point to this thread, I just wanted to voice my opinion! I respect and understand why you, the reader, might enjoy City of Heroes, but for us oldschool Ultima Online players, I'll look elsewhere.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=5761451&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=1
I posted a similar topic in the official City of Heroes forum, for you subscribers.
Comments
Did you get past level 25?
I find that the game really slows to a boring pace at this point. Not only is it harder to get levels at this point, but you also get less advancement per level because of the enhancement nerfs they introduced with Issue 6. Just can't see myself playing this again until they make the mid-to-high level game less of a grind.
Coh/Cov has never promoted itself as a crafting game. It has always promoted itself as a Hero/VIllian Combat game and that is what it is and for the genre it does that well. Yes you can build a base and do things with the salvage you get, but that is not crafting.
As for gind I dont know of a MMO that doesn't have that and "The Grind" is an age old gripe with some merit but mostly come from those that want to lvl quick and hard and end up missing the point of the travel they have take to get to the point they are at (and Yes I have many Heros'VIllians and Yes many above 25 with little to no effort and each experance was different) but I digress.
Back to point this is a Hero/Villian combat game not a crafting game and I have noticed that crafting gets used to side track the person playing to break up the combat casue they know that if all there were was just missions that threads like this would come up. So maybe Cryptic will learn and maybe someday add them in I have noticed new universitys that have poped up so maybe they will be put to use at some point.
WHom known
Flame on GHost Rider Flame on
Target Aquired
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well in CoH/CoV it isn't just that the levels are grindy and take a long time to acheive after level 25, but that they aren't worth much because the enhancement nerfs in Issue 6 make getting enhancements meaningless as often as they are worthwhile. Add to this the necessity of getting powers that are uninteresting to get to useful powers like Stamina and you have a lot of levels that are really boring to get.
At least in fantasy MMOs you also get loot that is interesting and fun. In CoH/CoV there is not "best" loot and, in fact, the enhancement nerfs make it so that no matter what you'll have every important stat on most powers at the soft cap for enhancement. . . which makes everyone very cookie cutter. Just using accuracy and damage was cookie-cutter too, but at least character advancement wasn't disappointing before they added the enhancement nerfs.
This used to be my 2nd MMO that I always played between other games. Now I won't play it again until they remove ED and/or make levels after level 25 less of a boring grind. If levels mean half as much as they did before then they should only take half as long to acheive. Otherwise you slow down character advancement.
And don't give me a bunch of crap about focusing on the journey. I've DONE the journey already with my mains on CoV and CoH. Now I just want to build different builds for PvP and for fun. Repeating old content that honestly isn't any different fundamentally than what I've been doing for YEARS in CoH doesn't cut it for me.
Well,
CoH has 0 non-combat content, to make it nice on this aspect would require quite a LOT of work. Such work should be put on other aspects IMO, the game could really use it...especially if it can stop the never-ending nerfing!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
"uo and eve don't have it."
UO has grinding. EVE has mining. ;S
Some non-combat that I can think of:
Costume design - Give your hero/villian a new look!
Badge Hunting - Do you have all the exploration badges?
Costume contest - start one up or join one
Base design - only downside is you have to be in an active SG. Doesn't help to be a SG of one
I enjoyed CoX when I played it. I am still in contact with my SG although I don't have a subscription anymore. May activate it again. Currently burned out of MMO's. Just killing time till BF2142 and Spore.
Hope these suggestions help if your looking for something to do that's non-combat related.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Eve's grind is really tedious. Agent missions? fly on autopilot for 30 minutes pick up 12 rocks, fly back for 30 minutes. Repeat. I spent most of the time playing Civilisation on another PC.
I much prefered COH, I found myself grinding at about lvl 45 and also for badges. But mostly it is was fluid enough for me, with enough mission arcs to keep me with stuff to do. I all enjoyed the different schools of enemy.
Here is my out look on CoH and CoV:
I have been playing CoH since it came out. I would periodically leave and come back but over al i played it alot. It does not hav the greatest fighting, best gameplay, or best groups, but overall it is just a fun game. I know that it gets repetetive but if you get past that you can have alot of fun. The most important thing i found is that you need friends. If you have friends in a game like this it makes it really fun. When I played a bunch of my friends, I knew in rl, started when I did, so we had alot of fun. Over time it ended up to only be me and 1 other firend. But still qith only this single friend I played for another 3 months. Also over time you meet people in the game and it rocks. My advise to you is that if you still have any intreast in playing Coh and Cov is to get a bunch of friends to sign up with you. Make a guild and start leveling. Call them on the phone talk on xfire w/e just get a bunch of ppl you know to oplay with you and it makes the game so much better.
If that doesnt work for you it is always fun to get a bunch of travel powers and mess around on the test server I found that was fun when I was waiting for something to do.
Anways I would say try it again with some freinds and see how that goes.
Peace Out.
~*(MMOs)*~
ATD3, ACEO, AoC, AO, AC, CO, COH, COV, DAC, DR, DDO, EO, EVE, EQ, EQ2, Flyff, GW, HG:L, HO, KO, L2, LotRO, MS, MUo, PotBS, PS, RagO, RF, ROSEo, Ryzom, SB, SWG, TLA, TMO, V:SoH, WO:AoR, WOW
What can a hero do except fighting?..
u don't see Superman fishing..
u don't see Captain America crafting..
and u don't see Cyclops cooking..
however,housing system would be interesting,if it is introduced..
Or any idea?
Any mmorpg that offers fighting, has its main focus on fighting.
Crafting in and of itself is only minorly enjoyable... at first. Then it becomes tedious, gathering XX mats to click some buttons XX times, to get your skill high enough to craft XX, then at the max level... you get better items from fighting anyway.
The problem is theres NOTHING to super heroes/villains besides fighting, and bases, when you seen "hero" it should have been a give away.
You can already make bases, and craft base items, albeit over a long period of time.
Super heroes never stop to create junk over and over untill they get good enough to create gear. In their origin stories sure, but after that the hero is set for life.
Honestly theres just nothing they could add to suit the people looking for item advancement. And frankly there shouldn't be ever.
Coh/cov offers the hands down BEST combat out there, the best character customization, the best base/lair customization(not counting sims online... if it has that ionno i've never played it...)
Frankly thats enough for me to enjoy it.
"honestly in every mmorpg on the market fighting is the main purpose of
the game. You craft to get stronger, you fish to eat/cook to make heal
yourself after fights.
Any mmorpg that offers fighting, has its main focus on fighting.
Crafting
in and of itself is only minorly enjoyable... at first. Then it
becomes tedious, gathering XX mats to click some buttons XX times, to
get your skill high enough to craft XX, then at the max level... you
get better items from fighting anyway."
You've obviously never played Ultima Online or anything based from it or its style of MMORPG. I feel bad for you.
"The problem is theres
NOTHING to super heroes/villains besides fighting, and bases, when you
seen "hero" it should have been a give away.
Super
heroes never stop to create junk over and over untill they get good
enough to create gear. In their origin stories sure, but after that
the hero is set for life...
Honestly theres just nothing they
could add to suit the people looking for item advancement. And frankly
there shouldn't be ever.
"We couldn't think of anything!" is the lamest excuse there is.
This is just a lack of creativity on the developer's part. CoH doesn't need "crafting", it needs non-combat content, which could of been presented in countless forms. Laziness? Unoriginality? I don't know. You're stuck inside the box, And this attitude is why City of Heroes will never be more than it is, and why it will never be the wild success it could have been. You need to realize that these players aren't specifically asking for items or crafting or fishing, they just want something else to do besides combat. Like I said, this could have been in countless other forms.
"Coh/cov offers the hands down BEST
combat out there, the best character customization, the best base/lair
customization(not counting sims online... if it has that ionno i've
never played it...)
Frankly thats enough for me to enjoy it."
And I'm happy for you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
EVE is the anti-CoX. Slow paced travel and cash grinding.
Gate jumping is mind numblingly dull. You can talk all you want about insta jump bookmarks. If a game requires me to get 600 bookmarks from other playesrs in order for travel from point a to point b then in my opinion its a poor design. That game was designed around making travel an enormous time sync. The travel in that game is bar none the worst I have ever experienced in an MMO. Nothing even can come close. I don't have the kind of time that the EVE designers apparently wanted players to spend creating these bookmarks to simply move around the game world.
The grind in that game revolves around cash. Grind rocks for cash,grind agent missions for cash,run trade routes for cash. Grinding rocks requires you to look at the same rock for hours on end. Running Agent missions is slightly better but not by much. Your agent will sometimes send you 6 or 7 gates away which means (you guessed it - travle grind). Trade routes just means you will forever be floating toward a jump gate or a station.
"But the PvP rocks!!" blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I don't have the kind of time a corp demands in order to simply play the game and not have it be anything other than 1000% boring. I've tried EVE twice. Both times for about 2 months. I remember I wanted to train some skill to level 5 and it told me it would take something like 4 weeks of real life time in order to get the skill. That's just crazy. Who came up with that crazy system. I joined a corp both times I played that game and it didn't make it any better. The corps usually went out and grinded on rocks as a team. So you are still grinding a patch of rocks, you just get to chat while you do it. I just never understood what people find so amazing about that snoozefest. I've read about these epic PvP encounters in EVE and I believe that would be fun, but for the other 99.9% of the time the game revolves around grinding isk to improve your character.
Enough about EVE.
In response to some others on this thread, CoX is great at what it does. Its about group based combat. Peter Parker may have taken pictures but he only did that in the one frame before he jumped into his spider man gear. Do you really want the devs to take time to put in this kind of content? Clark Kent may have gone fishing but would you have read a whole comic book about Clark's fishing adventures? Besides, crafting is done in so many other games, CoX doesn't need or want it. People that play that game generally don't want to spend time crafting or feel like they need to spend time crafting in order to complete. I'm all for giving end game characters ways to improve their character but not via crafting for a hero/villain. It just doesn't make sense. A vast majority of CoX players don't want that kind of content.
Enhancement Diversification was put into place so that the dev's can put in post 50 content to make your player stronger without taking already overpowered characters over and beyond what the game can handle and still make it a challenge. Besides, Pre-ED the game was waaay to easy. At least now people have a reason to want to group even though its not necessary. I remember taking my fire controller to the Rikti Crash Site pre-ED and pre pet nerf and just decimating the spawns there solo without any chance of death. I had no reason to seek out a team. That was fun for a while but it got boring. Even when I got into teams, there was no point for the other players to even be there. I could take on an 8 man spawn solo with no chance of death with the difficulty setting set to its highest level.
My brother had a character that was on a semi permanent AFK farming team. A single stone tanker would get in a particular mission where the Mob's respawned. He would fill out the team and everyone would go AFK while he turned on his mud pots. He would draw the aggro and since he had no chance of death due to 6 slotted (or whatever it took to hit the cap) shields the team would rake in free exp. Easy leveling for sure but not exactly heroic. There was no challenge. ED made the game challenging again. You may not like it but, it does make the game revolve around teams again which makes it ultimately more fun for most people.
Umm..Yes UO had a grind, just because UO is skill based does not mean it doesn't have a grind...
Let's be honest, costume design is very nice, but it is not something that keep the average player occupied in a MMO, yes I spend a few hours in this, but after that, I am done.
Badge hunting: Most of the badges are combat oriented, the exploration badges are about 5-10 per zone, make the math you see this take a few hours unless you are the type of player to actually enjoy searching a needle in a haysack.
Costume contest are: player driven. Player driven actions, like racing with a gnome level 1 accross all Norrath with no gear, trying to win the race and not dying...this is player driven, nobody will ever say that the gnomes level 1 racing accross Norrath was a brilliant thing about the game, it is fun, but players can find activities!
Base Design...LOL, that is your worst, you know how much combat it requires to have the prestige necessary to accomplish some decent base design? A monster give you maybe 25 points of prestige, and items cost in millions...very combat oriented.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well in CoH/CoV it isn't just that the levels are grindy and take a long time to acheive after level 25, but that they aren't worth much because the enhancement nerfs in Issue 6 make getting enhancements meaningless as often as they are worthwhile. Add to this the necessity of getting powers that are uninteresting to get to useful powers like Stamina and you have a lot of levels that are really boring to get.
At least in fantasy MMOs you also get loot that is interesting and fun. In CoH/CoV there is not "best" loot and, in fact, the enhancement nerfs make it so that no matter what you'll have every important stat on most powers at the soft cap for enhancement. . . which makes everyone very cookie cutter. Just using accuracy and damage was cookie-cutter too, but at least character advancement wasn't disappointing before they added the enhancement nerfs.
This used to be my 2nd MMO that I always played between other games. Now I won't play it again until they remove ED and/or make levels after level 25 less of a boring grind. If levels mean half as much as they did before then they should only take half as long to acheive. Otherwise you slow down character advancement.
And don't give me a bunch of crap about focusing on the journey. I've DONE the journey already with my mains on CoV and CoH. Now I just want to build different builds for PvP and for fun. Repeating old content that honestly isn't any different fundamentally than what I've been doing for YEARS in CoH doesn't cut it for me.
The I6 update that you keep on falling back on only effect those that 6 sloted powers mainly for damage (which you can still do, you just do not get the full effect you got before which was an unballancing effect)
Since I never 6 slotted for any power it didnt effect me at all and was not a nerf but a way to control power players.
And once again I have had no issue from lvl 20-30 have not had to much of a slow down in advancment. SO maybe it's is more your play style than anythings elce. Give is is not as rapid as from lvl 1-15 or 15-20 but then again I dont think it should be.
And as for enhancment being usless and not worth have your just compleatly wronge there. The enhansment are making or breaking the powers in there use and there is a visable effect in how they work (if you pay attention)
And as far as the powers being uninteresting and boaring that would be to you.
And once again since this is not a WoW/DDO or a fantasy game of that Genre it is not a fair comparison for there are far more things that fit into and can be fit into that kind of setting as oposed to a super hero/villian combat game.
And jsut like any game if it is making yiou unhappy or you dont enjoy playing, then don't, but that doesnt give you the right to ruin it for others that do.
Yes we are all entitled to our view point and opinion but sometimes we just need to keep them to ourself if it is going to ruin the fun of other folks that are not hurting or forceing it on anyone elce.
And yes I have been playing COH since closed beta and cov since cloeed beta and I play WoW as well.
Flame on Ghost Rider Flame on
Target Aquired
You know. I'm not making these points to discourage people from playing the game. They are actually suggestions on how to make it fun again.
So your response is that character advancement does not feel slow to you since the enhancement nerfs because you never slotted your powers for maximum damage. My guess is you play as a controller or a defender primarily? Or maybe you don't get characters into the endgame and thus don't really know whether or not the game is a grind after level 25?
In any case, your anecdote isn't convincing. I know tons of people who have played and left the game because I led a large multi-gaming group's SG in CoH/CoV. At one point we had 5 SGs (3 of them completely filled with people's mains and 2 with alts). Since I still play other MMOs with the large multi-gaming group, we often talk about why we left certain games - especially when a new Issue comes out and some of us consider returning.
The level grind and the Issue 6 enhancement nerfs are the two most common things that are mentioned. That huge SG that we had before has dwindled down to a core group of players who seem to enjoy SG raids, though they were upset that they weren't working properly. I'll have to find out if Items of Power ever got working and/or if they can now actually plan SG raids FOR Items of Power instead of just setting up scrimmages. They also like the PvP zones, though they all play as Spines stalkers now. That seems pretty boring to me, to simply go around launching stealth attacks over and over and over, but they seem to get a kick out of it.
Originally posted by Bladin
honestly in every mmorpg on the market fighting is the main purpose of the game. You craft to get stronger, you fish to eat/cook to make heal yourself after fights. Any mmorpg that offers fighting, has its main focus on fighting.Crafting in and of itself is only minorly enjoyable... at first. Then it becomes tedious, gathering XX mats to click some buttons XX times, to get your skill high enough to craft XX, then at the max level... you get better items from fighting anyway.The problem is theres NOTHING to super heroes/villains besides fighting, and bases, when you seen "hero" it should have been a give away.You can already make bases, and craft base items, albeit over a long period of time.Super heroes never stop to create junk over and over untill they get good enough to create gear. In their origin stories sure, but after that the hero is set for life.Honestly theres just nothing they could add to suit the people looking for item advancement. And frankly there shouldn't be ever.Coh/cov offers the hands down BEST combat out there, the best character customization, the best base/lair customization(not counting sims online... if it has that ionno i've never played it...) Frankly thats enough for me to enjoy it.
-------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you consider heroes have to create junk to get good gear then no, I haven't read hardly any stories like that but if you take the Fantastic Four or Batman and even Spiderman, there is a precedence where heroes create objects to overcome villains. But even junk created by a superhero has had a purpose in the past such as Mr. Fantastic creating a mockup of the Ultimate Nullifier to fool Galactus into leaving the earth alone. There is Spider-Man creating stronger web fluid to handle Doc Ock, creating radio transmitters attuned to his Spider sense. Batman, a master of alchemy, will create antidotes to Poison Ivy's plants, Iron Man is constantly redesigning his main suit and making special purpose suits(space, underwater, Hulkbuster armor, stealth), you can even consider Thor as 'creating' things with his hammer beyond just its smashing and flying ability(whirlwinds, time vortexes, etc) if you have watched how his powers have expanded over the years, etc.
Plenty of things were created by heroes well after their origin that were not junk. You can't call the Spider-Mobile of the 70s age SpiderMan, junk. How dare you....:)
So overall, I disagree that CoX has everything it needs as combat is not everything. Yes, I loved the battles I read in comics but I later came to realize why I liked certain stories more than others which I came to find out it was the rich background that MADE combat more exciting. At the very least they need to spice up the storytelling and/or have the outcomes of our battles really mean something like zones changing appearance such as in RV.
Heroes don't fish, mine or bake cakes.
So at the moment, CoX is limited to being a combat MMO.
Don't get me wrong, it has one of the best combat systems but it lacks non-combat options.
This combined with the absence of loot, makes it seem more repetitive than other MMOs.
In my opinion, I find that other MMOs have the same grind and recycling of enemies/maps, but they can offer other interests, like crafting and loot.
Maybe what CoX needs are non-combat skills...
Interrogation, Lockpicking, Computers, Detective work etc.
It's been mentioned before by the devs but I think they've abandoned it.
They did however mention that they're working on a 'Legends' system.
And there's apparently going to be some end-game "fat loot" for level 50s in Issue 8, which may actually be the Legends system.
Boomtown Interview
Let's be honest, costume design is very nice, but it is not something that keep the average player occupied in a MMO, yes I spend a few hours in this, but after that, I am done.
Badge hunting: Most of the badges are combat oriented, the exploration badges are about 5-10 per zone, make the math you see this take a few hours unless you are the type of player to actually enjoy searching a needle in a haysack.
Costume contest are: player driven. Player driven actions, like racing with a gnome level 1 accross all Norrath with no gear, trying to win the race and not dying...this is player driven, nobody will ever say that the gnomes level 1 racing accross Norrath was a brilliant thing about the game, it is fun, but players can find activities!
Base Design...LOL, that is your worst, you know how much combat it requires to have the prestige necessary to accomplish some decent base design? A monster give you maybe 25 points of prestige, and items cost in millions...very combat oriented.
I was just trying to make a point, the OP stated that there is nothing but combat. I offered alternatives that are non-combat. Whether it's player driven or in game feature, it's out there.
Most of the non-combat that people look for just takes an hour or so in other MMO's, Recreating your character at the store can take up that hour. Have an extra costume slot, use it...make a macro so that when your character does soemthing, it triggers the costume change.
Badge hunting that are exploration can take up an hour where you don't want to fight. Finished a mission in Steel Canyon? Look for those badges, see if a building is on fire and put it out
Even though costume contests are player driven, it's still an option to something that is not combat related.
Base design - I agree a bad example due to the fact that you have to have a very active SG to get the prestige to build the base. But if you are part of a SG that communicates and is cool with giving your character a room to play with, you can add to the look of the base. adding a lamp isn't that expensive or a table. I'm looking more at the asthetic look vs functional baseraid.
I tend to look at a lot of things in life as half-full. Give me a few lemons and I'll make lemonade. Put the lime in the coconut, etc.
So when someone says there's "Nothing but combat" I try to find those things that don't involve combat.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Combat is exciting and fast-paced, but I've found tha yes, that really is all the game has to offer. It's one combat scenario after another, and there's very little variation between them. I'd have liked it if they'd found other types of content to explore. Maybe something involving secret identities (no, I'm not suggesting crafting), a staple of the comic hero genre.
I'm always torn about what to say of an MMO I've enjoyed but decided to stop playing. On the one hand, any game will feel stale and repetitive eventually, and I got more out of CoH than I have from most games. On the other hand, the game does have some very real limitations. The gameplay really is a shallow, combat-heavy experience, and the developers either neglected or deliberately turned away concepts that could have added some needed depth.
Sometimes all you want to do is jump in and kick some ass, and CoH does that very well. Swooping down on a gang of villains and taking them to task is a great way to kill some time. If that's your bag, CoH is probably for you, at least for a while. If you're looking for a game with substance, you might want to pass it by for now.
This is one of the best features about Guild Wars. You CAN create a max level (20) character right out of the gate. The drawback is that this character is limited to PvP areas only. And because you haven't unlocked any skills through quests, he may be somewhat limited.
Still, if you've played your way through the game once and just want to experiment with other builds, GW lets you do this when you create a new character. CoH/V doesn't. Why? They want you to pay for the same trip twice.
Overall I think COH being combat-only helps it be relatively bug free (or used to, though I7 is riddled with bugs much more than usual for this game), but if you are not in the mood for combat of an evening... why bother even log in?
Contrast this with my other game that I am enjoying a lot right now, Saga of Ryzom. If I want to fight, I can (both the fighting and magic skill sets are there for that). But if I feel like harvesting resources, or crafting, I can do that as well. On Sunday after a particularly annoying set of repetitive missions on the Arachnos map (I hate that map) I bailed on my regular COH Sunday group early, and swapped over to Ryzom. I was just sick of the mindless combat in COH, so I worked for about 3 hours finding and harvesting resources. Boring to some? Sure. But it let me at least play the game, and develop skills, and work on my character, and enjoy the whole world, etc, and get something accomplished, while not doing a lick of combat. Sometimes I am not in the mood for combat, and when I am not, there is just no point to logging into COH, but I can log into Ryzom whether I am in the mood to fight, or not, because there are non-combat things to do.
Finally, I'm not sure why, other than their own personal inability to think outside the box, almost everyone seems to think that non-combat == crafting. Surely in the comic-book genre we can think of a thousand things to do that are in-theme for that genre, and are NOT crafting, but are not combat either.
C