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Added Accessability or Instant Gratification?
Nilden
Member EpicPosts: 3,916
Sure there is a fine line to walk. I don't want Vanguard to be as easy and spoon fed as WoW. I don't want Vanguard to be as tedious and time consuming as EQ. I want a happy medium.
Lets use travel time as an example.
Should an entire guild be able to meet up in under one minute? Should you be able to teleport from any city to any other city? No it makes travel meaningless. I want travel to mean something and if I see someone at the gates to the black castle I know they got here the same way I did only on a different mount.
Now don't get me wrong if getting anywhere takes over an hour and you stare at a horses behind that entire time I can see how travel would be an issue. The key here would be a happy medium where you travel from outposts to dungeons in about 15 minutes, not taking into account locations of player cities. Look distance creates immersion, if you can be anywhere instantly or in 5 minutes, the world is going to seem like a sand box.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/
Comments
Oh sure give me immersion anyday - so that means I will never be able to play with my friends as it will take 4 hours for all of us to get to the same lcoation (sarcasm).
I think you should be able to travel instantly to any main city you have already been to. If you are going into the wilderness to a dungeon, or off to a new city then you should have to do the hard slog.
This means you can contact your friends, let them know you found some great thing in the middle of nowhere, meet up with them at the nearest city (2 minutes), then spend a few happy hours trudging through the wilderness to get to the great thing you want to show them.
Instant travel between cities you already have mapped lets you get together with your friends, which means you are going to enjoy your time more, which means you will spend more time in the game.
One of the reasons I unsubscribed from FF XI was that it took so long to travel. Now that WoW has come out, I don't think I'll ever play a MMO that wastes my time as much as games before it did. Life is too short to spend playing games with huge timesinks.
Besides, there are too many options where I won't have to put up with that crap. . . Age of Conan, Gods & Heroes, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer, etc.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
lol.
Yeah, screw that. I'm an old FPS clan players, so when I admire players, they've got mad skillz. . . MMOs just aren't skill-based like FPS games are. . . really, MMOs are just about time spent playing and joining an uber guild that does hard-to-access raid content.
But that's okay, I don't play MMOs because I am looking to "be the best", though I do love Guild War's very fair PvP and the skill that takes. . . No, mostly I'm looking to have fun playing together with my friends. . . and we can't do that if it takes us 4 freaking hours to get to each other before we can play.
I really dont understand the argument for travel time, or anything else in a game just because it make one group of people feel inferior to another group based only on one's play time.
people who put more into an endeavor will generally always come up with more to show for it than people put put in less. this is just the fact of the universe. therefore, for people who have less time to spend in game (myself included) can never compete with those that spend 14 hours a day in a MMO on a day to day basis if you play on the same level.
I really suggest a MMO have a link to the IRS, bank account or something that will post your real life earning under your toon's name and maybe perhaps how many dependance you have on your tax return. that way, people that who play less have something to bost about when they run into people that spend all day in games.
I'm all for instant travel - and I do mean INSTANT travel, whether it be by players (teleport spells) or by teleport "pads". Let me use WoW as an example: Griffawn rides are fun FOR THE FIRST TIME viewing an area; after that it's boring and meaningless to me. So therefore I would rather have instant travel from city to city or city to outpost, after it's already been discovered (like WoW).
Not having a form of instant travel (or lightning speed mounts) = less accessibility = less subscribers for sure. With SOEs involvement I guareentee you this game will be more accessible than previously intended by Sigil.
I may be wrong about some of this...but I think the game is being engineered to sidestep the problems you are all talking about...
1) The game is being designed to keep you with your friends, so that you won't be needing to travel long distances to get to them.
2) The game is being designed so that the large cities won't be the extreme focal point that they have been in many other games, it will make much more sense to bind at an outpost near the content you are attempting, and if your friends are relatively close in level, they will more than likely be bound at the same outpost or close enough to it.
3) The cities are the things that you will make long treks to reach, not your friends.
4) The dungeons have been described as such that you will probably spend a couple days or a week going through them. You'll spend a day getting to the dungeon and starting the first bits. You'll spend the next few going into the dungeon and completeing it. I assume (and have heard from devs) that there will be ways in which your group's progress will be saved (Advanced Encounter System), and that you can pick up the adventure at a later date. You will probably be making a few trips out of the dungeon to sell your gear at the nearest outpost.
Meh...
I appretiate the longer-than-WoW travel times, for the simple fact that they are doing it to create price differences between the continents...so that people can make money by moving goods (buy low, sell high).
I swear, some of you need to try out console games. They have all the instant gratification you could want, and if it isn't instant enough, you can usually find cheat codes to make it even easier.
Quote "Oh sure give me immersion anyday - so that means I will never be able to play with my friends as it will take 4 hours for all of us to get to the same lcoation (sarcasm)."
If your comprehensions skills were upto your troll-slaying skills you would have noticed that the 4 hours was a sarcastic generalization and at no point was I suggesting or even implying that travel in VSOH would take 4 hours.
(I can see you have had a hard day troll-slaying in the end-game = raiding thread, so I apologise in advance if this statement offends you)
In which case you could have added something to the topic of whether instant travel adds accessability or is just instant gratification.
If it takes less than an hour to travel, travel times have nothing to do with realism and there is really no point in not providing instant travel to cities or outposts you already have mapped.
This will promote group play with your friends.
I have no problem with spending hours exploring the wilderness - thats where the fun is in discovering new things. Thats the challenge, and thrill.
But when I want to play with friends - any downtime spent travelling is wasted time that could have been spent actually playing.
So again I cant see any downside with instant travel to major mapped cities / outposts that you have already visited by more mundane means.
And as long as console software is region locked forcing me to pay inflated prices and restricting where I can buy my software I will never by a console. PC gaming ftw.
in vanguard you will not have to travel across contents every day to get to where your group is, you will likely move your house near to where the dungeons that are in your level range are.
also there will be "caravans" that let you or your friends move you to the area they are even if you are not logged in.
i don't think the fact that there is no instant travel is going to be as tedious as most of you think, i understand some people like games with instant travel but vanguard isn't one of those games.
i like no instant travel because the people that are in a certain area will form a local community and also i like the open trade market, where each region has different prices for things.
instead of instantly going to the auction house or bazaar (witch i don't mind either). as long as I'm not constantly traveling from one spot to the next(like oblivion if it had no instant travel) i like no instant travel.
Well I can see where some people come from, sure it's good to play with
your friends, sure you don't have a lot of time to spend just going
somewhere instead of doing something.
A couple things happen when you have instant travel tho that in my
opinion make the game much easier. Are they time saving yes, do they
add immersion, no.
1. An instant teleport hub
Pretty much every game has them now. DAoC, WoW, EQ, etc. SWG sorta had
it but it was more unofficial, like Corronet or Theed, but every planet
had player run cities. I like running into someone who I see is part of
the town on some backwater planet. It's like running into a local. Like
meeting a hick out in the country. Plus this guy has friends and this
is thier territory. That or everyone stands in Ironforge or plane of knowledge.
2. one world market
I like localized markets where people set up thier own vendors and you
go to thier shops. Like in UO and SWG. I mean sure an auction house or
bizzare is faster but just not the same as seeing someones shop. Local
economies where you can set up different prices for different locations
on the same server, get out of this city! Even more crazy resource
spots that mean something, you have a huge ore deposit but no wood to
speak of and another region has lots of wood but no ore. Wow, mind
blowing I know.
3. the sandbox effect
By having one teleport hub, one world market you create one spot that
anyone will need to go to. Some might think that is grand, one stop
shopping, one stop training, one stop for... everything. Besides making
the world revolve around one center point and making the world feel
smaller for not having more than one main city, it's grand. I liked having to find my spells and the gnomes had cetain fire spells or the elves had certain healing spells. Each town had it's own race and classes and trainers. It's like Borg mentality.
4. time is a measure of distance
Look I can understand gate spells and travel spells and they are cool.
Summon spells are nice too for getting your friends to you. I'm all for
those. Why because the player controls it. You summon someone to you.
You teleport to your bind spot. A wizard teleports you to a wizard
spire. I mean that made wizards and druids really cool to play, but
then they put in plane of knowledge and anyone could teleport anywhere.
You just killed half the spells for 2 classes.
If you were a warrior in EQ you could get a really expensive gate
potion, or more often than not you walked somewhere you were walking
back out. i guess that is "hardcore" now.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I think the problem is...people hear "longer travel time" and "No instant travel" and this is what they think....
They think of a central city, a hot spot....where the majority of people on the server stand around and wait for something to happen. An Ironforge, and Undercity....a whatever.
They think they will be spamming /general lvl 33 Sorc LFG Dungeon
They think they will find a group of players that are likewise standing in that hot spot waiting for something to happend, and then they will have to ride on a horse for 30 minutes to get to the dungeon.
I assure you, this is not how the game is being designed.
There is no hub. There ARE LFG menues. You WILL be binding in small towns that are near content you wish to reach until you get a flying mount. When you are done with an area...or your friends are done with an area you will all just pick up and move to a new "outpost" that is 5 or 10 minutes from appropriate content. You may be traveling for 20 minutes to get to that new outpost...but that is part of the adventure of it. Once you get there though...you won't be needing to relocate until you outlevel the area. It's not going to be an every day occurance.
so yeah this game is going to take a long time to travel but its not going to be boring travel its going to be fun
on the way youll be able to fight and ride your horse and boat
its going to be great fun
the game is huge
think about it WoW is like a 4 gig game and it takes a will to run places
well Vanguard is 18 gigs in beta so dont be a baby about it
Here is a Vanguard FAQ section for those that don't quite grasp the concept of "Long Travel" and "Meaningful Travel"
it will take a long time to get around but youll have fun gettign around its not just going to be walking every where
and telaporting is so dumb
Spending an hour to get somewhere you have already been is dumb, boring and frustrating if the only reason you are going there is to catch up with someone else.
If I am travelling somewhere I have never been then I dont mind going on a boat, joining a caravan or just jumping on my horse and heading into the wild unknown, and I also dont care if it takes longer than an hour.
But if I am trying to get together with a friend so we can do somthing together - then spending any time travelling (even 5 minutes) is annoying as at that point in time its of no interest to me what so ever. My objective is to get back to somewhere I have already been to catch up with someone. So this is the point at which instant travel to somewhere I already have mapped is of great benefit.
And please note I am not asking for instant travel to everywhere on the map - just major towns / outposts.
And how is this any different from joining a caravan - then me going to bed. The next day my character will be somewhere else and I personally have not wasted any time doing it.
This is assuming, of course, that Vanguard travel isn't fun and interesting even the second, third, 100th time around. This is what they have concerned themselves with...how to make traveling fun and interesting after you have travelled those same roads before. I mean really....you probably won't even notice it so much. I mean...I drive 45 minutes to my job every single day. 45 minutes one way, and 45 minutes back. After you've done it a few times, you really don't even notice that it's been 45 minutes anymore.
The problem with long travel in MMOs has always been that you aren't DOING anything when you are traveling. You've been waiting for and on a boat...or watching your character ride along on a griffon. So far, they've said that this "meaningful travel" has gotten good feedback from Beta testers so far, and I'm sure we'll all have a better idea of what that means in the upcomming months.
In essence...don't paint them as making the same mistakes when they have POINTED OUT the mistakes that they made (with travel and others) and told us they don't want to make those mistakes again. They may make new ones, but most likely not the same mistakes.
The problem I have is with travelling when its not what I want to do.
My example get together with a few friends to do a quest, or go exploring or just trade junk. But if it takes even 10 minutes to get to them I am annoyed as thats 10 minutes of my life wasted - time I will never get back - doing something I didnt want to do.
Thats a totally different situation to travelling to a new city where my objective is to TRAVEL somewhere new. In this case I dont care if it takes an hour as the travelling (hopefully enjoyable) is part of what I am doing.
Or when I am exploring - I do want it to take time, thats what makes exploring and finding new things fun and challenging.
So I have no problem with travelling taking time when going somewhere I have never been before.
However I do object to travelling taking time to get somewhere I have already been when I have no interest in travel at that time - its tedious not fun. And here I am talking major towns and outposts. So I still havent seen an explanation why this wouldnt be in for this case.
If I want to go back somewhere I have been in the wilderness - then I expect this to take time, its off the beaten path. And who knows I might find something new on the way there.
/shrug
What you have to understand, is that what you are doing when you are thinking of "longer" travel, you are just thinking about games you've already played and mentally making you walk from A to B. That may not be the case with Vanguard. They have charged themselves with the task of making travel fun. While long travel time might be hiddeously boring in WoW or EQ, it may not be the case in Vanguard.
They said they have a Plan B for travel though. Sigil says that they aren't stupid enough to stick to their guns about something that just isn't fun. They have told us that they engineered the game so that they can easily impliment teleporation if it becomes the case that travel is too tedious...but then immediately after that, they said that the feedback has been excellent about travel and don't forsee them needing to put it in. That may change 6 months after release, but nobody here is psychic.
What you have to understand is, what the person you are refusing to understand is saying, is that if he just finished up working his job, helping his kids with their homework, cleaning up after dinner, etc and so on, and now he's settling down for his very precious game time, of which he never gets enough because he has a life.. and he now wants to play the game with a few friends of his... -nothing- is going to make *traveling for an hour* just so he can play with the people he wants to play "fun", because he wants to freaking play the game with his friends, not fight his way across zones for an hour to get to them! I'm sorry this is too difficult a concept for some of you to understand. What on -earth- are you imagining?
"Dude, we want to start this dungeon, where are you?"
"Sorry man, I just got the kids to bed, and my character is still back at the outpost"
"Hurry up, we want to start the blasted dungeon! John has to go to bed in 2 hours he's gotta be up at 6am!"
"Oh SHUT UP already! Can't you see? I'm having FUN traveling!"
"Hurry up!"
"Aw crap! I just got eaten by trolls"
"We gotta start without you man."
"WEEEE! TRAVELING IS FUN!"
again, it has already been mentioned that you will not have to travel far every time you want to do a dungeon. in wow and eq for example usually there is some sort of central hub where people meet to join groups (i.e pok, org, IF).
from what i have read, people move their stuff from area to area (including their house) that is closer to places that they will be adventuring around their level, there is no central hub for starting groups in some far away land like alot of other games.
so for all we know it could only take 15 mins or less to get to the dungeon that your group is heading to. its not like you will have to travel all the way across the Continent each time you join a group, that would suck IMO.
I'm sure you will have to travel every once in a while to get to an area that is closer to the dungeons that you want to adventure in. if you are unable to make that travel (or don't want to) you can have your friends take you when you are offline via caravan.
i do understand if someone has very little time to play, i would say if someone only has a hour or two to play maybe there is some other things they could do on that particular night instead of getting a group to do a dungeon.
and if it was me and i had only one or two hours each time i played i probably wouldn't play a game like vanguard, i would be looking for a more casual/solo friendly game, but that is just me.
So, everyone is going to advance from zone to zone in a linear fashion, all camping out in the exact same area because the game world is so limited that there's no where else to go?
You can't have it both ways. Either the game world is a huge game world that's supposed to bring back a sense of exploration and freedom to MMOs (as Brad has often said)... in which case, if you don't play for a night or two, your friends *will* move to areas that you then *will* have to travel to in order to meet up with them... or, as you are implying, the game is nothing but a linear grindfest in which everyone playing goes from zone to zone in the same order because there aren't any choices, so you'll always be with your friends. Which is it?
Everyone who played Everquest for any significant time knows the feeling of logging in for the evening in Freeport after not playing for a night or two only to find out all your friends are out near Qeynos. A large, varied game world with "meaningful travel" means you will be "meaningfully traveling" to try to catch up with people who moved on while they're playing and having fun because you skipped a couple of nights of play and that's the bottom line.
This is why modern MMOs have instant travel methods to begin with.