Keymapping

Anofalye · July 2006

I know this is a detail, especially that we can change it in option (the first thing I do when I create a new character), but honestly they change something that was awesome for something less good IMO.

QWEASD are the 6 main keys to control your characters, but to turn left, you have to press Q instead of A. At release it was A that turn you left, however they change it so A is a side run.

I still think this change was a bad idea, it is a "good change" for PvP oriented player, as side running is more efficient than turning on left, but it is FAR less immersive, it is not natural to be side running all the time...or it is very uncomfortable to have 3 fingers on the front row!

I know, this is a detail and it take 30 seconds to change it, still, I was preferring the old way, it was more natural for a player who doesn't try to maximised his movements but rather try to focus on his actions. Don't get me wrong, I understand that side running is STRONG for PvP, it is just not immersive or feeling right, I don't side run in life, I turn and run mostly forward.

I could also use the 4 directional arrows, but then both hands would be on the right side, which is uncomfortable to say the least...especially for hours.

This tiny little details display a LOT about why CoH was change the way it was, it was all done for PvP...and saddly, PvP isn't launching, yet those changes are having a heavy toll on PvE players. Now this precise change is superficial, still, it is a good example. I still think IoP should not affect PvE at all and have much stronger bonus in PvP only.

yac709 · July 2006

It's got nothing to do with PvP, it's just how 3D games have evolved.
In fact, I'm suprised they didn't do this at launch...

Ages ago, shooters like Doom, Duke Nukem 3d assumed you used the keyboard only, because players back then didn't need to look up and down.

When Quake and other 'real 3d' games came out, mouse-look became more popular as the mouse could handle turning and looking, much faster and more precisely.
Nowadays, almost every 3d game defaults to the WASD (Foward, Back, Strafe L, Strafe R) and mouse-look combo.

I used to be an avid Keyboard-looker but once I tried mouse-look, I never wanted to go back! ::::01::
And side-running is good for PvE as well, as it helps you peek around around corners and such...

Yes, there were lots of PvP changes that affected PvE, but this isn't one of them...

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

I know this is a detail, especially that we can change it in option (the first thing I do when I create a new character), but honestly they change something that was awesome for something less good IMO.

QWEASD are the 6 main keys to control your characters, but to turn left, you have to press Q instead of A. At release it was A that turn you left, however they change it so A is a side run.

I still think this change was a bad idea, it is a "good change" for PvP oriented player, as side running is more efficient than turning on left, but it is FAR less immersive, it is not natural to be side running all the time...or it is very uncomfortable to have 3 fingers on the front row!

I know, this is a detail and it take 30 seconds to change it, still, I was preferring the old way, it was more natural for a player who doesn't try to maximised his movements but rather try to focus on his actions. Don't get me wrong, I understand that side running is STRONG for PvP, it is just not immersive or feeling right, I don't side run in life, I turn and run mostly forward.

I could also use the 4 directional arrows, but then both hands would be on the right side, which is uncomfortable to say the least...especially for hours.

This tiny little details display a LOT about why CoH was change the way it was, it was all done for PvP...and saddly, PvP isn't launching, yet those changes are having a heavy toll on PvE players. Now this precise change is superficial, still, it is a good example. I still think IoP should not affect PvE at all and have much stronger bonus in PvP only.

What change? I have been playing since the CoH beta and the default has always been a and d to strafe, with q and e to turn. I set up a keybind.txt with the basic keymapping I like. Every time I start a new character, I simply /bind_load keybind.txt and it sets everything to my defaults. But the 'change' you are complaining about was in game well before pvp, even before release.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

What change? I have been playing since the CoH beta and the default has always been a and d to strafe, with q and e to turn. I set up a keybind.txt with the basic keymapping I like. Every time I start a new character, I simply /bind_load keybind.txt and it sets everything to my defaults. But the 'change' you are complaining about was in game well before pvp, even before release.

Nope. The default was A and D to turn when I join...and I join between I1 and I2.

And as to get my default loaded in or whatever...err...I don't want to check and spend time to learn that, 30 seconds per character = less work than whatever it would mean to learn this new thing. My default should automatically be loaded, by default, on a new character, I could clear if I don't like it.

And again, I am sorry to contradict you, but the default, between I1 and I2, was just as I said, A and D to turn, Q and E was to side run. As to my personal way of playing, I use the mouse as a secondary support when it come to turning around, I do it, but far less than I use A and D (since I keymap them on new characters and my first character was always that way). My mouse is primary used to select my targets, activate a power if my left hand is busy (most of the time, especially that my left hand has issues if it is not attack 1, 2 or 3 that I want to select) and then, to control my view is it third duty, FAR behind the two others. It prolly has it sources in EQ...I surprise myself hitting some weird keys sometimes...and hearing my character repeat a dumb command, I think it is the F keys...in EQ I use them a LOT, I can't remember exactly which does what, but in stress, I just do it, remembering that this key do switch the camera in such a way if I hit it many times...of course I then curse when I see it is not the case...I am not even sure which key it is that I hit, as I forgot it...in my conscious memory...yet...in stress, I keep looking for F9 or whatever F key to turn my camera, I curse and then use the simpler tool, but still lost time! Hehe.

The reason why I say it is a PvP change, even if the movement is just as efficient in PvE than in PvP, you don't need it in PvE, the monsters AI is not built to be that annoying or nearly nobody would play, while in PvP it is critical to move with side running.

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

Nope. The default was A and D to turn when I join...and I join between I1 and I2.

And as to get my default loaded in or whatever...err...I don't want to check and spend time to learn that, 30 seconds per character = less work than whatever it would mean to learn this new thing. My default should automatically be loaded, by default, on a new character, I could clear if I don't like it.

And again, I am sorry to contradict you, but the default, between I1 and I2, was just as I said, A and D to turn, Q and E was to side run. As to my personal way of playing, I use the mouse as a secondary support when it come to turning around, I do it, but far less than I use A and D (since I keymap them on new characters and my first character was always that way). My mouse is primary used to select my targets, activate a power if my left hand is busy (most of the time, especially that my left hand has issues if it is not attack 1, 2 or 3 that I want to select) and then, to control my view is it third duty, FAR behind the two others. It prolly has it sources in EQ...I surprise myself hitting some weird keys sometimes...and hearing my character repeat a dumb command, I think it is the F keys...in EQ I use them a LOT, I can't remember exactly which does what, but in stress, I just do it, remembering that this key do switch the camera in such a way if I hit it many times...of course I then curse when I see it is not the case...I am not even sure which key it is that I hit, as I forgot it...in my conscious memory...yet...in stress, I keep looking for F9 or whatever F key to turn my camera, I curse and then use the simpler tool, but still lost time! Hehe.

The reason why I say it is a PvP change, even if the movement is just as efficient in PvE than in PvP, you don't need it in PvE, the monsters AI is not built to be that annoying or nearly nobody would play, while in PvP it is critical to move with side running.

If you say so. I have been playing since the CoH beta and I do not remember it ever being defaulted differently that it is now. I always had to change the defaults so that a and d were turn, with q and e to strafe. Always. If you look at the old key-bind guides from release, you will see that it has not changed. I know this because I wrote one of the early key-bind guides, and maintained it up to I6. (I have not yet updated for I7.) Contradict all you like, but that does not make you right.

And you can claim changes are for anything you like, but that does not make it true. If a change (which never really happened) predates what you claim is the reason for the change, then your claim has no basis for merit. Unless you want to talk philosophy, that is.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

If you say so. I have been playing since the CoH beta and I do not remember it ever being defaulted differently that it is now. I always had to change the defaults so that a and d were turn, with q and e to strafe. Always. If you look at the old key-bind guides from release, you will see that it has not changed. I know this because I wrote one of the early key-bind guides, and maintained it up to I6. (I have not yet updated for I7.) Contradict all you like, but that does not make you right.
And you can claim changes are for anything you like, but that does not make it true. If a change (which never really happened) predates what you claim is the reason for the change, then your claim has no basis for merit. Unless you want to talk philosophy, that is.

Well, I never change the basic keymapping of my first character, my level 50 scrapper. I remember wasting a good 5 minutes, utterly confused, the first time I made another character, as I didn't know what to do with these weird new controls keys.

Someone get false information, poor memory or a desire to lie. There is nothing more to add, as it seem unlikely that we will come to shed any light on this, as we are both firmly set on our side/beliefs.

Weijyan · July 2006

Lol... Way to set yourself up as the one with the 'good' memory. And there is a way to solve this. If anybody has a copy of the old Brady Games guide book and a scanner, they can prove me right.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan
Lol... Way to set yourself up as the one with the 'good' memory. And there is a way to solve this. If anybody has a copy of the old Brady Games guide book and a scanner, they can prove me right.

It would hardly prove that it was that way between I1 and I2. The devs have change many things and I am pretty sure that sometimes, they come back to olds ways, why do you assume it can't be the case?

And YOU assume that I meant it was automatically you that is doing the mistake, while in fact I just said that we where both to convince we are right to be convince. There are peoples who look for conflicts, and you honestly belong to these crowd.

EDIT: I am happy that you select the word Memory, not Information or Lie. Memory can't apply to you as you have no memory of what I am talking about, thereby if someone has a bad memory, it is automatically me. You would have bad information or be lying, the list was complete as to implie that neither me, nor you, is automatically right or at fault. Now of course, I am convince I am right and my memory is not at fault, yet, for this sentence, as a matter of fact, I include this option, solely for me, since how can your memory be bad if you didn't experience it at all and the change might have happen during an era you create no new character? (added levels 40-50)...as I said, someone see what he want, and you want conflict. So let's it be that way if you soo choose.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

Originally posted by Anofalye

The reason why I say it is a PvP change, even if the movement is just as efficient in PvE than in PvP, you don't need it in PvE, the monsters AI is not built to be that annoying or nearly nobody would play, while in PvP it is critical to move with side running.

And you can claim changes are for anything you like, but that does not make it true. If a change (which never really happened) predates what you claim is the reason for the change, then your claim has no basis for merit. Unless you want to talk philosophy, that is.

Think for 1 moment, why would they put the commands key that way in PvE? Which PvE player want strafe to be easier to access then turn? None, it solely apply to PvP players or peoples who have PvP experience. Someone who start PvE for the first time would not feel that strafing is more useful than turning, in fact learning to use the strafe command require some additional efforts, which no PvE player will feel is require, you hardly need that to succeed in PvE, thereby it is a PvP feature.

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

Think for 1 moment, why would they put the commands key that way in PvE? Which PvE player want strafe to be easier to access then turn? None, it solely apply to PvP players or peoples who have PvP experience. Someone who start PvE for the first time would not feel that strafing is more useful than turning, in fact learning to use the strafe command require some additional efforts, which no PvE player will feel is require, you hardly need that to succeed in PvE, thereby it is a PvP feature.

While your reasoning is decent enough, you just have no evidence that it was for pvp. Especially since you have yet to even establish that there was a change. But even if there was a change, you said it happened around I2, 3 issues before pvp was introduced in the slightest. That is over a year's worth of updates.

How can something be a pvp feature when, by your own dates, the absolue latest it was added was over a year before pvp of any kind (arenas) were even announced? Sorry, but your aguement has absolutely no logic to it at all.

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

It would hardly prove that it was that way between I1 and I2. The devs have change many things and I am pretty sure that sometimes, they come back to olds ways, why do you assume it can't be the case?

And YOU assume that I meant it was automatically you that is doing the mistake, while in fact I just said that we where both to convince we are right to be convince. There are peoples who look for conflicts, and you honestly belong to these crowd.

I do not dispute that devs will backtrack if there is enough protest from the community, but not often with-out it. Youi never said anything about it changing from the original, to a new form, back to the original. You simply said it started out with a and d as turn and it was changed to strafe.

And what else am I supposed to think, as it is just you and I talking and you said somebody was making a mistake?

Originally posted by Anofalye

EDIT: I am happy that you select the word Memory, not Information or Lie. Memory can't apply to you as you have no memory of what I am talking about, thereby if someone has a bad memory, it is automatically me. You would have bad information or be lying, the list was complete as to implie that neither me, nor you, is automatically right or at fault. Now of course, I am convince I am right and my memory is not at fault, yet, for this sentence, as a matter of fact, I include this option, solely for me, since how can your memory be bad if you didn't experience it at all and the change might have happen during an era you create no new character? (added levels 40-50)...as I said, someone see what he want, and you want conflict. So let's it be that way if you soo choose.

Even if I had not made a new lowbie during this period (not especially likely, as I am an alt-o-holic, not to mention always testing new things added to the game), I game with a fairly steady group of players. I would have heard about it from one of them.

I am not looking for conflict, I am merely not backing down from it. What I have stated is 100% accurate. If you do not like it, that is your issue.

VengeSunsoar · July 2006

I change all my keys to arrows, mouse and a and d to strafe, can't remember if it was that way on release or not.

However the idea that the only reason, or the best reasson this was done was for pvp is rediculous. I do not pvp. Turning is better when you are changing direction but most times I just point myself inthe direction I want to go and set sprint/speed/jump/flight and strafe around all objects in the way. It is much easier than turning IMO anyway.

Venge Sunsoar

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

Originally posted by Anofalye

Think for 1 moment, why would they put the commands key that way in PvE? Which PvE player want strafe to be easier to access then turn? None, it solely apply to PvP players or peoples who have PvP experience. Someone who start PvE for the first time would not feel that strafing is more useful than turning, in fact learning to use the strafe command require some additional efforts, which no PvE player will feel is require, you hardly need that to succeed in PvE, thereby it is a PvP feature.

While your reasoning is decent enough, you just have no evidence that it was for pvp. Especially since you have yet to even establish that there was a change. But even if there was a change, you said it happened around I2, 3 issues before pvp was introduced in the slightest. That is over a year's worth of updates.

How can something be a pvp feature when, by your own dates, the absolue latest it was added was over a year before pvp of any kind (arenas) were even announced? Sorry, but your aguement has absolutely no logic to it at all.

Even IF you would be right about the fact it was never change, it doesn't imply anything about the reason of why A is a left strafe rather than turning left. Why would you put it that way? I don't say they did it on PURPOSE and willingly for most of the staff, only a few individuals bringing some logic with it. But why, would it be set in such a way? I can't see no PvE reason at all to back it up. I think it is pretty clear that a big part of the staff at Cryptic are PvP fans and thereby it is logical to assume that even if they are not doing that on purpose, it reflect on many aspects. Keymapping was affected by PvP reasons, willingly or not. (nothing wrong with been a fan of anything, you just have to be careful that it doesn't affect negatively your product, this is a detail for keymapping and nothing major, I would not hold a grudge about such a thing, but I think it is a wonderfull example)

I am pretty sure they change the basic keymapping somewhere between I1 and I2 or I3. But even if they didn't change it, it doesn't change the fact that such basic keymapping is done for a reason, for a goal, be it admitted or not. It is also clear that from all time, GAME BALANCING was vital for them...game balancing is vital for PvP, not for PvE. When you consider an aspect, you have to consider the context, the situation around it.

Even with no situation around it, strafing with A instead of turning is solely done for HIGHLY EFFICIENCY reasons, soo highly that they have no bearing and no foundation in PvE where the peoples would want a friendly and natural starts, which is clearly turning left rather than strafing left.

Saying that I have decent reasoning and no logic at all in the same message is...weird. If Keymapping was not done this way for PvP reasons, please provide a suggestion as to why it would be soo HIGLY focused on EFFICIENCY after some training, since it is counter-intuitive, which is the opposite of 90% of what the game tries to be.

yac709 · July 2006

Even with no situation around it, strafing with A instead of turning is solely done for HIGHLY EFFICIENCY reasons, soo highly that they have no bearing and no foundation in PvE where the peoples would want a friendly and natural starts, which is clearly turning left rather than strafing left.

For people coming from an action game background, strafing is more natural to them. I agree that it's disorienting to a first-time user but in my opinion, it's better to get them started in mouse-look/strafing than the inferior keyboard-look.

Saying that I have decent reasoning and no logic at all in the same message is...weird. If Keymapping was not done this way for PvP reasons, please provide a suggestion as to why it would be soo HIGLY focused on EFFICIENCY after some training, since it is counter-intuitive, which is the opposite of 90% of what the game tries to be.

I don't remember what the original controls were since I've always used my own binds but anyway...

Combat in CoV is fast-paced and changing your position is often required to avoid death, line up enemies or pull.
Sidestepping is a huge advantage to a player, in both PvE and PvP.
The only reason you see it as 'non-essential' is because PvE in this game is easy enough that you can survive well enough with limited maneuverability.
But in some situations, a few seconds is the difference between success or debt.

While I can understand that you may find it counter-intuitive, you have to realise that...
Mouse-look is now the de facto standard and along with that, side-stepping also became very popular.
Almost every modern action game uses mouse-look and almost every modern gamer uses it as well.

The change was not done to cater to PvP gamers but to conform to the most popular and efficient control method. While it may it be disorienting for someone used to keyboard-turn, it is the superior method and I highly recommend you try it out.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by yac709

I don't remember what the original controls were since I've always used my own binds but anyway...

Combat in CoV is fast-paced and changing your position is often required to avoid death, line up enemies or pull.
Sidestepping is a huge advantage to a player, in both PvE and PvP.
The only reason you see it as 'non-essential' is because PvE in this game is easy enough that you can survive well enough with limited maneuverability.
But in some situations, a few seconds is the difference between success or debt.

While I can understand that you may find it counter-intuitive, you have to realise that...
Mouse-look is now the de facto standard and along with that, side-stepping also became very popular.
Almost every modern action game uses mouse-look and almost every modern gamer uses it as well.

The change was not done to cater to PvP gamers but to conform to the most popular and efficient control method. While it may it be disorienting for someone used to keyboard-turn, it is the superior method and I highly recommend you try it out.

I tried, I must have played CoH and CoV nearly 1 thousand hours...even if I put strafe on Q, I did try it sometimes...it pretty much paralyze my toon as I try to figure it well.

I can't...just like I can't swim. Nothing much to add really. It is not like I really could.

Not to mention, some peoples might be able to swim and dislike it. Even if I would somehow manage to learn it, I doubt I would enjoy it.

As to saying CoH is action-filled...I disagree...it is real-time...but I never enjoy an action-filled game that much, DDO and Auto-Assault have both failed, because they are action-filled. Yet, I feel like I am doing good in CoH...

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

Even IF you would be right about the fact it was never change, it doesn't imply anything about the reason of why A is a left strafe rather than turning left. Why would you put it that way?

Because that is how they put it. They were trying to get the FPS crowd at launch, so they used common FPS keymapping. They also knew that it would not overly matter because everybody would map their keys as they wanted. At the time it was launched, according to the devs, there was no plan for pvp. Yet, they launched with the keymap that you are claiming as proof of pvp change.

I don't say they did it on PURPOSE and willingly for most of the staff, only a few individuals bringing some logic with it. But why, would it be set in such a way? I can't see no PvE reason at all to back it up. I think it is pretty clear that a big part of the staff at Cryptic are PvP fans and thereby it is logical to assume that even if they are not doing that on purpose, it reflect on many aspects. Keymapping was affected by PvP reasons, willingly or not. (nothing wrong with been a fan of anything, you just have to be careful that it doesn't affect negatively your product, this is a detail for keymapping and nothing major, I would not hold a grudge about such a thing, but I think it is a wonderfull example)

What you have here is what is called circumstantial evidence, not proof of pvp intent and/or change. And I have already answered why it was mapped that way in the first place.

I am pretty sure they change the basic keymapping somewhere between I1 and I2 or I3. But even if they didn't change it, it doesn't change the fact that such basic keymapping is done for a reason, for a goal, be it admitted or not. It is also clear that from all time, GAME BALANCING was vital for them...game balancing is vital for PvP, not for PvE. When you consider an aspect, you have to consider the context, the situation around it.

Even with no situation around it, strafing with A instead of turning is solely done for HIGHLY EFFICIENCY reasons, soo highly that they have no bearing and no foundation in PvE where the peoples would want a friendly and natural starts, which is clearly turning left rather than strafing left.

Again, you are reading far more into the completely mallable keymapping than is really there.

Game balancing is 100% vital for pve, and to claim otherwise is to display a lack of understaning of how mmo's work. There has to be a balance in pve or the unbalanced strong at's will be over-used and the unbalanced weak at's will be rarely/never used. Think about how the nerfs and changes have effected which at's are seen in pve and tell me again that pve balance is not vital.

Saying that I have decent reasoning and no logic at all in the same message is...weird. If Keymapping was not done this way for PvP reasons, please provide a suggestion as to why it would be soo HIGLY focused on EFFICIENCY after some training, since it is counter-intuitive, which is the opposite of 90% of what the game tries to be.

Actually, it is not weird at all. Reasoning and logic are not really the same thing. Reasoning is merely the ability to think. Logic is the ability to think clearly and rationally with-out prejudice. Your thoughts were decent, but there was not any logic to them. Sorry.

And the reasoning behind the FPS style keymapping has already been noted above.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

Game balancing is 100% vital for pve, and to claim otherwise is to display a lack of understaning of how mmo's work. There has to be a balance in pve or the unbalanced strong at's will be over-used and the unbalanced weak at's will be rarely/never used. Think about how the nerfs and changes have effected which at's are seen in pve and tell me again that pve balance is not vital.

Hehe, I will end with our started debate, because I think we both said all we have about Keymapping, I won't change my mind since I doesn't feel you prove your point and you think that I am not even logic!

For this point, I mostly disagree. In PvE balancing is irrelevant, as long as every AT as a good reason to be group-worthy. Nobody will ever say that in old EQ for example there was balance, there was none. Bards where ultimately strong, yet ultimately annoying to play. Chanters and clerics where very strongs as well. Yet, there was a constant shortage for all 3 class.

Turning the weak into good would be a nice thing, but nerfing the strong, never good. I never play a blaster myself, but I cry for them when I see them nerfed. I never play a tanker either, but again I cry for them when I see what they did. I was a regen scrapper, and I did indeed cry a LOT and loudly. Today finding regen folks that accept to group on a regular basic is a feat.

Game Balancing is something ACHIEVERS will see as counter-productive, as it destroy what they achieve. Socialisers might say it is good, but the fact is they don't care much. The only peoples who have a strong need for game balancing are the PvP oriented players.

Saying that PvE need game balancing is funny. It doesn't. I have played EQ for years and I can tell you, EQ is not well balanced, never was and never will. Yet EQ PvE success is unmatched except by WoW, and WoW success has not much to do with Game Balancing precisely.

CoH/CoV is more balanced then ever. Is it more successful then ever? It should, just after the release of CoV and it is nicely done.

Saying Game Balancing is needed in PvE is plainly absurb, in old EQ for example, I see the most unbalance stuff going on for years, like quad kiting, strong class, weak class, peoples where looooving the PvE, and it has nothing to do with Game Balancing. EQ limit itself and nearly stop doing Game Balancing after some critical flaws at the Kunark era on this topic. And guess what, EQ is the benchmark on which WoW based itself to understand PvE. And guess what, despite some initial game balancing, I didn't see much game balancing in WoW for quite sometimes...I guess they are mixed about the PvE and the PvP and they start to understand that PvE is better without Game Balancing, as long as the class are FUN and have a reason to be played.

Having 90% of the players playing only the top 4 class/ATs is not even an issue in PvE, as peoples are playing and happy. You just have to figure how to make the others class/ATs appealing, you hardly have to balance anything at all. What you want in PvE is more peoples playing and them having good grouping option, Game Balance is irrelevant...especially if less peoples play because of it or if some have less grouping options because of it. Game Balancing is not even remotedly close to be a concern in PvE. Of course, prior the launch is always a good time to do some, while improving the game is the focus, not balancing the game. Balance is irrelevant if it doesn't improve the game. In old EQ my favorite group include 2 clerics, 2 wizards and 2 chanters, you can replace the 2 wizards with rangers or druids and it would still be GREAT. This show a total lack of balancing, yet an extremely grear PvE experience.

Turning the Blasters, the Tankers and the Regens folks into lame-toon greatly harm CoH/CoV, it hurt the PvE a LOT. These peoples where playing, they where happy, they where grouping as well. Now the few regens that remains on the server are auto-declining group invite (the worst of the regen lot players-base, still it is their right to be the worst), the blasters have lost their pro-active fury and have been less populars and the tankers...they dwindle...this balancing hurt the PvE a LOT. Saying balancing is good for PvE is wrong, you remove the very reason the peoples where playing these characters. ED, LOL. I can't believe the devs really made ED. They are indeed very lucky to have such great players, they exit relatively unscatched considering how bad ED was, look at SWG if you want an idea of how this balancing could have ended. I just can't understand how they come to this conclusion about balancing...unless I think about PvP.

I know a LOT of my friends that did enjoy this or that feature, most of the time unbalanced. I have still to find 1 of my friend that enjoy Game Balancing. Only 1. I doesn't find any. Some will rationalise it, but they won't play the game because of it, they won't be playing longer because of it. They accept it, this is the best answer I ever saw from them toward balancing. I know many of them that leave a game because of balancing. So, on 1 side for balancing, you have peoples leaving the game and on another you have peoples accepting it, merely. I will admit that I have no PvP friend at all, it just never happen simply because we have vastly different tastes, I have nothing against PvP, yet I won't make a friend because of his PvP interest obviously! So again, from a PvE point of view, Game Balancing is HURTING mmos, not helping them.

Weijyan · July 2006

Originally posted by Anofalye

Hehe, I will end with our started debate, because I think we both said all we have about Keymapping, I won't change my mind since I doesn't feel you prove your point and you think that I am not even logic!

For this point, I mostly disagree. In PvE balancing is irrelevant, as long as every AT as a good reason to be group-worthy. Nobody will ever say that in old EQ for example there was balance, there was none. Bards where ultimately strong, yet ultimately annoying to play. Chanters and clerics where very strongs as well. Yet, there was a constant shortage for all 3 class.

This simply demonstrates your lack of knowledge of mmos. The three classes you listed were also the 3 hardest/most annoying classes to play. Of course there was a shortage. They were more powerful because that was the only way a lot of people would even consider them.

Turning the weak into good would be a nice thing, but nerfing the strong, never good. I never play a blaster myself, but I cry for them when I see them nerfed. I never play a tanker either, but again I cry for them when I see what they did. I was a regen scrapper, and I did indeed cry a LOT and loudly. Today finding regen folks that accept to group on a regular basic is a feat.

For once, we agree on something. Nerfing is the last resort of a developer that is out of ideas. And if you think your regen scrapper was hit hard, you should see what they did to my poor /sr scrapper. Not only did they cut my base defense score in half (i5), they cut how much I could boost that score in half (ed/i6), then took the only power that worked (elude) and cut it in half (i7).

Game Balancing is something ACHIEVERS will see as counter-productive, as it destroy what they achieve. Socialisers might say it is good, but the fact is they don't care much. The only peoples who have a strong need for game balancing are the PvP oriented players.

Saying that PvE need game balancing is funny. It doesn't. I have played EQ for years and I can tell you, EQ is not well balanced, never was and never will. Yet EQ PvE success is unmatched except by WoW, and WoW success has not much to do with Game Balancing precisely.

CoH/CoV is more balanced then ever. Is it more successful then ever? It should, just after the release of CoV and it is nicely done.

Actually, when tested I list as an observer with something like 78%, with socializer at the bottom with 13%. I fail to see the point of why people pay for an mmo, only to use it as a glorified chat room. I do not even team all that often.

But, again, you are well off the mark and displaying a severe lack of knowledge. Everybody player that I know, whether they pvp or not, is concerned about game balance. PvE absolutely needs to be balaced. I am not talking about subscriptions, I am talking about what classes are taken. Take an honest look at CoX and tell me you have not seen people change what they are playing based on the pve balance changes. If you can do that, then I will have to call you a liar. PvE balance absolutely effects how people play what.

For example, look at the regen boost gms and avs got in I7. Defenders and controllers with -regen suddenly became more power to groups because of what they could do. As a result, they became far more common.

And people using EQ as a basis has always annoyed me. UO was far more popular for far longer, well before EQ was made, but is never brought up because it is not 3d. And it has always strived for pve balance.

As for CoV, its release did as much harm as good. While it did bring a lot of old players back (temporarily) and did bring in a number of new players, more players that I know have quit since I6 went live than before. Though I do find it quite funny that you actually think the game is better balanced now than it was pre-I6/CoV. While general at's may be a little better balanced, individual powersets are far less balanced.

Saying Game Balancing is needed in PvE is plainly absurb, in old EQ for example, I see the most unbalance stuff going on for years, like quad kiting, strong class, weak class, peoples where looooving the PvE, and it has nothing to do with Game Balancing. EQ limit itself and nearly stop doing Game Balancing after some critical flaws at the Kunark era on this topic. And guess what, EQ is the benchmark on which WoW based itself to understand PvE. And guess what, despite some initial game balancing, I didn't see much game balancing in WoW for quite sometimes...I guess they are mixed about the PvE and the PvP and they start to understand that PvE is better without Game Balancing, as long as the class are FUN and have a reason to be played.

What is absurd is for you to say it does not matter. If you cannot even admit that game balance matters to somebody other than you, then my entire arguement is lost to you. Game balance is important to everybody, unless they use the game as a glorified chat room. (AP statue sitters/uo bank sitters)

Having 90% of the players playing only the top 4 class/ATs is not even an issue in PvE, as peoples are playing and happy. You just have to figure how to make the others class/ATs appealing, you hardly have to balance anything at all. What you want in PvE is more peoples playing and them having good grouping option, Game Balance is irrelevant...especially if less peoples play because of it or if some have less grouping options because of it. Game Balancing is not even remotedly close to be a concern in PvE. Of course, prior the launch is always a good time to do some, while improving the game is the focus, not balancing the game. Balance is irrelevant if it doesn't improve the game. In old EQ my favorite group include 2 clerics, 2 wizards and 2 chanters, you can replace the 2 wizards with rangers or druids and it would still be GREAT. This show a total lack of balancing, yet an extremely grear PvE experience.

Turning the Blasters, the Tankers and the Regens folks into lame-toon greatly harm CoH/CoV, it hurt the PvE a LOT. These peoples where playing, they where happy, they where grouping as well. Now the few regens that remains on the server are auto-declining group invite (the worst of the regen lot players-base, still it is their right to be the worst), the blasters have lost their pro-active fury and have been less populars and the tankers...they dwindle...this balancing hurt the PvE a LOT. Saying balancing is good for PvE is wrong, you remove the very reason the peoples where playing these characters. ED, LOL. I can't believe the devs really made ED. They are indeed very lucky to have such great players, they exit relatively unscatched considering how bad ED was, look at SWG if you want an idea of how this balancing could have ended. I just can't understand how they come to this conclusion about balancing...unless I think about PvP.

I know a LOT of my friends that did enjoy this or that feature, most of the time unbalanced. I have still to find 1 of my friend that enjoy Game Balancing. Only 1. I doesn't find any. Some will rationalise it, but they won't play the game because of it, they won't be playing longer because of it. They accept it, this is the best answer I ever saw from them toward balancing. I know many of them that leave a game because of balancing. So, on 1 side for balancing, you have peoples leaving the game and on another you have peoples accepting it, merely. I will admit that I have no PvP friend at all, it just never happen simply because we have vastly different tastes, I have nothing against PvP, yet I won't make a friend because of his PvP interest obviously! So again, from a PvE point of view, Game Balancing is HURTING mmos, not helping them.

*shakes his head*

You are a lost cause. You cannot even see how game balance is important outside of pvp. The only reason pve 'balance' is hurting mmos is because they are nerfing to get that balance. As I stated above, nerfing is a sign that the devs are out of ideas and resorting to the easiest/worst method to try and find that balance. It is also a sign that they have little clue as to what players actually want, or pay any attention to it. Especially when they take powersets that are already weaker than the rest and nerf them again.

Since you cannot even see how pve balance is important, I do not see the point in continuing this conversation. After all, if you cannot even admit there is an opposing view, how can you ever be convinced of said point of view?

Anofalye · July 2006

Beside saying I am a lost cause, that I am clueless and so on, you don't bring much. The fact you don't understand my logic doesn't make it any less logical.

Since you like the test about persons personality, if I recall well I score:

100% achiever

33% explorer

40% socialiser

26% killer

(for the total of 200%...it was impossible to score more than 100% obviously)

Game Balancing destroy achievements, and achievement is the main reason MANY peoples play MMOs. At least the achievers. I never build a group myself, but I never turn a group offer unless I can't commit to it for any reason (been sick and afk a lot, been about to log, been drunk). Thinking game balancing helps PvE is incredibly flawed, it only help PRIOR character creation. Once the character creation is done, any balancing is condemn to hurt PvE. I have to see 1 case of game balancing that clearly helps a game, yet I saw MANY case where it hurt it a lot. I never see someone playing a game because they did some Game Balancing and nerfs others, I see them quit however when they are nerfed.

Really, peoples have to think more on WHY we play MMOs...mmos offers 1 major aspect that other games doesn't: ACHIEVEMENTS! If you do game balancing, you are destroying these achievements. I am sure you can understand easily that even if your SR scrapper would gain every edge in the game, he would never be more than a shadow of what he was. Thereby, all your achievements meants nothing. In your case, you are not mainly an achiever, maybe you can survive this game balancing...but an achiever? I doubt it. In all reality, for me to be playing any REGEN scrapper atm, I would require a salary to endure it! Which is quite far from what it was. Remove the Game Balancing they done and I would still enjoy this character, especially if I figure something more I can achieve!

As to the comment about bards/clerics/chanters been hard to play, I agree for bards. But I disagree for chanters and clerics. Don't tell me it was that hard, yes there was SOME challenges, especially when you solo, but in groups, a chanters and a cleric could both be fun and relatively easy to play. The good cleric has to check the HPS in the group box, that ain't that hard nor that tedius. The good chanter has to check his environement and mesmerize adds, if I can do it, nearly anyone with a little of goodwill can, my reflexs-coordinations are slightly, but significantly under-par, I can't swim for example and I really did try a LOT. There was FAR more clerics then about any other class in old EQ, yet every group want 1 cleric. Even the most popular class would find it hard to provide 1 member for EVERY group. Necromancers, Mages, Warriors, Paladins, Rangers, Druids, name them all, all of them where less numerous then clerics. Chanters where somewhat a rarity, because they don't deal damage themselves (charm), they don't heal, they don't tank...yet, they have such a crucial role. There was more chanters than any other intel class, yet they where soooo heavily required and still far less numerous than clerics, they appear as a rarity. The fact you believe clerics and chanters where a rarity show just how much you didn't analyze and understand EQ. Clerics where the single most popular class! LOL. Chanters, still the most popular INTEL class. Bards where really rare however, twisting is such a pain. See, the fact clerics seem to be not that numerous is that the NEEDS for them was constant, no matter the hours or the moment of the day. If for any reason the guys playing clerics can't log, there were group not adventuring and fighting over the remaining clerics. If the rangers doesn't log, the groups didn't even notice, they pick a SK or a Druid and it was just fine.

The day they change the game so I was no longer able to solo monsters and AVs, I did know there was something wrong with these devs. Once a player can do something, you really have to think twice before removing this from the player. Where once there was some peoples soloing Monsters, now there is emptiness. Game Balancing did this emptiness. As long as this soloing was not hurting grouping (it wasn't), I hardly see how someone can justify this game balancing beside...for PvP. I was grouping a LOT, I was involved, I was doing my best. Soloing hard stuff was cool, but never the first option, some AVs where not solo-able (like Tyrant and the Clockwork King). I don't see what it gave to anyone to remove this solo-ability, while it did kill a part of the game. Maybe the AVs, if they where linked to a badge I could understand, but the monsters? Not linked to anything? How is changing that anything but hurting? Peoples can't do what they use to. And don't you think it was easy, it was quite hard. The only thing that I remember harder than soloing Valkyries are all in old EQ, like soloing a rune spell from a mob who kill you in 1 tick, now that was plainly crazy and using every bit of imagination I have, every edge I have, and even then I was only having like 1 chance on 20 to succeed...yet I was succeeding and selling these runes for the greatest glee. It was a feat! Soloing Valkyrie was a decent feat in itself and in fact, my fondest soloing memory in CoH (I have better grouping memories, but that is another point).

It is you who can't see how Game Balancing destroy everything, the very reason why we play.

Weijyan · July 2006

I did more than say you were a lost cause and clueless. If you had bothered to actually read my posts, you would have seen that I answered all of your "they had to do it for a reason" comments. They did do it for a reason. They were mimicing the common fps keymaps. But, since you obviously missed that above, I doubt you will see it here, so let me highlight it for you:

They were mimicing the keymap from popular fps games.

For future notice, you have to actually have logic in order for somebody to fail to grasp it. But then, you cannot be bothered to actually pay attention to what is being said, so why am I not surprised that this was your focus?

And because I listed what my score was in the achiever and socializer, I suddenly like the tests? You are the one who brought socializers and achievers up first.

How do you get to the (extremely inaccurate) conclusion that game balance destroys achievement? If you need an extremely unbalanced setting for your character to be super strong in to have any achievements, then you still have none. Your 'many examples of game balance hurting pve' not withstanding, I have seen many where it has helped.

And I am not talking about nerfs. I hate nerfs. I loathe nerfs will every fiber of my being. I firmly believe that nerfing is evil beyond anything humanly possible, and to actually desire a nerf, you have to be possessed. But you are equating game balance with nerfs, which should never, ever be the case.

"Really, peoples have to think more on WHY we play MMOs...mmos offers 1 major aspect that other games doesn't: ACHIEVEMENTS! "

People play mmo's for a variety of reasons. Yours is obviously for the vague aspect of achievements, which you falsely believe that any form of balance would destroy. The players I know, on the other hand, would rather have their achievements in the real world and just play mmo's for fun.

" I am sure you can understand easily that even if your SR scrapper would gain every edge in the game, he would never be more than a shadow of what he was. Thereby, all your achievements meants nothing. In your case, you are not mainly an achiever, maybe you can survive this game balancing...but an achiever? I doubt it."

I am sure this is hard for you to accept, but people do have differing opinions from you. I can still be primarily an achiever (my highest score in the above mentioned test) and like game balance. By what you said in your previous posts, my /sr should be at it's pinnacle of achievement, having been nerfed into hell and back. Since it was already the weakest of the scrapper secondaries, and is now so far below any of the others it is just stupid, anything I do with that scrapper should be worth more. But it is not. It was worth more when the character was any fun to play.

If my character had any advantage, I would be happy, Right now, though, he is completely unbalanced and borderline worthless. He cannot keep up with any other scrapper with any other secondary, nor can he often keep up with most of the squishies. And before you ask, yes he is fully respec'ed to take the maximum 'advantage' of ED.

"In all reality, for me to be playing any REGEN scrapper atm, I would require a salary to endure it! Which is quite far from what it was. Remove the Game Balancing they done and I would still enjoy this character, especially if I figure something more I can achieve!"

So, because you hate the nerfs to regen (which, despite being exceedingly bad nerfs, is still FAR superior to /sr), that means that game balance is what ruined it? I really hate to break this to you, but the gap between regen and sr is larger now than it was even during beta.

"As to the comment about bards/clerics/chanters been hard to play, I agree for bards. But I disagree for chanters and clerics. Don't tell me it was that hard, yes there was SOME challenges, especially when you solo, but in groups, a chanters and a cleric could both be fun and relatively easy to play."

Um... You are completely ignoring the 'or annoying' aspect to why people are not playing them. I never found even the bard to be overly hard to play, but I did find it quite annoying to play. On the other hand, I did find the cleric harder to play because I do not really have that mindset. One of my friends, however is the best healer I have ever seen in every game we have ever played together, yet thinks bards are hard. It all depends on how you play, and most people find those three classes annoying to try and play. This is also why scrappers and tankers were so popular early really early on in CoH. They were, in general, the easiest at's to learn to play. But enough about EQ. I quit playing that game long ago and have no further desire to talk about it.

The point is, your reasoning for why the keymapping is as it is is completely off base. But then, I already answered that not only earlier in this post, but in my prior post. And you clearly ignored it, since I 'don't bring much'.

"It is you who can't see how Game Balancing destroy everything, the very reason why we play."

Maybe if you had ever given an actual reason why you thought that, I might have been able to consider it. Instead, all you have said is that I know that it does. Which it does not. Having to suffer though not being an ub3r character might be a reason for you to quit, but not being Superman actually makes my in-game achievements worth more to me.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

They were mimicing the keymap from popular fps games.
How do you get to the (extremely inaccurate) conclusion that game balance destroys achievement? If you need an extremely unbalanced setting for your character to be super strong in to have any achievements, then you still have none. Your 'many examples of game balance hurting pve' not withstanding, I have seen many where it has helped.
I am sure this is hard for you to accept, but people do have differing opinions from you. I can still be primarily an achiever (my highest score in the above mentioned test) and like game balance. By what you said in your previous posts, my /sr should be at it's pinnacle of achievement, having been nerfed into hell and back. Since it was already the weakest of the scrapper secondaries, and is now so far below any of the others it is just stupid, anything I do with that scrapper should be worth more. But it is not. It was worth more when the character was any fun to play.
The point is, your reasoning for why the keymapping is as it is is completely off base. But then, I already answered that not only earlier in this post, but in my prior post. And you clearly ignored it, since I 'don't bring much'.

First, you must find it hard to maintain a long discussion on the internet, as you are constantly assuming, making assumption and attacking the other person. You remain civil in the wording, but your mastery of the english level allow you to ignore all form of civility beyond the superficial level.

I am not entirely sure who has more troubles accepting that other have different opinions. I did recognize yours, I accept it. But I don't convert to it, despite all your "logical arguments". In life you have to accept that you can't win every fight, you have to select the very few that matter to you. I dunno why this one matter, or why you keep going on, but I am inclined to do the same.

As to saying I get my fun from games lacking balance a LOT solely, well, I am not particuliarly looking for balanced or unbalanced game, I just want to do good and progress in the game, weither it is balanced or imbalanced, as long as I can trust it and rest assured I AM the main factor affecting my character, not balancing/nerfing.

Since you keep bringing back the keymapping, they where mimicing the keymap from popular fps games, that is still an incomplete answer. Why did they pick this form for a RPG that is extremely real-time oriented, but lacking a lot on the ACTION aspect. My reflexs couldn't withstand any action game worthy of this name, such a realisation is natural and I have no credit with that, CoH is the FASTEST mmorpg on the market IMO, yet it is not really an action-game. So, why would they choose to mimic FPS games? Maybe it was unintentionnally that they made this choice, but I firmly believe they choose it because they looove a PvP setting and FPS games are heavily PvP-driven. Don't tell me they pick that just like that, for no real reason. A project costing THAT much, there was a reason, although possibly unintentional, behind this choice, and I firmly believe it was PvP. FPS games are all ACTION games if I can believe what I heard, CoH is not an action game, it is the FASTEST MMORPG, still not an action game.

You say you where an observer at 87% and now you say you are mostly an achiever, you are definitely confusing me on this topic. I don't even know what an observer is, yet I know it is not an achiever! They are not exclusive, but having 87% in a score pretty much make it your central focus I would think, no? Anyway, I am not questionning what you are, I do believe you. I am just confused with your previous statement.

Game Balancing...you are an achiever and you actually crave for it? I am speechless. What can I say? I don't understand you and never will...achieving can't be done if the rules are not fixed, settled. You can't change the rules in the middle of a game, that is not fair. It is most unfair. Maybe you want to explains to me how you find Game Balancing fun, because I clearly can't. I have to PROGRESS, and once this process is started, anything coming in it ways will strongly be annoying me especially setbacks brought by Game Balancing, yes even other players, yet I would not ditch a group, I might refuse to group folks who where extremely unefficient for some times, for evil reasons within me, yet in time, I will group them anew...it is just that I need my PROGRESS. They are a challenge and I loooove challenges, but sometimes my needs for progress outmatch my love of challenge, in these times I progress before returning later to some challenge. Game Balancing stand in the way of this progress if done AFTER I start my character, since it come from the devs, the peoples making the rules, I am extremely unforgiving on this topic, THEY are responsible for MY PROGRESS and they just destroy it. Grouping other peoples and talking and all is fun also in a MMO, but there is nothing like earning another level for me! Unless this level become pointless by some Game Balancing. Again, I doesn't understand how a fellow achiever can find game balancing good...it is against everything in my being, it is not like I have a choice in that matter. Maybe you can try to explain, or maybe you have another huge part in you, I dunno.

About my personnal life...well...I am a Game Designer...soooo...yes...Gaming matter a LOT to me, I see it all the time in every form, hobby, work, social stuff...gaming is always rampant...so when you say peoples have a life beside gaming...I think I understand...maybe.

About your SR scrapper. I can only bow to your achievements, yet...I know I couldn't myself. I have to aim for the TOP, the BEST. If you deny me the best, I will just not do it unless it is work, for work I will accept it. But in a HOBBY, I work to be the BEST, I don't mind not succeeding, yet, I will always try for that and I will never accept less or settle for less. See my signature if you want to see the only point I find more annoying than Game Balancing!

I read all of what you said, yet you accuse me of not! I dunno what I can answer to that. I answer to what I care and what I believe, letting on the side what I doesn't want to answer for any reason. If you want me to focus on an aspect, feel free to underline it, but you can't assume that I will pick, inside your very long message, exactly the points you want me to pick. I have, exactly like you, a freewill and I will impact the discussion in a healthy way hopefully, not by obsequisouly following it.

Anyway, you really should learn to be less offensive, have I been 10 years younger, I would just have bash rather than talk quietly...I guess I am old!

PS: Often what we see in other persons are our main flaws, ourselves. Check the comments you put at me, I humbly think that many (not all) apply to you. I know I do the same all the time, with my flaws that is.

Weijyan · July 2006

"First, you must find it hard to maintain a long discussion on the internet, as you are constantly assuming, making assumption and attacking the other person. You remain civil in the wording, but your mastery of the english level allow you to ignore all form of civility beyond the superficial level."

Is that supposed to be an insult? Oh, I have mastery of English. 'Ware my vicious diction!

As for assuming, I am merely replying to your comments. Tell me what I have assumed and I will give you the quote that the said 'assumption' came from.

"I am not entirely sure who has more troubles accepting that other have different opinions. I did recognize yours, I accept it. But I don't convert to it, despite all your "logical arguments". In life you have to accept that you can't win every fight, you have to select the very few that matter to you. I dunno why this one matter, or why you keep going on, but I am inclined to do the same."

No, you are not accepting my opinion, or you would not keep going with the 'nobody cares about game balance in pve' stict. I can accept that you attribute everything to something that is not really the cause. I am trying to tell you that you do not care about game balance in pve, but the vast majourity of players I know do. But you keep ignoring that.

You also keep saying that having a character that is balanced against other characters makes it impossible to have any worthwhile achievements. This, I admit, I find relatively unbelievable that anybody actually thinks that. If that is your opinion, you are welcome to it. However, having your ub3r characters make achievements overly easy lessens said achievements in my eyes.

I have no problem accepting differing opinions. I actively surround myself with people who think differently than I do. Being a 'transplant' (immigrant), it is not overly hard for me to do. My closest friends are politically opposite of me in most ways (yet we manage to agree on most of the larger issues, oddly enough), for example. I find it makes personal growth faster than if I were to be surrounded by people who think like me.

I can accept not winning. Quite frankly, I do not really care about this arguement, even. I just found your apparent attitude of 'I am right and you are wrong because I said so. No, I am not giving any evidence to back me up, you just have to accept it.' to be rather tiring.

"Since you keep bringing back the keymapping, they where mimicing the keymap from popular fps games, that is still an incomplete answer. Why did they pick this form for a RPG that is extremely real-time oriented, but lacking a lot on the ACTION aspect."

Well, keymapping is what the thread is/was about, not what your opinions of game balance are. I keep bringing it back to keymapping because of the untrue claim that the keymap was done for pvp in the game.

And actually, I had answered that above, too, but you skipped right by it (as usual). They were trying to draw the fps crowd into a mmo setting. They were attempting to make an action mmo. Granted, what they ended up with was far more mmo than action, but that is still what their stated intentions were. Even you notice it, by stating that CoX is the fastest mmo on the market to date. That was their intention, they wanted an action/mmo hybrid.

"You say you where an observer at 87% and now you say you are mostly an achiever, you are definitely confusing me on this topic."

Mwahaha... Then my evul plan is working...

Okay, so I had a typo. I was thinking ahead of where I was typing and my typing accidentally caught up. Sue me. Do I still have a mastery of the English language? (not even my first language)

But yes, my central focus is and has always been achievements (i.e. doing things). Granted, the last time I took the test EQ was still new, but I still play the same basic way. I still prefer doing things to, oh... say.. not doing things... I am quickly annoyed by those who treat mmo's as glorified chat rooms. PvP is secondary (at best) in mmos, as there are far better games to pvp in than any mmo. And I still love to explore (my second highest score).

But you never explained the premise behind your thought that balance destroys achievement.

"Game Balancing...you are an achiever and you actually crave for it? I am speechless. What can I say? I don't understand you and never will...achieving can't be done if the rules are not fixed, settled. You can't change the rules in the middle of a game, that is not fair."

I never said game balancing. What I did say was A BALANCED GAME. Again, if you actually bother to read my above post, you will see my mini-rant on nerfing. I would much rather have the powers reset to I2 or I3 than the current I7 abomination. I say I2 or I3 because one of them gave many powersets a boost, helping to bring the powersets closer to a balance with-out nerfing any of the others.

Your average fps is far more balanced to pvp than any mmo will ever be, and I prefer fps games to pvp in. That Battlefield 1942 is more balanced for pvp than, say, EQ (which you keep going back to), does nothing to diminish my achievements when playing that game online. Granted Battlefield Vietnam did have that one patch that I hated (the anti-armour not only had the biggest boom for anti-armour, but a .50 mm Browning - way too powerful, but hella fun to play).

While I hated that patch, it was perfectly understandable and actually makes my achievements with that class worth more now. Now, when I say I have 50 kills with my anti-armour, it is because of skill and not because I had the biggest @#$%ing guns in the game. By the way, while many considered that a nerf, it was actually a fix. You were never intended to have both the law rockets and the Browning .50 at the same time.

" Maybe you want to explains to me how you find Game Balancing fun, because I clearly can't."

Again, I never said game balancing was fun. I said a balanced game was more fun for me to play than an unbalanced one.

"About your SR scrapper. I can only bow to your achievements, yet...I know I couldn't myself. I have to aim for the TOP, the BEST. If you deny me the best, I will just not do it unless it is work, for work I will accept it. But in a HOBBY, I work to be the BEST, I don't mind not succeeding, yet, I will always try for that and I will never accept less or settle for less. See my signature if you want to see the only point I find more annoying than Game Balancing! "

So, you are a tweaker/munchking, then. You always need the ub3r weapon/armour. You always have to have the most powerful classes. So, to you, having your character ub3red out is the achievement?

"Anyway, you really should learn to be less offensive, have I been 10 years younger, I would just have bash rather than talk quietly...I guess I am old! "

I have not said anything with intentions of being offensive. Well, maybe beating you upside the virtual head a little bit in a not-really-serious "what are you thinking" type of way. However, what I have said is true. If you find that to be offensive, that is your baggage, not mine.

"PS: Often what we see in other persons are our main flaws, ourselves. Check the comments you put at me, I humbly think that many (not all) apply to you. I know I do the same all the time, with my flaws that is."

Hmm.. I called you out for saying that I did not bring much, when I answered everything you threw out. I called your reasoning into question, using my /sr as an example. And I pointed out that you blatantly ignored my answers to your comments that I left in multiple posts. Oh, and I pointed out that seemed incapable of accepting differing opinions, as until this last post, you had yet to admit that not everybody thinks balanced games suck.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan
Game balancing is 100% vital for pve, and to claim otherwise is to display a lack of understaning of how mmo's work. There has to be a balance in pve or the unbalanced strong at's will be over-used and the unbalanced weak at's will be rarely/never used. Think about how the nerfs and changes have effected which at's are seen in pve and tell me again that pve balance is not vital.

Actually, it is not weird at all. Reasoning and logic are not really the same thing. Reasoning is merely the ability to think. Logic is the ability to think clearly and rationally with-out prejudice. Your thoughts were decent, but there was not any logic to them. Sorry.

1st, in this post you rouse me about GAME BALANCING, might I add that I precisely pinpoint once the game is started as well, as to impact already existing character, you alter the rules.

Yet, you just reduce what you say to BALANCING

The second paragraph is an assumption, you can't see logic, thereby there are none. If I can't see, nor understand, there is none. That is quite a leap of faith.

I will divide in many small messages since this big thingy is starting to confuse me a lot.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan

For future notice, you have to actually have logic in order for somebody to fail to grasp it. But then, you cannot be bothered to actually pay attention to what is being said, so why am I not surprised that this was your focus?

Assumption combined with insulting.

How do you get to the (extremely inaccurate) conclusion that game balance destroys achievement? If you need an extremely unbalanced setting for your character to be super strong in to have any achievements, then you still have none. Your 'many examples of game balance hurting pve' not withstanding, I have seen many where it has helped.

Assumption again, in 3 sentences in this paragraphs, you are outdoing yourself. First, I am not at an extreme inaccurate conclusion, this is my opinion and you try to broaden it beyond my words. Game Balancing, always in the context of a MMO, post-launch, once the characters have been done. I have nothing against it PRIOR character creation from the players. Second, why do you assume I crave for unbalanced setting, I don't ask for that, I don't want that, I want devs who can stick to THEIR rules and remains true to them, for the best and for the worst, for the balance and the lack of balance as well. Third, my examples of game balance hurting PvE are not completely off the track as you may say, I see countless players leave a game because of it, stop playing, losing motivation. I have yet to see someone from class B be playing the game because class A was balanced, it just doesn't work that way in PvE since peoples care for only 1 thing, themselves. Yes they can be nice and all, but the reason they play is how THEIR character are, not how the rest of the game is beeing constantly balanced and changed.
And I am not talking about nerfs. I hate nerfs. I loathe nerfs will every fiber of my being. I firmly believe that nerfing is evil beyond anything humanly possible, and to actually desire a nerf, you have to be possessed. But you are equating game balance with nerfs, which should never, ever be the case.

Game Balancing once the characters are created are automatically a nerf for someone in game, unless you UP all the characters and strangely enough, when Game Balancing goes UP, peoples hardly complain about it...considering how you answer my others messages, saying I NEED lack of balance to play super strong characters (which is not the case, I will be as strong as I can, within the game rules and limits established when I created my character) is obviously understanding that my troubles with Game Balancing is the way DOWN. I never complain because they improve a character, I always applaud this.

People play mmo's for a variety of reasons. Yours is obviously for the vague aspect of achievements, which you falsely believe that any form of balance would destroy. The players I know, on the other hand, would rather have their achievements in the real world and just play mmo's for fun.

Again an assumption, falsely believe that any form of balance would destroy. First I have no problem with balance itself, as I said it, it is Game Balancing DURING after I start playing my character. You are indeed very lucky, of the dozen of gamers I know, all the PvE that I know doesn't appreciate Game Balancing once the game is started. In my friends, the only persons that appreciate Game Balancing after the characters are created are PvP fans. As PvP fans they don't try to tell me what PvE is, they nod and smile, they do like balancing in PvE, but that doesn't change the fact that they are PvP fans and thereby their opinion toward PvE is automatically biaised by their PvP love. I said it, I repeat it, my friends, dozen of them, in RL, all the PvE players (those who doesn't get involve in the PvP with maybe a few exceptions to try or please other, yet not sticking with it for even a mere week), these players dislike Game Balancing once they created their characters.

If my character had any advantage, I would be happy, Right now, though, he is completely unbalanced and borderline worthless. He cannot keep up with any other scrapper with any other secondary, nor can he often keep up with most of the squishies. And before you ask, yes he is fully respec'ed to take the maximum 'advantage' of ED.

Assumption again, you think I would doubt your playing achievements, your in-game prowess, you capabilities. You bring the, before you ask he is fully respec'ed. As a matter of facts, I never question your character skill or aptitude, it is obvious to me that someone who play a "much weaker" character is at least equally skill in the game as I am if not more. So no, it was not ever going to be my point. If it please you to know, MY scrapper is not respected. I will never respect it. The devs betray their rules, respecting to the new rules would be an act of obedience and acceptance. I only accept what I find legitimate, and these nerfs will never be accepted by me. This scrapper is a monument to what it was once. It is in the museem in all it past glory and not, I will never "adapt" it, I could, I won't.

So, because you hate the nerfs to regen (which, despite being exceedingly bad nerfs, is still FAR superior to /sr), that means that game balance is what ruined it? I really hate to break this to you, but the gap between regen and sr is larger now than it was even during beta.

If you would be starving in Ethiopia, it would not make my character any better. My character was about 400% of what it is now, nothing you would do can change that. (400% is a mere estimate, I didn't give it much though, it seems right to me, but I can be off by +/- 100%)

Um... You are completely ignoring the 'or annoying' aspect to why people are not playing them. I never found even the bard to be overly hard to play, but I did find it quite annoying to play. On the other hand, I did find the cleric harder to play because I do not really have that mindset. One of my friends, however is the best healer I have ever seen in every game we have ever played together, yet thinks bards are hard. It all depends on how you play, and most people find those three classes annoying to try and play. This is also why scrappers and tankers were so popular early really early on in CoH. They were, in general, the easiest at's to learn to play. But enough about EQ. I quit playing that game long ago and have no further desire to talk about it.

An assumption, chanters where annoying to play? Please explain, I never find that annoying to play and it was my main character. If it was not for raiding, I would still be playing that character. It might not be your playstyle, but saying it is annoying...that is a leap.

The point is, your reasoning for why the keymapping is as it is is completely off base. But then, I already answered that not only earlier in this post, but in my prior post. And you clearly ignored it, since I 'don't bring much'.

Assumption again: I clearly ignore it.

Maybe if you had ever given an actual reason why you thought that, I might have been able to consider it. Instead, all you have said is that I know that it does. Which it does not. Having to suffer though not being an ub3r character might be a reason for you to quit, but not being Superman actually makes my in-game achievements worth more to me.

ub3r character? I don't care about been uber or not, I care to dream about becoming it and having access to it and believes in it.

Anofalye · July 2006

Originally posted by Weijyan
Is that supposed to be an insult? Oh, I have mastery of English. 'Ware my vicious diction!
Assuming again. Why do you think that I want to insult you or praise you? I merely state what I understand from reading you.
As for assuming, I am merely replying to your comments. Tell me what I have assumed and I will give you the quote that the said 'assumption' came from.
Assumption are underline in the last posts, feel free to consider them.

No, you are not accepting my opinion, or you would not keep going with the 'nobody cares about game balance in pve' stict. I can accept that you attribute everything to something that is not really the cause. I am trying to tell you that you do not care about game balance in pve, but the vast majourity of players I know do. But you keep ignoring that.

Well, because 1 person on the internet claims he is a PvE player, I have to change my wording and beliefs? I am sorry, I will still say that nobody in PvE enjoys Game Balancing until I see peoples in RL that are PvE players to actually believe otherwise. Among dozens of friends, none of them enjoys the Game Balancing post-character creation, which are nearly always nerfs, since I never consider bonus to players as "balancing", it is upping them, making them interesting to play, which is good.

As to the vast majority of players you are mentionning, that again are mere words. I go into internet cafe, I talk with players, I hear what they says, I have friends, I meet folks I guild with. The only peoples who actually enjoy GB are PvP-players, it doesn't matter if they are doing some PvE, they remains PvP fans. You can't remove that, it is part of what they are and what they are enjoying.

You also keep saying that having a character that is balanced against other characters makes it impossible to have any worthwhile achievements. This, I admit, I find relatively unbelievable that anybody actually thinks that. If that is your opinion, you are welcome to it. However, having your ub3r characters make achievements overly easy lessens said achievements in my eyes.

Assumptions. I have nothing against balance. I have everything against Game Balancing once the character is created, once the rules have been established. You are trying to turn me to ridicule by putting thoughs that aren't mines into my mouth. Game Balancing, aka changing rules, is the problem. Not balance itself. Balance is irrelevent, good if there, but I can live without. But removing my achievements, my progression, that is NOT acceptable for me. Once my character is started, rules have to be set in stone.

I have no problem accepting differing opinions. I actively surround myself with people who think differently than I do. Being a 'transplant' (immigrant), it is not overly hard for me to do. My closest friends are politically opposite of me in most ways (yet we manage to agree on most of the larger issues, oddly enough), for example. I find it makes personal growth faster than if I were to be surrounded by people who think like me.

The peoples in my surrounding don't agree necessarily on the larger issues, nor disagree, they all have differents opinions and that is great that way. I am for the death penalty against impair driving, you won't see many peoples sharing my point of view. I am for legalisation of soft drug but only for the 40+, again you won't find many peoples sharing my point of view, they either want it to all adults or to none, yet to me it seem that after 40+, peoples can be in pain and as a pain relief, this should be an acceptable means...yet...anyway, the point is...you are trying to say I can't accept different opinions while in facts, I accept them, I just don't join them. Convincing me will take a LOT more efforts than a message or two, even on some minor issue. Keymapping is a minor issue, while Game Balancing is a Major Issue.

I can accept not winning. Quite frankly, I do not really care about this arguement, even. I just found your apparent attitude of 'I am right and you are wrong because I said so. No, I am not giving any evidence to back me up, you just have to accept it.' to be rather tiring.

You see what you want, you read what you want. I just keep giving you reasons, explanations and a logic despite what you claims. You answer with a condescendant attitude about my lack of logic, evidence, and so on. Honestly, would you have remains on the keymapping, I would just have stop answering...but by touching Game Balancing, I can keep going on for many, many, many messages.

You say you can accept not winning, I believe you. However in this example, you keep coming back with insults, saying that I can't accept your point of view, while in fact you want me to convert to your side. It won't be happening about Game Balancing, if you really care about Keymapping, arm yourself, it is not impossible, but it will require far more and it is far from sure, 2 messages might do it while a hundred might fail...for Keymapping...for Game Balancing, I am set, there is no way to make me change belief, if it was in a working situation I can do a lot of obsequious concession, that would still not change my belief that once the player has created his character, the rules can't be altered.

"Since you keep bringing back the keymapping, they where mimicing the keymap from popular fps games, that is still an incomplete answer. Why did they pick this form for a RPG that is extremely real-time oriented, but lacking a lot on the ACTION aspect."
Well, keymapping is what the thread is/was about, not what your opinions of game balance are. I keep bringing it back to keymapping because of the untrue claim that the keymap was done for pvp in the game.
And actually, I had answered that above, too, but you skipped right by it (as usual). They were trying to draw the fps crowd into a mmo setting. They were attempting to make an action mmo. Granted, what they ended up with was far more mmo than action, but that is still what their stated intentions were. Even you notice it, by stating that CoX is the fastest mmo on the market to date. That was their intention, they wanted an action/mmo hybrid.

Assumption again, I 'skip' by it. I did answer it, to the extand I was caring, you rouse me on a topic that I care a LOT more about and then you complain that my focus switch to that? Keymapping is the topic granted, but you take a side argument I was giving as an example of a PvP constant focus of this team, and you say it is not PvP-oriented. Of course I would debate the aspect I care the most about.

I still think that your explanation about their motivation is incomplete, thinking they merely try to do a PvE FPS game...incomplete, I don't believe it for 1 moment. First, most FPS are PvP, second they always love PvP, as Game Balancing and Kemapping support it, as the change to IH been not a toggle but a timed power, thereby a LOT stronger in PvP and a LOT weaker in PvE...and soooo many other aspects.
"You say you where an observer at 87% and now you say you are mostly an achiever, you are definitely confusing me on this topic."
Mwahaha... Then my evul plan is working...
Okay, so I had a typo. I was thinking ahead of where I was typing and my typing accidentally caught up. Sue me. Do I still have a mastery of the English language? (not even my first language)

I don't even talk english on every day, and most of the time I talk in english with other french-speakers, and yes your written english is VERY good.

But yes, my central focus is and has always been achievements (i.e. doing things). Granted, the last time I took the test EQ was still new, but I still play the same basic way. I still prefer doing things to, oh... say.. not doing things... I am quickly annoyed by those who treat mmo's as glorified chat rooms. PvP is secondary (at best) in mmos, as there are far better games to pvp in than any mmo. And I still love to explore (my second highest score).

You are a PvP fan. Your point of view on Game Balancing in a PvE game is automatically PvP oriented, most of my PvP oriented friends enjoy Game Balancing in PvE. You can't detach yourself from who you are, I suppose that the vast majority of players that like Game Balancing in PvE games are also PvP fans, yet I dunno. This make my statement that Game Balancing is ruining PvE all the more strong, as I still have to find any non-PvP fan saying otherwise. You are not looking at the same things in a game that a non-PvP fan would. Just like a westerner like me could not go in Africa and forget that I am a westerner and adapt locally. Been a PvP fan is part of your root. When you talk about PvE, you always have that PvP twist in you.

Exactly like if I talk about solo, I am still a grouper foremost and this corrupt my point of view. Yet, I try and work hard on this aspect to rejoin soloers, so we can all be happy in a nice PvE game eventually. CoH was close...it was not it yet...Game Balancing made them leave with the accolades, the HOs and the IoPs.

But you never explained the premise behind your thought that balance destroys achievement.

If my character is 70% of his strengh after a Game Balancing, he was effectively destroyed. Now my scrapper is prolly 25% of what it was, or it was 400% of what it is now, depend from which side you want to consider these numbers...and as I said previously, this is an estimation.

I never said game balancing. What I did say was A BALANCED GAME. Again, if you actually bother to read my above post, you will see my mini-rant on nerfing. I would much rather have the powers reset to I2 or I3 than the current I7 abomination. I say I2 or I3 because one of them gave many powersets a boost, helping to bring the powersets closer to a balance with-out nerfing any of the others.

2 messages up, I quote you, Game Balancing was your word. Let's say it was all a big misunderstanding if you want. Yes you rant on nerfing, but you approve Game Balancing. Game Balancing is automatically a nerf if players are talking about it and considering it, yet it CAN be an UP move to characters in theory, yet I never see (might be happening) peoples talking about Game Balancing when a character gain powers, everyone applaud and say it was a good move.

Your average fps is far more balanced to pvp than any mmo will ever be, and I prefer fps games to pvp in. That Battlefield 1942 is more balanced for pvp than, say, EQ (which you keep going back to), does nothing to diminish my achievements when playing that game online. Granted Battlefield Vietnam did have that one patch that I hated (the anti-armour not only had the biggest boom for anti-armour, but a .50 mm Browning - way too powerful, but hella fun to play).

Again, your are a PvP fan, your view on PvE and Game Balancing can't be detach from who you are. Game Balancing hurt PvE games, at least to peoples who aren't PvP fans. Honestly, I barely recognize the name of the game, you could have tell me it was a plane simulation and I would not a react.

While I hated that patch, it was perfectly understandable and actually makes my achievements with that class worth more now. Now, when I say I have 50 kills with my anti-armour, it is because of skill and not because I had the biggest @#$%ing guns in the game. By the way, while many considered that a nerf, it was actually a fix. You were never intended to have both the law rockets and the Browning .50 at the same time.

PvP fan talking about Game Balancing in PvE can't be compare to a non-PvP fan talking about game balancing.

" Maybe you want to explains to me how you find Game Balancing fun, because I clearly can't."
Again, I never said game balancing was fun. I said a balanced game was more fun for me to play than an unbalanced one.

I quote you 2 messages up. And as a PvP player, I have no doubt that you see Game Balancing as a necessity, even in PvE, you can't change what you are, not even in PvE. To mee, Game Balancing AFTER character creation is cheating, changing the rules, abusing players. That is a PvE point of view, since balance is nice, not a must and certainly not a good reason to change the rules.

"About your SR scrapper. I can only bow to your achievements, yet...I know I couldn't myself. I have to aim for the TOP, the BEST. If you deny me the best, I will just not do it unless it is work, for work I will accept it. But in a HOBBY, I work to be the BEST, I don't mind not succeeding, yet, I will always try for that and I will never accept less or settle for less. See my signature if you want to see the only point I find more annoying than Game Balancing! "
So, you are a tweaker/munchking, then. You always need the ub3r weapon/armour. You always have to have the most powerful classes. So, to you, having your character ub3red out is the achievement?

The rewards, the final results, matter just as much as the path that lead to it. Yes, I am a powergamer, I have no shame in admitting that much. I didn't try to make you feel bad about your love of PvP, for some reason I pretty much feels that you are trying to make me feel bad. Let's just say that UberGuilds are full of SOCIALISERS, I have seen all the worst insults and try been thrown my way, from a social point of view that is. See, I will be the most kind player, very understanding, sweet, caring, working with the group...as long as I dream of reaching the TOP of what I crave for. You can look at me from high. I won't return to you this attitude. This is what I like...nothing is better than earning another level...with friends and a little beer make it a little better, but what matter is that new level!

It would also explain why you resent soo much the difference between a regen and SR scrapper, Regen are a LOT stronger in PvP with that change to Instant Healing not been a toggle anymore, yet to a PvE player, this is completely useless and I rather have my toggle back.

"Anyway, you really should learn to be less offensive, have I been 10 years younger, I would just have bash rather than talk quietly...I guess I am old! "
I have not said anything with intentions of being offensive. Well, maybe beating you upside the virtual head a little bit in a not-really-serious "what are you thinking" type of way. However, what I have said is true. If you find that to be offensive, that is your baggage, not mine.

Good enought, from a PvP fan point of view, the word offensive prolly doesn't have the same bearing than to a non-PvP fan! These are merely words from your perspective I assume, while from mine, as a PvE fan, and socialiser been my second (far behind) aspect, I see words as slightly more than just words. Nonetheless, you might try to consider this in your further interactions with non-PvP fans.

"PS: Often what we see in other persons are our main flaws, ourselves. Check the comments you put at me, I humbly think that many (not all) apply to you. I know I do the same all the time, with my flaws that is."
Hmm.. I called you out for saying that I did not bring much, when I answered everything you threw out. I called your reasoning into question, using my /sr as an example. And I pointed out that you blatantly ignored my answers to your comments that I left in multiple posts. Oh, and I pointed out that seemed incapable of accepting differing opinions, as until this last post, you had yet to admit that not everybody thinks balanced games suck.

Game Balancing, from a PvE achiever point of view, really lack. I never said PvP players and fans would think that way. It is unclear to me if you are more an achiever or a killer, but your killer side is strong indeed! Strong enough to invalidate your point of view on a pure PvE aspect.

Anyway, good night and till next debate!

Weijyan · July 2006

I am not sure why I am bothering. I am already bored with this 'debate'. This entire exercise is pointless.

"Second, why do you assume I crave for unbalanced setting, I don't ask for that, I don't want that"

Because you have said it over and over and over and over again. You keep insisting that game balance ruins pve, even with-out giving anything to back it up.

"Game Balancing once the characters are created are automatically a nerf for someone in game, unless you UP all the characters and strangely enough, when Game Balancing goes UP, peoples hardly complain about it..."

Which has always been my stance. Any balancing after a game goes gold needs to be to boost the weaker up, not knock the stronger down. I am very vocal about any and every nerf in a game I am playing, even when the nerf does not effect myself directly.

"considering how you answer my others messages, saying I NEED lack of balance to play super strong characters (which is not the case, I will be as strong as I can, within the game rules and limits established when I created my character) is obviously understanding that my troubles with Game Balancing is the way DOWN."

You have said repeatedly that you will always take the strongest character possible and do everything you can to make him/her/it the most powerful you can. You have also said that, if that character were no longer the strongest, his/her/its achievements no longer meant anything to you.

"Again an assumption, falsely believe that any form of balance would destroy."

It is not an assumption to say that you have said what you have said. You have said that game balance ruins pve.

" I said it, I repeat it, my friends, dozen of them, in RL, all the PvE players (those who doesn't get involve in the PvP with maybe a few exceptions to try or please other, yet not sticking with it for even a mere week), these players dislike Game Balancing once they created their characters."

That is because you are talking about nerfs. As I have noted above, you and I actually seem to agree about how evil nerfs are. I, however, am talking about balance.

"If you would be starving in Ethiopia, it would not make my character any better. My character was about 400% of what it is now, nothing you would do can change that. (400% is a mere estimate, I didn't give it much though, it seems right to me, but I can be off by +/- 100%)"

And you missed the entire point of that comment. You keep saying it is game balance that ruined your /regen. Yet, the changes left the game a great deal less balanced than it was before. There-fore, it could not be game balance that ruined your /regen. It was idiotic devs nerfing it. As much as you like to equate balance to nerfs, they are not the same thing.

"An assumption, chanters where annoying to play? Please explain, I never find that annoying to play and it was my main character. If it was not for raiding, I would still be playing that character. It might not be your playstyle, but saying it is annoying...that is a leap."

Again, you are ignoring the parts of my post that are convinient for you to ignore. If you bother to look, you will see that I talked about how different people have different opinions of the classes. I already pointed out that different people like different classes for different reasons. You never found chanters annoying, and this means that nobody did? Please... Could you be any more full of yourself? The fact still remains that you do not speak for everybody. I did not find chanters annoying, either, though my main was a bard. However, I could not play a cleric to save my (or anybody else's) life. I found them difficult and annoying to play. One of my best friends, however, thrived as a cleric, but could not handle a bard or chanter.

"Assumption again: I clearly ignore it."

If you did not ignore my prior answers to your questions and comments, then why do you continue to throw them out as if they were never answered?

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