Originally posted by SnaKey I think this should defnitally be put on the MMORPG.com vote thing.
Hey thanks for the support. Yeah, I wish they'd add an oficial poll about this issue, it'd be great to get the industry's attention. mmorpg.com just takes time......
Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by aaddam I kind of agree with some of what your saying but i still voted no, simple reason is,
You would still loose everything because you would have to start again and for me this is when the bordem kicks in and i move on to something new.
That is true, but you would not lose the game.
I have some games on my shelves that are nearly 10 years in age. Sometimes, once in a blue moon, I'll install one of them and just have a good laugh at the graphics, and enjoy the things that I had fogotten about and suddenly they pop back into memory out of nowhere. It's nice, ya know? U spend a lot of time with thse things (games), and it's good to know u can revist a portion of your past like that.
With MMOs.... it's over.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
I don't think it's a bad idea. I'd love to see publishers find a viable way to license the software to a third party so the game can live on in some form once it stops being profitable. I'm just not sure there really IS a viable way to do that. Say EQ closes down but Sony sells you a license to run a shard on your own server space. I don't think it's feasible for Sony to give you the right to alter the code in any way, because the potential for disastrous PR is enormous (ogres pimping off naked halflings in the East Commonlands and gnomes that cuss like sailors just won't do) and I suspect the legal implications of ownership are pretty complex as well. On the other hand, if you're not allowed to alter the code, that means Sony has to maintain tech support for you, which means you'll be paying some sort of service contract. Which means you'll probably need to be able to charge players to access your shard, which makes you sort of a franchisee at that point. And what happens when you close YOUR doors?
I voted "no", not because I think it's a bad idea, but because I don't think it's workable for a lot of reasons, some technical and some legal. I think it'd be great if publishers could convert their defunt MMOs into single player games that you can run locally, while allowing you to preserve the characters you invested your time in. It won't be an MMO any more, but you'd still "own" your character and you'd be able to take nostalgic trips through the game world for as long as you wanted. If they added in limited multiplayer support so you could play with a handful of friends, that'd be better yet.
Originally posted by Theo Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by aaddam I kind of agree with some of what your saying but i still voted no, simple reason is,
You would still loose everything because you would have to start again and for me this is when the bordem kicks in and i move on to something new.
That is true, but you would not lose the game.
I have some games on my shelves that are nearly 10 years in age. Sometimes, once in a blue moon, I'll install one of them and just have a good laugh at the graphics, and enjoy the things that I had fogotten about and suddenly they pop back into memory out of nowhere. It's nice, ya know? U spend a lot of time with thse things (games), and it's good to know u can revist a portion of your past like that.
With MMOs.... it's over.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
I don't think it's a bad idea. I'd love to see publishers find a viable way to license the software to a third party so the game can live on in some form once it stops being profitable. I'm just not sure there really IS a viable way to do that. Say EQ closes down but Sony sells you a license to run a shard on your own server space. I don't think it's feasible for Sony to give you the right to alter the code in any way, because the potential for disastrous PR is enormous (ogres pimping off naked halflings in the East Commonlands and gnomes that cuss like sailors just won't do) and I suspect the legal implications of ownership are pretty complex as well. On the other hand, if you're not allowed to alter the code, that means Sony has to maintain tech support for you, which means you'll be paying some sort of service contract. Which means you'll probably need to be able to charge players to access your shard, which makes you sort of a franchisee at that point. And what happens when you close YOUR doors?
I voted "no", not because I think it's a bad idea, but because I don't think it's workable for a lot of reasons, some technical and some legal. I think it'd be great if publishers could convert their defunt MMOs into single player games that you can run locally, while allowing you to preserve the characters you invested your time in. It won't be an MMO any more, but you'd still "own" your character and you'd be able to take nostalgic trips through the game world for as long as you wanted. If they added in limited multiplayer support so you could play with a handful of friends, that'd be better yet.
Sorry, I don't seem the connection on how what u quoted undoes the argument that character development (and etc) is the player's property. I am thinking along the lines of the game being the software (like MS word) and the character and property being the result through the tool (like the document u type).
I do see that the analogy isn't perfect, as the development of the character can only go so far as what is allowed by the code in the game. Basically, the player is just fullfilling what is allowed by the game developer.
That is fine. There are games however, that do allow for creativity. People design housing, clothes, etc Those present a totally different situation.
I see it as a trade off. The consumer put down his money and he gets the game. Then he puts in the time, dedication and patience, and he return he gets the fullfilment of his dreams, his fantasy, he roleplays, conquers, etc, etc. In the end, however, none of that is guaranteed. That's what I am trying to get at.
As company, I find it hard to swallow that companies have the right to terminate the experience without any other alternative to the player but to accept the end of his game.
i used the 'game on the shelve analogy" because, well, it isn't an analogy. It's true, u buy software, and u keep it and u will be able to use it in the future (granted u have to deal with future hardware incompatibilities, etc, etc). With mmos, the company has the right to deny my playing. How so???
About the PR disaster u spoke of, that wouldn't be a big deal whatsoever. How many games are out there with custumizable skins and environment already? If a gamer codes porn into his game environment, than that's that particular gamer's fault, not the gaming company.
Also, I said it many times, and I'll state it again that this would be terminated software. Exctinct, defunct, passe, no more, discontinued, etc There are no support obligations towards the gamer from the custumer's perspectives. The custumer just wants a working copy of the game. That's all. Who would want an unsuported copy of a game? I would! And many people above me see to want the same. that's like asking why do you keep that dusty copy of Space Quest 1 around? I don't think Sierra is supporting that, lol. (I know, that was a simple game by comparison)
I agree with u in the end, it would be great. Besides, I didn't ask the question "is it possible?", I asked more along the lines of "if it were possible, would u be interested?", in other words "Do you want this?" I'll let the companies figure out the rest. What I wanted to show is consumer demand and interest, that's what moves these guys anyways.
This stuff needs to be talked about because eventually, all mmos will die off and become abandonware/obsolete. So far that is normal, games die off, but with MMOS, when your game shuts down... it's over.
You will never be able to install the game and play it once again a few years down the road.
This is very important, because many gamers put a lot of effort and dedication into their characters and progression, and many even become emotionally attached to their game character. If the game suddenly and drastically changes or if it closes down, well... everything ends right there and then. All that effort and time gets stored (maybe) into a backup closet, somewhere in an office building, and you will never again have it back. Believe me, it hurts. It happened to me, so it could happen to any of you as well.
I think that companies should start releasing their own official server-side software/emulators so that users can [edit]buy the software (not proposing giving anything away for free)[/edit], still host and play the MMOs (like a regular multiplayer rpg) once they close down or are permanently modified to newer versions.
Point is, they have ownership of their code, and they have the right to modify/close a game at any given moment. What we, as a gamer community need to start waking up to, is that they should not have the right of ownership of our characters/progression/effort. The time we put into our characters is not time worked for the gaming companies. We did it, the result of this effort is ours, and we should start claiming it as such.
[further edit] let me make it clear that in my question I refer to the following:
a game or version of the game that has become extinct or obsolete the game company would SELL a copy of the required software, not give it away for free by being extinct or obsolete, the company has NO custumer support/content providing obligations to the purchaser of the copy of the software other than basic functional documentation (something like /help) the purchaser should be aware of the limitations/problems of the software and the terms of release of resposibility of support on the company's behalf the purchaser would not be paying the company any monthly fees. Read #3 again, there is nothing to pay for on a monthly basis. The purchaser only buys a copy, the means, the "tool" to convert his defunct mmo into a regular, user-hosted multiplayer game[/edit]
You should have added another option to your poll: "not sure"
What youre saying seems like a very nice idea, but i do not think many games will truly die out. There may be hundreds, possibly thousands of MMORPG's up but they do not seem to die out very easily. A very good example is Runescape. For some reason, this easy... not great MMORPG is still around and a Large amount of people play it every day.
When you say User hosted, It may not be as fun as if there were thousands of people playing. If you do manage to get up to level 100 .. or even higher/ create a godly character, eventually you will begin to be bored because there is virtually nothing for you to do. For games like EVE online, they will most likely stay up around for another 10 years. if not more, because the choices of what you can do is basically limitless.
As for ownership, I do not think they really care about your character. As game creators and game masters, they can create their own godly character without doin much. I do not think they will mind if you take your character into your own private user hosted world, but they certainly do not need to give up their rights of owning the game. They spent their time creating it. If they did want to sell the game, I would think they want some money, so they might charge you renewal fees whenever you use "their game". Its really not up to us to decide. If you really want to, you should create your own game and control that.
Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by Theo Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by aaddam You would still loose everything because you would have to start again and for me this is when the bordem kicks in and i move on to something new.
That is true, but you would not lose the game.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
Sorry, I don't seem the connection on how what u quoted undoes the argument that character development (and etc) is the player's property. I am thinking along the lines of the game being the software (like MS word) and the character and property being the result through the tool (like the document u type).
If you lose everything you've worked for in the game as it existed on the servers, you abandon everything you claim to want to preserve through the ability to run the game locally. I think it's a matter of keeping your argument honest. If your goal is to preserve your characters, it can't be enough to simply possess an instance of the game world. You need to be able to keep your character data intact in a form you can store locally with the game. If, on the other hand, it isn't really the character that's important, but the ability to continue experiencing the game world, then leave the question of intellectual property out of it. I think you lost me when you seemed to accept that you'd lose what you claimed you were out to protect as long as you could still play the game.
I know it's sort of an academic argument and it really doesn't have a lot to do with the conversation at hand other than to qualify the motives for bringing it up. I think I'm just trying to help find a compelling reason for companies TO provide access to defunct games by shaping a solid argument in favor of it. I hope I haven't come across as antagonistic or offensive. It's an interesting topic.
1. The server code must be purchased for 1 client ONLY! This keeps people from tring to set up a server somewhere and charging people for access.
2. All char data for the account specified is included. This means that you can keep what you have and don't have to start over again.
3. Re thinking #1 about this time..... ok ok mutipule ppl can connect but each must have purchased their own server code package thingy, this will allow a clustering as it where.
Originally posted by britoca What's interesting, is that the more I debate, the more I realize how recent all these issues are, sprouting from a game concept a few years in age only, and therefore, prone to many points of debate, disagreement, misleading and misundrstanding.
Because these games carry serious emotional baggage (just browse the SWG forums here for some concrete evidence), I am starting to realize, that maybe I should just quit mmos altogether and let the industry mature a bit more.
I'm kinda tired of feeling like a guinea pig for both game concepts and developments, as well as for the ethical questions that this industry germinates.
Perhaps you will mature in a few years and see it is just a game or a hobby and not as a big emotional investment.
As much as I would personally like to see a server pack be released when an MMOG shuts down, I can't even begin to think of the hell that would unfold when they release.
People nowadays have great difficulty running even the most basic programs, and even more difficulty when it comes to running a server, whether that is for a game or not. I take this from the days when I used to be an active member of a UO emulator site, and the amount of idiotic threads that were started because people just don't bother to read FAQs is incredible.
So let's just say for instance that a AC2 server pack were released, not only would there be several thousand private and public servers, but 90% of them wouldn't be concrete, they would just be screwing around. Any UO fan who knows of UOGateway will back me up on this when I say that people just don't understand the commitment involved with running a game server, they just think they can turn it off when they please.
So no, I will be voting no today, and any other day a poll like this comes out, for the reasons listed above.
Originally posted by wjrasmussen Originally posted by britoca What's interesting, is that the more I debate, the more I realize how recent all these issues are, sprouting from a game concept a few years in age only, and therefore, prone to many points of debate, disagreement, misleading and misundrstanding.
Because these games carry serious emotional baggage (just browse the SWG forums here for some concrete evidence), I am starting to realize, that maybe I should just quit mmos altogether and let the industry mature a bit more.
I'm kinda tired of feeling like a guinea pig for both game concepts and developments, as well as for the ethical questions that this industry germinates.
Perhaps you will mature in a few years and see it is just a game or a hobby and not as a big emotional investment. hmm so does that mean u never invest yourself emotionally into hobbies or games? Cause it's pretty unavoidable if you do like something enough. It's like falling in love with an activity, you just really, really, really enjoy it. I do know what u mean though, but like with anything else, it's just hard to control it sometimes.
and by the way, it happend with only one game (well, also with other non-mmos, but those I can still play if I want to), so I don't want to make it seem that every game I try I dedicate heart and sould to it, lol
Originally posted by Terridol This could work with a few little provisos: 1. The server code must be purchased for 1 client ONLY! This keeps people from tring to set up a server somewhere and charging people for access. 2. All char data for the account specified is included. This means that you can keep what you have and don't have to start over again. 3. Re thinking #1 about this time..... ok ok mutipule ppl can connect but each must have purchased their own server code package thingy, this will allow a clustering as it where.
yes, exactly #3, like you said. Like any other multiplayer game, except this one doesn't really have a limit as to how many people can join in (as long as they themselves bought the game copy, heck, like any other game! lol)
Originally posted by Anageth As much as I would personally like to see a server pack be released when an MMOG shuts down, I can't even begin to think of the hell that would unfold when they release. People nowadays have great difficulty running even the most basic programs, and even more difficulty when it comes to running a server, whether that is for a game or not. I take this from the days when I used to be an active member of a UO emulator site, and the amount of idiotic threads that were started because people just don't bother to read FAQs is incredible. So let's just say for instance that a AC2 server pack were released, not only would there be several thousand private and public servers, but 90% of them wouldn't be concrete, they would just be screwing around. Any UO fan who knows of UOGateway will back me up on this when I say that people just don't understand the commitment involved with running a game server, they just think they can turn it off when they please. So no, I will be voting no today, and any other day a poll like this comes out, for the reasons listed above.
lol, thanks for the input, that acutally made me smile with the UO emulator site story.
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
Just adding a yes vote. Without reading through everything :P
Not necessarily tied to your player characters, but not releasing server software after the game is shut down is like scamming you for having bought it. (BTW I still see AC2 in the local store, haven't checked into why it's still there yet. Thought it was dead.)
My guess is; once they get around to make some standarised rules for MMOs you'll see it as a legal rule them having to give people the chance to set up servers when it's discontinued. Right now it's just the wild, wild west, do whatever you like as long as people sign your EULA.
Yay you got 128 votes. Here's a free bump because this thread has a good cause. I too, was thinking about this in the past couple of days as I remembered that Diablo II is still alive, but will guild wars be after 2010?
I think the conversion to singleplayer with multiplayer capability is the best idea I've heard for this yet. Since it would be easy to keep your initial character through keeping specific configuration files and save files client side, I think it could definitely work.
Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by Anageth As much as I would personally like to see a server pack be released when an MMOG shuts down, I can't even begin to think of the hell that would unfold when they release. People nowadays have great difficulty running even the most basic programs, and even more difficulty when it comes to running a server, whether that is for a game or not. I take this from the days when I used to be an active member of a UO emulator site, and the amount of idiotic threads that were started because people just don't bother to read FAQs is incredible. So let's just say for instance that a AC2 server pack were released, not only would there be several thousand private and public servers, but 90% of them wouldn't be concrete, they would just be screwing around. Any UO fan who knows of UOGateway will back me up on this when I say that people just don't understand the commitment involved with running a game server, they just think they can turn it off when they please. So no, I will be voting no today, and any other day a poll like this comes out, for the reasons listed above.
lol, thanks for the input, that acutally made me smile with the UO emulator site story.
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
The only reply I can give to the above marked paragraph is to licence the server. If they charged a monthly fee for only dedicated individuals to host their own servers, it would not only remove all the people making their own test servers, but also prove that the server you are going to go on has a dedicated player behind it, not some idiot.
To be perfectly honest, can we all see this happening? Even if an MMOG becomes a flop after a decade or so, it still would have cost the company a fair share to develop it in the first place, so why would they release it completely free? Just doesn't seem like a logical step they would take.
Originally posted by Anageth Originally posted by britoca Originally posted by Anageth As much as I would personally like to see a server pack be released when an MMOG shuts down, I can't even begin to think of the hell that would unfold when they release. People nowadays have great difficulty running even the most basic programs, and even more difficulty when it comes to running a server, whether that is for a game or not. I take this from the days when I used to be an active member of a UO emulator site, and the amount of idiotic threads that were started because people just don't bother to read FAQs is incredible. So let's just say for instance that a AC2 server pack were released, not only would there be several thousand private and public servers, but 90% of them wouldn't be concrete, they would just be screwing around. Any UO fan who knows of UOGateway will back me up on this when I say that people just don't understand the commitment involved with running a game server, they just think they can turn it off when they please. So no, I will be voting no today, and any other day a poll like this comes out, for the reasons listed above.
lol, thanks for the input, that acutally made me smile with the UO emulator site story.
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
The only reply I can give to the above marked paragraph is to licence the server. If they charged a monthly fee for only dedicated individuals to host their own servers, it would not only remove all the people making their own test servers, but also prove that the server you are going to go on has a dedicated player behind it, not some idiot.
To be perfectly honest, can we all see this happening? Even if an MMOG becomes a flop after a decade or so, it still would have cost the company a fair share to develop it in the first place, so why would they release it completely free? Just doesn't seem like a logical step they would take.
oh no Anageth, not free game copy. You'd buy your own copy, like u buy any other multiplayer game.
and about the fee issue, I am not thinking or considering game hosting for a fee and I never proposed it here. I think going that way gets even more complicated as far legalities with the company, etc
Did u mean let people play the game for free? If the game was shut down and is extinct it probably means it was already unprofitable anyways, so selling that copy is better than no profit. But let's consider the play-for-a-fee scenario Interested players could make deals with the companies and run their own servers for a fee and pay a certain share back to the company, but if there were such interest, why woudn't the company do it themselves? Cutting off the hosting middleman would be much better for business. Unless... unless they'd give those "special" people access and permission to modify the code and game content within their own servers. This would probably bring about so many variations of the game that yeah, I guess it would just be easier to have other run and host the games for u and collect the fees from the hosting players, no need to handle several different game variations.
how come I'm the only guy posting replies anyways?? lol I know I'm the OP but no one else gives rebuttals? brainstorm! But thanks for the devil's advocacy nonetheless, it springs ideas
yes, of course. the positive effects would outweight the negative by far imho.
but it will never happen, simply because how the firms think: "oh noes! releasing xyz 1 would create competition for our own xyz 2! f*ck the reputation, we want $$$!". sure, this is totally fubared, but this the way these ppl think (take the riaa for example). mmorpg's are still a BUSINESS.
CyanWorlds released the server technology needed to host a version of the old "UruLive: Prolouge", called Until URU. Now that CyanWorlds has solidified fan's intrests in UruLive, they are re-releasing it.
Until Uru was quite succesful with the MYST fan community. It gave CyanWorlds the intrest base they needed to run LIVE.
Comments
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
I think this should defnitally be put on the MMORPG.com vote thing.
I remember reading this when you first posted it and still think it's a great idea. They can still make money selling the game so why the hell not?
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
I have some games on my shelves that are nearly 10 years in age. Sometimes, once in a blue moon, I'll install one of them and just have a good laugh at the graphics, and enjoy the things that I had fogotten about and suddenly they pop back into memory out of nowhere. It's nice, ya know? U spend a lot of time with thse things (games), and it's good to know u can revist a portion of your past like that.
With MMOs.... it's over.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
I don't think it's a bad idea. I'd love to see publishers find a viable way to license the software to a third party so the game can live on in some form once it stops being profitable. I'm just not sure there really IS a viable way to do that. Say EQ closes down but Sony sells you a license to run a shard on your own server space. I don't think it's feasible for Sony to give you the right to alter the code in any way, because the potential for disastrous PR is enormous (ogres pimping off naked halflings in the East Commonlands and gnomes that cuss like sailors just won't do) and I suspect the legal implications of ownership are pretty complex as well. On the other hand, if you're not allowed to alter the code, that means Sony has to maintain tech support for you, which means you'll be paying some sort of service contract. Which means you'll probably need to be able to charge players to access your shard, which makes you sort of a franchisee at that point. And what happens when you close YOUR doors?
I voted "no", not because I think it's a bad idea, but because I don't think it's workable for a lot of reasons, some technical and some legal. I think it'd be great if publishers could convert their defunt MMOs into single player games that you can run locally, while allowing you to preserve the characters you invested your time in. It won't be an MMO any more, but you'd still "own" your character and you'd be able to take nostalgic trips through the game world for as long as you wanted. If they added in limited multiplayer support so you could play with a handful of friends, that'd be better yet.
I have some games on my shelves that are nearly 10 years in age. Sometimes, once in a blue moon, I'll install one of them and just have a good laugh at the graphics, and enjoy the things that I had fogotten about and suddenly they pop back into memory out of nowhere. It's nice, ya know? U spend a lot of time with thse things (games), and it's good to know u can revist a portion of your past like that.
With MMOs.... it's over.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
I don't think it's a bad idea. I'd love to see publishers find a viable way to license the software to a third party so the game can live on in some form once it stops being profitable. I'm just not sure there really IS a viable way to do that. Say EQ closes down but Sony sells you a license to run a shard on your own server space. I don't think it's feasible for Sony to give you the right to alter the code in any way, because the potential for disastrous PR is enormous (ogres pimping off naked halflings in the East Commonlands and gnomes that cuss like sailors just won't do) and I suspect the legal implications of ownership are pretty complex as well. On the other hand, if you're not allowed to alter the code, that means Sony has to maintain tech support for you, which means you'll be paying some sort of service contract. Which means you'll probably need to be able to charge players to access your shard, which makes you sort of a franchisee at that point. And what happens when you close YOUR doors?
I voted "no", not because I think it's a bad idea, but because I don't think it's workable for a lot of reasons, some technical and some legal. I think it'd be great if publishers could convert their defunt MMOs into single player games that you can run locally, while allowing you to preserve the characters you invested your time in. It won't be an MMO any more, but you'd still "own" your character and you'd be able to take nostalgic trips through the game world for as long as you wanted. If they added in limited multiplayer support so you could play with a handful of friends, that'd be better yet.
Sorry, I don't seem the connection on how what u quoted undoes the argument that character development (and etc) is the player's property. I am thinking along the lines of the game being the software (like MS word) and the character and property being the result through the tool (like the document u type).
I do see that the analogy isn't perfect, as the development of the character can only go so far as what is allowed by the code in the game. Basically, the player is just fullfilling what is allowed by the game developer.
That is fine. There are games however, that do allow for creativity. People design housing, clothes, etc Those present a totally different situation.
I see it as a trade off. The consumer put down his money and he gets the game. Then he puts in the time, dedication and patience, and he return he gets the fullfilment of his dreams, his fantasy, he roleplays, conquers, etc, etc. In the end, however, none of that is guaranteed. That's what I am trying to get at.
As company, I find it hard to swallow that companies have the right to terminate the experience without any other alternative to the player but to accept the end of his game.
i used the 'game on the shelve analogy" because, well, it isn't an analogy. It's true, u buy software, and u keep it and u will be able to use it in the future (granted u have to deal with future hardware incompatibilities, etc, etc). With mmos, the company has the right to deny my playing. How so???
About the PR disaster u spoke of, that wouldn't be a big deal whatsoever. How many games are out there with custumizable skins and environment already? If a gamer codes porn into his game environment, than that's that particular gamer's fault, not the gaming company.
Also, I said it many times, and I'll state it again that this would be terminated software. Exctinct, defunct, passe, no more, discontinued, etc
There are no support obligations towards the gamer from the custumer's perspectives. The custumer just wants a working copy of the game. That's all. Who would want an unsuported copy of a game? I would!
And many people above me see to want the same. that's like asking why do you keep that dusty copy of Space Quest 1 around? I don't think Sierra is supporting that, lol. (I know, that was a simple game by comparison)
I agree with u in the end, it would be great. Besides, I didn't ask the question "is it possible?", I asked more along the lines of "if it were possible, would u be interested?", in other words "Do you want this?"
I'll let the companies figure out the rest. What I wanted to show is consumer demand and interest, that's what moves these guys anyways.
nice post btw, thanks
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Originally posted by britoca
This stuff needs to be talked about because eventually, all mmos will die off and become abandonware/obsolete.
So far that is normal, games die off, but with MMOS, when your game shuts down... it's over.
You will never be able to install the game and play it once again a few years down the road.
This
is very important, because many gamers put a lot of effort and
dedication into their characters and progression, and many even become
emotionally attached to their game character. If the game suddenly and
drastically changes or if it closes down, well... everything ends right
there and then.
All that effort and time gets stored (maybe) into a
backup closet, somewhere in an office building, and you will never
again have it back.
Believe me, it hurts. It happened to me, so it could happen to any of you as well.
I think that companies should start releasing their own official
server-side software/emulators so that users can [edit]buy the software (not proposing giving anything away for free)[/edit], still host and play the MMOs
(like a regular multiplayer rpg) once they close down or are permanently modified to newer versions.
Point
is, they have ownership of their code, and they have the right to
modify/close a game at any given moment. What we, as a gamer community
need to start waking up to, is that they should not have the right of
ownership of our characters/progression/effort. The time we put into
our characters is not time worked for the gaming companies. We did it,
the result of this effort is ours, and we should start claiming it as
such.
[further edit]
let me make it clear that in my question I refer to the following:
a game or version of the game that has become extinct or obsolete
the game company would SELL a copy of the required software, not give it away for free
by being extinct or obsolete, the company has NO custumer
support/content providing obligations to the purchaser of the copy of
the software other than basic functional documentation (something like
/help)
the purchaser should be aware of the limitations/problems of the
software and the terms of release of resposibility of support on the
company's behalf
the purchaser would not be paying the company any monthly fees.
Read #3 again, there is nothing to pay for on a monthly basis. The purchaser only buys
a copy, the means, the "tool" to convert his defunct mmo into a
regular, user-hosted multiplayer game[/edit]
You should have added another option to your poll: "not sure"
What youre saying seems like a very nice idea, but i do not think many games will truly die out. There may be hundreds, possibly thousands of MMORPG's up but they do not seem to die out very easily. A very good example is Runescape. For some reason, this easy... not great MMORPG is still around and a Large amount of people play it every day.
When you say User hosted, It may not be as fun as if there were thousands of people playing. If you do manage to get up to level 100 .. or even higher/ create a godly character, eventually you will begin to be bored because there is virtually nothing for you to do. For games like EVE online, they will most likely stay up around for another 10 years. if not more, because the choices of what you can do is basically limitless.
As for ownership, I do not think they really care about your character. As game creators and game masters, they can create their own godly character without doin much. I do not think they will mind if you take your character into your own private user hosted world, but they certainly do not need to give up their rights of owning the game. They spent their time creating it. If they did want to sell the game, I would think they want some money, so they might charge you renewal fees whenever you use "their game". Its really not up to us to decide. If you really want to, you should create your own game and control that.
Nice conversation.
Though actually publishing the server software may not be feasible for reasons mentioned above, I wish they would be.
I'd kill someone with my bare hands to be able to run an AC2 server.
That completely negates your argument that your character should be considered your intellectual property. In this case, your only argument in support of making the game available is because you want it, not to protect the investment of time and effort your character represents.
Sorry, I don't seem the connection on how what u quoted undoes the argument that character development (and etc) is the player's property. I am thinking along the lines of the game being the software (like MS word) and the character and property being the result through the tool (like the document u type).
If you lose everything you've worked for in the game as it existed on the servers, you abandon everything you claim to want to preserve through the ability to run the game locally. I think it's a matter of keeping your argument honest. If your goal is to preserve your characters, it can't be enough to simply possess an instance of the game world. You need to be able to keep your character data intact in a form you can store locally with the game. If, on the other hand, it isn't really the character that's important, but the ability to continue experiencing the game world, then leave the question of intellectual property out of it. I think you lost me when you seemed to accept that you'd lose what you claimed you were out to protect as long as you could still play the game.
I know it's sort of an academic argument and it really doesn't have a lot to do with the conversation at hand other than to qualify the motives for bringing it up. I think I'm just trying to help find a compelling reason for companies TO provide access to defunct games by shaping a solid argument in favor of it. I hope I haven't come across as antagonistic or offensive. It's an interesting topic.
This could work with a few little provisos:
1. The server code must be purchased for 1 client ONLY! This keeps people from tring to set up a server somewhere and charging people for access.
2. All char data for the account specified is included. This means that you can keep what you have and don't have to start over again.
3. Re thinking #1 about this time..... ok ok mutipule ppl can connect but each must have purchased their own server code package thingy, this will allow a clustering as it where.
We have actually started getting into this same subject on the ac2 forums at ac2hq.com
http://ac2vault.ign.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60848
If there is an almost working emulator out, this may actually get challenged by Turbine if they were to attempt to shut it down.
As much as I would personally like to see a server pack be released when an MMOG shuts down, I can't even begin to think of the hell that would unfold when they release.
People nowadays have great difficulty running even the most basic programs, and even more difficulty when it comes to running a server, whether that is for a game or not. I take this from the days when I used to be an active member of a UO emulator site, and the amount of idiotic threads that were started because people just don't bother to read FAQs is incredible.
So let's just say for instance that a AC2 server pack were released, not only would there be several thousand private and public servers, but 90% of them wouldn't be concrete, they would just be screwing around. Any UO fan who knows of UOGateway will back me up on this when I say that people just don't understand the commitment involved with running a game server, they just think they can turn it off when they please.
So no, I will be voting no today, and any other day a poll like this comes out, for the reasons listed above.
No longer visiting MMORPG.com.
hmm so does that mean u never invest yourself emotionally into hobbies or games? Cause it's pretty unavoidable if you do like something enough. It's like falling in love with an activity, you just really, really, really enjoy it.
I do know what u mean though, but like with anything else, it's just hard to control it sometimes.
and by the way, it happend with only one game (well, also with other non-mmos, but those I can still play if I want to), so I don't want to make it seem that every game I try I dedicate heart and sould to it, lol
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
Not necessarily tied to your player characters, but not releasing server software after the game is shut down is like scamming you for having bought it. (BTW I still see AC2 in the local store, haven't checked into why it's still there yet. Thought it was dead.)
My guess is; once they get around to make some standarised rules for MMOs you'll see it as a legal rule them having to give people the chance to set up servers when it's discontinued. Right now it's just the wild, wild west, do whatever you like as long as people sign your EULA.
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
The only reply I can give to the above marked paragraph is to licence the server. If they charged a monthly fee for only dedicated individuals to host their own servers, it would not only remove all the people making their own test servers, but also prove that the server you are going to go on has a dedicated player behind it, not some idiot.
To be perfectly honest, can we all see this happening? Even if an MMOG becomes a flop after a decade or so, it still would have cost the company a fair share to develop it in the first place, so why would they release it completely free? Just doesn't seem like a logical step they would take.
No longer visiting MMORPG.com.
Seems like all of you are thinking this would be large- scale projects, and frankly that would be up to whoever is hosting the server.
I mean, if u want to spam ur server all over the forums, then yeah, u're gonna get a lot of people playing in, and with it, a lot of requestw, like u did, and many won't be the smartest ever seen, yes.
But what about all the other thousands of people who don't want to do this? Do you really think everyone out there is buying a game copy to host it to the world?
I mean, I'd just like to long into my game, server empty or not, and play it a bit once in a while. I'd probably get my friends to play from back in the day and that'd make some...15 people, tops!
I am thinking leasurely, to just be able to enter my game agin, you all seem to be thinking massive hosting.
that's up to the server owner really, the more people, the more trouble, yup
The only reply I can give to the above marked paragraph is to licence the server. If they charged a monthly fee for only dedicated individuals to host their own servers, it would not only remove all the people making their own test servers, but also prove that the server you are going to go on has a dedicated player behind it, not some idiot.
To be perfectly honest, can we all see this happening? Even if an MMOG becomes a flop after a decade or so, it still would have cost the company a fair share to develop it in the first place, so why would they release it completely free? Just doesn't seem like a logical step they would take.
oh no Anageth, not free game copy. You'd buy your own copy, like u buy any other multiplayer game.
and about the fee issue, I am not thinking or considering game hosting for a fee and I never proposed it here. I think going that way gets even more complicated as far legalities with the company, etc
Did u mean let people play the game for free? If the game was shut down and is extinct it probably means it was already unprofitable anyways, so selling that copy is better than no profit. But let's consider the play-for-a-fee scenario
Interested players could make deals with the companies and run their own servers for a fee and pay a certain share back to the company, but if there were such interest, why woudn't the company do it themselves? Cutting off the hosting middleman would be much better for business.
Unless... unless they'd give those "special" people access and permission to modify the code and game content within their own servers. This would probably bring about so many variations of the game that yeah, I guess it would just be easier to have other run and host the games for u and collect the fees from the hosting players, no need to handle several different game variations.
how come I'm the only guy posting replies anyways?? lol I know I'm the OP but no one else gives rebuttals?
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
AC2, I knew thee well....
Which FF Character Are You?
yes, of course. the positive effects would outweight the negative by far imho.
but it will never happen, simply because how the firms think: "oh noes! releasing xyz 1 would create competition for our own xyz 2! f*ck the reputation, we want $$$!". sure, this is totally fubared, but this the way these ppl think (take the riaa for example). mmorpg's are still a BUSINESS.
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
the answer is no.
there are trade secrets in the server. even though i will be the first to admit that a lot of its quick sorting and searching.
and why whould you want to play a game that won't get updated. or to the quality(in most cases) that it previously was.
while being at the whims of some one who cried/shouted/kicked/screamed against essential balance update.
the game has the essentia(very very likely due to the new team) to become a completely differnt one.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
CyanWorlds released the server technology needed to host a version of the old "UruLive: Prolouge", called Until URU. Now that CyanWorlds has solidified fan's intrests in UruLive, they are re-releasing it.
Until Uru was quite succesful with the MYST fan community. It gave CyanWorlds the intrest base they needed to run LIVE.