THE SERVER SHOULD BE THE GM...

Billius8 · July 2006

The whole point of MMORPGS is you have a programmed server act as a tireless, neutral DM, around the clock. Having human GM's only tosses in favoritism and the human error that computers so successfully replace. Don't need in-Game GM's. In-game customer service, but in-game GM's who create their own quests is just another silly MMORPG idea destined to failure.

Toss it in with the history's pile of forgotten failed game ideas.

xDivianaDRx · July 2006

Everything goes through QC before it goes into the game, that includes events. Is it more fun to talk to an NPC or to talk to a GM pretending to be that NPC? Is it fun to go on pre-determined quests or go on events that could possibly change the entire history of the game?

It's been working in our other games for well over ten years, so I don't see why it wouldn't work now.

We've got strict rules on favoritism, and I don't know what kind of error caused by a GM could happen that would ruin an event.. Maybe embellish on that a bit?

_Shadowmage · July 2006

Billius has been trolling over on the WAR forum and decided to offer us his many insights into MMO development. ::::08::

Billius8 · July 2006

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

Billius has been trolling over on the WAR forum and decided to offer us his many insights into MMO development.

Stating an opinion is now "trolling", eh? I think I generally articulate my opinions fairly well, give good reasons for them, whatever they may be.

Billius8 · July 2006

People, the SERVER IS THE GM!!!! The server doesn't eat, doesn't sleep (except when being defragged or upgraded), doens't take trips to the bathroom, and doesn't play favorites. The server can pay attention to the simulatenous actions and events surrounding up to 3,000 players at a time.

The server is the PERFECT GM!!!! No human can do all of the above. No one.

Now why replace server functions with faulty, arbitrary human elements? Why?

Chessack · July 2006

The server does not have to be the GM. The server can be the table top. It provides you with the "playing surface". You keep your character sheet on it. You keep track of your hit points and inventory and such on it. You roll your dice on it. It provides the play-space.

In that model, then a human GM is entirely appropriate.

You are correct that the server can be programmed to be the GM, but it does not have to be that way. It can be programmed to be more like the table-top, and let humans be the GM. The Saga of Ryzom does this right now. There are no dungeons or anything like that in SoR... It's basically a world with dangerous critters all over its surface, some of which will attack you on sight, but otherwise no real story pre-programmed into the world. Over time, the GMs and players make the stories themselves (and they are about to release a toolkit called the Ring that allows players to make their own private instanced quest areas and run adventures for each other). SoR is therefore built as the table top, the surface for us to play on... and the humans are the GMs.

You may not LIKE a game that is built as the table-top instead of as the GM, but it is an entirely valid model.

C

Cordy · July 2006

Can a server create new content on the fly and change the world at any given time with different quests and interactions with people? Can the server talk to you like a human being and give you detailed quest information and story plots different for every person that talks to them? Is a servers AI smarter then a Players intelligence?

You have to think about it the gms are not becoming the server just adding to what the server can already do. It adds a personal touch that isn't present in games now. Have you ever played taple top games with a DM? Tell me a server can make detailed quests at anytime it wants...it can't. What simu is attempting to do is bring a whole new randomness to a game instead of the same old same old static world until an expansion comes out.

Your worried about favortism? Well your right it could happen but simu has implemented a series of checks and balances to ensure that won't happen. Like has already been stated any content added goes through a QC process before entering the game to ensure that just that doesn't happen. You afraid gm's are going to give their favorite players a super uber weapon?? It won't happen so cheer up and applaud a company who is trying to get away from the normal stagnent worlds and add something fresh to the mmo market.

Morneblade · July 2006

Originally posted by Billius8

The whole point of MMORPGS is you have a programmed server act as a tireless, neutral DM, around the clock. Having human GM's only tosses in favoritism and the human error that computers so successfully replace. Don't need in-Game GM's. In-game customer service, but in-game GM's who create their own quests is just another silly MMORPG idea destined to failure.
Toss it in with the history's pile of forgotten failed game ideas.

GM events to me are the most fun, most "alive" and most interesting things in a MMO. CAn "exploits" happen, but they do in every facet of the game as well, including those that are managed by the servers. So, you think having random, unigue events is silly? Ok, go play another game. I'd like to see that kind of thing, and so would other people.

HJ-Rowell · July 2006

Before joining the Hero's Journey team, I ran a small persistent world server for Neverwinter Nights. There were many quests and scripted events, which the players enjoyed. The highlight, however, was whenever a GM would run an event. It's the personal touch, the knowledge that the mob you're interacting with is not just some AI.   It's a living breathing person that can interact with you.   And that's what many players love.

GM Events offer special insight into the history of the game world, and the events unfolding within it. These events offer the player something more than a static world. The biggest detriment to Role Playing in an MMO (IMHO) is that the world is static. Players can perform quests and take actions to change things....yet they stay the same.   GM Events empower the players, letting them know that something happened in the world, they got involved with it, and had an affect on the outcome....which has an affect on the world. i mean....how cool is that?

Simutronics has had GM Events in their other games, which have been successful for many years (what is it, around 20 years now? Seems like forever).   I'm sure that in this time, they've come to understand the problems with running GM Events, and have found solutions to them.   Will every event run perfectly every time?   I can't say yes....we're all human afterall. But, having GM Events, in my opinion, is an added bonus to everything that will be offered by the Hero's Journey server.

Tymora · July 2006

Originally posted by Billius8

People, the SERVER IS THE GM!!!! The server doesn't eat, doesn't sleep (except when being defragged or upgraded), doens't take trips to the bathroom, and doesn't play favorites. The server can pay attention to the simulatenous actions and events surrounding up to 3,000 players at a time.
The server is the PERFECT GM!!!! No human can do all of the above. No one.
Now why replace server functions with faulty, arbitrary human elements? Why?

The server as a GM is predictable, repeatable, and static. The NPCs I talk to say the same things. They give me a quest, I do what they say. I make every effort to "play along" and create a sense of immersion in these mmorpgs, but it is always the other players that bring the mmorpg to life.

If there are real people playing NPCs in the game, it will only add more unpredictability and make the gameworld more dynamic. Even if they make a mistake, it would bring more personality to the mmorpg.

mmorogue · July 2006

The statement "People, the SERVER IS THE GM!!!!" is simply wrong. I suspect that the poster has not actually played tabletop RPGs (or is merely trolling here). The point of the GM was never to do those things which a computer does well: make dice rolls, look up results in a table and apply those effects to players and NPCs and so on. The point of the GM is to bring life to the game, to put the characters in a story that is beyond a simple Monty Haul campaign. A computer is no good at doing things a GM should really be doing: bringing the world to life based on the actions of the players. The computer can only bring the world to life within a limited set of options that have been programmed for it. A human GM is dynamic, a computer one is static.

When it comes to rolling a die, a computer works fine. For telling a story, an actual human can't be beat.

korvass · July 2006

I would disagree. The server is exactly what it's name implies, a 'server'. It serves you a product. It does not describe a world to you. It does not respond to your actions. It does not tailor the unfolding of a world for you. It is not the GM. The product (game) does that. The server merely offers the game to you. The game is the GM.

_Shadowmage · July 2006

Originally posted by Billius8
People, the SERVER IS THE GM!!!! The server doesn't eat, doesn't sleep (except when being defragged or upgraded), doens't take trips to the bathroom, and doesn't play favorites. The server can pay attention to the simulatenous actions and events surrounding up to 3,000 players at a time.
The server is the PERFECT GM!!!! No human can do all of the above. No one.
Now why replace server functions with faulty, arbitrary human elements? Why?

NO-one is talking about replacing server functions with people. The server will still do everything that a server in any other MMORPG does.

What they are talking about is having GM's that do more than the server does. This will help to make the world dynamic. Which is something a server cant do.

HJ-Rowell · July 2006

As if in Answer:

The Latest Dev Journal Interview

DeserttFoxx · July 2006

Originally posted by HJ-Rowell
As if in Answer:

The Latest Dev Journal Interview

This thread just got owned.

The latest interview added a much needed... tease for those of us anxiously a waiting to bite into this game. I Enjoyed this interview, and i am awaiting the next.

I dont know why someonee would actually be turned off by the notion that GMs would have a bigger influence in the world, i mean i think that is great. What other game actually uses a system like that, where GM related events can happen anytime. The idea that content can change on the fly is especially great for a player like me, whocreates hundreads of alts, the idea that what i did on my main might not be the same on my alt is great.

_Shadowmage · July 2006

People are turned off GM's by their expreience with GM's in other games. If they have had bad experiences then they wont necessarily like this, and feel its open to abuse/favouritism by GMs.

The only online game I have played with GM's is neverwinternights. And yes you get your good GM's who help out on a tough quest, or create new quests on the fly, help with the role-playing etc, and then you get your crap GM's who just dump uber-monsters on players to watch them die.

Perhaps what would be helpful is if someone from Simutronics could discuss the hiring, training process their GM's undergo before being turned loose in the game to interact with players.

I also assume they have systems in place to ensure GM's having a bad day dont take it out on their paying customers.

Some more info on this might help to instill confidence in people who havent experienced their GM's in other Simu games.

And instead of OWNing people (potential customers) with concerns we could address those concerns and help to win them as fans of H.J.

Respectfully,

Shadowmage.

DeserttFoxx · July 2006

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

People are turned off GM's by their expreience with GM's in other games. If they have had bad experiences then they wont necessarily like this, and feel its open to abuse/favouritism by GMs.
The only online game I have played with GM's is neverwinternights. And yes you get your good GM's who help out on a tough quest, or create new quests on the fly, help with the role-playing etc, and then you get your crap GM's who just dump uber-monsters on players to watch them die.
Perhaps what would be helpful is if someone from Simutronics could discuss the hiring, training process their GM's undergo before being turned loose in the game to interact with players.
I also assume they have systems in place to ensure GM's having a bad day dont take it out on their paying customers.
Some more info on this might help to instill confidence in people who havent experienced their GM's in other Simu games.
And instead of OWNing people (potential customers) with concerns we could address those concerns and help to win them as fans of H.J.
Respectfully,
Shadowmage.

when you get that badGM situation it is up to the player to weed them out and report them, just like a bad player if a bad gm goes unpunshed then a gam will suffer. It is a community, and just like players, gms answer to someone too. Lets not let past experiences govern future games.

_Shadowmage · July 2006

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Lets not let past experiences govern future games.

Thats a nice sentiment but as we can see from the people flaming Vanguard and WAR for their dealings with Sony and EA people do let their past experiences colour their perceptions. Not saying its everyone, but they are certainly vocal.

The other thing to realise is that people only complain about bad service if they think it will make a difference. Otherwise they just go somewhere else and tell everyone about the crap experience they had.

DeserttFoxx · July 2006

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Lets not let past experiences govern future games.

Thats a nice sentiment but as we can see from the people flaming Vanguard and WAR for their dealings with Sony and EA people do let their past experiences colour their perceptions. Not saying its everyone, but they are certainly vocal.

The other thing to realise is that people only complain about bad service if they think it will make a difference. Otherwise they just go somewhere else and tell everyone about the crap experience they had.

People are pretty stupid though, and i wont take that back. If you look at Vangaurd, that game is crashing and burning all on its own, it has nothing to do with sony, though sony seems to be teh hot button issue. And warhammer, I have had no problem with EA games, they practically dominate the sports gaming industry and since i dont play sports games, i dont really see EA problems that much. But i will leave warhammers fate to warhammer devs when the game is released.

Personally i have no interest in playing VAngaurd or warhammer, thus the reason i dont post in either forum. While i do read the interesting events, i pretty much dont care about the goings on with either sigil or whatever company that runs warhammer.

People hating vangaurd because of sony are pretty stupid in my opinion, why? because sony is just the skin, while sigly is the heart and brian. And while sony promotes and provides the funds, sigil creates the game. People taking out all their malice on sigil because they joined with SoE need a reality check. Sony runs like 60% of the electronic industry right now, and while their games usually suck, they move like a plague cloud, sucking up small companies in an effort to turn a profit. And while their business practices are sometimes lame in their previous games, Vangaurd hasnt even been released yet, theres no real reason while players should dog this game out.

I seen that post were players where scoffing at the fact that devs were askign player imput over what should be introduced as content, and reading these posters dog vangaurd for having people test an unfinished product which mde me laugh, because that was the whole purpose of a beta tester.

Personally i would like more games to ask players what they think of the game so far, what should be changed BEFORE release, its better then revamiping the entire game after you pay for it, something everquest 2 did, which turned me off EVERQUEST 2, not every game made by sony, just that one game. People are upset because devs from everquest work for sigil now, saying they dont wanna play.. well devs for everquest work for world of warcraft as well. Maybe these peoplle have jobs because they know what they are doing.

Anyway i could go on, but i dont care too...

I will just go back to paitiently waiting for Hero's Journey. Which is the only game right now i am willing to drop a monthly fee on.

HJ-Illuminat · July 2006

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

Perhaps what would be helpful is if someone from Simutronics could discuss the hiring, training process their GM's undergo before being turned loose in the game to interact with players.
I also assume they have systems in place to ensure GM's having a bad day dont take it out on their paying customers.
Some more info on this might help to instill confidence in people who havent experienced their GM's in other Simu games.
And instead of OWNing people (potential customers) with concerns we could address those concerns and help to win them as fans of H.J.
Respectfully,
Shadowmage.

Not speaking for Simu directly, but posting based on what I know. In the text games everything a GM does on the live server is logged, and each GMs Senior checks those logs daily. No GM is allowed to do anything on a live server without prior approval from their Senior. (In the text games the GMs could do minor RP things without permission because the population is lower and text doesn't overload the servers badly. This won't be the case in HJ because of how easily 1000+ people in one spot could potentially cause large amounts of lag.)

There was a case many years ago where a GS GM was showing favoritism to some friends and gave them special items. That GM was fired as soon as the proper evidence was gathered. I've never heard of another case of this happening again.

GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey

Amathe · July 2006

I am personally very excited about the live events component to HJ. It's one of the top 5 reasons I want to play the game. But I also share the OP's concern about favoritism, or its evil twin, griefing of players by a GM who for whatever reason doesn't like particular players.

If the GM's were onsite, salaried professional employees of the company with a direct report looking over their shoulder, whose next mortgage payment hinges on not losing their job, I would be less worried. But Simu has hired a lot of people who work remotely rather than on site, many of whom are there on a volunteer or quasi-volunteer basis. You simply don't have the kind of leverage or control over someone like that you do in a normal work environment. Plus, although the vast majority of those people have conducted themselves maturely and professionally, not all of them have. For example, there was one GM who, upon being selected, posted over and over on a certain "fansite" that everyone should "be jealous." In other words, they hired a kid.

I am willing to take HJ's word that they are going to keep a close eye on this and not let it happen. I really hope they have the checks and balances described in this thread because I can see in at least some instances already they are going to need them.

DeserttFoxx · July 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

I am personally very excited about the live events component to HJ. It's one of the top 5 reasons I want to play the game. But I also share the OP's concern about favoritism, or its evil twin, griefing of players by a GM who for whatever reason doesn't like particular players.
If the GM's were onsite, salaried professional employees of the company with a direct report looking over their shoulder, whose next mortgage payment hinges on not losing their job, I would be less worried. But Simu has hired a lot of people who work remotely rather than on site, many of whom are there on a volunteer or quasi-volunteer basis. You simply don't have the kind of leverage or control over someone like that you do in a normal work environment. Plus, although the vast majority of those people have conducted themselves maturely and professionally, not all of them have. For example, there was one GM who, upon being selected, posted over and over on a certain "fansite" that everyone should "be jealous." In other words, they hired a kid.
I am willing to take HJ's word that they are going to keep a close eye on this and not let it happen. I really hope they have the checks and balances described in this thread because I can see in at least some instances already they are going to need them.

The Gms are split up. You have to assume they will have some social interactions on fansite etc. The GMs are not given absolute power though. They do answer to someone so there really isnt anything to worry about.

xDivianaDRx · July 2006

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by Amathe

I am personally very excited about the live events component to HJ. It's one of the top 5 reasons I want to play the game. But I also share the OP's concern about favoritism, or its evil twin, griefing of players by a GM who for whatever reason doesn't like particular players.
If the GM's were onsite, salaried professional employees of the company with a direct report looking over their shoulder, whose next mortgage payment hinges on not losing their job, I would be less worried. But Simu has hired a lot of people who work remotely rather than on site, many of whom are there on a volunteer or quasi-volunteer basis. You simply don't have the kind of leverage or control over someone like that you do in a normal work environment. Plus, although the vast majority of those people have conducted themselves maturely and professionally, not all of them have. For example, there was one GM who, upon being selected, posted over and over on a certain "fansite" that everyone should "be jealous." In other words, they hired a kid.
I am willing to take HJ's word that they are going to keep a close eye on this and not let it happen. I really hope they have the checks and balances described in this thread because I can see in at least some instances already they are going to need them.

The Gms are split up. You have to assume they will have some social interactions on fansite etc. The GMs are not given absolute power though. They do answer to someone so there really isnt anything to worry about.

We are split up, that is correct. Customer Service (a.k.a. events) will probably be the closest watched, but they'll have an eye on everyone. They do NOT want ANYONE giving items away, doing favors, etc.

I'm pretty sure they won't mind us messing around with players once in a while, as long as we're not GIVING them any types of advantages.

Every SINGLE thing we do goes to an onsite to check for QC. Every Quest, every NPC, everything.

And if they found something off, the person would most likely be fired on the spot.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about. GM-Customer interaction has to be taken care of in a way that is fair to everyone. We know it as well as you do.

Syri · July 2006

Originally posted by Billius8

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

Billius has been trolling over on the WAR forum and decided to offer us his many insights into MMO development.

Stating an opinion is now "trolling", eh? I think
I generally articulate my opinions fairly well, give good reasons for
them, whatever they may be.

Originally posted by Billius8

People, the SERVER IS THE GM!!!! The server doesn't eat, doesn't sleep (except when being defragged or upgraded), doens't take trips to the bathroom, and doesn't play favorites. The server can pay attention to the simulatenous actions and events surrounding up to 3,000 players at a time.
The server is the PERFECT GM!!!! No human can do all of the above. No one.
Now why replace server functions with faulty, arbitrary human elements? Why?

hmm, not really living up to your first statement there...
just because there are human GMs, doesn't mean the server's not doing anything... I daresay the server will have plenty of pre-programmed triggers in, and limitations on the events that can be pushed onto it, so that everything is kept workable. Why have people coming up with events? might aswell ask why have people programming the game. show me a computer that can dream...

Boozek · July 2006

I think it's a great aspect for online play. I grew up in an age where the GM was making up content on the fly, and a home computer was was a convention in science fiction novels. 4-5 friends sitting about with paper and pencil in hand and some really nifty dice. The Dungeonmaster or GameMaster, whichever you prefer set the stage and sent you off on your quest. NO SERVER INVOLVED!!!!

A company is not going to let some nimrod offend it's paying customers, and having a spontaneous out of the ordinary activity is always a blast. I'm all for it, and if a GM abuses the authority...errr this day and age absolutely everything is logged. There really arent many ways a GM could exploit these situations. Why is everyone always a pessimist? Slow down, smell the roses, look at the pretty gurls (or boys whatever the case maybe), let go and have some friggin fun ya naysaying tards :P

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