General: Roundtable Debate: EA/Mythic

Dana · July 2006

Six of our writers gathered to discuss the EA/Mythic deal. Steve Wilson, Frank Mignone, Dan Mann, Cari Davidson, Brian Chapman and Garrett Fuller all give their opinions and then ask your own.

Steve Wilson: For the casual player this might be a good thing. EA is a big well known company that while not being innovative in game-play mechanics is certainly consistent in quality that casual players tend to notice, like top notch graphics and slick UIs that are easily portable to console gaming. They will also have much broader experience conducting entry level consumer testing and quality assurance aimed specifically at users that aren't as savvy as the hardcore gamer. They also have a huge advantage in regards to getting the game into the hands of people that have never played an MMO before. The company is enormously visible in retail chains having contracted deals that allow their products guaranteed premium shelf display, something a small company can never achieve. In addition just being branded with the EA logo may encourage some players that otherwise might not to try the game out. Expanding the audience base of MMOs ensure the longevity of the genre and encourages smaller startups to experiment and expand new concepts.

You can read more here.

Harafnir · July 2006

Like before, I trust in ten years time the only thing we will say is "Mythic who?" So not much to discuss... I liked them.

Beezerbeez · July 2006

I enjoyed the overall optimism of your discussion. I share similar sentiments regarding the potential EA Mythic now has. From cross-platform considerations, to financially secure develpmental teams, to a larger budget for expression and tech development, I'm seeing some good things here. I'm excited to see Mythic working with the UO team. I know people fault large companies when they fail, change things, or lose sight of what made these games great, but EA is showing the desire to support the MMO long into the future utilizing a strong development base. To me this means EA is serious about being successful in this arena -- and we all know successful MMORPGs are not static cookie-cutter games. EA knows this as well. Expect good things. Community concern drives this industry more than any other I've ever seen. We should rest happy realizing developers know this fact and take it to heart.

Beez

Zingster · July 2006

/agree

you learn from your mistakes right? Let's hope they get it right this time...the world is watching hehe.

Hopefully the old saying does not come in affect" More money More Problems"

Owyn · July 2006

Generally people learn from mistakes, but EA seems to have a history of not just repeating their mistakes, but making worse ones in each iteration.

Frankly, I think this is the beginning of the end for Mythic, which is really sad; I liked the company, and enjoyed working with their people during DAOC beta.

It's noteworthy that EA is (with SOE) one of the most reviled companies ever to be involved with online gaming. For the future of Mythic games, I think this is just about as stupid a move as Sigil Games pairing with Sony for the release of Vanguard; and it'll likely have about the same effect on the public's opinion of them, too.

godpuppet · July 2006

Could be good, could be bad, lets see how they play out. I have alot of faith in Mythic but not in EA. I just hope EA wont tug on the leesh too hard.

A Message to EA: Dont become like SoE (Satans Online Enterprise).

Ngeldu5t · July 2006

Mythic has a great team of devs and what they did with DAoC was and is still great but now that EA is in the race everything will change.Like someone said previously this is the beginning of the end for Mythic.Experience is the sum of our mistakes but it seems that this does not apply to EA

AureliusLH · July 2006

As a long time UO player, shorter time DAOC, WOW, Earth and Beyond, EQ, and a whole bunch of other MMORPGs, I'm concerned about EA absorbing Mythic. Not because 'another independent is gone', which is perhaps a shame but hardly a disaster. Rather the problems I forsee come from the EA management mentality - basically, I don't think they 'get' the ideas behind MMORPGs, and the differences between them and standalone, or multi-play FPS, games.

EA is hugely successful at standalones - they know how to spot something that will sell well and quickly, know how to market it, and make an awful lot of money out of it. They get shakier when looking at MMORPGs - for example, UO spent a long time just 'being there', making enough money that they dod not want to shut it down, but not being supported or improved in any significant ways (just releasing an anniversary pack or a 'new land' is not necessarily a significant improvement in anything!). Then they tried changing the way the game functioned, brought in new skills and changed the combat balance of the game from skills-based to item based. That's fine with a standalone game, and the way that an awful lot go - new pack, new levels, new items always sells well to the fans of the core game - but the subtler implications of those changes matter for an MMORPG in ways they never will to a standalone game for two main reasons :

Thousands of players explore combinations of skills, items and locations in ways the developers never could have dreamed, and all sort of imbalances - in combat, game economy, item duplication - start growing expotentially.

A good MMORPG should be looking at holding players long-term, to do that you need to make them happy with the levels of support, consistency of the game world, and the overall game environment. Sudden changes, like adding whole new skillsets or rewriting the combat system, disturb people. It gets worse when those changes have the snowball bug/cheat/imbalance problems I mentioned in the point above.

At present, EA seem to be working at taking out some of the things they put in to UO to try rescue the situation - I hope it works, but doubt it will - but the fundamental problem is that those changes went in in the first place because they were the sort of things that revitalised the standalone games EA exacutives are familiar with. They simply did not understand the problems they were creating in UO (otherwise, frankly, they'd not have done it! Like or hate EA, they don't do things to games that will lose them money, and despite all the spin from EA it's clear from the falling numbers of players you meet in-game, the lower activity on the game forums, and the massive number of guild sites where you learn the players have moved to other games, they are losing people rapidly from UO).

As I said I'm not too worried about an 'independent' game maker being absorbed - let's be honest, there are precious few truly different games out there, ATITD and maybe Ryzom come to mind, but the huge majority share so much in gameplay that I don't differentiate between them much any more. Their differences seem to come in the level of commitment to bug fixes, player interaction and community building rather than anything intrinsic to the gameplay, and community building for most is way down the list of priorities (again ATITD is an honourable exception) probably because it's just so damned hard.

So in summary - if EA take a long-term view of MMORPGs, change a few managers to bring in folks who understand the differences between them and standalone games, and let the developers have the time to test and fully explore the impact of changes before they bring them in, it could be a very good thing. EA have the finances to let that happen, whereas most other MMORPG companies simply don't. If, on the other hand, the EA coroprate mentality still tried to handle their MMORPGs just like their other games, we are likely to see rushed out bug ridden 'expansions', followed by games stagnating, and maybe some 'new' MMORPGs that are actually hopelessly derivitave clones of other games that look 'successful' becaue they make money quickly but really fail to make the most of the opportunity that is there. Past experience makes me think the latter is the more likely result.

avienthas · July 2006

I will have to disagree with the general opinion that DAoC was innovative. When I started playing it (beta and then release day) I couldn´t help thinking : "Oh god, yet another EQ clone". Ok, it had its little diefferences, but in the end it was the same rigid class- and levelsystem, same unimaginative crafting system, same leveling tactics (zerging mobs) and -oh ,ok- it had RvR (even more zerging). Don´t get me wrong, it was -and is- an ok game, but it was never fresh or new.
And I don´t expect Warhammer to be it either. When I heard Mythic is doing it, first thought was : "ok, this will certainly be worth playing, but it will NEVER live up to the hype and the expectations of old Warhammer-fans". Now that EA bought Mythic I´m sure of it.
It WILL be an ok game, because Mythic can do it and EA will provide the money and the marketing engine.
It WON´T be the next big thing because EA hates controversy. Look at how Origin and UO died. EA killed them because they couldn´t stand the controversy. Every design decision beginning with Rennaissance was an attempt to satisfy as many whiners as possible and has led the game every time a step closer to death. If the pattern sounds familiar, then you´ve probably played SWG. It seems the big corps can´t live with radical designs, at some point some guy in a big chair will grab the cookie-cutter and put it on the table.
Maybe I´m just a pessimist, but a year after release, the first thought in everybody´s head when hearing "Warhammer" will be "polished generic". Because Mythic was never radical and EA is as conservative as they get. The combination promises stagnation.

And in a couple of years, like someone else already stated : "Mythic who?"

Miexon · July 2006

Originally posted by godpuppet
A Message to EA: Dont become like SoE (Satans Online Enterprise).

No offense but its too late... EA was the original company to screw over its loyal customers SOE just copied them. EA has cancelled 4 mmo games and given us one of the lowest rated mmo's The Sims Online with all the sims repeats. The only way they can survive is if they keep gobbling up other companies. If i was subscribed to DAoC i probably would have cancelled my subscription from this news instead of waiting a few years for EA to do it for me. GL Mythic.

Techleo · July 2006

I dont forsee any major damage being done to the Mythic team. Sometimes when EA buys out a company it can be a lifesaver. Take Maxis. At the time it was bought out by EA they had been facing a serious downturn in buisness. As Will Wright said it saved his companies collective butt after all of his experimental Sims games. It wasnt something to regrett persay. He was able to hone his skills. EA tho gave him a monetary lifeline which has allowed him after the succeful releases of The Sims 1 and 2 to develop his ultimate project, Spore. Mind you early on it was Sim Everything hehe. So Kudos to Mythic! Keep you eye on the end goals! Make some bucks and in the end maybe you can make your ultimate dream come true!

theanimedude · July 2006

Originally posted by Harafnir
Like before, I trust in ten years time the only thing we will say is "Mythic who?" So not much to discuss... I liked them.

I couldn't agree more.

Infantry Online, a popular game years ago, was an amazing online combination of Isometric graphics, with tactical sci-fi gameplay. An amazing game in all accounts, and made by who? Heck, I don't even remember the game's original owner now... ::::15:: The game was bought out by SOE, completely revamped, and the playerbase now consists of a few hundred players who just can't let the game go.

The fact is that once a company is bought out by some larger corporation, they are so shadowed, they are completely forgotten. I loved Mythic too ::::16::

tkobo · July 2006

Sorry, but i dont think either company, Mythic as an independant or EA, are capable intelligent companies.

EA kills most things it touches and Mythic puts out below average MMOs.

The really scary thing is, these two companies together are far more likely to accentuate their negatives than miracuously turn into some kind of " good" conglomerate company.

Simply said.

Mythic and its products will go even futher downhill.

EA will become even more disliked.

And as always, the customers will be talked into following and buying the next unimaginiative,flawed,bugged,unfinished box of empty promises these companies can throw out the door.

quixadhal · July 2006

I wish the guys at Mythic luck! DAoC was not the first MMO I played, but it was the first one I ever went back to after letting my subscription lapse. They created a game with one of the more balanced PvP systems out there, and breathtaking graphics when it came out.

Unfortunately, EA and SOE seem to share the reverse midas touch. Both are big corporations run by suits who spend their days looking at demographics and financial spreadsheets. While any large company MUST do this, it's usually helpful to have a few people at the table who really know and use the products. I get the feeling neither of these behemoths has had any real input from gamers since early 1990's.

It's not just a problem of bad decisions either. It has become a problem of a tainted image. I know several dozen gamers who were all hyped up on Vanguard until they announced that SOE acquired distribution and hosting rights. Out of that dozen, only two are still willing to even consider trying the game. I see EA gaining the same kind of reputation out there, and the general feeling is if your game isn't a sports title, you might as well take their money and go to Cancun while you can.

So good luck guys! If you somehow maintain your autonomy AND your funding, perhaps you can help turn this trend around. I, for one, am getting tired of having to avoid half the shelves at the software store because of the "taint."

dodsfall · July 2006

I doubt Mythic will get "unlimited funding to further develop their games" from EA. Like any large business, EA is not looking for a place just to dump loads of cash, but to make a profit for the stockholders.

EA looked at Mythic as a business and assumed they could make it more profitable.

It would be a good guess to hear soon of lay-offs from the Mythic branch, and actual cuts in development spending.

Zeflon · July 2006

I will agree with every other person saying EA will just eat Mythic up and we'll be left looking at nothing. Its common knowledge now in the mmorpg community that EA is after nothing more then money. Once the game launches 5months into it EA suites will look at it and see how much money they stand to make in the next 2 years, at which point I am sure Mythic will not even be in sight and there will be layoffs. A year and half into the game they will have another look at it and call it quites because thats the peek range of the game with there pockets stuffed they will let it lay as it was and eventully shut it down.

DrowNoble · July 2006

I begin to wonder if Matt Firor leaving Mythic had anything to do with the EA deal. Coincidence?

EA used to be a good game company, now they are just gobbling up smaller companies and taking their games. I firmly believe that EA just flashed a big check in front of Mythic's brass and POOF we now have a new EA-Mythic Deal!... bleh.

I am amazed that some people, both here and in Mythic, believe that this will be a good thing for DAoC. EA has *zero* experience with MMOG's, Earth & Beyond was done by Westwood. In fact, EA killed E&B according to many former E&B players (myself included).

EA has a class action lawsuit against them for failing to play overtime wages.

EA unwilling or unable to compete with the ESPN sports games signed an exclusivity deal with the NFL and NCAA Football, essentially barring anyone but them from making football games for the next few years.

EA has bought smaller companies before and they were never heard from again. There is no EA-Westwood or EA-Origin now, the titles are all just "EA" even tho EA didn't make the games themselves.

People seriously think this is a GOOD deal for Mythic? Maybe for Mark Jacobs who EA probably wrote him a fat check with lots of zeroes. DAoC's days are numbered, either EA will kill the game or change it so much it will make SWG look like Gaming Perfection.

I've said it before, I will not buy or play any game by EA. So Mythic just lost me as a possible Warhammer subscriber.

Mark Jacobs, if you ever read this... you blew it Big Time!

zalatoy · July 2006

EA = Electronic Assassination

Mythic dosent know it yet but they are alredy dead.

Dont know why developers dont get it yet, but evry time they listen to "or make it for" whiny litle 12 year old kids their games go down the toilet.

Azirophos · July 2006

"Mythic will retain it's creative freedom", "nothing will change for..", blah, blah, ... etc. etc.

Aren't those the same things that were said, when companies like Westwood and Origin were taken over? Mythic will have the same fate. I don't buy this "now it's all different and better" crap.

Personally I think Mythic saw they were on the decline with DAoC and sold out to save themselves, and give them the resources to finish and market Warhammer. Imo though, they exchanged one insecure situation for an other. But then again it's not so much the decision making management (who have a swollen bank account now), but the grunt on the frontline who will take the beating if things get messy.

Parsifal57 · July 2006

Mark Jacobs says there will be no changes in Mythic in the short term (but what about medium and long term), and for that matter how long is short term ? a few weeks after the deal is finalized ?.

I don't see this as a good deal for Mythic, the current subscribers of DAOC and future (If any) subscribers for war.

It already seems clear that EA intend to pull people from Mythic studios off DAoC and possibely WAR to work on UO and/or or other unnamed projects and replace the experienced coders and developers with 'green' (At least green to Mythics developments) people.

This has all the makings of one of the biggest disasters in EA's history, I don't think Mythic will be the same company we knew in six months time regardless of how much positive spin MJ puts on it.

checkthis500 · July 2006

I think the amount of hate towards EA almost verges on naivety.

Mythic reads the boards, as probably does EA so please please keep complaining because I'm sure they're listening.

As for whether this is a good or bad thing, I think it will be great. The way I see it is like someone else said. EA has no clue about MMOs, the ones that they cancelled should have been cancelled as they were the complet opposite of successful. I can't think of an MMO that EA has cancelled that I miss or have even heard of.

And since EA has no clue about MMOs they decide to make an offer to Mythic because they obviously know what they're doing. DAoC is still in the top 5 here at mmorpg.com and it's celebrated for its RvR success.

I hardly think EA will do anything more than make EA Mythic their new MMO branch that will pump out MMOs as fast as NCSoft. And for that I can't wait. Welcome back Imperator among other dream games of the Mythic brain.

Miexon · July 2006

Originally posted by checkthis500

I think the amount of hate towards EA almost verges on naivety.
Mythic reads the boards, as probably does EA so please please keep complaining because I'm sure they're listening.
As for whether this is a good or bad thing, I think it will be great. The way I see it is like someone else said. EA has no clue about MMOs, the ones that they cancelled should have been cancelled as they were the complet opposite of successful. I can't think of an MMO that EA has cancelled that I miss or have even heard of.
And since EA has no clue about MMOs they decide to make an offer to Mythic because they obviously know what they're doing. DAoC is still in the top 5 here at mmorpg.com and it's celebrated for its RvR success.
I hardly think EA will do anything more than make EA Mythic their new MMO branch that will pump out MMOs as fast as NCSoft. And for that I can't wait. Welcome back Imperator among other dream games of the Mythic brain.

No offense but just because YOU haven't heard of a game that EA cancelled or one that you missed doesn't mean it should have been cancelled. Just because a game doesn't satisfy one person does not mean that it should be cancelled. EA could change the way they operate but judging by the past its not looking good. Westwood had some top rated games until EA took over, destroyed everything but the Command and Conquer series, and watched the hatred grow.

I am not complaining, its more like a warning. DAoC is a well liked game and I am hoping that it stays that way and does not become the fifth mmo that EA cancels.

Good Luck

Ardda · July 2006

I'm a pragmatist. That is to say I'm optimistic enough to believe that anything is possible, but enough of a realist not to be disappointed when it doesn't (or perhaps realist enough to know better). When it comes to this merger, two things instantly sprang to mind. The first was Earth and Beyond and it's horrifying ignoble end because, and this may be oversimplifying it, "it wasn't UO." The next thing that sprang to mind as I read about Mythic having autonomy and creative power and such was, "Richard Garriott leaves EA due to creative differences with the creative director of EA." EA is a leech, pure and simple. Going beyond MMOs, look at the sports field and the things they've basically stolen from other innovative games and claimed as their own locked down with exclusivity contracts.

I hate to say it, but Mythic has likely been lied to. They think they have creative control over DAoC and Warhammer. They don't. It's inevitable they will conflict with EA's vision of those two games and it will be a head butting contest between the Mythic side and EA side and what will come out on a stretcher will be the players of those games. EA doesn't have a clue how to handle or run a MMO. They've killed and destroyed innovation and try to use formulas of, "Oh this worked once, let's do it again. And again. And again. Wait, this is different! Shoot it! Kill it!"

Alas, DAoC was the 2nd MMO I ever played. It was the first MMO I ever went back to. Earth and Beyond was my favorite MMO of all time. The Ultima series of games was my favorite RP of all time. RIP Earth and Beyond. RIP Ultima. And, in the future I see a headstone which reads RIP Mythic.

Ardda

DrowNoble · July 2006

Ardda said it best I think. I won't quote him tho, just read above.

EA seems to be competing with SOE for most hated company that borks up games. Wonder when EA will force a NGE on DAoC. For those that think Mythic will retain creative control, just ask former Westwood or Origin employees how much control they had.

Again I say, Mark Jacobs ya Blew It!

Azirophos · July 2006

Originally posted by checkthis500
I think the amount of hate towards EA almost verges on naivety.
Mythic reads the boards, as probably does EA so please please keep complaining because I'm sure they're listening.

I for my part don't care if they are listening or not, but either way people may voice their opinion. Simple as that.

Originally posted by checkthis500
As for whether this is a good or bad thing, I think it will be great. The way I see it is like someone else said. EA has no clue about MMOs, the ones that they cancelled should have been cancelled as they were the complet opposite of successful. I can't think of an MMO that EA has cancelled that I miss or have even heard of.
And since EA has no clue about MMOs they decide to make an offer to Mythic because they obviously know what they're doing. DAoC is still in the top 5 here at mmorpg.com and it's celebrated for its RvR success.
I hardly think EA will do anything more than make EA Mythic their new MMO branch that will pump out MMOs as fast as NCSoft. And for that I can't wait. Welcome back Imperator among other dream games of the Mythic brain.

You talk about naivety of others and then you post this?

checkthis500 · July 2006

Please tell me about all of the "great games" that EA has cancelled. People keep saying that they cancelled all these "great games" yet none have been mentioned except Earth and Beyond..... While it had it's following, I would hardly say it was a "great game."

And the part that I refer to as naive is assuming that EA is going to absorb and destroy Mythic just because they've done that in the past. Yes be wary, and even be worried, but to say it's definitely going to happen like most have said and saying "goodbye mythic" like others have said is naive, because in truth you don't know.

I'm just being optimistic about this, and if others can post about doom then I can post about hope. And considering that the press release directly says that Mythic is going to be their link to MMOs I don't see how that was naive of me to say?

From the press release: "Upon completion of the acquisition, Mythic Entertainment will become EA Mythic, a wholly-owned studio dedicated to developing Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPGs)."

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General: Roundtable Debate: EA/Mythic

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