Why is people so darn impatient with this game?

kishe · March 2006

WoW took 3 years to develop and nobody complained...TC hasn't even taken a year and people are rising on barricades...

bverji · March 2006

it has to do with the fact that they critized other companies for such delays as part of their buisness model and that their (RR) delays came so quickly. The lead designer was making public claims about the beta starting and everything going along great just 2 weeks prior to the engine switch. The lead designer also said that the engine switch would only delay the beta till the begining of febuary. When febuary came and gone not only was there never an update to that statement, but the community manager acted as if such a statment was never made. The new CM was in the middle of just being hired/placed so he might not of known, but that doesn't excuse that there never has been any acknowledement of the febuary date by the comapny (I did actually see one buried in a completely unrelated thread, it was only being used as a defense to some other issue). So it's not just that they are behind schedual, but how it has been handled.

Melquisedec · March 2006

They dont like the way they have handle the info about released, even if there been detailed info about the great changes that means to switch to a new engine.

Many companys give less than info about the reasons of why they make released delays, by posting a two paragraph explanation, but if you go into MMOC you can know what are they doing; in what could be many pages of a normal explanation of a delay of other game companys.

Maybe pretending to be better than others is bad, but it is worst to think that because someone made two mistakes they are ruined. What this game have to offer, and the overall manner that the staff and RR representative has answered diserved hope. And waiting, more than MOST other companys.

I think others company have made worst mistakes and have been more tolerated than RR. And they havent offer the half.

grimboj · July 2006

I have pre ordered the game and Im not convinced that there are any developers currently assigned to it :P Considering they refuse to give refunds I wouldnt be surprised if people simply rant to high heaven until and after its release. This company has an unprofessional web site and has never made a game before - combined with all the promises theyre making, i think people nervously anticipate a failure and beg for evidence to the contrary.

But more importantly - the mmorpg industry is in a slump, people are spread widely across whateva game they can tolerate whilst waiting for the new sliced bread. If this game is not released before one of the next generation (star trek online, tabula rasa, huxley) - it will not even be able to break even.

brando13184 · July 2006

I have been to the studio and have seen the game being developed. Yes, there have been some changes to the original plan, but what you have to realize is that their past CM made a lot of promises that were never even part of the original plan. They opted to go with a completely up-to-date and next generation engine over their old (I will admit crappy) engine. While I agree that they made errors in their original statements, I can also attest that the changes are worth it.

I saw the current state of the game back in March and I have to admit that I was pretty impressed. In my opinion, it could have been put to a closed beta test and many people would have been satisfied with it. RR knows that the MMO industry is in a slump and its working to fight off some of the shortcomings of many other MMO companies if it means sacrificing the release of information.

The company is nowhere near financial trouble and there is a sizeable team assigned to the development of the game. The dev time and cost will end up being much lower than most other games with a higher quality. RR is aiming for quality, which is why you aren't seeing much information. When the new information is released, you will definately be overwhelmed with the opening of the floodgates.

Even while I was there, there was a developer from another respectable MMO that was getting a tour of the studio along with me. RR is farther rearching and stable than some people give them credit for. TC didn't make it out in 6 months, but the next set of games will.

They are still getting crap for their promised launch timeline. All companies do it, but RR has wised up and will not release any more dates because of the bitching by the "community" (and I use that term very loosely)...

Its amazing how splintered the MMO community can get sometimes. People complain about games being released too early and say that companies should take their time. One company is trying to take their time and they're getting flamed for it.

Do you flamers honestly think they owe you an apology? You're living in a fantasy world of your own if you think that they do. To those that pre-ordered and are using that as an excuse to feel like they owe you an apology ... you pre-ordered beta, not a beta date. Nowhere in the agreement did it say when beta would release. RR didn't run over your dog, destroy your life, or try to date your sister ... they don't owe you an apology.

GreenAnt · July 2006

^^^ Agreed!

Jorev · July 2006

Originally posted by grimboj
I have pre ordered the game and Im not convinced that there are any developers currently assigned to it :P Considering they refuse to give refunds I wouldnt be surprised if people simply rant to high heaven until and after its release. This company has an unprofessional web site and has never made a game before - combined with all the promises theyre making, i think people nervously anticipate a failure and beg for evidence to the contrary.

But more importantly - the mmorpg industry is in a slump, people are spread widely across whateva game they can tolerate whilst waiting for the new sliced bread. If this game is not released before one of the next generation (star trek online, tabula rasa, huxley) - it will not even be able to break even.

Why don't you refute the charges with your credit card company?

You have a legitimate right to get a refund if they didn't honor the release date promised to you at the time.

brando13184 · July 2006

They offered a refund for several months after they announced the delay. Anyone that requested a refund during the window was given one.

Scampy · July 2006

To those that pre-ordered and are using that as an excuse to feel like they owe you an apology ... you pre-ordered beta, not a beta date. Nowhere in the agreement did it say when beta would release. RR didn't run over your dog, destroy your life, or try to date your sister ... they don't owe you an apology.

Pre order a beta. Now how weird is that? Asking money for testing your unfinished product so you can improve it?

But never even mind that: I agree that some people will grab any opportunity to complain, no matter how small the cause. However, a company promising something, not delivering and not making any official statement (not apology, but at least an explanation) about it to *paying* customers, is simply wrong.

And no matter what their true intentions are or how wonderful this company actually is, up to now they appear to be (not saying they are) opinionated, rather arrogant (we know how to do things, all those others really don't), mis-promising and unprofessional when it comes to their communication.

I hope for their sake an official statement is forthcoming to clear all doubts once and for all, because I think they've got the rest sorted just fine ...

fulmanfu · July 2006

Originally posted by brando13184
They offered a refund for several months after they announced the delay. Anyone that requested a refund during the window was given one.

forgot the part where the beta was still promised to be just around the corner and everyone believed that. by the time we realized it wasn't going to happen and that we were blatently lied to, ALOT of people started wanting refunds, that is when they changed their mind about it..

why? i'll let you figure that out for yourself. but there is no reason not to refund imo. i would rather them send me a video of them burning my $20's right now than them have it, sure its small money but it must mean something to them..which also says something.

shae · July 2006

Originally posted by brando13184

I have been to the studio and have seen the game being developed. Yes, there have been some changes to the original plan, but what you have to realize is that their past CM made a lot of promises that were never even part of the original plan. They opted to go with a completely up-to-date and next generation engine over their old (I will admit crappy) engine. While I agree that they made errors in their original statements, I can also attest that the changes are worth it.
I saw the current state of the game back in March and I have to admit that I was pretty impressed. In my opinion, it could have been put to a closed beta test and many people would have been satisfied with it. RR knows that the MMO industry is in a slump and its working to fight off some of the shortcomings of many other MMO companies if it means sacrificing the release of information.
The company is nowhere near financial trouble and there is a sizeable team assigned to the development of the game. The dev time and cost will end up being much lower than most other games with a higher quality. RR is aiming for quality, which is why you aren't seeing much information. When the new information is released, you will definately be overwhelmed with the opening of the floodgates.
Even while I was there, there was a developer from another respectable MMO that was getting a tour of the studio along with me. RR is farther rearching and stable than some people give them credit for. TC didn't make it out in 6 months, but the next set of games will.
They are still getting crap for their promised launch timeline. All companies do it, but RR has wised up and will not release any more dates because of the bitching by the "community" (and I use that term very loosely)...
Its amazing how splintered the MMO community can get sometimes. People complain about games being released too early and say that companies should take their time. One company is trying to take their time and they're getting flamed for it.
Do you flamers honestly think they owe you an apology? You're living in a fantasy world of your own if you think that they do. To those that pre-ordered and are using that as an excuse to feel like they owe you an apology ... you pre-ordered beta, not a beta date. Nowhere in the agreement did it say when beta would release. RR didn't run over your dog, destroy your life, or try to date your sister ... they don't owe you an apology.

While I respect your point of view and oppinion Brando, I have to say that I respectfully dissagree with you.

I think it's gotten to this point with RR because people are tired of double talk, alot of "missunderstandings", many mistakes on the part of community management and a lack of very basic communication with the community.

You make very valid points, points that need to be taken into account, the only real issue I've always taken with you is that you refuse to at least understand the other half of the equation.

Either way, I think at this point it's all a matter of perspective and personal choice, either you don't mind a company treating you like crap and being held in the dark or your willing to put up with it because you have enough faith that the end result with be worth while.

No one is forcing anybody's hand here, especially not RR.

brando13184 · July 2006

Originally posted by shae

You make very valid points, points that need to be taken into account, the only real issue I've always taken with you is that you refuse to at least understand the other half of the equation.

I would say that is not exactly true. I've always tried to take a moderate stance and understand both sides of any issue that I'm faced with. In the end however, I may choose to defend one side because I notice that people may need to see that side supported more.

I have said in the past that I agree that there is a lack of information, but constantly stating that isn't going to change anything. If you read the MMOCenter forums you'll see that I've tried to start an unofficial question thread. I've always tried to get Luke to open up to giving more information to the community. In the process I finally realized whats going on and how badly Nathan (the previous CM) mucked up the whole flow of information.

If you get to know Luke, he's the complete opposite of how people are trying to paint him. He's explained everything to me when I've asked him. A lot of what is going on has to do with what happened with the previous CM. He's chomping at the bit to get information released. The higher ups are trying to restrict the flow of information for now because of the previous experience.

Before when they had their open information policy, the previous CM would just make up things on the spot that weren't in the design document or at the final decision state. The Death Realm changes weren't really changes to the design, but more of an update of what was finally decided upon in contrast to what the previous CM promised.

I can't refute the release date promises. That was straight up a mistake. I will admit that I am dissapointed myself, but I don't feel like the company was being "sneaky, or misleading". From previous experience with my own life and with past MMOs, delays are going to happen. I'd love an explanation too, but I guess delays are one area I'm willing to forgive. What I won't forgive is stuff like Horizons that lists features on its retail box that aren't even in the game yet. I guess that's why I'm willing to forgive delays.

RR just recently had a developer Question and Screenshot request event twice on IRC. We should be seeing the results of it fairly soon. There were 37 screenshot requests and Luke said he's pretty sure they can fill them all.

The thing that I refuse to see the other side on, or give any ground to is the claims that the game is vaporware or that RR won't be able to finish the game. Yes, I understand the other side and I can see why people would say that. Not everyone can visit the studio. That's a fact that no one can dispute. I agree it shouldn't be the only source of info, but what RR is hoping is that people that have seen the game and have had the chance to visit will share that what they saw was a positive experience without giving away any of the details of the game.

If I pre-ordered a game and there wasn't much information, a long list of delays, and a complete lack of understanding by the development team, I'd be pissed. Actually, that was me to begin with. What changed was that I started hanging out in IRC and posted more constructive posts on the forums. Instead of sitting there pissed off, I tried to figure out if there was any way that I could help. Along the way I learned what was going on, more info on reasons for delays, and much more info on the actual gameplay. IRC is by far the best place to information, btw. Luke is in there all the time and we usually get other devs stopping by as well.

Things will be turning around soon. Yes, that's an actual soon. You can say that you won't believe me and I don't blaim you. The IRC event was just the beginning of things to come. It was at least something concrete that will help start the flow of information.

BTW, I appreciate your post shae. Its nice to actually be able to discuss an issue with someone rather than getting a flamed response. Also, if it seems like I'm blatantly taking one side, its usually prop up or strengthen that side. I don't think its fair to have a series of flame posts bashing the game without at least some sort of arguments to show the other side. I've vocalized my dissapointment to Luke several times. I just don't make a huge ordeal out of it on some forums somewhere. It also helps to avoid calling him a liar and treat him like a human being.

bverji · July 2006

Brando I appreciate that your involved with finding out information about RR, and that you have visited their company. And, I have no doubt that they have some pretty bells and whistles to show visitors, what I question has more to do with the company’s leadership (and I think most peoples criticisms). You say that things will turn around "soon" but in that is the admission that until this point things have been handled sub-par (to be very generous). I hope your right and things change, but I have heard that from CG every month since he took over as community manager.

As shea pointed out our discontent has a lot less to do with no information about the game being release or delays and more with "people are tired of double talk, a lot of "missunerstandings" many mistakes on the part of community management and a lack of very basic communication with the community."

Quite frankly this exposes the youth and lack of leadership of those in charge of the company. It’s obvious RR is run by kids. You can have all the talented artists and programmers in the world, but without someone with the vision and experience to keep the project(now projects) on tract it doesn’t mean a lot, and it’s been pretty obvious that admisstration has been a primary short coming of RR’s.

Nathan has gotten a lot of slack (the original CM) but for the things that the RR has been the most criticized for has been statements givin by Adam himself (the lead designer) and Luke (the current community manager). Even with the death realm "changes" I don't remmeber anyone being annoyed that there were changes or pointing back to nathans statements and crying how could RR change. Some people didn't like the preposed plan, but it wasn't a backlash for there being to much conjectured information being released before. Which for me not having the death system in toll by that time only brings questions about Adams naivity and/or honesty.

Edited to reflect CG's statement bellow...I mistakenly stated he was lead designer and meant community manager.

bverji · July 2006

Also the fact that the "death penalty" was simply a creation of nathan's is just more of CG's spin. Adam himself had talked about it in interveiws. CG seems to just make up crap as he goes along.

CaesarsGhost · July 2006

I was not then, and am not now, a "Lead Designer".

shae · July 2006

Brando,

I wholy and completely appreciate your post, it's informative, it clarify's your position and like you, I enjoy at least being able to dissagree with someone without getting a "Well, you suck because..." reply. Sincerely, thank you for that.

You've obviously put in just as much effort, if not much more, with this game then I have and you are willing to share what you've picked up in a calm, collected manner, we need that here. I certainly see some of your oppinions more clearly now and even agree with some and you've managed to at least explain a few things to me, which helps. I just sincerely wish this had come from other sources.

I'll be the first to admit that I've not always kept a perfectly cool head when it has come to this game and company, much more so then other titles I've been interested in. I think mostly because I really fell for the "idea" of it all, it had that something that really attracted me and got my imagination flying high, only to be let down with a thud. It was a cruel of them but as a community member I've been willing to walk through the troubles with them the entire time, if only they'd let us in, which they never have. And that, more then anything, has only compounded the cruelty.

Through it all though, my position has never been a vindictive one, I've defended RR many times, on many forums and many chats. Rather, I've always tried to reinforce the need to treat the community better, not just the one's that reach out and make a huge effort to find out what's really going on but the every day person that hear's about the game from another fan, reads a little blurb about it on a website.

Don't treat us like a virus, treat us like the people that will one day pay to play your game, treat us like the people that will do all the ground work for you and get you more players, treat us like the people that will be the building blocks of your community. This is a special company, with some especially talented people that have great ideas, I think I've just always had a hard time reasoning to myself why they insist on treating their community like every other mmo out there. This was the chance to do it differently, to reach out and really make a stand. I thought CG (Luke?) was a start to that.

Even you must admit Brando that this last drama (with the community mistakenly thinking we had info comming in June) could have been avoided and handled much better after the fact. I know theres alot of learning going on in the process, but had we just a basic communication it could have been much less of an issue.

I believe you though, when you say we're going to see a difference soon, you've renewed some enthusiasm for me and for that, I also thank you.

Anyways, as passionate as I am about MMO's and in this instance RR making TC and other games, I'm even more passionate about their communitys, it's what I hope to one day make a carreer out of. I know quite often I can seem like a pain in the ass, I understand this but that's just me, I speak (or write) what I think as honestly as possible, I know I'm not always right and that's why I try to keep an open mind for posts exactly like yours.

Thanks again for sharing.

pyros98 · July 2006

I'll be happy when there's new information that I don't have to travel a couple thousand miles to get.

DeletedAcct · July 2006

Can someone post the beta forums url? Been so long since pre-order and I do most of my forum hunting here. I can't remember the address

pyros98 · July 2006

Go to here and then click on the Community link and log in. If you have beta access you'll see the forums, which has all the information that you'll wonder what you've been missing

DeletedAcct · July 2006

Thanks pyros.... I think. Can they tell us any less?

brando13184 · July 2006

Be careful what you wish for! haha

I strategy of RR right now seems to be that they will release information when they are 100% sure it is in the game and it is functioning how they want it.

Lots of games launch into beta with an incomplete features list, but I have a feeling you'll see a much more complete list when TC goes into testing. They are striving to establish a stable and fully functioning game before releasing information and drawing attention to themselves.

I personally don't have a problem with the amount of information that is out there, but I can understand that some people do take issue with the situation.

In the end I think a lot of people will understand why they did what they did and why they are being tightlipped at the moment. Its not to be sneaky and its not to be evil and sit there smirking while the community suffers. They're trying to avoid the pitfalls of releasing an unfinished game, which is taking a bit more time. The next set of games will release 6-8 months no doubt, but TC is the first so they're setting themselves up for the future.

bverji · July 2006

delete

pyros98 · July 2006

Originally posted by brando13184

Be careful what you wish for! haha
I strategy of RR right now seems to be that they will release information when they are 100% sure it is in the game and it is functioning how they want it.
Lots of games launch into beta with an incomplete features list, but I have a feeling you'll see a much more complete list when TC goes into testing. They are striving to establish a stable and fully functioning game before releasing information and drawing attention to themselves.
I personally don't have a problem with the amount of information that is out there, but I can understand that some people do take issue with the situation.
In the end I think a lot of people will understand why they did what they did and why they are being tightlipped at the moment. Its not to be sneaky and its not to be evil and sit there smirking while the community suffers. They're trying to avoid the pitfalls of releasing an unfinished game, which is taking a bit more time. The next set of games will release 6-8 months no doubt, but TC is the first so they're setting themselves up for the future.

Being tightlipped and releasing an incomplete game aren't related.

It has been confirmed that the original Dev Journals aren't accurate currently, which means they have changed (and Nathan lied to us) direction a bit. This worries me because the journals is where I got hyped for this game and which I pre-ordered...one day I'll learn not to pre-order MMO's, useless waste of time.

So until CG will take the time and update what is not true in the current Dev journals, I'm still gonna be very skeptical and harsh on RR for the current handling of information.

Howdy, Stranger!

Why is people so darn impatient with this game?

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Why is people so darn impatient with this game?

Comments