Some of the huge DDO Fanboys are leaving now

Crash86 · July 2006

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50908

For those who were around for closed/open beta and headstart, the name on this goodbye post will be familiar.

For those who weren't, this person was one of the three most ardent supporters of the game. Like all fanboys, he chose to ignore all of its flaws to proclaim to the world that Turbine could do no wrong. It was obvious to him, and therefore should have been to all who criticised the game, that any problems the game had were caused by the way the playerbased chose to play the game, not the game itself.

He even came over to this board to try to stem the tide of bad press for the game when it was noted on the DDO boards that we were badmouthing the game. I never had any issues with him personally, only that he was so enamored that he couldn't see how badly the development of the game had been botched by Turbine.

Of the three fanboys, now only Dane remains.

Scaris · July 2006

Ouch.

grape · July 2006

Well, one thing good about sub par MMORPG's. Maybe they become a learning ground for fanbois to grow up and really see what is wrong with them.

finnmacool1 · July 2006

Couldnt read the link because im not a ddo subscriber anymore but i cant see how that game could have any fanbois. I mean even if you had 5 real life friends to play the game with, you run out of missions quick and then it just becomes run the same missions over and over.

I enjoyed the first time running a mission but after that its just boring. Add forced grouping and all too often you end up in a group that has done the mission before even if you havent and just runs it as fast as they can killing the only interesting part of the game lol.

boognish75 · July 2006

in my brief stay in ddo, i enjoyed it, true u can run dungeons multiple times, and i noticed that when you did each dungeon on dif lvls multiple times the loot at the end was differenmt

Crash86 · July 2006

Originally posted by finnmacool1

Couldnt read the link because im not a ddo subscriber anymore but i cant see how that game could have any fanbois. I mean even if you had 5 real life friends to play the game with, you run out of missions quick and then it just becomes run the same missions over and over.

You're still logged in via a cookie. Click the link, then click 'logout'.

I haven't had an account since March, and I can read the boards just fine. Can't post, but I can read.

Elnator · July 2006

Yep... my biggest problem with DDO isn't really the missions. I actually really enjoyed them. My problem is three fold:

Character customization / Lack of ability to roleplay: Everyone is the same. A dwarf looks pretty much exactly the same as every other dwarf. You can't really make them look all that much different. This is compounded by the fact that there are like 3 different looks for each type of armor so people don't really have the ability to wear different kinds of armor. Compounded again by the fact that you can't even dye armor so you can't even look unique in that way.
Missions are imbalanced with each other. Given any 10 quests, of the same exact level, one or two of them will have far better rewards... be it in the form of items at the end or XP awarded or time required to get equal XP. Because of that even though there ARE a lot of friggen quests in the game people tend to gravitate towards the same 10-15 quests. There's well over 200-300 quests in the game now. Problem is that there are 10-15 quests that EVERYONE does... and nobody does any of the rarer ones. Matter of fact my last day in the game was the most fun I ever had in DDO... we had a group of people, many of them 3 month vets, who had NEVER gone on a quest we chose to do.

The rewards at the end were 'meh' but we had a blast doing something none of us had ever done. What was telling was the fact that 3 of the people in the group had multiple level 10 characters and had NEVER done this level 8 quest before. It absolutely FLOORS me that the quests are so unbalanced with each other. If they'd balance out the loot tables people wouldn't stick to the top 10 or so quests, they'd spread out a bit more and people would have more fun. Because, trust me, it's NOT fun doing WW - STK - TR - Catacombs - Deleras - SC and Dragon over and over and over and over and over.
Lack of things to do BESIDES questing. Yes, eventually folks get tired of running around killing monsters. The emotes in the game are excruciatingly limited. Thus limiting the ability to roleplay. There's no crafting whatsoever and no player economy. Thus things, while they are predictable in price, are locked by NPC's as to what you have to pay. There's no world to explore.... Sure there's lots of "adventure areas" but they're instanced and, again, are group oriented. There's no WORLD where you can just go out the gates of stormreach and wander your way to a nearby villiage, etc. The ENTIRE GAME (well except the city zones themselves) is instanced. Only the Stormreach City and House Zones are not instanced, but they are zoned.

Those are my "big 3" complaints with DDO. To be honest they could fix a lot of things by just fixing #2.... #3 and #1 would REALLY help but fixing #2 would stop the hemorhage of players leaving the game. Because they wouldn't get bored. People get bored in DDO because the only quests to do are the same ten that people ALWAYS do. Sure you occasionally (As I did) manage to get a group together to do something different... but that's the exception rather than the rule.

And Turbine's most recent 'fix' to address this issue was: Add a high level content zone for the level 8+ crowd and stick a drow race in that you have to grind missions endlessly for faction before you can use it. Sorry... that's NOT going to fix things... in fact it's making them worse because people are just doing the same ass noobmobile quests over and over on normal then hard then elite to get faction as quickly as humanly possible so they can get their Drizzt Do'Urden clone.

boognish75 · July 2006

Originally posted by Elnator
Yep... my biggest problem with DDO isn't really the missions. I actually really enjoyed them. My problem is three fold:

Character customization / Lack of ability to roleplay: Everyone is the same. A dwarf looks pretty much exactly the same as every other dwarf. You can't really make them look all that much different. This is compounded by the fact that there are like 3 different looks for each type of armor so people don't really have the ability to wear different kinds of armor. Compounded again by the fact that you can't even dye armor so you can't even look unique in that way.

Missions are imbalanced with each other. Given any 10 quests, of the same exact level, one or two of them will have far better rewards... be it in the form of items at the end or XP awarded or time required to get equal XP. Because of that even though there ARE a lot of friggen quests in the game people tend to gravitate towards the same 10-15 quests. There's well over 200-300 quests in the game now. Problem is that there are 10-15 quests that EVERYONE does... and nobody does any of the rarer ones. Matter of fact my last day in the game was the most fun I ever had in DDO... we had a group of people, many of them 3 month vets, who had NEVER gone on a quest we chose to do.

The rewards at the end were 'meh' but we had a blast doing something none of us had ever done. What was telling was the fact that 3 of the people in the group had multiple level 10 characters and had NEVER done this level 8 quest before. It absolutely FLOORS me that the quests are so unbalanced with each other. If they'd balance out the loot tables people wouldn't stick to the top 10 or so quests, they'd spread out a bit more and people would have more fun. Because, trust me, it's NOT fun doing WW - STK - TR - Catacombs - Deleras - SC and Dragon over and over and over and over and over.

Lack of things to do BESIDES questing. Yes, eventually folks get tired of running around killing monsters. The emotes in the game are excruciatingly limited. Thus limiting the ability to roleplay. There's no crafting whatsoever and no player economy. Thus things, while they are predictable in price, are locked by NPC's as to what you have to pay. There's no world to explore.... Sure there's lots of "adventure areas" but they're instanced and, again, are group oriented. There's no WORLD where you can just go out the gates of stormreach and wander your way to a nearby villiage, etc. The ENTIRE GAME (well except the city zones themselves) is instanced. Only the Stormreach City and House Zones are not instanced, but they are zoned.
Those are my "big 3" complaints with DDO. To be honest they could fix a lot of things by just fixing #2.... #3 and #1 would REALLY help but fixing #2 would stop the hemorhage of players leaving the game. Because they wouldn't get bored. People get bored in DDO because the only quests to do are the same ten that people ALWAYS do. Sure you occasionally (As I did) manage to get a group together to do something different... but that's the exception rather than the rule.

And Turbine's most recent 'fix' to address this issue was: Add a high level content zone for the level 8+ crowd and stick a drow race in that you have to grind missions endlessly for faction before you can use it. Sorry... that's NOT going to fix things... in fact it's making them worse because people are just doing the same ass noobmobile quests over and over on normal then hard then elite to get faction as quickly as humanly possible so they can get their Drizzt Do'Urden clone.

what did you do in the origonal dungeons and dragons, just curious, cause i nvr did any crafting or really much of anything but quest dungeons and forests, if you are looking at this to be like an eq2 or wow clone you are not in the right place, the game is newer, there will be more dungeons to run in the future, but i dont see any crafting , as there was not any crafting i recall in my tabletop experiences, of course they will have better rewards, whatever is at the chests in the end of the dungeons is rolled, and by chance you get what you may want,

Scaris · July 2006

Originally posted by boognish75
what did you do in the origonal dungeons and dragons, just curious, cause i nvr did any crafting or really much of anything but quest dungeons and forests, if you are looking at this to be like an eq2 or wow clone you are not in the right place, the game is newer, there will be more dungeons to run in the future, but i dont see any crafting , as there was not any crafting i recall in my tabletop experiences, of course they will have better rewards, whatever is at the chests in the end of the dungeons is rolled, and by chance you get what you may want,

I always fletched my own arrows!

I had a friend that made his dwarven life sword...

Crafting in the PnP version was what the DM made of it. Often it was something that could be done via email or IM in between gaming sessions with your buddies to keep things really going with the campaign.

Elnator · July 2006

Originally posted by boognish75

what did you do in the origonal dungeons and dragons, just curious, cause i nvr did any crafting or really much of anything but quest dungeons and forests, if you are looking at this to be like an eq2 or wow clone you are not in the right place, the game is newer, there will be more dungeons to run in the future, but i dont see any crafting , as there was not any crafting i recall in my tabletop experiences, of course they will have better rewards, whatever is at the chests in the end of the dungeons is rolled, and by chance you get what you may want,

Hmm I had an apothecary. I made potions and whatnot on the side. It was actually quite fun. We even roleplayed it a little, not a ton. But the fact is that if you used the 'professions' within the game you could even make your own gear. Our group had an armorsmith a weaponsmith a fletcher and me, an apothecary. At one point we even made our own trinket type magic items like flashlights: Continual ligth on a copper piece... insert copper piece into white scroll tube and paint outside black

. TADA instant flashlight... no batteries required

Same idea as a bullseye lantern but no oil needed either. And works under water.

I guess your DM didn't let you have your own homes in the game either? You never got high enough to have your own lordship or kingdom? Sure you CAN play AD&D and never do anything but overland or dungeon adventures. But there is crafting in D&D... go read your DMG. There's also housing (Again read DMG).... there's even *gasp* a world map to travel from city to city on with RANDOM encounters. I assume your DM never had you have to actually walk from one town to another? Just "foop..." "ok today you're in shadowhaven and are in the court of the lord?"

AD&D is not limited to "just" Adventures. If you think it is then your DM sucked. No offense. Probably one of those "DM's" who just used the pre-packaged modules.

finnmacool1 · July 2006

Originally posted by Elnator

AD&D is not limited to "just" Adventures. If you think it is then your DM sucked. No offense. Probably one of those "DM's" who just used the pre-packaged modules.

Well i think that may be going too far

. Games,campaigns,sessions,etc. vary from differnt players with different interests. Ive gamed with skilled players and dm's in all kinds of settings. Some dm's use existing worlds/adventures,some modify existing, some create their own, and some do a little of all three.

Talon54 · July 2006

On crafting...

As a long time D&D DM, i actually hated player crafting within PnP. There was always that one player in the group that wanted to waste my time with crafting. Sure, crafting does have a small place within D&D, and if done correctly both by the player and the DM, it can work, but i never liked wasting my time on it. I am also a big believer in actaully going out and adventuring for your gear. Why go attack that wizards tower to retrive a Staff of Power when you can just take a gold/exp hit and make one. Not very heroic if you ask me. But hey thats just my opinion, it's your game, play it how you like.

That said though, DDO is an MMO, and an MMO without crafting or some alternative to dungeon crawling does take a hit in its player base.

On the fanbois...

I can't say i am surprised. My wife and i have recently also moved away from DDO for pretty much the same reasons as Jab, as have several of our RL friends. Now i don't consider myself a DDO fanboi, but i was exceited to play a D&D online game, and did enjoy and defended it for 3 months or so. Hell i think i even got into a couple of debates with Crash86 on these boards. I doubt we will return, but you never know, in a year or so if nothing else is out that seems interesting, we may try it again. Twighlight forge was the last straw for us, and i am sure it was for some others as well.

Elnator · July 2006

Originally posted by Talon54

On crafting...
Why go attack that wizards tower to retrive a Staff of Power when you can just take a gold/exp hit and make one. Not very heroic if you ask me. But hey thats just my opinion, it's your game, play it how you like.
That said though, DDO is an MMO, and an MMO without crafting or some alternative to dungeon crawling does take a hit in its player base.

Oh don't get me wrong. We never crafted true magic items. We made useful trinkets that helped our characters on 'intangibles'. For example we got sick of lugging rations around all the time so we did the research and roleplayed out a session where we managed to create magic items to create food on the fly for us. And our flashlights, etc. Saved on having to lug 80 friggen torches into a dungeon and 17 weeks of iron rations, etc.

But for the cool stuff? We always adventured for it.

But your 2nd point is the pertinent one... It's ok to be an AD&D purist and not really want to deal with crafting. But if you do that then you have to be willing to take the playerbase hit because most MMORPG players want things to do BESIDES just dungeon crawling. Especially something to do during those times when a group just isn't available at your level or none of the ones available need someone of your class. At those times you need *something else* to do. And soloing just aint fun for many folks. Personally I don't MIND soloing but I'd much rather be in a group.

Player housing is a way to occupy players. Building and/or decorating a personal home is a LOT of fun for many people. I know folks in EQ2 who have spent HOURS gathering stuff for their homes and more HOURS just sitting around getting it arranged how they want it. In UO, SWG and a few other games I know people who have spent hundreds of hours just dorking around with their houses. Etc.

Crafting: Even if it were just starter gear for low level characters.

Player economy: Even if there were NO crafting alllowing players to sell the gear they get to other players, via a vendor at their home for example, instead of to an NPC who is somehow managing to buy items at 10% of value (what's up with that anyway? In my campaign any vendor who tried to rook a rogue by that margin would be subject to thievery in the very near future) and then marking them UP to sell them back to players.... Yep... to hell with hitting the dungeon... my rogue is gonna hit that shop tonight and steal that shopkeeper's inventory... and hit his vault as well!.

Dying clothes/armor etc: I didn't see you tackle this one.... Why Turbine doesn't allow this perplexes me.

Altering the look of armor (crafting): Ok so don't implement crafting that can make items... just allow people who choose to be an armor smith the ability to ALTER an item so that it looks different. IE: Change the skin of the armor to another available skin. Maybe add some skins that you can't get from drops but only an armorsmith can give. Etc.

There are tons of things that Turbine could do with the game, even without adding a non-instanced explorable map. That is another addition that they could do but I'm not pushing for it. The game isn't bad as is it just lacks things to do. Sure more quests is nice but sometimes you want to do something besides questing. And a LOT of people don't want to keep a subscription to a different MMO going just to be able to craft or whatever. If I have to subscribe to that other MMO to craft I may as well PLAY that other MMO, right? So why play DDO at all, especially for $15 a month?

Those are the problems that plague DDO. And amazingly ... most of them would be EASY to implement.... and wouldn't interfere with the ruleset at all.

baff · July 2006

Crafting worked well for me in PnP.

Aside from all the combat tweaks like continual light stones and contingency fireballs, or magic mouths that shout "there is a thief behind you", I played in some games were the DM had crafting done well.

Items can be made from combinations of other items that are achieved as subquest rewards so that you have something very useful ready for the finale. Or an Artifact for the reward.

I think the trick is not to devote to much game time to it. As long as it is better than the players existing kit he will love it.

A combo wand snapped together from the wands of a mages circle you hunted down 1 by 1, dragonscale armour with scales from each colour of dragon you slayed.

.

Housing and stuff was just things I made while clowning around for myself bored. Sometime it woul dfind it's way into an adventure when I was dming.

trike · July 2006

Originally posted by Crash86

Originally posted by finnmacool1

Couldnt read the link because im not a ddo subscriber anymore but i cant see how that game could have any fanbois. I mean even if you had 5 real life friends to play the game with, you run out of missions quick and then it just becomes run the same missions over and over.

You're still logged in via a cookie. Click the link, then click 'logout'.

I haven't had an account since March, and I can read the boards just fine. Can't post, but I can read.

I bailed back in beta, and I still apparently have an account there, too.

I was never into D&D as a kid, but DDO looked interesting, and all of my online friends I play other games with hare hardcore D&D players from way back. (As in, Day One, first release of the PnP RPG.) None of us -- newbies and hardcore fans alike -- stayed past the beta. The game just wasn't that engaging.

zipit · July 2006

Originally posted by Crash86

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50908
For those who were around for closed/open beta and headstart, the name on this goodbye post will be familiar.
For those who weren't, this person was one of the three most ardent supporters of the game. Like all fanboys, he chose to ignore all of its flaws to proclaim to the world that Turbine could do no wrong. It was obvious to him, and therefore should have been to all who criticised the game, that any problems the game had were caused by the way the playerbased chose to play the game, not the game itself.
He even came over to this board to try to stem the tide of bad press for the game when it was noted on the DDO boards that we were badmouthing the game. I never had any issues with him personally, only that he was so enamored that he couldn't see how badly the development of the game had been botched by Turbine.
Of the three fanboys, now only Dane remains.

Always there are 2. An apprentice and a Master - look harder into the DDO forum and you shall see...

locdog420692 · July 2006

Originally posted by Elnator

Originally posted by boognish75

what did you do in the origonal dungeons and dragons, just curious, cause i nvr did any crafting or really much of anything but quest dungeons and forests, if you are looking at this to be like an eq2 or wow clone you are not in the right place, the game is newer, there will be more dungeons to run in the future, but i dont see any crafting , as there was not any crafting i recall in my tabletop experiences, of course they will have better rewards, whatever is at the chests in the end of the dungeons is rolled, and by chance you get what you may want,

Hmm I had an apothecary. I made potions and whatnot on the side. It was actually quite fun. We even roleplayed it a little, not a ton. But the fact is that if you used the 'professions' within the game you could even make your own gear. Our group had an armorsmith a weaponsmith a fletcher and me, an apothecary. At one point we even made our own trinket type magic items like flashlights: Continual ligth on a copper piece... insert copper piece into white scroll tube and paint outside black

. TADA instant flashlight... no batteries required

Same idea as a bullseye lantern but no oil needed either. And works under water.

I guess your DM didn't let you have your own homes in the game either? You never got high enough to have your own lordship or kingdom? Sure you CAN play AD&D and never do anything but overland or dungeon adventures. But there is crafting in D&D... go read your DMG. There's also housing (Again read DMG).... there's even *gasp* a world map to travel from city to city on with RANDOM encounters. I assume your DM never had you have to actually walk from one town to another? Just "foop..." "ok today you're in shadowhaven and are in the court of the lord?"

AD&D is not limited to "just" Adventures. If you think it is then your DM sucked. No offense. Probably one of those "DM's" who just used the pre-packaged modules.

I remember when i played pen and paper dnd 16 years ago, I had huge
towns, villages, and ports on 100 sheets of graph paper! People could
build their own business, houses, etc. and craft items to sell or craft
items for own. Even owning their own ships! Yes there is alot to do
in pnp dnd besides dungeons if your DM is creative and doen't suck! My crap was so much fun outside of missions that everyone spent most their time playing around with all my city and towns than dungeons! lol

Unknown · August 2006

If you wait long enough we all get tired of a game and move on (Though some stick with games like UO since their inception and still play daily ..stupid brother!). Not sure why a player leaving a game they once loved is that much of a surprise as most of us have done it at one time or another.

For me personally, I really didn't like the game in the beta, but I've been steadily building a great love for the game over time once I got past my anti-social habits of the past. The game is far from perfect and at times Turbine's handling of the game reminds me of Verant reborn. I don't care for TF (or the dragon) much but new modules bring other changes to the game that I do like. But content, while nice, isn't why I play games. Grouping with friends and adventuring with players I don't know is what keeps me looking forward to the next quest. I don't farm things to avoid boredom that will surely come and I know eventually I will tire of DDO like all the other dozens of mmog's I've played over the last 10 years but for right now I think it's headed in the right direction and I'm having fun. That's all I need.

After reading through the forums on this site I get the idea that everyone hates everything and anyone that dares to enjoy something. Well go ahead and attack me. I'm an easy target and I'm too busy to remember to come back here and check these forums more than every other month. Good luck finding something you like to play.

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Some of the huge DDO Fanboys are leaving now

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Some of the huge DDO Fanboys are leaving now

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