Originally posted by Zorvan People who want free for all pvp are a minority in the mmo genre. Consensual and designated areas/faction pvp are fine. It keeps the griefers out, you still get your pvp fix (unless no game is good unless you can kill people and take their stuff anytime, in which case you ARE an ass), and those who prefer not to be killed by other players and just enjoy the game they are paying for the way they want to enjoy it are satisfied. Everyone of importance is satisfied. If there were so many people clamoring for all out pvp, Shadowbane wouldn't be on its last legs. It would've had a large enough playerbase that it would've been very profitable for its creators to revanp the graphics and bring it up to modern standards. It was a niche game because the players who want that style of play are a niche community and sadly just not very profitable. And please, if anyone feels I'm wrong, feel free to state why. But if the worst thing you can do is call me a carebear, then don't bother. Why aggravate stupidity by demonstrating it as well?
you're wrong
Shadowbane did poorly because of many things- lack of funding in the beginning being a huge one, also still to this day I hear people say they tried the game and enjoyed the PvP but hated the UI. The massive learning curve doesn't help, although I personally like that part since it adds a lot of depth to character building. SB is my favorite game still, but looking at its overall failure and saying, 'see, pvp games don't work' is ignoring all the real problems that got it where it is today.
But the players are there, and when a pure PvP game is done that takes advantage of the things SB got right, with enough money to provide stable servers, it will be profitable to whoever makes it happen. Will it be another WoW? nope. And since the huge companies with the massive bankrolls are only interested in WoW sized MMO's now that they have seen its possible, they won't be interested. This means that people wanting this type of game will have to wait for a developer in just the right position to make it happen, and thats fine with me... I can get by in SB till then.
Just for the record, EVE has that kind of PvP gameplay. You die in a PvP battle, you lose your ship, and risk losing all the equipment/items on the ship. Also, when you die you can take a serious skill loss unless you keep yourself well insured, which still won't pay for the entire ship and the equipment/items loss (some of which the player that killed you can pickup).
mindless kill on sight-this achieves making the game not fun and by doing so in every game makes it so main stream hates it
abusing unbalance bugs- these should be reported, not shared with the entire population. one again by abusing these bugs you make the game not fun for the main stream.
extreme bragging-your avatar only a 10 by 60 pixel(s), you have no idea how pitiful this makes you look. though it does hurt some people(your goal) once again making it so mainstream hate your genre.
use of 1337 speak-wow you look like a mmo preppy/groupie by not realizing it takes more time to type.
if main stream doesn't like your game, no big company is ever going to make it.
your counter-"i don't want to play with carebears". um yes you do those carebears(as you call anyone who doesn't like the genre that you ruined) are what makes devs see the cash. more player base=more cash.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
To address those of you who are talking about Guild Wars being fun with instanced PvP: personally, I found this game incredibly dull and only played it for about 2 weeks before I gave up. Not only do you not gain anything for winning, every fight feels the exact same. Sure, you fight groups with different types of characters in them... but in reality you make a character and you have 3-4 moves you press continuously during the fight. Running into the enemy and pressing 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 was not fun for me... it didn't seem like my tactical play as an individual made any serious contribution to the group, the only thing that made a difference was when we chose to engage (AKA not charging in the middle of 2 groups, waiting until they started fighting and then busting in on them when they were both half dead).
To agree with some other posters, I think that "pure-PvP" games such as SB have reasons besides the PvP system as the reasons they went downhill. The real problem here is getting a balance between a well-designed game and a game which offers balanced and fun PvP. SB was fun when you were fighting, but farming daily for your citys upkeep only to have it knocked down by the latest server zerg was not fun. In addition, I have never seen a travel system in an MMORPG which was as terrible as the one offered in SB. Oftentimes our group(s) would run through the 4-5 PvP "hotzones" looking for some action, and it would take us literally HOURS to run between these 4-5 spots because the map was so gigantic. In addition, the mass outbreak of duping and exploiting led people to get extremely frustrated with the game. When you are farming 10 hours per day for your city's upkeep, and a 1-man nation next to you has maxed out vendors and trainers because he's duped literally over a billion gold, the game gets VERY frustrating.
I would be very interested to see what a large-scale game would be like with a PvP system which was balanced, enjoyable, offered rewards to victors, offered negative effects to losers, and was easy to participate in even if you just had 15 minutes to log on would look like. One of the beauties of UO was that you could log in, recall to brit cem, and find a fight or two inbetween classes or before bed if you only had a short time to play.
Originally posted by Jerek_ Shadowbane did poorly because of many things- lack of funding in the beginning being a huge one, also still to this day I hear people say they tried the game and enjoyed the PvP but hated the UI. The massive learning curve doesn't help, although I personally like that part since it adds a lot of depth to character building. SB is my favorite game still, but looking at its overall failure and saying, 'see, pvp games don't work' is ignoring all the real problems that got it where it is today. But the players are there, and when a pure PvP game is done that takes advantage of the things SB got right, with enough money to provide stable servers, it will be profitable to whoever makes it happen. Will it be another WoW? nope. And since the huge companies with the massive bankrolls are only interested in WoW sized MMO's now that they have seen its possible, they won't be interested. This means that people wanting this type of game will have to wait for a developer in just the right position to make it happen, and thats fine with me... I can get by in SB till then.
Yep,SB isn't the perfect FFA PvP but it's a good game until then. Probably helps I'm only starting to go through the game. (currently 38 human ranger....was PL'd by R7's)
I have high hopes for Darkfall being the game I latch onto though once its out. Or SB2 if that 'ever' emerges....or even a better made WOW 2 that was more PvP-oriented.
Comments
you're wrong
Shadowbane did poorly because of many things- lack of funding in the beginning being a huge one, also still to this day I hear people say they tried the game and enjoyed the PvP but hated the UI. The massive learning curve doesn't help, although I personally like that part since it adds a lot of depth to character building. SB is my favorite game still, but looking at its overall failure and saying, 'see, pvp games don't work' is ignoring all the real problems that got it where it is today.
But the players are there, and when a pure PvP game is done that takes advantage of the things SB got right, with enough money to provide stable servers, it will be profitable to whoever makes it happen. Will it be another WoW? nope. And since the huge companies with the massive bankrolls are only interested in WoW sized MMO's now that they have seen its possible, they won't be interested. This means that people wanting this type of game will have to wait for a developer in just the right position to make it happen, and thats fine with me... I can get by in SB till then.
you guys ruined your own genre.
if main stream doesn't like your game, no big company is ever going to make it.
your counter-"i don't want to play with carebears". um yes you do those carebears(as you call anyone who doesn't like the genre that you ruined) are what makes devs see the cash. more player base=more cash.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Sorry i fogot to include this with the original post http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7_files/Subscriptions_12473_image001.gif
To address those of you who are talking about Guild Wars being fun with instanced PvP: personally, I found this game incredibly dull and only played it for about 2 weeks before I gave up. Not only do you not gain anything for winning, every fight feels the exact same. Sure, you fight groups with different types of characters in them... but in reality you make a character and you have 3-4 moves you press continuously during the fight. Running into the enemy and pressing 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 was not fun for me... it didn't seem like my tactical play as an individual made any serious contribution to the group, the only thing that made a difference was when we chose to engage (AKA not charging in the middle of 2 groups, waiting until they started fighting and then busting in on them when they were both half dead).
To agree with some other posters, I think that "pure-PvP" games such as SB have reasons besides the PvP system as the reasons they went downhill. The real problem here is getting a balance between a well-designed game and a game which offers balanced and fun PvP. SB was fun when you were fighting, but farming daily for your citys upkeep only to have it knocked down by the latest server zerg was not fun. In addition, I have never seen a travel system in an MMORPG which was as terrible as the one offered in SB. Oftentimes our group(s) would run through the 4-5 PvP "hotzones" looking for some action, and it would take us literally HOURS to run between these 4-5 spots because the map was so gigantic. In addition, the mass outbreak of duping and exploiting led people to get extremely frustrated with the game. When you are farming 10 hours per day for your city's upkeep, and a 1-man nation next to you has maxed out vendors and trainers because he's duped literally over a billion gold, the game gets VERY frustrating.
I would be very interested to see what a large-scale game would be like with a PvP system which was balanced, enjoyable, offered rewards to victors, offered negative effects to losers, and was easy to participate in even if you just had 15 minutes to log on would look like. One of the beauties of UO was that you could log in, recall to brit cem, and find a fight or two inbetween classes or before bed if you only had a short time to play.
Yep,SB isn't the perfect FFA PvP but it's a good game until then. Probably helps I'm only starting to go through the game. (currently 38 human ranger....was PL'd by R7's)
I have high hopes for Darkfall being the game I latch onto though once its out. Or SB2 if that 'ever' emerges....or even a better made WOW 2 that was more PvP-oriented.
well, until WoW arrived, the most succesful MMORPG was Lineage, and Lineage 2, and they are quite pvp intensive and hardcore.
so i dont think that pvp is not popular or that there isnt a market for a FFA pvp game.
if only The Lord of the Rings was FFA...