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PvP: A Dead Horse Beaten To Dust
neschria
Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
A poll, brought to you by the More Polls For More People Organization (MPFMPO, or Mopofomopo, as we like to call ourselves.
(Just a little humor. I figured another poll on what game you like or what game you are looking forward to would be boring and possibly drive some people over the wall.)
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Comments
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
I think a good number enjoy PvP in a mmorpg .However most do not like grief pvp-ie looting.
Might explain why DAoC has done so well (non grief pvp) and grief pvp games like shadowbane are almost dead.
Well, if you subscribe to Bartle's model of player differentiation, (It may be old, but I think it still fits) the least fun target for a true killer is another killer. The most fun is an achiever, followed by socializers.
If PvP is optional or limited, a true socializer will avoid it completely, and a true achiever will only engage in it when the risk/reward ratio is in their favor. That's no fun.
Killers don't really want their own servers, nor would they want restrictions which would allow their favorite prey to avoid them. The greatest enjoyment lies in taking the hammer to those that exhibit the greatest anguish.
That's how come "why can't we just agree to disagree" will always simply create further argument. Real PKers won't be satisfied with separation or limitation, they want to be able to impose their style of play everywhere.
Edit: Just in case - http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
I just had a discussion with my 15 year old son regarding PvP.
Resolved: My definition of PvP is PLAYER versus PLAYER. And that, in my experience, there are no true PvP games that are also MMORPGs. For a MMORPG to truely be PvP, the only thing for a player to do has to be to hunt other players. And that is not a MMORPG, it is a FPS.
Let me quote myself from another thread: In a perfect world, PvP may be stimulating and exciting. But in the real world, people who prefer PvP tend to be the kind of people who like to grief other players. They wait until the other player in engaged or in a dangerous situation, and attack from concealment, ambush with superior numbers or lure more NPCs to the area to overwhelm their victem. Very rarely to they engage in PvP with honor, equal numbers or in any situation where they may lose. Simply put, most people who scream that they want PvP are cowards who are REALLY saying they want the opportunity to take, through gile, theft, cheating or force, what other players worked to get by playing the game.
Now, my son refers to these things as "tactics". My son would be a PKer if he played those kinds of games.
My argument is, these tactics are not PvP. These tactics are one player using the PvE aspect of an MMORPG to grief another player. They are not engaging in Player versus Player combat, they are engaged in griefing and the environment is a convienent tool with which the PKer gains a superior position to cause grief to their victem.
I say this is not PvP. He says it is, simply PvP with tactics. I feel my logic is in the superior position, but he will never agree since the PvP mentality is they are always right and therefor their playstyle must be right and it should be forced upon everyone else for their ammusement.
In other words, this argument will never be won, since the PvP mentality wont allow themselves to be swayed from their position, no matter how inferior their logic is.
Ack! This is turning into a PvP thread!
Mmmm... Irony.... Tastes like chicken.
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Yes dear, but does chicken taste like irony?
(BTW, neschria is the wife that I speak of often
)
Grah! Like I wanted people to know that! (But it is true.... For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health... until you piss me off and I kick you out.)
I don't hate PvP. I can't say that I never killed another player back in the good/bad old days of UO, for instance. I do think I prefer PvE... for now. I am just tired of talking about it. People who want to kill people aren't going to be happy bashing bunnies over the head with a stick, no matter how big the bunny is or what it drops.
And chicken tastes like bunny meat. Everyone knows that.
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
The best part of your whole argument is to mock the stubborness of the opposite side of the debate, with... your own stubborness. The whole argument is doomed to fail Papa because people like you line up on both sides of the fence. But hey I love tomatoes, other people don't, neither one of us is wrong, we just have different tastes.
He is stubborn, like an old Papa Mule... I think it is rather ironic that he was once in a PK guild in UO.
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Touche'
But seriously...There is PvE, PvP and a mix of the 2. To me, using PvE to excel in PvP is not truely PvP. For a game to be truely PvP, there must be absolutely NO PvE aspect of any kind.
And that is a FPS, not a MMORPG.
Just because a game consists of pve and pvp does not mean that it isn't pvp. A pvp game does not need to be sole pvp. I myself enjoy both pvp and pve depending on how I feel at the time. A FPS is just that, a first person shooter. PvP is player vs player and there is no predetermined set of conditions that must exist for it to be that. Anything in which one player is competing against another player(not just combat) can be considered pvp. Even if we use just combat, when I go to fight another player(even if I used pve to excel), I'm still going against another player, pvp. MMORPG is Massively Multi-Online Role Playing Game. Let's take daoc for example. I can Role Play a Highlander Paladin, and then decide I want to go out and vanquish those that would destroy the church. The game is already an MMO regardless of anything else because of all the players on one server. It's a game nonetheless and I'm Role Playing, and I decide to fight with other players at times and that is pvp. Whether anyone likes it or not, trying to argue that that isn't pvp seems rather pointless to me. It is nothing like a FPS, because I don't fight in First Person(myself at least), and I'm not shooting anything. I do play FPS at times too, for a change of pace because they are so different. You comparing this kind of mmorpg pvp is like me saying pve in an mmorpg is just an action game and not actually an mmorpg.
Please, don't generalize that all people who pvp like to pk. PvP adds an entire new dimension to mmorpg's. PvE gets old with a lack of AI, whereas in pvp, the other players do things that you don't expect and can easily change their tatcics. Now I'm not saying everyone should like pvp, just that I and many others do and for several different reasons. Some people do just like to pk, but most people that I know who like pvp, don't like to pk and do it in part because they get tired of the same old computer AI.
In your talk with your son however, I'm going to have to agree with him. He may be a pk'r and I myself don't like pk'rs either, but anything that involves players competing against other players is pvp.
Wow this is horribly ironic...
Ok now to throw myself into the fray.
Sturm, you have a real problem with context don't you. First of all this a thread talking about pvp conversations being boring. So what do you do, you post an argument for pvp to it. Sheesh.
Secondly let us look at the defination of player verus player. Well what could that possibly mean... could it be one player verus another player. This concept is not new, or an mmo thing, hell doctor mario was pvp.
Finally this is a message to everybody out there, WTF!!!!! I don't understand why you feel the need to argue this point. I mean you all state your opinions as if they where the gossiple truth and then line up on your respected sides of the fense. It's like watching five year olds fight over which candy bar is better, snickers or Milky Way. What the hell diffrence does it make they're both candy!!!
Here I think this should solve the pvp verus pve arguement.
To the PVPer:
It's ok to like player verses player. No one thinks you are a bad person or an evil man just because you like to slaughter a few newbs in your time. Sure if you take advantige of game bugs or vunrable players it's wrong, just like cheating at any other game is wrong. But good old fashion pvp is just fine, and actually can be one of the most enjoyable elements to any game. So kill pvper kill! Nobodies going to take that right away from you.
To the PVEer:
Don't try and argue with them. We all know player versus enviroment can be fun. Nobody thinks your week or stupid because you like hunting monsters. You choose to enjoy the world around you, and in so doing get to admire a portion of the game most pvpers will never get to experance. You are the best group mates ever. When people hunt with you they gane a whole new respect the art of a good pull and the protection you give when things sour. You understand that life is not just about achievement, it's about the road you take to get there, and nobodies going to take that away from you.
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Let me first state that every game is Player versus Player.
Every game on the market right now is PVP in a sense. Take Everquest, where the actual player versus player combat is slim, the character PVP is still there. Everquest challenges players to play against the others minds, not their avatars. Becoming leaders of guilds, noted player, or famous for solving some huge GM event, it's the mental aspects of these games that bring people together. The mental challenges that the players overcome are not always level or equipment based (however even I remember the rogue Kithkanin back on Veeshan in North Freeport, showing off his new ragebringer :-D). Becoming known is an entirely new PVP game in itself.
However, I can also say that personally, i'm a PVPer in the most generic sense. I enjoyed Ubi Soft's Shadowbane for a long time (over on the Dread server!) and enjoyed the fully open PVP. I prefer the Avatar combat (more commonly referenced meaning of PVP), as oppose to the political side of the PVP combat (although through destroying others, your name DOES become known quite fast...
).
PVE'ing is an entire new game in itself though! Don't get me wrong, I played Everquest for three years and had a blast the whole time (although these days, challenging other characters to combat is much more fun in my opinion!). It's just like comparing action to strategy; Player vs Player, PVE, they are different games.
As for the topic in this thread, Keep going! Talk about PVP until your blue in the face! It's definitely a hot topic, and I can tell you everyone here at MMORPG.com love reading your opinions and views on these issues, so keep them coming!
Anyway, just a couple thoughts from the drawing board!
-Cohh-
-MMORPG.com Staff-
-Cohh-
www.Carnage-Guild.com
It's a subject that needs a lot of discussion because the treatment of PvP by most MMOGs is pretty lousy.
Unfortunately, some PvP players (and even some PvP haters) don't know how to have a civil debate.
"A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."
"A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."
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The anticipation of death is far worse than death itself...
[img]http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/images/banner.gif[img]
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If you wait to do something until the last minute, your more efficient since it will only take 1 minute.
LOL... you wouldnt know logic if it bit you in the ass and I find it hilarious that you go to another thread to ramble on and insult me because you know damn well you have no way of disputing my arguments...
BUT I actually agree with that your first point here, PVP that doesn't effect your status or position in the game gets boring fast and PVPers don't like it. I know exactly why too.
But having a game where you can fight mobs and fight players and get xp, cash, or items from it is a mix and its pvp and just because you claim otherwise (with no reasoning) doesn't change the fact...
And a MMORPG with absolutely no mobs only player interaction is perfectly feasible and in development atm I might add...
Which brings me to another question for carebears in general... How do you think those trolls or monsters or rats or bunnies feel when you bust in on them unexpectedly in huge groups of like 6 to 1 and bash their heads in huh? Does it make you feel like a man to pick on those poor defenseless low intelligence mobs??! Ill bet you dont even fight them unless you know you can win!!! U SICK BASTARDS HOW COULD U???!?!? U LAMER MOB GRIEFER!!!
Really all your saying is that pvpers want to win. Its up to the game designer to design the game so they can't have an unfair chance of beating someone they fight.... just like game designers try to design mobs that you don't always have a 100% chance of beating. Its just they can't make it so you can fight it a million times and the same can be said, where as with people that can be done.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
MrVice, you should read previous posts prior to trying to comment on mine. Don't try to bash people and then make a post on it yourself and you yourself did the exact same thing that I did. You must think that also have a real problem with context if you think that I do. Secondly, my post is neither an argument for or against pvp, simply what I feel that pvp is. Your statement about doctor Mario being pvp only goes to aid in my explanation of pvp. You should also have read my post before assuming what I was posting about.
Seems like Kriminal99 is very adept at excavating himself into a heap o' mess.
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
*A game does not rule all other games...espcially if it hasn't been released yet.*
*A game does not rule all other games...espcially if it hasn't been released yet.*
Just to clarify, I'm not a PKer. Nor do I like them much. My post was responding to the statement "Why those for or opposed [to PvP] continually try to convince the other to change is beyond me." because I think I do understand why this argument will never end.
Also to clarify, I'm not anti-PvP either. I think that healthy, competitive player combat provides a thrill that can really make a MMORPG fun, and in a way that cannot be achieved in a purely PvE setting.
However, without careful restriction, player combat becomes the means by which a small group of players (i.e. griefers) can and will ruin the experience for the larger population.
In choosing those restrictions, it is important to understand as well as possible the range of personalities and motivations of MMORPG players. And that includes the hard-core PKers, who will always be pushing the envelope when it comes to imposing themselves on other players, and whose primary motivation is to be able to cause distress.
It means that you cannot count on players to police themselves. Limits on PK opportunity and on cost of death need to be chosen with an eye on the reality that the griefers are there, and doing everything they can to get around the restrictions. Which will include loud and continual complaint that any restrictions are there at all.
hi guys! im new, just saying hi and i want to say great thread! Nothing like a good debate! Its almost like whether God the created first human or Evolution did. Both sides will argue to they are blue and no one wins! Awesome!
Will any game ever equal the rampant pking fun of the good ole' dreadlord days of UO 98?
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Will any game ever equal the rampant pking fun of the good ole' dreadlord days of UO 98?