I, myself, have gotten the kind of heart thumping excitement he speaks of, in EQ.
My wife and I took a lower level druid friend to Howling Stones. As we crawled through this dungeon, we were collecting the no rent parts (no rent means it vanishes when you log out) for a permanent key to all the doors of the dungeon. As we went down this one narrow corridor, I told them we would be passing a room full of undead that we didn't need to kill as long as we didn't go near them.
During a fight with a wandering mob in the hall outside the door, the druid got too close to the door and aggroed the mobs inside. Now instead of 1 mob, we had 7. The druid died in about 1.3 seconds. Then we had 2 more wanders come by. It was 9 mobs and the 2 of us.
For the next 15 minutes, I used every trick I had ever learned about being a cleric to keep myelf and my wife (our tank, a Shadow Knight) alive while we dispatched these undead minions, 1 by 1. Sometime during the fight, I even managed to ressuerect the druid. At the end, all of the undead were truely dead and we were all left standing on top of a pile of corpses, low health, low mana, my heart racing like a NASCAR driver, my hands shaking, my wife dropped her head down on her keyboard while she tried to compose herself and it took us 10 minutes to calm down and try to figure out HOW we lived.
So, yes, it's VERY possible to get that kind of rush with out PvP, even in a game I have play for over 4 years.
The key pieces weren't no rent.... but that's picking nits.
But that's exactly why I say that the outcome of every PvE encounter is *not* known. There are a lot of variables in the environment, like, for instance, druids who sit down against doors they are told to avoid.
I am always saying, "I wonder what would happen if..." and then rushing off to find out the answer, even as other people are warning me that it is a bad idea because I might die. (I might take those warnings more seriously if the death penalty involved electric shocks from my chair and keyboard, or 15 minutes of real life paralysis...)
Not that I am looking for trouble. Trouble comes looking for me.
But maybe that's why PvE feels so boring to some people-- they aren't thinking about what kind of trouble they can get themselves into, but rather what they are going to get out of a particular fight.
~*~ neschria Bludgeoner of Bunnies
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
I have just read this ridiculously long thread and would like ot post my thoughts and comments.
To start, TMcC, you are not helping Kriminal, you are hurting his arguments with your griefer style comments. I can tell that you are the type of player that just wants to go all out attacking other players. A majority of players do not like this type of game. And that same majority don't like being attacked like that.
Now, to say my piece about PvP. I have tried most MMORPG's that include PvP in the hopes that they got it right this time. But they haven't yet. The closest they have come is one of two choices:
1) EQ Rallos Zek server. 4 level restriction. This helped immensely. I played on Rallos Zek for over a year.
2) EQ Race War server (forget the name). I played on it for about 4 months before I tired of EQ completely.
I cannot say why these two were the closest to getting it right, but they were the most fun ones I have tried.
Others that I tried in hopes that it would work:
UO - I played from the first day it was released. It was fun for a while, but the ganking got out of hand. People were exploiting the game engine, camping dungeon entrances, etc. PvP was just not implememnted well enough. So I tired quickly and quit.
DAoC - I played this for about 2 months. Getting different classes up to a high enough level to play in PvP. The PvP was not fun at all.
ShadowBane - Just tried this recently. Ganking is so out of hand in that game that it is basically a Quake Server. No offense, but not my kind of game. I did not make it past the free month.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if a game came out that was well balanced and included PvP, I would play it. But it has not happened yet. And it probably never will. Not because game companies won't try, but because there are always those few people who play that are not there to have fun PvP'ing with other players. They are there to grief and exploit. Win at all costs even if it means ruining other people enjoyment. I have had players PK me and then tell me that the only reason they did it was to ruin my fun. Those people ruin PvP games because there has yet to be a PvP implementation that makes it possible to combat this problem.
Dude Im a griefer at times I admit it, but for you to say the majority of people dont like that type of gameplay means nothing to me. And I also dont give two shits how you like to be attacked....so you might say Im the type of guys that make games like UO go bad...no, its whiners like you that change games.
EQ does not disprove the theory because the game has not been out forever, and many people have not thought it was fun forever.
Well, if you do not think that EQ has been out forever, what exactly has in your mind? The only 2 other games that have been around longer is UO and Meridian 59 and EQ is pushing 5 years now which imho is a long time. Point is a lot of people continue to play the game and have done so for many years, you can't really deny that. It just clearly shows that a game does not need mainstream pvp to be successful.
There are plenty of PVP games that people play that were ruined by carebear types, most of whom were just immature and didnt want to adapt to the enviornment (and was encouraged not to by the gms)
Which games are you speaking of exactly? Feel free to name some as proof as this also relates to earlier question regarding how often you see the 'care-bears' complaining about too much pvp, that just doesn't happen.
Simple fact is in almost every case it's a hard core pvper or griefer that is demanding more pvp out of a game. Even though there are games that fit different play styles they feel it is thier job to get every game to employ full pvp. You want pvp, go play Meridian 59 or Shadowbane, the types you want are there if you really that play style.
Dude Im a griefer at times I admit it, but for you to say the majority of people dont like that type of gameplay means nothing to me. And I also dont give two shits how you like to be attacked....so you might say Im the type of guys that make games like UO go bad...no, its whiners like you that change games.
You know what's funny about griefers like this guy, you put them into a game like shadowbane and they can't handle it because everyone is there to pvp. They need to have people that don't really enjoy pvp to prey on otherwise they can't kill anyone.
Because your opinion is obvious, and undeniably wrong, and you refuse to admit it or even attempt to dispute the crystal clear argument I made as to why it is impossible for someone to like pvp. To keep stating it after that is selfish. If you believed your opinion wasn't wrong you would have a reason why and I'd be happy to here it. You don't. That is why it is the same as claiming "ME ME ME" You want your opinion to be respected even when you know its wrong.
Like I said, if you would read. I know it maybe hard, but try. Opinions are just that. They can be neither wrong or right due to the fact that what one person sees as being right, there will always be someone that disagrees with you. There is no right or wrong answer to a opinion. I could care less if you like my opinions or not. Really could care less, but this is a message board where peoples opinions can be talked about. Do you even know what a opinion is? If so please tell me if you can, how a opinion can be wrong.
I told you why some people do not like PvP. What more do you want me to say? I am sure there are other reasons as to why people dont like PvP, but even if I told (assuming I knew them all) why would you believe me? Tho isnt it selfish that you keep saying other peoples opinions are wrong and yours are right? Yet you do the same thing you accuse me of. The ME ME ME attitude of yea my opinions on the subject are right and yours are wrong.
"--If you don't know why you don't like something, then you can't possibly know if you would not like all possible instances of it. That is really obvious... If you are going to claim that you were born with some genetic dislike of all instances of pvp then you are being rediculous. If your not going to use your god given sense then don't argue in threads like this. "
I never said I didnt like anything, so your arguement is of no meaning to me, and I never refuted it. Tho, I gave you a answer to your question as to why some people may not like PvP. It is not my fault reading comprenshion is not one of your better subjects.
Maybe you should take your own advice and not argue in a topic like this since you seem to think everyones opinions are wrong.
---------------------------- Omol da'Ox The Blooded
Dude Im a griefer at times I admit it, but for you to say the majority of people dont like that type of gameplay means nothing to me. And I also dont give two shits how you like to be attacked....so you might say Im the type of guys that make games like UO go bad...no, its whiners like you that change games.
You know what's funny about griefers like this guy, you put them into a game like shadowbane and they can't handle it because everyone is there to pvp. They need to have people that don't really enjoy pvp to prey on otherwise they can't kill anyone.
Aluadan I played Shadowbane and I thought it was pretty cool but it was too buggy for me. I got the game because everybody there was there to pvp dumbass. Dont talk shit about my pvp skills cuz u have no clue if I have skills or not....likewise for your skills, I wont talk on ya because I dont know.
I in now way meant my post as a flame against you. I was just stating the type of player I saw you as. There is nothing wrong with that type of play if the game allows it. But you should not belittle people who do not wish to play that way.
It seems to me that ShadowBane would be a good game for a person of this type of play and having just recently tried it out for a few weeks, I would like to know what was buggy about it? It seemed like a well thoght out game, it just wasn't for me. The PvP aspect was just crazy (in my opinion) after leveling to 22nd or so level and leaving the newbie area. The way the game was designed just didn't seem fair. They put all of the PvE elements of a certain level together in a very close proximity which means that people trying to PvE at 25th level are easily found by gangs of 40th and 50th level characters.
After getting ganked 4 or 5 times by characters 15 to 25 levels higher than me in a 30 minute timespan, I knew the game was not for me. But I do believe other people enjoy that sort of game. And not once did I complain that they should change it so I would like it. I just decided it wasn't for me and quit playing.
Dude Im a griefer at times I admit it, but for you to say the majority of people dont like that type of gameplay means nothing to me. And I also dont give two shits how you like to be attacked....so you might say Im the type of guys that make games like UO go bad...no, its whiners like you that change games.
After thinking about this some more, I must say that you are wrong. I did not go into ShadowBane expecting them to change it. I left after I found it was not the type of game for me.
I have many times over seen the hardcore PVP guys like you demanding that they change games to the way you like them. You feel that if there is something you dislike about the game, then you should be allowed to state your opinion and desire changes. But if a "carebear" player does the same thing, you believe he should not be allowed to?
If you join a game and the PvP is not how you like it, you should go find one that does have it the way you like it. Just like when I played ShadowBane. I didn't like it and I quit. I didn't go trying to ruin other peoples experience by demanding it be the style of game I like.
Originally posted by MrVice See pvp is fine and all, but it's only a small piece of a verry large puzzle. As you have read, all I did when I came to dark age, was gather all my attention onto the battle, thats all I was interested in. By focusing entirely on that I missed a good part of a larger whole. Each lvl wasn't assossaed with an acomplishment, it was just another hurdel for me to stumble over so I could get to the point in the game that I wanted to be. Each time I "Dinged" I didn't see an extra stats or new abbilites, I saw just more exp I had to get through so I could get to the player verse player and once I got there while fun and exciting at first, the sensation was only a tempary one. And it left me with a sort of emptiness one can only get by several hundred hours of their life wasted. Now I know what your rebuttle will be, (or at least I think I do). You'll say: Well MrVice in the game I craft or in the game I perpose, I would remove those hurdels so you could skip those unessary step and move straight to the action if you want to... To which I would respond with: I've played that game, and it's call Shadowbane. It's possibley the worst mmo I've ever played in my life. (Sorry you shadowbane fanes, just my opinion). The game bullsters the kind of logic that you put forth in your arguement. "Players want acheivement, we can't offer them constant questes so give them pvp. Let them create socities and have the abbility to tear them down." That how we create a dynamic enviroment, and the recognizion one seeks from these games." The only problem with this line of thinking is that even though shadowbane restrics player killing to people above 10lvl, it still presents to much choas for any one person to handel. Sure players form guilds, and even town and empires. But what does it all mean if you town is whiped out in a raid when your not looking. After a while players begin to wonder, why bother. And don't just quit making cities, but quit your game entierly. Remember to the victor goes the spoils, and no mater how you sugar coat it there will be loosers, big loosers. People don't want a game which they have to pay 50 dollars for which sets them up to loose. Fun is fun, and deaths are fine, but some people just don't have the skill or motivation for the kind of attention that pvp requires. You said it yourself, people don't start out hating pvp, for most of them it just takes 10 good deaths in a row for them to give up on the process entirely. For others it might just be that they where beaten up as a child, or perhaps that they came from a broken home. I'm not saying that it's disfucntal to hate pvp, I'm just saying weather people know why or not they have their reasons and no mater how much you attempt to persuade them with logic, they still are going to hold on to those reasons. So instead of trying to deny them their belives, why don't you attempt to accomidate for them. Instead of a game based on pvp why don't you say that pvp can signifcantly help the life of an mmorpg by offering higher level character new opertunites, and by so doing increase the longevity of a game. (Oh btw I know you've chosen to ignore it before, but you have admited that you have let your personal experance emprint themselves on to your arguement, by doing so you have violated one of the eight principale falicies in logic and in so doing have disproven your own argument so cut with that logic crap will ya.(oh and I've been through a few logic corses so don't try and say I don't know what the hell I'm taliking about I know a mistake when I see one, fess up and admit your mistake, pussy footing around it and acting high and mighty just makes you loose any intergrety that you had, or is this verry argument a sorce of pleasure for you and thats why you haven't quit.)) With that being said I hope you could understand this, as I said I am exhusted so I appolgize for the many spelling and gramatical errors. And maybe just maybe you'll understand that pvp is good fun, but it's not for everyone. And while it can signifcantly increese the life of an mmorpg, it isn't nessarly a perfect recipe for sucess. Mr. Vice -PS: Personaly when ever I feel the need to slaughter someone mercalously I would rather play UT2k3 or Counter Strike than fumble around the aquward combat controls of an mmorpg. But maybe thats just me.
Let me get this straight. First you go on for 30 minutes about a single game and then try to make a conclusion from that that encompasses all pvp. Then you try and insult me because I mentioned a situation which added to my thinking about and considering MANY different experiences and possibilities both in mmorpgs and dealing with human thought. What are you trying to say that someone that was born in a sensory depot tank and lived there their whole life is the only one who can formulate arguments?
Again someone wants to know why someone can't dislike everything that pvp could possibly be. You *supposedly* know something about psychology so since I already made a clear logical argument why this is impossible, and already explained in plain english why it is impossible allow me to explain in psychological terms. A person thinks they know something because when they state or think an idea, their unconsious mind checks the idea against all previous experiences and if the idea checks out then the unconsious mind communicates with a jolt of "realization" at the mention of this idea. The obvious problem with this is that it generalizes to all possible situations without knowing. Its useful in situations where someone does the same thing many many times like for instance when an experienced chicken farmer can identify a chicks sex despite 0 external indicators. However people can and often do feel that something is right when it may not always be the case due to lack of experience. In this case that means in order for someone to REALLY know they don't like pvp they would have to experience every possible occurence of it.
But does it REALLY even have to be explained why its kinda silly to say "I hate all forms of pvp". That includes playing basketball, cards, etc.
You named two games with two types of pvp and have given it traits not nessecary for it to be pvp. I grew up in a bad household myself. I have a HUGE adrenaline imbalance because of this and am extremely paranoid, and confrontation weighs on me much more than most. What does this have to do with it? This argument presesnts a type of pvp where there is virtually no random punishment i.e. that which would cause someone to jump up and down and bang their keyboard.
You say what if someone totally sux at pvp and always lose... Well that can be controlled via the system can it not? Its called a handicap system.
I will say that I have 2 or 3 possible problems with this argument in my mind by this point, but noone has even come close to them.
PS You have no clue what your talking about regarding logical argument And simply claiming "yeah I took some classes" doesn't give you any credibility. In fact if you can't give a reason why drawing on my experiences to help formulate ideas other than "it contradicts one of the 8 rules!!!" which you are misinterpreting then it wouldn't matter if you were a phd. If you were right you would be able to explain it.
Originally posted by Papa_Sody I had this long post written out where I address your issuses, and for some reason it didn't go in. Let me try to address your idea using your logic. You are trying to say that "to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based." yet your arguments are using FPs as your basis. You are comparing apples to oranges. An FPs is NOT a MMORPG. so, using your logic: For a truck to be usful to me, it must have a cupholder. My car has a cupholder and I find that to be very useful. That is saying, that from my perspective, I want a place to put my coffee, and if a truck lacks a cupholder, it is useless to me. This totally discounts the fact that millions of people use trucks to tow or haul things around and 99.9% of those people couldn't care less if that truck had a cupholder. They could live with out it. They bought their truck for vastly different reasons. What I am saying is that for YOU, you want PvP or the game isn't fun. But considering the number of people who play MMORPGs that have no (or limited) PvP, you are attempting to discount the success of those games by saying that the rest of us are deluding ourselves. We couldn't care less if a game has PvP or not. We can live with out it. We play those games for vastly different reasons than you do.
I'm sorry to here that your original post got eaten. Thats because the forum logs you out after a certain amount of time... It happens to me alot. Just hit back and copy the post to clipboard if it ever happens again.
Ok im assuming FPs is fps and not FP's standing for something i have no clue of. There is no reference to fps'es in the argument. Someone else either here or on another forum made the point that this argument applies to any type of MMORPG even economic sims... And as far as I can see it does.
Your argument about trucks and cupholders has nothing to do with mine. That is an invalid argument. Mine is not... In fact what that looks like to me is a wild interpretation someone biased against my argument might imagine this thread said just by looking at the title. I can't imagine why you are trying to liken that argument to mine when I know you at least copied my argument piece by piece and wrote after each piece (although nothing you said adressed the part you wrote after...)
My argument is not claiming that Everquest is not sucessful or that people playing it are dillusional. First of all let me say one thing. Social interaction provides some degree of fun (for people who enjoy social interaction that is) in all games. If you go to AO and ask any long timers what they like about the game they will tell you that they can hang out with their friends. AO also has alot more emotes and clothes and stuff like that than many other mmorpgs and decent graphics as well. This alone makes people stay at a game long after they get bored with the actual game, because if they don't want to leave their friends then they have to wait for everyone even the newest member to move to the new game. Second just because a game can be fun for a while does not mean it would be fun perpetually. Third, Just because people pay for, or even play a game does not mean they have much fun doing it.
A person plays a game, often gets terribly engrossed in it possibly letting their social life slide, it gets boring and then what? For a long time people often stay trying to suck every last ounce of fun out of the game, because they think (and may be right) there is no better mmo to go to...
You have mentioned that Everquest has many time sinks in it. This alone is enough to discount it from being perpetually fun as a game. The people who run everquest can make a new dungeon with a new event and you can enjoy playing that event 4 years after you started playing. In order to keep this level constant, after you expierenced all accumulated REAL (not simulated by stretching) content I claim that they would need approximately 10x the staff required to design most mmorpgs to start with. If you deny this claim, then we can argue about but I believe you would be one of few...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 PS You have no clue what your talking about regarding logical argument And simply claiming "yeah I took some classes" doesn't give you any credibility. In fact if you can't give a reason why drawing on my experiences to help formulate ideas other than "it contradicts one of the 8 rules!!!" which you are misinterpreting then it wouldn't matter if you were a phd. If you were right you would be able to explain it.
I still would like to know your credentials... as to show your credibility. As I have seen nothing in your arguments, or your initials premises that show you have any understanding of logic either.
And the main reason being, if something cannot be proven wrong, it has no basis in reality, it can only be said as faith. Your faith in "logic" is admirable.
If you cannot defend your logical statements anyother way then trying to discredit those who question you, you have no creditability what so ever. MrVice gave a wonderful argument, and all you did was try to discredit and belittle. I truly hope you feel better about yourself.
I still would like to know your credentials... as to show your credibility. As I have seen nothing in your arguments, or your initials premises that show you have any understanding of logic either.
And the main reason being, if something cannot be proven wrong, it has no basis in reality, it can only be said as faith. Your faith in "logic" is admirable.
If you cannot defend your logical statements anyother way then trying to discredit those who question you, you have no creditability what so ever. MrVice gave a wonderful argument, and all you did was try to discredit and belittle. I truly hope you feel better about yourself.
My credibility is the logic of my ideas, that is the whole point. All that claiming "U R NOT TEH LOGICAL" shows is that you WANT to insult my credibility due to your low level of maturity but cant either because you don't know how or because my arguments are valid. If you see anything wrong specifically in anything I've said, feel free to speak up.
Premises can be whatever I want them to be. The idea is that you are supposed to start with things that noone can deny to make a strong argument, because if you start out with wild ideas as your premises then you dont accomplish much. If someone disagrees then they are supposed to dispute one of the premises. Instead people just come in here and post mostly things that have nothing to do with, do not contradict, and certainly do not adress my argument at all. However there is nothing wrong with anything as a premise, just your argument is only worth the truth of yoru premises. Unless the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, which usually isn't disputed.
Your second statement has no meaning... I don't think anyone would disagree.
Mr Vice did not present a logical argument. I simply pointed out as much. And as to "belittlement".... It amuses me to no end how people will try and beat someone with unthought of ideas down not by disputing the ideas themselves but by congregating in groups and hurling insults over and over again, and then when the recieving person offers even the most remote or tame rebuke or retort its the next subject of scrutiny...
Maybe his argument is "wonderful" to you because he shares your immature desire to beat me down for "Trying to act like hes smarter than everyone else" to quote a common description given for why people fly off the handle when someone tries to share ideas. ( Not that I don't have a much deeper understanding of it than that) However his argument made no sense.
@ Neschria, I know that PVE encounters can provide a rush. But how many times can you deal with the same PVE encounter and still get that rush?
Originally posted by TaskyZZ I have just read this ridiculously long thread and would like ot post my thoughts and comments. To start, TMcC, you are not helping Kriminal, you are hurting his arguments with your griefer style comments. I can tell that you are the type of player that just wants to go all out attacking other players. A majority of players do not like this type of game. And that same majority don't like being attacked like that. Now, to say my piece about PvP. I have tried most MMORPG's that include PvP in the hopes that they got it right this time. But they haven't yet. The closest they have come is one of two choices: 1) EQ Rallos Zek server. 4 level restriction. This helped immensely. I played on Rallos Zek for over a year. 2) EQ Race War server (forget the name). I played on it for about 4 months before I tired of EQ completely. I cannot say why these two were the closest to getting it right, but they were the most fun ones I have tried. Others that I tried in hopes that it would work: UO - I played from the first day it was released. It was fun for a while, but the ganking got out of hand. People were exploiting the game engine, camping dungeon entrances, etc. PvP was just not implememnted well enough. So I tired quickly and quit. DAoC - I played this for about 2 months. Getting different classes up to a high enough level to play in PvP. The PvP was not fun at all. ShadowBane - Just tried this recently. Ganking is so out of hand in that game that it is basically a Quake Server. No offense, but not my kind of game. I did not make it past the free month. I guess what I am trying to say is that if a game came out that was well balanced and included PvP, I would play it. But it has not happened yet. And it probably never will. Not because game companies won't try, but because there are always those few people who play that are not there to have fun PvP'ing with other players. They are there to grief and exploit. Win at all costs even if it means ruining other people enjoyment. I have had players PK me and then tell me that the only reason they did it was to ruin my fun. Those people ruin PvP games because there has yet to be a PvP implementation that makes it possible to combat this problem.
Tmcc can not "hurt my arguments" by making comments about pvpers. Just because it might cause people to think this is a griefers thread and be mad at it does not hurt the logic of my arguments. This is fundamental to the problem with peoples posts against this thread. Logic can be used to describe emotions. Emotions CAN NOT be used to describe logic. That is the extent of the incompatability between logic and emotions.
Sorry for the tangent. First you say that: some pvp is bad. I don't think I even have to adress why that doesn't dispute my argument since ive already done it a million times. Lastly you say that there are always people out there who can ruin things for other people. Well then to this let me say, why is there not rampant crime and theft of property in the real world? Because it has been controlled by the system of the world. Now to that one might say that all someone has to lose in a MMORPG is their accomplishments and the amount of money spent for that month. Well to that I would say that there as long as people playing the game have things they do want to happen, and things they dont want to happen, their behavior can be somewhat controlled by the structure and design of the game.
Originally posted by Aluadan
Well, if you do not think that EQ has been out forever, what exactly has in your mind? The only 2 other games that have been around longer is UO and Meridian 59 and EQ is pushing 5 years now which imho is a long time. Point is a lot of people continue to play the game and have done so for many years, you can't really deny that. It just clearly shows that a game does not need mainstream pvp to be successful.
Which games are you speaking of exactly? Feel free to name some as proof as this also relates to earlier question regarding how often you see the 'care-bears' complaining about too much pvp, that just doesn't happen.
Simple fact is in almost every case it's a hard core pvper or griefer that is demanding more pvp out of a game. Even though there are games that fit different play styles they feel it is thier job to get every game to employ full pvp. You want pvp, go play Meridian 59 or Shadowbane, the types you want are there if you really that play style.
You are correct, my argument does not to say that a MMORPG needs PVP to be SUCCESSFUL. Why does it matter if the MMORPG is fun if its Succesful anyways? The principle of competition dictates that when a game is released that is perpetually fun, and painless pvp, that at that point an MMORPG will need it to be succesful. Or at least to be succesful longterm, which of course is what the developers want.
Any one of many PVP heavy games which you probably don't play. (Neocron, Endless ages, UO, M&M, Shadowbane, DAOC) Go look at any game where random pvp is enabled and there will be posts by people complaining about being randomly pked. Of course its usually more prominent in games where there is no seperate server for the less pvp inclined, but not always . Most stories are made up, the enemies level greatly exxagerated, lies about gm interaction, hacks etc. barely readable most of the time. Nevertheless they are obviously under stress. None of this has anything to do with the argument btw.
Griefers and Carebears both greatly exxagerate the bad traits of each other and the intelligent versions of each both have some legitimate arguments to their cause. However my goal is to take away anyones will to argue about anything regarding something that is supposed to be fun. Carebears and greifers alike.
Originally posted by Omol
Like I said, if you would read. I know it maybe hard, but try. Opinions are just that. They can be neither wrong or right due to the fact that what one person sees as being right, there will always be someone that disagrees with you. There is no right or wrong answer to a opinion. I could care less if you like my opinions or not. Really could care less, but this is a message board where peoples opinions can be talked about. Do you even know what a opinion is? If so please tell me if you can, how a opinion can be wrong.
I told you why some people do not like PvP. What more do you want me to say? I am sure there are other reasons as to why people dont like PvP, but even if I told (assuming I knew them all) why would you believe me? Tho isnt it selfish that you keep saying other peoples opinions are wrong and yours are right? Yet you do the same thing you accuse me of. The ME ME ME attitude of yea my opinions on the subject are right and yours are wrong.
"--If you don't know why you don't like something, then you can't possibly know if you would not like all possible instances of it. That is really obvious... If you are going to claim that you were born with some genetic dislike of all instances of pvp then you are being rediculous. If your not going to use your god given sense then don't argue in threads like this. "
I never said I didnt like anything, so your arguement is of no meaning to me, and I never refuted it. Tho, I gave you a answer to your question as to why some people may not like PvP. It is not my fault reading comprenshion is not one of your better subjects.
Maybe you should take your own advice and not argue in a topic like this since you seem to think everyones opinions are wrong.
Wrong Opinion: 2+2 = 5, the world is flat etc etc
Things people say are either right or wrong, regardless of weather people call them opinion or not.
People say that they dont like PVP. As a reason they state one or two instances of pvp. Then they generalize to all instances of pvp. Thats wrong. I could go into a big long explanation but since noone reads them anyways it should be easiest to think of it like this. For each person their definition of "pvp" changes every time they experience a new form of it. While they may actually think they are saying something meaningful by "I don't like PVP" 5 feet down the road they could experience pvp that they do like and have been wrong.
Heres an even simpler argument why that statement is rediculous. A person doesn't even read my argument, comes in here, stomps his little feet and states " I don't like pvp, being greifed all the time is lame!!!" To that I say pvp doesn not = being greifed all the time. Then he says " I dont like ANY type of pvp"... Now BESIDES the fact that is impossible he is obviously lying... He just said that he doesn't like pvp because people grief him all the time... and his use of the carebear propaganda term "grief" makes it perfectly clear that this is the source of his dislike. Now he is simply trying to claim something which he THINKS can't be disputed because he doesn't like to be corrected. And you expect me to take this kind of attitude seriously... then the next person comes in reads this and starts off with "I hate pvp" even though we all know he has some reason just like the first. But nevertheless it is still a rediculous claim in of itself.
I wasn't talking to YOU as in you in that paragraph. That paragraph IS a restatement of the argument why its silly for someone to say they don't like pvp.
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Premise 10: repetitve actions have a finite length in which they remain fun to do.
PvP is not immune to this rule. Without new content to keep PvP interesting it becomes repetitive and hence has a finite life span. Both PvE and PvP require content to remain fun. A sustained level of fun requires better ways to introduce new content, with sufficient content both types of game can sustain high levels of fun.
I would like to see a logical reason why better tools and AI can not make a PvE world as fun as a PvP world.
I would really like to know your thoughts on if advanced AI could provided you with the same sence of self worth as well. It is logical that the same level of challenge would provide the same level of self worth.
Let's stop all talks of logical and present one basic fact. A basic fact that EVERYONE can agree on.
Resolved: Fun is in the view of the player.
Now, let's take the opening statement of this entire TEN pagee thread: Logical argument why to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based.
Let's restate this statement in a manner which makes more sense give our resolution above...
Logical argument why to be continually fun, in the view of one person, Kriminal99, a MMORPG must be PVP based.
Nothing else said or presented in this thread has any bearing on the simple fact that for Kriminal99 to have fun, a MMORPG must be based on PvP and nothing else will do FOR HIM.
And on that note, I will accept his logic, no matter how flawed or perfect it may be. Because I know that the type of person he is means he needs PvP or he is incapable of having "fun". And no amount of counter-logic will ever sway him from that view.
Congrats, Kriminal99. I yield to your logic. May you find that PvP based MMORPG you desire...someday. And may you have all the fun you can stand.
Originally posted by heartless Is it still logic if I don't find your argument and all 50 of your premises logical?
"don't find your premises logical..? I suppose that one or two things in my premises could be broken down into smaller deductive arguments. I doubt any of them are invalid. Most of them are just inductive arguments. If your trying to say you don't agree with my premises then feel free to make an argument why. The only way that my argument could be "not logical" is if the premises do not nessecitate the conclusion.
Originally posted by horrid Premise 10: repetitve actions have a finite length in which they remain fun to do.
PvP is not immune to this rule. Without new content to keep PvP interesting it becomes repetitive and hence has a finite life span. Both PvE and PvP require content to remain fun. A sustained level of fun requires better ways to introduce new content, with sufficient content both types of game can sustain high levels of fun. I would like to see a logical reason why better tools and AI can not make a PvE world as fun as a PvP world. I would really like to know your thoughts on if advanced AI could provided you with the same sence of self worth as well. It is logical that the same level of challenge would provide the same level of self worth.
I dont have a premise 10. And I dispute that premise (that no argument is based on oO). If you repetively inject dopamine into yourself for as long as you live it will always be fun. Do compulsive gamblers ever get bored of it?
Anyways my answer to your question about why not PVE is in my argument, and that is that players consume content at 10x the speed it is created by the average devlopment team. Extending content by using tricks like making the level go from 1 to 500 when nothing really changes doesnt fool people, They get bored just as fast as if you hadn't done that. (although I suppose this tactic could be used to a limited degree and only make the game as less fun as it is used. But the goal is to make the game as fun as possible)
You did not read the argument at all.
Advanced AI - I supposed "challenge" can be taken the same as "unpredictability" which is the only thing my argument needed... Keep in mind that this AI is not to replace just 1 person, but an infinite amount of random people. You want a computer program that a player will never be able to know for sure weather or not he can consistantly beat it because its skill level is too random, no matter how many times they fight it. To answer your question, yes I think it is possible, but not any time soon.
But hmm... You send me down an interesting path of reason. If you knew there was a reward in a particular cave and wanted it, and every time you went in there a Random strength mob spawned, Or the same mob that just did a variable amount of damage or something random like this. Now I know my argument is still right but because of this I will have to change a premise. Here the outcome with the mob is unpredictable, and could even be considered a gamble. But gaining more skill and understanding of the game will not help someone accomplish this goal more, so there is not really anything to make someone feel good about winning this bet... its just luck. I will change my premise to exclude this possibility.
Originally posted by Papa_Sody Ok, I have an idea. Let's stop all talks of logical and present one basic fact. A basic fact that EVERYONE can agree on. Resolved: Fun is in the view of the player. Now, let's take the opening statement of this entire TEN pagee thread: Logical argument why to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based. Let's restate this statement in a manner which makes more sense give our resolution above... Logical argument why to be continually fun, in the view of one person, Kriminal99, a MMORPG must be PVP based.
Nothing else said or presented in this thread has any bearing on the simple fact that for Kriminal99 to have fun, a MMORPG must be based on PvP and nothing else will do FOR HIM.
And on that note, I will accept his logic, no matter how flawed or perfect it may be. Because I know that the type of person he is means he needs PvP or he is incapable of having "fun". And no amount of counter-logic will ever sway him from that view.
Congrats, Kriminal99. I yield to your logic. May you find that PvP based MMORPG you desire...someday. And may you have all the fun you can stand.
Thats not a basic fact, its not even a fact, and throughout this thread noone has agreed on it...
I have already addressed that hollow rainbowland argument multiple times (hollow as in it has no meaning and you certainly cannot back it up)
The average person has no clue what causes fun. They certainly do not dictate to themselves what things are fun and what things are not fun. The extent of the average person's comprehension of fun is that "it feels good".
Opinions are either right or wrong. Just because something is not commonly understood does not mean that opinions about that subject cannot suddenly be right or wrong. At one point people probably had all kinds of "opinions" about what the stars were, about weather the world was flat or round, etc etc. One day people who do not know exactly what causes fun or does not will be considered uneduacted.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ I did not respond to any of the original premises because they were all based on your opinion and hogwash. Just because you play a game because you want to rule the world does not mean that others do. Your entire argument was just plain silly.
If you dispute one of the premises, then give a reason why. All you do with a statement like this is demonstrate your immaturity.
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I don't believe that PvP is a valid way to prolong the gaming experience. PvP in MMORPGs is nothing more than gloryfied PvE. In most cases it is pointless and boring.
Content is what keeps games alive and fun. Without content even the best PvP game will become boring.
In other words, PvP is not the savior of any game and especially not an MMORPG. The most important aspects of an RPG are content and an immersive storyline.
I've been a PvPer for a long time and I still enjoy a good PvP match from time to time. Although I usualy play games that require actual player skill rather than player's ability to kill mindless mobs and then kill mindless newbs when their toon is l33t enough.
To me a true MMORPG is a game of exploration and interaction. I don't consider pointless killing of other players as interaction in an MMORPG.
Originally posted by heartless I don't believe that PvP is a valid way to prolong the gaming experience. PvP in MMORPGs is nothing more than gloryfied PvE. In most cases it is pointless and boring. Content is what keeps games alive and fun. Without content even the best PvP game will become boring. In other words, PvP is not the savior of any game and especially not an MMORPG. The most important aspects of an RPG are content and an immersive storyline. I've been a PvPer for a long time and I still enjoy a good PvP match from time to time. Although I usualy play games that require actual player skill rather than player's ability to kill mindless mobs and then kill mindless newbs when their toon is l33t enough. To me a true MMORPG is a game of exploration and interaction. I don't consider pointless killing of other players as interaction in an MMORPG.
*yawn* all pvp is not pointless or boring. You wouldnt even know because you havent experienced all forms of pvp. In fact I don't even think you have experienced anything close to a good pvp game.
Content is used 10x faster than it is created. A game can not be perpetually fun just based on that.
Your statements do not dispute my premises. If you want to spout mindless nonsense with no backup go start your own thread.
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How would you know what I have and have not experienced? Making asumptions and trying to discredit someone is not a good way to have a discussion.
I don't know where you got that 10x number for content usage, care to post a link or show some sort of proof? Either way, that is why most MMORPGs have developers constantly working on new content.
By the way, making wild claims is also not a good way of having a discussion.
Finally, my statement wasn't posted to dispute your premises because to me they are mindless nonsense.
Originally posted by heartless How would you know what I have and have not experienced? Making asumptions and trying to discredit someone is not a good way to have a discussion. I don't know where you got that 10x number for content usage, care to post a link or show some sort of proof? Either way, that is why most MMORPGs have developers constantly working on new content. By the way, making wild claims is also not a good way of having a discussion. Finally, my statement wasn't posted to dispute your premises because to me they are mindless nonsense.
I know that you have not experienced all forms of pvp because that is impossible... I said I think that you probably haven't even played any good types because fair gamble pvp, like any fair gamble in life be it hitting on a girl, betting a ton of money, playing in a sport at a crucial moment etc is a great rush... Noone denies this.
if you dont believe that then my argument is not sound to you. (That is one of my premises btw since you obviously did not read the argument pefore you hit the post button... very intelligent ) Hardly anyone else disputes that tho. If a game takes 3 years to create then most people will get bored of it in 3 months. They might still play it..., but they will be on the forums begging for more content. Funcom said they expected it to take 4 years for someone to reach lvl 200 in AO and someone made it there in a month. (Don't know how long that game took to make but it was more than 10 months ) Neocron: same, Endless Ages, etc etc I don't really know where I could link to proof of this if you don't already have the common knowledge. If this is the rate at which players consume content, then in order to sustain the players with content they would need 10x the staff that most devs use to make their games to begin with.
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Arg!!! Damn thing ate my post again!!! Oh great and I just spent three hours concocting a logic proof which showed that there is no way that we can prove that anybody on this forum is an athority on logic, so thusly Kriminal can not be an athority on logic, since anything hey says he knows about logic has to be based on faith. Thusly we can only speak of opinions on this channel, not in term of logic.
For no mater how logicly you look at it, I think kriminal doesn't know what he's talking about, and I'm sure he feels the same way about me. I disprove his arguement, all he has to say is no you didn't and vice versa. So there is really no point in continuing this discussion in the area of logic, that is unless kriminal you want this to turn into a game of cowboys and indians.
Comments
I just read Mr. Vice's post. /applaud. Very nice.
I, myself, have gotten the kind of heart thumping excitement he speaks of, in EQ.
My wife and I took a lower level druid friend to Howling Stones. As we crawled through this dungeon, we were collecting the no rent parts (no rent means it vanishes when you log out) for a permanent key to all the doors of the dungeon. As we went down this one narrow corridor, I told them we would be passing a room full of undead that we didn't need to kill as long as we didn't go near them.
During a fight with a wandering mob in the hall outside the door, the druid got too close to the door and aggroed the mobs inside. Now instead of 1 mob, we had 7. The druid died in about 1.3 seconds. Then we had 2 more wanders come by. It was 9 mobs and the 2 of us.
For the next 15 minutes, I used every trick I had ever learned about being a cleric to keep myelf and my wife (our tank, a Shadow Knight) alive while we dispatched these undead minions, 1 by 1. Sometime during the fight, I even managed to ressuerect the druid. At the end, all of the undead were truely dead and we were all left standing on top of a pile of corpses, low health, low mana, my heart racing like a NASCAR driver, my hands shaking, my wife dropped her head down on her keyboard while she tried to compose herself and it took us 10 minutes to calm down and try to figure out HOW we lived.
So, yes, it's VERY possible to get that kind of rush with out PvP, even in a game I have play for over 4 years.
The key pieces weren't no rent.... but that's picking nits.
But that's exactly why I say that the outcome of every PvE encounter is *not* known. There are a lot of variables in the environment, like, for instance, druids who sit down against doors they are told to avoid.
I am always saying, "I wonder what would happen if..." and then rushing off to find out the answer, even as other people are warning me that it is a bad idea because I might die. (I might take those warnings more seriously if the death penalty involved electric shocks from my chair and keyboard, or 15 minutes of real life paralysis...)
Not that I am looking for trouble. Trouble comes looking for me.
But maybe that's why PvE feels so boring to some people-- they aren't thinking about what kind of trouble they can get themselves into, but rather what they are going to get out of a particular fight.
~*~
neschria
Bludgeoner of Bunnies
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
I have just read this ridiculously long thread and would like ot post my thoughts and comments.
To start, TMcC, you are not helping Kriminal, you are hurting his arguments with your griefer style comments. I can tell that you are the type of player that just wants to go all out attacking other players. A majority of players do not like this type of game. And that same majority don't like being attacked like that.
Now, to say my piece about PvP. I have tried most MMORPG's that include PvP in the hopes that they got it right this time. But they haven't yet. The closest they have come is one of two choices:
1) EQ Rallos Zek server. 4 level restriction. This helped immensely. I played on Rallos Zek for over a year.
2) EQ Race War server (forget the name). I played on it for about 4 months before I tired of EQ completely.
I cannot say why these two were the closest to getting it right, but they were the most fun ones I have tried.
Others that I tried in hopes that it would work:
UO - I played from the first day it was released. It was fun for a while, but the ganking got out of hand. People were exploiting the game engine, camping dungeon entrances, etc. PvP was just not implememnted well enough. So I tired quickly and quit.
DAoC - I played this for about 2 months. Getting different classes up to a high enough level to play in PvP. The PvP was not fun at all.
ShadowBane - Just tried this recently. Ganking is so out of hand in that game that it is basically a Quake Server. No offense, but not my kind of game. I did not make it past the free month.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if a game came out that was well balanced and included PvP, I would play it. But it has not happened yet. And it probably never will. Not because game companies won't try, but because there are always those few people who play that are not there to have fun PvP'ing with other players. They are there to grief and exploit. Win at all costs even if it means ruining other people enjoyment. I have had players PK me and then tell me that the only reason they did it was to ruin my fun. Those people ruin PvP games because there has yet to be a PvP implementation that makes it possible to combat this problem.
Simple fact is in almost every case it's a hard core pvper or griefer that is demanding more pvp out of a game. Even though there are games that fit different play styles they feel it is thier job to get every game to employ full pvp. You want pvp, go play Meridian 59 or Shadowbane, the types you want are there if you really that play style.
Like I said, if you would read. I know it maybe hard, but try. Opinions are just that. They can be neither wrong or right due to the fact that what one person sees as being right, there will always be someone that disagrees with you. There is no right or wrong answer to a opinion. I could care less if you like my opinions or not. Really could care less, but this is a message board where peoples opinions can be talked about. Do you even know what a opinion is? If so please tell me if you can, how a opinion can be wrong.
I told you why some people do not like PvP. What more do you want me to say? I am sure there are other reasons as to why people dont like PvP, but even if I told (assuming I knew them all) why would you believe me? Tho isnt it selfish that you keep saying other peoples opinions are wrong and yours are right? Yet you do the same thing you accuse me of. The ME ME ME attitude of yea my opinions on the subject are right and yours are wrong.
"--If you don't know why you don't like something, then you can't possibly know if you would not like all possible instances of it. That is really obvious... If you are going to claim that you were born with some genetic dislike of all instances of pvp then you are being rediculous. If your not going to use your god given sense then don't argue in threads like this. "
I never said I didnt like anything, so your arguement is of no meaning to me, and I never refuted it. Tho, I gave you a answer to your question as to why some people may not like PvP. It is not my fault reading comprenshion is not one of your better subjects.
Maybe you should take your own advice and not argue in a topic like this since you seem to think everyones opinions are wrong.
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Omol da'Ox
The Blooded
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Omol da'Ox
Aluadan I played Shadowbane and I thought it was pretty cool but it was too buggy for me. I got the game because everybody there was there to pvp dumbass. Dont talk shit about my pvp skills cuz u have no clue if I have skills or not....likewise for your skills, I wont talk on ya because I dont know.
TMcC,
I in now way meant my post as a flame against you. I was just stating the type of player I saw you as. There is nothing wrong with that type of play if the game allows it. But you should not belittle people who do not wish to play that way.
It seems to me that ShadowBane would be a good game for a person of this type of play and having just recently tried it out for a few weeks, I would like to know what was buggy about it? It seemed like a well thoght out game, it just wasn't for me. The PvP aspect was just crazy (in my opinion) after leveling to 22nd or so level and leaving the newbie area. The way the game was designed just didn't seem fair. They put all of the PvE elements of a certain level together in a very close proximity which means that people trying to PvE at 25th level are easily found by gangs of 40th and 50th level characters.
After getting ganked 4 or 5 times by characters 15 to 25 levels higher than me in a 30 minute timespan, I knew the game was not for me. But I do believe other people enjoy that sort of game. And not once did I complain that they should change it so I would like it. I just decided it wasn't for me and quit playing.
TMcC wrote
After thinking about this some more, I must say that you are wrong. I did not go into ShadowBane expecting them to change it. I left after I found it was not the type of game for me.
I have many times over seen the hardcore PVP guys like you demanding that they change games to the way you like them. You feel that if there is something you dislike about the game, then you should be allowed to state your opinion and desire changes. But if a "carebear" player does the same thing, you believe he should not be allowed to?
If you join a game and the PvP is not how you like it, you should go find one that does have it the way you like it. Just like when I played ShadowBane. I didn't like it and I quit. I didn't go trying to ruin other peoples experience by demanding it be the style of game I like.
Let me get this straight. First you go on for 30 minutes about a single game and then try to make a conclusion from that that encompasses all pvp. Then you try and insult me because I mentioned a situation which added to my thinking about and considering MANY different experiences and possibilities both in mmorpgs and dealing with human thought. What are you trying to say that someone that was born in a sensory depot tank and lived there their whole life is the only one who can formulate arguments?
Again someone wants to know why someone can't dislike everything that pvp could possibly be. You *supposedly* know something about psychology so since I already made a clear logical argument why this is impossible, and already explained in plain english why it is impossible allow me to explain in psychological terms. A person thinks they know something because when they state or think an idea, their unconsious mind checks the idea against all previous experiences and if the idea checks out then the unconsious mind communicates with a jolt of "realization" at the mention of this idea. The obvious problem with this is that it generalizes to all possible situations without knowing. Its useful in situations where someone does the same thing many many times like for instance when an experienced chicken farmer can identify a chicks sex despite 0 external indicators. However people can and often do feel that something is right when it may not always be the case due to lack of experience. In this case that means in order for someone to REALLY know they don't like pvp they would have to experience every possible occurence of it.
But does it REALLY even have to be explained why its kinda silly to say "I hate all forms of pvp". That includes playing basketball, cards, etc.
You named two games with two types of pvp and have given it traits not nessecary for it to be pvp. I grew up in a bad household myself. I have a HUGE adrenaline imbalance because of this and am extremely paranoid, and confrontation weighs on me much more than most. What does this have to do with it? This argument presesnts a type of pvp where there is virtually no random punishment i.e. that which would cause someone to jump up and down and bang their keyboard.
You say what if someone totally sux at pvp and always lose... Well that can be controlled via the system can it not? Its called a handicap system.
I will say that I have 2 or 3 possible problems with this argument in my mind by this point, but noone has even come close to them.
PS You have no clue what your talking about regarding logical argument
And simply claiming "yeah I took some classes" doesn't give you any credibility. In fact if you can't give a reason why drawing on my experiences to help formulate ideas other than "it contradicts one of the 8 rules!!!" which you are misinterpreting then it wouldn't matter if you were a phd. If you were right you would be able to explain it.
I'm sorry to here that your original post got eaten. Thats because the forum logs you out after a certain amount of time... It happens to me alot. Just hit back and copy the post to clipboard if it ever happens again.
Ok im assuming FPs is fps and not FP's standing for something i have no clue of. There is no reference to fps'es in the argument. Someone else either here or on another forum made the point that this argument applies to any type of MMORPG even economic sims... And as far as I can see it does.
Your argument about trucks and cupholders has nothing to do with mine. That is an invalid argument. Mine is not... In fact what that looks like to me is a wild interpretation someone biased against my argument might imagine this thread said just by looking at the title. I can't imagine why you are trying to liken that argument to mine when I know you at least copied my argument piece by piece and wrote after each piece (although nothing you said adressed the part you wrote after...)
My argument is not claiming that Everquest is not sucessful or that people playing it are dillusional. First of all let me say one thing. Social interaction provides some degree of fun (for people who enjoy social interaction that is) in all games. If you go to AO and ask any long timers what they like about the game they will tell you that they can hang out with their friends. AO also has alot more emotes and clothes and stuff like that than many other mmorpgs and decent graphics as well. This alone makes people stay at a game long after they get bored with the actual game, because if they don't want to leave their friends then they have to wait for everyone even the newest member to move to the new game. Second just because a game can be fun for a while does not mean it would be fun perpetually. Third, Just because people pay for, or even play a game does not mean they have much fun doing it.
A person plays a game, often gets terribly engrossed in it possibly letting their social life slide, it gets boring and then what? For a long time people often stay trying to suck every last ounce of fun out of the game, because they think (and may be right) there is no better mmo to go to...
You have mentioned that Everquest has many time sinks in it. This alone is enough to discount it from being perpetually fun as a game. The people who run everquest can make a new dungeon with a new event and you can enjoy playing that event 4 years after you started playing. In order to keep this level constant, after you expierenced all accumulated REAL (not simulated by stretching) content I claim that they would need approximately 10x the staff required to design most mmorpgs to start with. If you deny this claim, then we can argue about but I believe you would be one of few...
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I still would like to know your credentials... as to show your credibility. As I have seen nothing in your arguments, or your initials premises that show you have any understanding of logic either.
And the main reason being, if something cannot be proven wrong, it has no basis in reality, it can only be said as faith. Your faith in "logic" is admirable.
If you cannot defend your logical statements anyother way then trying to discredit those who question you, you have no creditability what so ever. MrVice gave a wonderful argument, and all you did was try to discredit and belittle. I truly hope you feel better about yourself.
I still would like to know your credentials... as to show your credibility. As I have seen nothing in your arguments, or your initials premises that show you have any understanding of logic either.
And the main reason being, if something cannot be proven wrong, it has no basis in reality, it can only be said as faith. Your faith in "logic" is admirable.
If you cannot defend your logical statements anyother way then trying to discredit those who question you, you have no creditability what so ever. MrVice gave a wonderful argument, and all you did was try to discredit and belittle. I truly hope you feel better about yourself.
My credibility is the logic of my ideas, that is the whole point. All that claiming "U R NOT TEH LOGICAL" shows is that you WANT to insult my credibility due to your low level of maturity but cant either because you don't know how or because my arguments are valid. If you see anything wrong specifically in anything I've said, feel free to speak up.
Premises can be whatever I want them to be. The idea is that you are supposed to start with things that noone can deny to make a strong argument, because if you start out with wild ideas as your premises then you dont accomplish much. If someone disagrees then they are supposed to dispute one of the premises. Instead people just come in here and post mostly things that have nothing to do with, do not contradict, and certainly do not adress my argument at all. However there is nothing wrong with anything as a premise, just your argument is only worth the truth of yoru premises. Unless the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, which usually isn't disputed.
Your second statement has no meaning... I don't think anyone would disagree.
Mr Vice did not present a logical argument. I simply pointed out as much. And as to "belittlement".... It amuses me to no end how people will try and beat someone with unthought of ideas down not by disputing the ideas themselves but by congregating in groups and hurling insults over and over again, and then when the recieving person offers even the most remote or tame rebuke or retort its the next subject of scrutiny...
Maybe his argument is "wonderful" to you because he shares your immature desire to beat me down for "Trying to act like hes smarter than everyone else" to quote a common description given for why people fly off the handle when someone tries to share ideas. ( Not that I don't have a much deeper understanding of it than that) However his argument made no sense.
@ Neschria, I know that PVE encounters can provide a rush. But how many times can you deal with the same PVE encounter and still get that rush?
Tmcc can not "hurt my arguments" by making comments about pvpers. Just because it might cause people to think this is a griefers thread and be mad at it does not hurt the logic of my arguments. This is fundamental to the problem with peoples posts against this thread. Logic can be used to describe emotions. Emotions CAN NOT be used to describe logic. That is the extent of the incompatability between logic and emotions.
Sorry for the tangent. First you say that: some pvp is bad. I don't think I even have to adress why that doesn't dispute my argument since ive already done it a million times. Lastly you say that there are always people out there who can ruin things for other people. Well then to this let me say, why is there not rampant crime and theft of property in the real world? Because it has been controlled by the system of the world. Now to that one might say that all someone has to lose in a MMORPG is their accomplishments and the amount of money spent for that month. Well to that I would say that there as long as people playing the game have things they do want to happen, and things they dont want to happen, their behavior can be somewhat controlled by the structure and design of the game.
You are correct, my argument does not to say that a MMORPG needs PVP to be SUCCESSFUL. Why does it matter if the MMORPG is fun if its Succesful anyways? The principle of competition dictates that when a game is released that is perpetually fun, and painless pvp, that at that point an MMORPG will need it to be succesful. Or at least to be succesful longterm, which of course is what the developers want.
Any one of many PVP heavy games which you probably don't play. (Neocron, Endless ages, UO, M&M, Shadowbane, DAOC) Go look at any game where random pvp is enabled and there will be posts by people complaining about being randomly pked. Of course its usually more prominent in games where there is no seperate server for the less pvp inclined, but not always
. Most stories are made up, the enemies level greatly exxagerated, lies about gm interaction, hacks etc. barely readable most of the time. Nevertheless they are obviously under stress. None of this has anything to do with the argument btw.
Griefers and Carebears both greatly exxagerate the bad traits of each other and the intelligent versions of each both have some legitimate arguments to their cause. However my goal is to take away anyones will to argue about anything regarding something that is supposed to be fun. Carebears and greifers alike.
Wrong Opinion: 2+2 = 5, the world is flat etc etc
Things people say are either right or wrong, regardless of weather people call them opinion or not.
People say that they dont like PVP. As a reason they state one or two instances of pvp. Then they generalize to all instances of pvp. Thats wrong. I could go into a big long explanation but since noone reads them anyways it should be easiest to think of it like this. For each person their definition of "pvp" changes every time they experience a new form of it. While they may actually think they are saying something meaningful by "I don't like PVP" 5 feet down the road they could experience pvp that they do like and have been wrong.
Heres an even simpler argument why that statement is rediculous. A person doesn't even read my argument, comes in here, stomps his little feet and states " I don't like pvp, being greifed all the time is lame!!!" To that I say pvp doesn not = being greifed all the time. Then he says " I dont like ANY type of pvp"... Now BESIDES the fact that is impossible he is obviously lying... He just said that he doesn't like pvp because people grief him all the time... and his use of the carebear propaganda term "grief" makes it perfectly clear that this is the source of his dislike. Now he is simply trying to claim something which he THINKS can't be disputed because he doesn't like to be corrected. And you expect me to take this kind of attitude seriously... then the next person comes in reads this and starts off with "I hate pvp" even though we all know he has some reason just like the first. But nevertheless it is still a rediculous claim in of itself.
I wasn't talking to YOU as in you in that paragraph. That paragraph IS a restatement of the argument why its silly for someone to say they don't like pvp.
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Premise 10: repetitve actions have a finite length in which they remain fun to do.
PvP is not immune to this rule. Without new content to keep PvP interesting it becomes repetitive and hence has a finite life span. Both PvE and PvP require content to remain fun. A sustained level of fun requires better ways to introduce new content, with sufficient content both types of game can sustain high levels of fun.
I would like to see a logical reason why better tools and AI can not make a PvE world as fun as a PvP world.
I would really like to know your thoughts on if advanced AI could provided you with the same sence of self worth as well. It is logical that the same level of challenge would provide the same level of self worth.
Ok, I have an idea.
Let's stop all talks of logical and present one basic fact. A basic fact that EVERYONE can agree on.
Resolved: Fun is in the view of the player.
Now, let's take the opening statement of this entire TEN pagee thread: Logical argument why to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based.
Let's restate this statement in a manner which makes more sense give our resolution above...
I did not respond to any of the original premises because they were all based on your opinion and hogwash.
Just because you play a game because you want to rule the world does not mean that others do. Your entire argument was just plain silly.
Actually... PVP is pretty nice, so why is everyone dissing it?
"don't find your premises logical..? I suppose that one or two things in my premises could be broken down into smaller deductive arguments. I doubt any of them are invalid. Most of them are just inductive arguments. If your trying to say you don't agree with my premises then feel free to make an argument why. The only way that my argument could be "not logical" is if the premises do not nessecitate the conclusion.
I dont have a premise 10. And I dispute that premise (that no argument is based on oO). If you repetively inject dopamine into yourself for as long as you live it will always be fun. Do compulsive gamblers ever get bored of it?
Anyways my answer to your question about why not PVE is in my argument, and that is that players consume content at 10x the speed it is created by the average devlopment team. Extending content by using tricks like making the level go from 1 to 500 when nothing really changes doesnt fool people, They get bored just as fast as if you hadn't done that. (although I suppose this tactic could be used to a limited degree and only make the game as less fun as it is used. But the goal is to make the game as fun as possible)
You did not read the argument at all.
Advanced AI - I supposed "challenge" can be taken the same as "unpredictability" which is the only thing my argument needed... Keep in mind that this AI is not to replace just 1 person, but an infinite amount of random people. You want a computer program that a player will never be able to know for sure weather or not he can consistantly beat it because its skill level is too random, no matter how many times they fight it. To answer your question, yes I think it is possible, but not any time soon.
But hmm... You send me down an interesting path of reason. If you knew there was a reward in a particular cave and wanted it, and every time you went in there a Random strength mob spawned, Or the same mob that just did a variable amount of damage or something random like this. Now I know my argument is still right but because of this I will have to change a premise. Here the outcome with the mob is unpredictable, and could even be considered a gamble. But gaining more skill and understanding of the game will not help someone accomplish this goal more, so there is not really anything to make someone feel good about winning this bet... its just luck. I will change my premise to exclude this possibility.
Thats not a basic fact, its not even a fact, and throughout this thread noone has agreed on it...
I have already addressed that hollow rainbowland argument multiple times (hollow as in it has no meaning and you certainly cannot back it up)
The average person has no clue what causes fun. They certainly do not dictate to themselves what things are fun and what things are not fun. The extent of the average person's comprehension of fun is that "it feels good".
Opinions are either right or wrong. Just because something is not commonly understood does not mean that opinions about that subject cannot suddenly be right or wrong. At one point people probably had all kinds of "opinions" about what the stars were, about weather the world was flat or round, etc etc. One day people who do not know exactly what causes fun or does not will be considered uneduacted.
If you dispute one of the premises, then give a reason why. All you do with a statement like this is demonstrate your immaturity.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I don't believe that PvP is a valid way to prolong the gaming experience. PvP in MMORPGs is nothing more than gloryfied PvE. In most cases it is pointless and boring.
Content is what keeps games alive and fun. Without content even the best PvP game will become boring.
In other words, PvP is not the savior of any game and especially not an MMORPG. The most important aspects of an RPG are content and an immersive storyline.
I've been a PvPer for a long time and I still enjoy a good PvP match from time to time. Although I usualy play games that require actual player skill rather than player's ability to kill mindless mobs and then kill mindless newbs when their toon is l33t enough.
To me a true MMORPG is a game of exploration and interaction. I don't consider pointless killing of other players as interaction in an MMORPG.
*yawn* all pvp is not pointless or boring. You wouldnt even know because you havent experienced all forms of pvp. In fact I don't even think you have experienced anything close to a good pvp game.
Content is used 10x faster than it is created. A game can not be perpetually fun just based on that.
Your statements do not dispute my premises. If you want to spout mindless nonsense with no backup go start your own thread.
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How would you know what I have and have not experienced? Making asumptions and trying to discredit someone is not a good way to have a discussion.
I don't know where you got that 10x number for content usage, care to post a link or show some sort of proof? Either way, that is why most MMORPGs have developers constantly working on new content.
By the way, making wild claims is also not a good way of having a discussion.
Finally, my statement wasn't posted to dispute your premises because to me they are mindless nonsense.
I know that you have not experienced all forms of pvp because that is impossible... I said I think that you probably haven't even played any good types because fair gamble pvp, like any fair gamble in life be it hitting on a girl, betting a ton of money, playing in a sport at a crucial moment etc is a great rush... Noone denies this.
if you dont believe that then my argument is not sound to you. (That is one of my premises btw since you obviously did not read the argument pefore you hit the post button... very intelligent
) Hardly anyone else disputes that tho. If a game takes 3 years to create then most people will get bored of it in 3 months. They might still play it..., but they will be on the forums begging for more content. Funcom said they expected it to take 4 years for someone to reach lvl 200 in AO and someone made it there in a month. (Don't know how long that game took to make but it was more than 10 months 
) Neocron: same, Endless Ages, etc etc I don't really know where I could link to proof of this if you don't already have the common knowledge. If this is the rate at which players consume content, then in order to sustain the players with content they would need 10x the staff that most devs use to make their games to begin with.
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Arg!!! Damn thing ate my post again!!! Oh great and I just spent three hours concocting a logic proof which showed that there is no way that we can prove that anybody on this forum is an athority on logic, so thusly Kriminal can not be an athority on logic, since anything hey says he knows about logic has to be based on faith. Thusly we can only speak of opinions on this channel, not in term of logic.
For no mater how logicly you look at it, I think kriminal doesn't know what he's talking about, and I'm sure he feels the same way about me. I disprove his arguement, all he has to say is no you didn't and vice versa. So there is really no point in continuing this discussion in the area of logic, that is unless kriminal you want this to turn into a game of cowboys and indians.
"I GOT YOU"
"NO I GOT YOU"