The personal question

random11 · July 2006

I periodically check the mmorpg forums, as it is a hub for players, who want to try out mmorpgs. I also check the forums of the games I played, and on the DDO boards I've been seeing the same ppl for 6 months... saying the *exact* same thing over and over, like a broken record. I argued a bit, but all gaming forum arguing is totally pointless waste of time, if it doesn't affect me.

My question is mostly for Crash, and CaptainRPG.

Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over for entire months? Is it because you have such a hate of this game; care so deeply for humanity, that you feel you need to warn every last one of them; you don't actually have limbs so wouldn't be accepted in rl (j/k) ;P; or are you hired by other companies to post bad stuff about other games on forums (no offence, i have met people like those before)? The last one is not worth it though, but still some do it.

Practically I just want to understand what keeps you going onwards like fanatics?

grape · July 2006

I think you already answered your question.

When a game become more fun to comment on it. Than to actualy play it, it has issues.

And this game has issues...

Elnator · July 2006

People who post about a game, be it negative or positive do so for one reason:
In the end, they care about the game. If they're posting negative comments it's primarily because they wish the game were better. If they are posting in defense of it... well that one is obvious.

In both cases, except for the professional trolls, the player genuinely either likes the game or wishes they could. What keeps them going? Hope....

Crash86 · July 2006

To the OP, I refer you to this post. This was the last time you tried to bait folks into an argument. My response to you now is the same as it was then.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/75793

As to El's comment ... you're spot on.

When this game was announced I was quite excited about the concept. An actual D&D MMO would be a great thing. I wasn't selected for alpha, but I participated in closed beta.

I saw that the game had issues. No biggie ... I write code for a living myself, and know that fleshing out issues is what alpha and beta testing are for. So I submitted bug reports and voiced opinions on the forums. I noticed that a lot of testers had the same issues I had. To name a few:

Limited functionality (No world to explore, no crafting, etc.)
Static encounters that never change
Substandard player communication tools
Ease of progression through levels

The inability to solo wasn't a major deal for me personally. I like soloing in a game, but their stated objective from the start was to make a group-only game. So be it. My opinion was that it was (and remains) a poor design decision. It's their sandbox .... if I want to play in it, it will be by their rules. As a tester, though, part of my job is to get them to see that modifying their rules might be a good thing for all involved. In other words, to get them to change their sandbox.

They'd wipe the servers for each test, and I'd start over ... and have a character to 5 or 6 easily by the time of the next server wipe. This on the playtime allotted a 40+ year old man with a 40 hour a week job, a wife, kids, and a life outside gaming. So I'd submit more bug reports and get more vocal on the beta boards. Lip service was paid by the developers.

Nothing changed. The game as it was released for Headstart was essentially the same game that I played through closed/open beta and two stress tests. The only changes that were mentioned by the devs on the beta boards that actually held true were that the game would be reduced from 20 levels at release to 10 levels at release.

By the time Headstart was over there were already a plethora of 10.4 characters .. just as we had predicted months before. With nothing to do but grind dungeons, levelling comes quickly for a player who wants to do nothing more than actually play the game they've just bought.

I never paid for my preorder at EBGames. I had played the game through level 6 several times already ... there was no need to pay to do it again. The dungeons hadn't changed. The kobolds hadn't changed. There was still no world to explore. The manager at EBGames let me use the money I'd paid down to buy something else.

In my opinion, the game was stillborn. You can only launch once. They blew their chance.

I have watched Turbine flail under the weight of their own poor decisions. I check their game and forums from time to time, particularly the 7 day trial boards to see if the average new player's opinions have changed. They really haven't ... had those people been beta testers, they would have been complaining about the same things I had complained about.

Now, I will admit that each time a change in the game is discussed or announced by Turbine that was suggested by us during beta ... adding solo content, PVP, crafting, an explorable world ... there is a certain amount of the "We told you so" type of satisfaction which arises from reading about the proposed changes. A validation, if you will, that it wasn't just a vocal few who felt the game wasn't right.

Had they listened and modified their sandbox to accommodate those who they accepted as testers, I may well be happily playing the game now. They elected not to. The elected to say, "If you don't like my sandbox don't come in." A lot of people took them up on that stance, and it hurt them to the point that they're now trying to go back and change the things that we suggested they change pre-launch. And they are now discovering that changing the sandbox is a much more difficult proposition once its full of sand.

As for me, I play CoV with my son and have gone back to EQ/EQ2 for myself.

I had a similar experience with MxO ... another game based on a franchise I really enjoyed. I was in closed beta and open beta, and the game's concepts were outstanding. The execution of those concepts was atrocious. I never picked up my preorder for MxO from EBGames, either. Later, when it was announced that Monolith was selling the game to SOE, I picked up the client for a penny. That's right ... $0.01. And the only reason I picked it up was that SOE announced they were going to roll MxO into the All Access Pass.

MxO is still broken. I never play it, even though I still have my SOE AAP. I never play SWG either ... but that's a story for another time.

The only thing that has kept MxO and SWG alive is the strength of SOE's catalog of games, particularly EQ and to a lesser extent EQ2. Turbine doesn't have that kind of cushion to use to absorb the hit of DDO. They already canned AC2. LOTR:O is a cost center right now ... it's not generating any input to Turbine's revenue stream. DDO stands alone.

It's barely standing at all ... a fact that's a bit of an insult to those of us who wanted the game to work so badly that we spent time trying to make it better before it was released.

Scaris · July 2006

Awesome post Crash. I think you said it all.

Elnator · July 2006

Nice post Crash

Pretty much the same feelings I have
Though you missed 1: Turbine also has AC as a drain now as well.. It's on life support. Fewer than 20k players (actually I think MMORPGCHART lists it at 10k now... scary). Which means that the ONLY revenue stream Turbine has is DDO...

If I were them?? I'd be more nervous than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

CaptainRPG · July 2006

Crash couldn't have been more vivid of my thoughts.

Crash86 · July 2006

Thanks, guys. Got on a soapbox a bit ... rare for me, I know.

I thought AC was treading water, El. Didn't realize it was down to 10K players. Still, it's pretty much paid for itself over time. My guess is that it isn't costing them any more to run than they're making off of it in subs. As badly as they're in the hole for DDO and LOTR:O, if it were draining them to keep AC running one would think they'd have the stones to just shut it down.

That's just a guess, though.

Kien · July 2006

Excellent post, Crash. Summed up my feelings as well.

Elnator · July 2006

Originally posted by Crash86

Thanks, guys. Got on a soapbox a bit ... rare for me, I know.
I thought AC was treading water, El. Didn't realize it was down to 10K players. Still, it's pretty much paid for itself over time. My guess is that it isn't costing them any more to run than they're making off of it in subs. As badly as they're in the hole for DDO and LOTR:O, if it were draining them to keep AC running one would think they'd have the stones to just shut it down.
That's just a guess, though.

Dunno.. they let AC2 coast with under 15k players for almost a year before finally pulling the plug. Maybe they have an AC1 "expansion" planned and are waiting till that releases to pull the plug 1 or 2 months later? (That's exactly what they did with AC2)

No matter how ya slice it though... Turbine is in trouble if DDO doesn't manage to hold onto it's playerbase. 90k subs isn't "bad" (though WoW kiddies would probably try to tell you it is) but if they can't hold onto it and it follows the same path AC1 and AC2 did (downward) Turbine could be in very deep trouble very quickly. At 50k+ it would still be paying off it's develpment costs... below that and you start sliding towards negative income, which begins at roughly 40k or so, depending on your cost - to - income ratio. By 20k or less you are more than likely deeply into the 'red' territory unless you pretty much stop paying for development of the game altogether.

grimboj · July 2006

Originally posted by random11

My question is mostly for Crash, and CaptainRPG.

Im not a mod but Im preeeety sure that counts as a personal attack? :P

Anyway, why do you waste my bandwidth with such drivvle? If the game is bad and someone says it is then that saves people $40-60. Thats pro humanity if you ask me.

shae · July 2006

Crash86,

Just wanted to say that I loved the post, for myself it describes many of the feelings and frustrations I've had with games I've beta tested such as SwG and very much so MxO.

I loved that game, I loved the ideas behind it, the team that was developing it, the concepts and so many other things. Unfortunately in the end, they decided to outright ignore testers they themselves invited to make the game better and IMO, the game was much worse for it.

Anyways, great read, thanks for posting it.

Crash86 · July 2006

Thanks, Shae. I think I vented all of my bad beta testing juju in one long winded post.

Grim, Im not too worried about the OP's attacks, personal or not. He has a history of trying to stir up stuff, then abandoning his threads after getting smacked around a bit. Looks like this one is no exception.

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