In the famous words of a Mr. "Ford Prefect"... " If people would stop exercising their lips, their brains would start working"....
Through your fear I am reborn. My hand of grief can't be ignored. You know my name.... yes you know who I am. Frustrating turmoil again and again. I am the spike that drives through your hand. for i am eternal battering ram! Zakk Wylde
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Originally posted by MrVice Arg!!! Damn thing ate my post again!!! Oh great and I just spent three hours concocting a logic proof which showed that there is no way that we can prove that anybody on this forum is an athority on logic, so thusly Kriminal can not be an athority on logic, since anything hey says he knows about logic has to be based on faith. Thusly we can only speak of opinions on this channel, not in term of logic. For no mater how logicly you look at it, I think kriminal doesn't know what he's talking about, and I'm sure he feels the same way about me. I disprove his arguement, all he has to say is no you didn't and vice versa. So there is really no point in continuing this discussion in the area of logic, that is unless kriminal you want this to turn into a game of cowboys and indians.
You didnt disprove my argument though... What exact thing that you said disproves what exact premise? First people claim that I'm rediculous but can't think of anything against my argument. Then they state their usual anti pvp propaganda which doesn't even apply to my argument, obviously having not even read the argument, then people try to claim that my argument has been disclaimed and "oh he just wont see it"
I don't see it because YOU HAVENT DONE IT. Until you do yeah I wont see it. Logic is not a complicated idea, and it doesn't matter what my "credentials" on logic are. Anyone with any common sense and who chooses to use it rather than be immature and compose whole posts around insulting people can evaluate logic just fine... And if they do and see a real problem with their argument I will recognize it.
I am not going to say "oh your right" because someone said "who do you think you are" or "gosh your stupid" or "I don't like pvp because there is ganking" (which doesn't apply to the pvp in my argument if you had read it) or "everyone has their own opinion" Not if 1 person says it, not if 1000 people say it.
If someone says "Hey theres a problem with premise 8 I don't think people can evaluate risk unconsiously other than 100% chance of winning or 100% chance of loosing, so loss will always be unexpected" or something like that then its something to think about. (although I thought of this problem and its not really true) or even just I don't agree with premise so and so for that matter...
Logic is synonymous with common sense applied... If you are too lazy to even read the post and your reasoning consists of "I don't like you so you must be wrong" then yeah I'm going to be irritated and tell you your acting immature. The very fact that you would post a poll like that shows that your not thinking rationally. If I am right then the fact that people disagree with me doesn't change it does it? Of course not, but beating down the truth in favor of believing whatever is easiest has worked for many people their whole lives so why stop now?
In fact if I am intelligent it is only because I have had a lifetime commitment to making sure I don't attack other people out of my own insecurities, thus obscuring what is clear otherwise. If I was abused by my father well there must be a reason why he is doing it, he was raised terribly by his father, the world is constant frustration to him etc... I go to highschool and people talk about me behind their back... No its not "oh they are just kliky gossipy punks" its they don't understand their enviornment fully and their afraid of the unknown, what might be "better" than them (in their mind), and anything which results in them recieving less attention. Simply "This is happening to me just because I am me", what is at the root of all anger, is never a sufficient explanation for me because it simply makes no sense. No one person is that important in the grand scheme of things that things happen to them just because they "deserve it".
Here you have people that, upon my posting a well thought out idea, angrily begin posting without any reasoning behind their posts I suppose because if pvp is good then they deserved it that time they got ganked and the dude made fun of them or whatever.... and angrily begin posting insulting me because I dare to disagree with them as if their idea and themselves were worthless. Most of the stuff I say is actually quite simple if you are not in a state of jumping up and down banging your keyboard.
Just like people contrive silly ideas like "everyone has their own opinion that can't be wrong" to protect themselves and each other from mental harm, the truth is much more effective in this task.
Your post dissapears because the board logs you off after a bit. Just hit back, copy the writing and paste it in a new reply after you log back in. I would have love to see this supposed "proof".
Originally posted by sonicbrew In the famous words of a Mr. "Ford Prefect"... " If people would stop exercising their lips, their brains would start working"....
Yes, I agree... the second a debate turns into an argument the quality of ideas begin to go downhill on all sides...
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Having masochistically read this entire thread I'm just going to throw in my $0.02
Kriminal, I see what you're trying to say. PvP can be fun, I'm looking forward to Lineage II castle sieges and things like that. And the thought of random PKs can add excitement to the game. But honestly, after a while getting ganked by roving packs of PKers gets really old, really fast. Casual gamers just don't have the time to be able to level their character to the point where they can hold their own against griefers.
Also PvE doesn't have to be boring and stagnant. My roommate plays FFXI and the most fun he has is in meeting new people and helping them level up, forming new groups and learning to coordinate with them. I'd say it'd be a hard stretch to say this is player competitive and yet even if square stopped publishing content, he still would have a good time playing. He also plays FPS's and 'craft games like a monster and loves to go head-to-head so it's not like he's a carebear either.
Basically, there is no RIGHT way. PvP games will have people that enjoy it. PvE games will have people that enjoy it. What's the big deal?
Originally posted by SciMo Having masochistically read this entire thread I'm just going to throw in my $0.02 Kriminal, I see what you're trying to say. PvP can be fun, I'm looking forward to Lineage II castle sieges and things like that. And the thought of random PKs can add excitement to the game. But honestly, after a while getting ganked by roving packs of PKers gets really old, really fast. Casual gamers just don't have the time to be able to level their character to the point where they can hold their own against griefers. Also PvE doesn't have to be boring and stagnant. My roommate plays FFXI and the most fun he has is in meeting new people and helping them level up, forming new groups and learning to coordinate with them. I'd say it'd be a hard stretch to say this is player competitive and yet even if square stopped publishing content, he still would have a good time playing. He also plays FPS's and 'craft games like a monster and loves to go head-to-head so it's not like he's a carebear either. Basically, there is no RIGHT way. PvP games will have people that enjoy it. PvE games will have people that enjoy it. What's the big deal?
The deal is quite simple, and your about the 10th person who made a similar statement which leads me to believe that even if people really are reading things being said in this thread they are just moving their eyes over the words...
PVP does not nessecarily equal RPK... In fact the argument at the beginning of the thread specifically excludes true RPK...
Your friend in FFXI has fun helping new players. This is the social aspect which can obviously exist in any game, and my argument is seperating it. Why? Lets look at this specific example. Your friend has fun helping new and other players. So he doesn't need content to play but he needs other players to interact with that are enjoying the content. But when the new players get bored of the content then what will he do?
This is a perfect example of why the lines of when people are getting bored of the game are so blurry.
Anyways what happens when a game is perpetually fun AND has great social interaction.
This thread does not say "Noone ever likes PVE" It says the only possible way for a game to be continually fun is to use PVP.
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If you are going into an MMORPG thinking that in anyway it can be continuously fun, you are kidding yourself. There is no possible way for a game to be fun forever, that is why they are always coming out with new ones. What you really need to be asking is how can they make a game last longer without losing its greatness. Personally i think that PvP is a great way to prolong the time a game stays fun, but the only real thing to do is to go out and buy the latest game. Then you are already enjoying yourself again instead of complaining about that old one. If a game was trying to achieve continuos fun, why would they come out with a sequel?
Kriminal I agree with what you are saying. My last statement on this thread is this..Be assured carebears are the ones that buy pvp games and bitch about gettin pked, pvpers dont buy a non pvp game and bitch about zero pvp. So I do believe that "fun" is about the individuals preferences but its the carebears that dont have fun gettin pked by pvpers....not the pvpers playing a game with no pvp...that just dont make sense.
Kriminal, I still disagree with you. In my friend's example, if some people finish the content, get bored and leave, there'll be new players that join that he can meet and interact with. I'm not throwing that example to totally invalidate PVP, I'm just trying to say that you're drawing far too much of an extreme.
You started the thread saying that to be continually fun a mmorpg MUST be pvp based but there are a lot of different ways to enjoy yourself in a game that doesn't have to involve being at the top of some hierarchy.
@BKOOL thats not nessecarily true though. It does seem somewhat reasonable, but not based on your ideas. Just because no games made yet haven't been perpetually fun doesn't mean no game ever can. Maybe it is a little silly to say FOREVER because I suppose eventually the person might see the whole process and think of it as repetitive. But that would be a lot longer than if they could reach the highest point in the game by getting all equip etc uninhibited. (Or just decided they couldn't get there any time soon.
Gambling in real life is a good example of something that some people never get bored of... at least not for a really long time.
Originally posted by SciMo
Kriminal, I still disagree with you. In my friend's example, if some people finish the content, get bored and leave, there'll be new players that join that he can meet and interact with. I'm not throwing that example to totally invalidate PVP, I'm just trying to say that you're drawing far too much of an extreme. You started the thread saying that to be continually fun a mmorpg MUST be pvp based but there are a lot of different ways to enjoy yourself in a game that doesn't have to involve being at the top of some hierarchy.
And then the new players will get bored of the content... until the market is used up which is usually pretty fast. And each inflow of new people will be smaller than the last...
I can think of two ways a player can enjoy themself in a mmorpg in a game respect. Working towards the top because they "will be respected". Being at the top because they "are respected" which is just one or few people. Even socializing follows this model in a complicated way, each person seeking respect for the jokes they make, helping others etc. whatever they like about it - theres just alot more respect to go around in social interaction than in trying to become the best. As each person makes a funny joke or helps someone they are at the top right at that moment for the few people they are currently interacting with.
But like I said this argument removes socialization because it can be in any game and is not the limiting factor. Furthermore the more people that get bored of the content and go to a better place where they can have fun playing AND socialize, the less that mmorpg is the popular place to "hang out"
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Kriminal99, I know what class you played in EQ... A Troll...
All you are doing here is trolling. Your original Premises are hogwash all based on your opinion, not facts, and definately nopt proof to your conclusion, unless your conclusion is also just your opinion, in which case it can be true, but only to you.
Here is your first Premise:
Premise 1: The game aspect of any video game (ie not the social aspect) is fun because they are looking forward to a feeling of self worth they will have by progressing in the game. In say Unreal 2 you go through the game thinking "Im going to save teh universe!!" and maybe wonder what the characters will say when you do a particularly amazing thing. In an rpg you might think "Im going to be uber when I save up and buy that next weapon" or "Im going to be uber from all this praticing on these rats when i get to lvl 100" I would propose that when this happens you are unconsiously thinking "and then everyone will love me" but this is not nessecary to this argument.
This is totally your opinion. I play ESPN Football over and over, and I am not trying to rule the world or progress in the game. I enjoy losing as much as winning, as long as the game challenged me along the way. I have played MMORPG games with no intention of going to the highest level or trying to get the best gear, or become the best crafter. I use to plau UO and just run around as a ghost, seeing the world. Watching high level characters fight, taking screen shots, etc. And I had FUN. I know what causes me to have fun, even if you believe you do not know why you have fun.
I can tear down everyone of your Premises just like this. They are all hogwash as facts. They may be true in your opinion, but they are not facts that can be said about every player. This is why I did not respond to your premises directly before, because not a one of them is a fact.
Ok Kriminal99 I have read through these post to try to get a grasp of how you are coming across and what your agenda is as a collective. Stop me if I'm wrong but it appears to be what you are saying is:
How can one dismiss the idea of PvP being fun if one has not experienced every possibility it has to offer?
Am I correct in stating this? If so then by your own definition of 'fun' one will never be bored in a perfect PvP setting and the need of wasted manpower of countless expansions would be a thing of the past. Are you still with me? Ok now perfection is different for everyone. How can anyone be capable of creating a PvP system that is 'perfect' for everyone? That in itself is highly illogical. Someone earlier stated that issue. And if anyone used the collective data of several people's ideas of what the perfect PvP system should be, then that system would suffer the penalty of being imperfect also because it would be based on the bits and pieces of some people's ideas of what a perfect PvP system is.
Have you ever seen Matrix: Revolutions? Remember the old white guy who Neo met at the source? He stated how the first Matrix created was what machines believed would be the perfect world for humans to live in. He also stated that a vast majority of humans rejected this notion, killing off entire 'crops' and thus a imperfect world was created. Get it? There can never BE a perfect PvP system to cater to ALL players because not everyone will believe it to be perfect.
Like someone stated earlier: Perfection cannot be born from imperfection.
So let me ask you this:
If human players are the main component to creating a perfect PvP system in both design and execution, then how can it be perfect?
If you say it's not then I agree whole-heartedly. But how can you hold a human (with so many random thoughts and emotions running in their minds) responsible for the enormous task of providing infinite fun for another player? You can't. Like another post-er stated, one person's idea of fun is not the same for another's. And if in your 'perfect' PvP mmorpg you limit someone's ability to have fun, then it gets finite and runs the risk of becoming boring. And that is why a mmorpg cannot be based on PvP to be continually fun.
Now about your stand on a players views on why PvP is not fun:
1) Setbacks (ie money, items, stats)
2) Crushed egos
3) Embarrassment
4) Ridicule from others
5) No competitive 'rush' (in the sense of getting pumped up)
6) Griefers
7) No content for some
8) Unsociable to begin with
I could go on. And no PvP system you or anyone else for that matter may happen to dream up can address all those concerns. You cannot sway what's embeded in a player's mind that may have been burned in the past or a player where PvP doesn't suit their taste to begin with. It's like this, people don't necessarily have to put their hand in fire to know that they will get burned. Yes there are some who do and learn to live with it and other who are mentally scarred for life because of it. But to those few who have never experienced being burned, how can you sir ask them to stick their hand in and be tested?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The average person has no clue what causes fun. They certainly do not dictate to themselves what things are fun and what things are not fun. The extent of the average person's comprehension of fun is that "it feels good".
They certainly DO dictate to themselves what causes fun. Because what is fun for you may not be fun for me. I think solving complex math problems are fun. Do you? My wife thinks learning new languages or creating a language herself is fun. I don't. Do you?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Fun is in the view of the individual player. Like it or not, these are basic facts. You can dispute it til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make a difference, and it certainly won't make your view of fun suddenly become universal.
Opinions are either right or wrong. Just because something is not commonly understood does not mean that opinions about that subject cannot suddenly be right or wrong. At one point people probably had all kinds of "opinions" about what the stars were, about weather the world was flat or round, etc etc. One day people who do not know exactly what causes fun or does not will be considered uneduacted.
Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Stars are tangable. They exisit outside the human mind. Feelings are not tangable, they do not exist out side your mind. What I feel in my mind is beautiful or fun makes no difference to anyone but me. What you feel is beautiful or fun has no bearing on me. Your idea of fun has no appeal to me, and I do not think that is fun at all. But I do recognize that it is fun for YOU and I am willing to let it go at that.
Apparently, you are not willing to accept that your idea of fun is not universal and are now attempting to forcibly impose your view of fun on the rest of us. Short of world domination and physical implants to dictate how people think and feel, what you are proposing is a futile effort, I'm afraid. But your welcome to try.
Since I tend to be a casual gamer who plays often, but without the need to powerlevel, or be the best at a game, PvP was never something I looked for in a game. As an adult, there were always younger people who had a lot more time to invest than I. For every hour I had to play, some would have 10 hours.
When a new MMORPG comes out, I look for content and artistic integrity. Being an artist myself, I want to delve into a beautiful world, that had a lot of planning and thought invested in it. Killing other players never really caught my interest.
So honestly I am more inclined to purchase a game without PvP rather than one with.
Most of the conversations amongst PvP in many games is rude, obnoxious, and more suited for a Mature rated game. Granted I cuss like a sailor around my peers, but never in game as my peers are older, whereas in game there could be children playing. No need to throw them into a world of profanity before needed. It happens soon enough. (Granted not all PvP aficionados are bad mouthed, but the vast majority are sadly)
Somewhere in a realm of pixels forgetting the mundane day to day existence called Corporate America
________________________________
What depths I may go, dare you choose to follow; grasp my hand in so chosing. Darkness within the light, sought tranquility before forgotten evermore as a grain of sand in a waterless sea of travesty.
"-Wrong Opinion: 2+2 = 5, the world is flat etc etc
Things people say are either right or wrong, regardless of weather people call them opinion or not. "
Since you still dont understand what a opinion is, I have taken the liberty of looking it up for you.
"A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:"
Your example of a opinion is wrong. 2+2=5 and the world is flat is funny. You really think that is a example? We know for FACT that they are wrong so they can not be a opinion.
Just so you dont get FACT mixed up with opinion.
"Knowledge or information based on real occurrences:
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed:
A real occurrence; an event:
Something believed to be true or real:
Since you seem to think that people used to think that the world was flat is a opinion, I have underlined part of the deffinition for you that would go with your so called opinion. At that point in time they actually thought the world to be flat. Hence BELIEVED it to be true. By the deffinition above you are yet again wrong.
Opinions CAN NOT be wrong. Tho continue to believe what you want. Your making me laugh. Now, please show me how a opinion can be wrong.
---------------------------- Omol da'Ox The Blooded
Originally posted by darkendreary Since I tend to be a casual gamer who plays often, but without the need to powerlevel, or be the best at a game, PvP was never something I looked for in a game. As an adult, there were always younger people who had a lot more time to invest than I. For every hour I had to play, some would have 10 hours. When a new MMORPG comes out, I look for content and artistic integrity. Being an artist myself, I want to delve into a beautiful world, that had a lot of planning and thought invested in it. Killing other players never really caught my interest. So honestly I am more inclined to purchase a game without PvP rather than one with.
Most of the conversations amongst PvP in many games is rude, obnoxious, and more suited for a Mature rated game. Granted I cuss like a sailor around my peers, but never in game as my peers are older, whereas in game there could be children playing. No need to throw them into a world of profanity before needed. It happens soon enough. (Granted not all PvP aficionados are bad mouthed, but the vast majority are sadly)
Somewhere in a realm of pixels forgetting the mundane day to day existence called Corporate America
Finally! A person I can relate to. I too, being an artist (well atleast I think that I am), look for artistic integrity and content in games.
Sure, I PvPed when I was younger, back in my angsty teen years. And I still do sometimes when I need a quick adrenaline rush. Though I almost never PvP in MMORPGs now, mainly because my skill as a player does not count as much as my character's skill and level.
Anyway, the point is that when I look to purchase an MMORPG, I do not look for a PvP option. I look for a beautiful world with a deep storyline that is packed with quests and treasure hunts and other cool things for me to do. PvP doesn't fall into that category anymore. Mindless killing of my peers does not hold my interest as much as it did when I was a kid.
Those of you who are trying to convince Kriminal99 of the error of his ways, you will be no more successful than he will be in convincing you of the error of yours.
There are wonderful portions of this debate that have risen from the mess of it. Leave the self-important egoist out of it and you'll find where the beauty lies.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ Kriminal99, I know what class you played in EQ... A Troll... All you are doing here is trolling. Your original Premises are hogwash all based on your opinion, not facts, and definately nopt proof to your conclusion, unless your conclusion is also just your opinion, in which case it can be true, but only to you. Here is your first Premise: Premise 1: The game aspect of any video game (ie not the social aspect) is fun because they are looking forward to a feeling of self worth they will have by progressing in the game. In say Unreal 2 you go through the game thinking "Im going to save teh universe!!" and maybe wonder what the characters will say when you do a particularly amazing thing. In an rpg you might think "Im going to be uber when I save up and buy that next weapon" or "Im going to be uber from all this praticing on these rats when i get to lvl 100" I would propose that when this happens you are unconsiously thinking "and then everyone will love me" but this is not nessecary to this argument. This is totally your opinion. I play ESPN Football over and over, and I am not trying to rule the world or progress in the game. I enjoy losing as much as winning, as long as the game challenged me along the way. I have played MMORPG games with no intention of going to the highest level or trying to get the best gear, or become the best crafter. I use to plau UO and just run around as a ghost, seeing the world. Watching high level characters fight, taking screen shots, etc. And I had FUN. I know what causes me to have fun, even if you believe you do not know why you have fun. I can tear down everyone of your Premises just like this. They are all hogwash as facts. They may be true in your opinion, but they are not facts that can be said about every player. This is why I did not respond to your premises directly before, because not a one of them is a fact.
If you don't know the premise is true then obviously the argument is wrong to you. The best Im going to do to bother to explain why your example doesn't disprove it or anything it is to tell you that exploring your surroundings is just another way to excel towards a better knowledge and ability in the game. Many many people have already confirmed this premise because they have seen it themselves when they play the game. Weather you agree with it or not does no make the premise hogwash. It also does not change weather it is fact or not. Every time I change the premise to make more clear what I am trying to say and every time someone comes first who doesn't know about psychology so I can't say respect from unknown sources... then someone who doesn't understand the fun in video games... If you want to claim that you play some a game a zillion times and have unlimited fun how much you lose, well then you would be about 1 out of a billion and I'm really not worried about you.
Your maturity level (as evidenced by your attitude) makes it clear however that it is much more likely that you would lie and say you liked anything just to try and discredit me. (hell maybe you even at this particular moment have diluded yourself into actually believing you have fun losing a game over and over just cause it makes it easier to argue against me) Either way your supposed opinion alone that this premise isn't true doesn't amount to much (without strong reasoning to contradict the majority's belief).
You didn't tear down anything.. all you said is that you don't agree with my premise... You gave one situation that you probably thought was counter to my premise that wasn't... Forgive me if I don't give up my argument for your one weakly reasoned opinion. And I'm sure anything you would have had to say about any of my other premises would have been just as weak arguments.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Ok Kriminal99 I have read through these post to try to get a grasp of how you are coming across and what your agenda is as a collective. Stop me if I'm wrong but it appears to be what you are saying is: How can one dismiss the idea of PvP being fun if one has not experienced every possibility it has to offer? Am I correct in stating this? If so then by your own definition of 'fun' one will never be bored in a perfect PvP setting and the need of wasted manpower of countless expansions would be a thing of the past. Are you still with me? Ok now perfection is different for everyone. How can anyone be capable of creating a PvP system that is 'perfect' for everyone? That in itself is highly illogical. Someone earlier stated that issue. And if anyone used the collective data of several people's ideas of what the perfect PvP system should be, then that system would suffer the penalty of being imperfect also because it would be based on the bits and pieces of some people's ideas of what a perfect PvP system is. Have you ever seen Matrix: Revolutions? Remember the old white guy who Neo met at the source? He stated how the first Matrix created was what machines believed would be the perfect world for humans to live in. He also stated that a vast majority of humans rejected this notion, killing off entire 'crops' and thus a imperfect world was created. Get it? There can never BE a perfect PvP system to cater to ALL players because not everyone will believe it to be perfect. Like someone stated earlier: Perfection cannot be born from imperfection. So let me ask you this: If human players are the main component to creating a perfect PvP system in both design and execution, then how can it be perfect? If you say it's not then I agree whole-heartedly. But how can you hold a human (with so many random thoughts and emotions running in their minds) responsible for the enormous task of providing infinite fun for another player? You can't. Like another post-er stated, one person's idea of fun is not the same for another's. And if in your 'perfect' PvP mmorpg you limit someone's ability to have fun, then it gets finite and runs the risk of becoming boring. And that is why a mmorpg cannot be based on PvP to be continually fun. Now about your stand on a players views on why PvP is not fun: 1) Setbacks (ie money, items, stats) 2) Crushed egos 3) Embarrassment 4) Ridicule from others 5) No competitive 'rush' (in the sense of getting pumped up) 6) Griefers 7) No content for some 8) Unsociable to begin with I could go on. And no PvP system you or anyone else for that matter may happen to dream up can address all those concerns. You cannot sway what's embeded in a player's mind that may have been burned in the past or a player where PvP doesn't suit their taste to begin with. It's like this, people don't necessarily have to put their hand in fire to know that they will get burned. Yes there are some who do and learn to live with it and other who are mentally scarred for life because of it. But to those few who have never experienced being burned, how can you sir ask them to stick their hand in and be tested?
To answer your first question, no that is not what I am saying. That was a single argument, not having to do with the first, about why it is rediculous for someone to say "I don't like pvp, therefore no form of pvp can be fun to me" This is no different then for someone to try one type of ice cream, say anchovi flavored, not like it, and then when someone tries to get them to try vanilla the person says "I don't like ice cream, therefore no type of ice cream can taste good to me"
I never said anything about a "perfect" pvp system. Fools keep coming in here saying (who haven't even READ the argument and are wasting my precious time) that pvp is lame because some people don't like the possibility of being greifed all the time. All I have said to them is that this A) is NOT a nessecary trait of pvp and If they had read the argument they would have seen that the argument SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES pvp where this is possible. I hope that trying to put the word perfect in my mouth and then going on about it for 20 minutes was an honest mistake.... oh wait whats this again... the fun is different for every person silliness... Once again
People do not dictate to themselves what is and what is not fun. That is what this statement tries to mean, yet noone disputes that people can not do this. It is just another rainbowland statement created for diplomatic purposes. To try and claim that it cannot be determined what makes someone have fun or not is to try and disclaim that the entire field of psychology has any legitimacy. That is rediculous. Obviously there is an explanation for what does make people have fun and what does not. If people are playing a video game, then this is what is fun about it. If you don't know or understand that then you can't understand the argument. That limits the amount of people who understand the argument to people who understand psychology OR what makes games fun. Thats fine with me because they are probably easier to debate with anyways.
You are being silly here... Once again you are trying to put a face to pvp that is commonly disliked and then say people don't like pvp because of this... when my argument specifically addresses most if not all of these issues.
1) Setbacks - One of the premises of my arguments directly adresses this. It is my claim that people will not harp on setbacks if they are quick and not rubbed in the face of the player, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the person was previously prepared for the possibility. The only way they would choose to do something that could cause them a setback and they knew it ahead of time was if the same action also entailed a chance at signifigant gain. Furthermore setbacks are ALREADY required and being used in all MMORPGS to date, specifically because players REALLY do use up content 10x faster than it is created.
2) just another form of setback... In the mind of the player it is the exact same thing. A handicap system could prevent a player from always losing.
3)same as 2, obviously
4)ok where you just trying to make it to 10 to give the illusion your argument had more weight?
5) oO This is a trait inherent to a human being... just like what makes playing games fun.
6) Players actions can be controlled and limited by the system easily. As long as setbacks follow the model outlined in my argument, then griefers can't do anything. If a player knows a person might cause them emotional stress by talking after shit after killing them, then the risk will be evaluated greater than if the person was not like that. In the worst case opponents can be prevented from communicating with each other. Furthermore this is more of a social aspect than anything to do with the game which I am not considering.
7) What are you talking about... I thought you were making a sad attempt to list traits that PVP had to be PVP
8) oO same as 7
Originally posted by Papa_Sody They certainly DO dictate to themselves what causes fun. Because what is fun for you may not be fun for me. I think solving complex math problems are fun. Do you? My wife thinks learning new languages or creating a language herself is fun. I don't. Do you? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Fun is in the view of the individual player. Like it or not, these are basic facts. You can dispute it til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make a difference, and it certainly won't make your view of fun suddenly become universal. Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Stars are tangable. They exisit outside the human mind. Feelings are not tangable, they do not exist out side your mind. What I feel in my mind is beautiful or fun makes no difference to anyone but me. What you feel is beautiful or fun has no bearing on me. Your idea of fun has no appeal to me, and I do not think that is fun at all. But I do recognize that it is fun for YOU and I am willing to let it go at that. Apparently, you are not willing to accept that your idea of fun is not universal and are now attempting to forcibly impose your view of fun on the rest of us. Short of world domination and physical implants to dictate how people think and feel, what you are proposing is a futile effort, I'm afraid. But your welcome to try.
Your trying to tell me that if I want to I can tell myself that shooting myself in the foot is going to be fun, and that sex is not. LOL
I think what you are TRYING to say, is that people like different things. For example a girl likes to be forced around a bit during sex. She probably doesn't know why.... That doesn't mean that there isn't a reason for it. It doesn't mean that someone else "isnt allowed" to know why simply because she doesn't. A psychologist will tell you that its because her dad used to get mad at her and shake her when she did somehting wrong, but then couldnt stay mad and hugged or kissed her immediately after.
There are explanations for peoples preferences weather you know them or not. Maybe it makes you mad that someone claims they could exactly understand what makes you feel certain things when you don't even know that. Deal with it. If you have a problem with it go study psychology yourself so you know too. Furthermore the only thing this has to do with my argument is premise 1, and many people have confirmed this. If you deny it then fine, then you don't understand the argument and thats one less person worth of hollow arguments for me to adress. However you started off by saying one of the main things you liked about EQ was that you were the best cleric ever... Sounds like premise 1 to me.
If someone is playing a video game, premise 1 is what they find fun about it. Now, there may be people that pay for mmo subscriptions solely to socialize and not play the game (oO) but I specifically excluded mmorpgs as purely social venues.
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See, again you are trolling. All you have done is dismissed mya rgument without proving it false.
I may not LIKE losing, but playing was still fun. Can you not get that through your head?
Point out one place in my post where something was posted immaturely? Unlike your previous posts I did not call anybody names or flame anyone which you have done more than once in this thread. I said you were trolling, I used a metaphor to EQ to state this, and in my OPINION, that is a true statement.
If you don't know the premise is true then obviously the argument is wrong to you. The best Im going to do to bother to explain why your example doesn't disprove it or anything it is to tell you that exploring your surroundings is just another way to excel towards a better knowledge and ability in the game.
What you are saying here is that you believe you can warp any idea to fit your premise....
Now I am flaming you and being immature (starting here)...
You are a nut. You don't need to become a psychologist, you need to see one.
Originally posted by darkendreary Since I tend to be a casual gamer who plays often, but without the need to powerlevel, or be the best at a game, PvP was never something I looked for in a game. As an adult, there were always younger people who had a lot more time to invest than I. For every hour I had to play, some would have 10 hours. When a new MMORPG comes out, I look for content and artistic integrity. Being an artist myself, I want to delve into a beautiful world, that had a lot of planning and thought invested in it. Killing other players never really caught my interest. So honestly I am more inclined to purchase a game without PvP rather than one with.
Who says that a game has to even have levels? In fact there is one purely pvp (economically, politically and physically) game in development right now that has no levels.
You don't like pvp cause you don't have time to powerlevel, this isn't something nessecary to pvp, you generalize your pvp expierence to all forms of pvp, thats logically flawed, you like other things in games, this doesn't contradict my argument, thanks for playing, next
Originally posted by Omol "-Wrong Opinion: 2+2 = 5, the world is flat etc etc Things people say are either right or wrong, regardless of weather people call them opinion or not. " Your example of a opinion is wrong. 2+2=5 and the world is flat is funny. You really think that is a example? We know for FACT that they are wrong so they can not be a opinion.
ROFL
Your answer to my example of a wrong opinion IS WHAT IM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU!!! Except its not true that an opinion just can't be something that is definitely known... An opinion is right or wrong when it regards anything to which there is a definite answer!!! known or not People do not limit their use of the word opinion to only things to which there is not a definite answer... especially not on this thread.
If you are saying that opinions can only be held regarding abstract ideas (and people do NOT limit their use of the word opinion to these) like right and wrong even those can be right or wrong because someone can use invalid reasoning in their ideas of such... Ancient philosiphers used to go around their cities and ask all the most prominent members of society about the definition of "courage" "honor" etc and then gleefully point out all their self contradictions...
But the things people here are claiming are opinion aren't even abstract ideas. They are things which psychologists know are not true. You go try to explain to the dude in 1400 who says its just his opinion the world is flat why he can't have that opinion and then youll know how I feel.
Originally posted by heartless
Mindless killing of my peers does not hold my interest as much as it did when I was a kid.
You gotta love how these people equate pvp to "mindless killing of your peers" but yet there is something majestic about "mindless killing of MOBs" ROFL
Originally posted by ianubisi Those of you who are trying to convince Kriminal99 of the error of his ways, you will be no more successful than he will be in convincing you of the error of yours. There are wonderful portions of this debate that have risen from the mess of it. Leave the self-important egoist out of it and you'll find where the beauty lies.
Actually if anyone used any amount of reasoning in the things they posted or where even addressing my argument at all, and had a legitimate argument against one of my premises than they would. Everyone here either doesn't read or doesn't think before they post...
If that second part is directed at me, no absolutely nothing of value that I can remember has been said in this thread against my argument... not that you have thought about the argument or weather anything said made any sense in regard to it and are any kind of judge yourself.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ I may not LIKE losing, but playing was still fun. Can you not get that through your head? Point out one place in my post where something was posted immaturely? Unlike your previous posts I did not call anybody names or flame anyone which you have done more than once in this thread. I said you were trolling, I used a metaphor to EQ to state this, and in my OPINION, that is a true statement.
The first immature thing you did was to come into the thread and post something which had nothing to do with the argument, and in fact the argument SPECIFICALLY excluded meaning you obviously didnt read it. You posted some silliness about ganking of newbies not being fun, even after this had already been done 6 or 7 times and I had pointed out that newbie ganking etc etc whatever propaganda bs whatever carebear wants to associate with pvp isn't anymore nessecary to pvp then eating ice cream while doing it.
Next, you made several rediculous insulting statements simply because you were mad that I pointed out what I just said above this, way before the troll statement. In psychological terms you got your wittle feewings hut because everyone didn't stop, bow down, and kiss your butt at the sight of your wonderful and flawless reasoning. Never mind that your post DIDNT EVEN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT TOPIC and you certainly didn't earn any respect for your reasoning.
I think about my ideas and the things I say for a very long time before I post them on the forum. I still restrain my animalistic impulses that tell me to get angry just because people don't agree with me. Thats why your immature.
Now about the game. You say you "like a challenge win or lose" Why do you like the challenge? You learn from challenges so that next time you might win. I really don't care that you (of all people) don't agree with premise 1. Many more people that have shown much more propensity for logical (as opposed to emotional) reasoning have agreed with them, more than enough to eliminate the possibillity that it is just this way for some people.
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"An opinion is right or wrong when it regards anything to which there is a definite answer!!!"
No, that is then known as a fact. Opinions do not have a definite answer, FACTS do. When you prove a opinion wrong or right, it then no longer exists as a opinion, it becomes FACTUAL based information.
Like I said, you continually mix fact and opinion up.
---------------------------- Omol da'Ox The Blooded
Originally posted by Omol "An opinion is right or wrong when it regards anything to which there is a definite answer!!!" No, that is then known as a fact. Opinions do not have a definite answer, FACTS do. When you prove a opinion wrong or right, it then no longer exists as a opinion, it becomes FACTUAL based information. Like I said, you continually mix fact and opinion up.
---------------------------- Omol da'Ox The Blooded
Im not mixing up anything.... I am saying opinion because people use opinion to talk about things to which there is a definite answer to... regardless of what the dictionary says. When they do that they give a new definition to opinion to which I am refering. In case we forgot thats WHY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT... you were trying to defends someone "opinion" of a factual situation... Then you try and tell ME that opinions can't regard factual situations... LOL
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OK Kriminal99 are you just being difficult or what? In my post I have basicly dismissed you're whole arguement on why to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based. Did you not even SEE that? Let me simplify it for you:
First the basis for YOUR whole arguement is in order for a MMORPG to be continually FUN (a player has to want to continually do it) it HAS to be PvP BASED. Is this correct? Tell me because it's silly of me to continually try to argue your point when your are not clearly sticking to a point to begin with.
Now help me outline your post please:
continually fun = happy player
happy player = ability to interact infinitely(or the illusion of it) within a PvP based mmorpg
PvP based MMORPG = a system that has very minor flaws (for maximum appeal) and very limited in restrictions (to remain continually fun)
Now before I go on please inform me as to how long continually means to you. Because I cannot continually argue a point with you unless I know exactly where you stand. And while you're at it throw in the meaning of fun for you as well. In order for this to be a debate you have to stand your ground. I refuse to respond to your premises: 1. Because I already did so (hence the revising). 2. You've failed to solidify any atempt I make to pin-point your stance.
*BTW I just read your third revision of your premises and it just goes to reiterate my statement of how you continue to dance around the topic...
**Just in case you didn't catch it the first time around, my LIST was reasons why some players choose NOT to participate in PvP, NOT what PvP should consist of:
My statement: Now about your stand on players views on why PvP is not fun: 1-8
7) No content for some (content by definition means to be satisfied or did you know that....)
Your statement:
7) What are you talking about... I thought you were making a sad attempt to list traits that PVP had to be PVP
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Your trying to tell me that if I want to I can tell myself that shooting myself in the foot is going to be fun, and that sex is not. LOL
Actually, that's exactly what I am saying. There are people who think that being hurt is a form of enjoyment. While that may not be the norm for the rest of us, for them, it's how they get off. Regardless of how they came to feel that way, it is still a FEELING and cannot be disputed, since feelings are opinions and opinions can not be wrong. You may not like the way they feel, but you don't have the right to tell they they are wrong and try to force them to feel the way you think they should.
Any attempt to enforce your opinion of fun or pleasure on anyone else is verging on the kinds of things Hilter tried. You're welcome to try, but the world will not tolerate it.
Im not mixing up anything.... I am saying opinion because people use opinion to talk about things to which there is a definite answer to... regardless of what the dictionary says. When they do that they give a new definition to opinion to which I am refering. In case we forgot thats WHY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT... you were trying to defends someone "opinion" of a factual situation... Then you try and tell ME that opinions can't regard factual situations... LOL
Actually, you're attempting to define YOUR opinon as a fact. There is no definite answer to what fun is, you have to ask the individual player. Your opinion is, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based. This is not a fact, this is an opinion.Your opinion. This can not be proven, or disproved, by facts. Current evidence would seem to indicate that many MMORPGs are continually successful (i.e. fun enough for other people to continue playing for years at a time) while NOT meeting your requirement of being PvP based. This does not disprove your opinion. This merely indicates that a great number of people find those MMORPGs to be fun and continue to play, dispite that MMORPG being non-PvP based. Because, for those people, PvP is not fun, or they can find fun in non-PvP aspects of a MMORPG.
Again, I state, I am willing to accept your premise, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based, because I realize that for YOU, in your opinion, a "fun" MMORPG must be PvP based.
Your premise, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based, does NOT hold true for ME, because in my opinion, "fun" is not based on PvP.
In other words, I am agreeing to disagree. You, however, seem to lack the maturity to accept this, and are still attempting to sway my view. Short of brain implants, hynotizing me, brain-washing or some other form of mind control, this simply isn't going to happen.
The only way I can enjoy PvP myself is not in real time, and there must not be to much time involved(the higher the stake and the more on reflexs it depend, the less I enjoy), or I go nut. Must be in the personality thing, you want to play chess(or Axis and Allies, etc) with me, you dont want to play DOOM or Warcraft with me.
PvP players are gamblers type.
Carebears players(like me) are builders players.
You cannot change that simple fact.
As for Premise 1, I strongly disagree. Company need to focus their hardwork on the customers they want to reach, but it can never be replaced by anything...all the rest are tricks to gain time, like fast talking. 10 hours for 5 programmers that bring 1 hour of game content for 1 million customer is not a bad deal...50 hours vs 1 million hours...and we suppose none of those customer play more then 1 hour there, I love farming myself and I certainly spend more time in a place like Velketor Labyrinth myself alone then all the programmers staff spend when they design the zone, all together...I love challenge as well, but not all the time, if I play 80 hours a week on a game, I want some smoother curves and some harders. With 300 days played in EQ(24 hours days)...yes, I lack a RL. *shrug*
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
To Kriminal99 I couldn't wait for your response sir, so pick a meaning please:
Main Entry: 1fun Pronunciation: 'f&n Function: noun Etymology: English dialect fun to hoax, perhaps alteration of Middle English fonnen, from fonne dupe 1:what provides amusement or enjoyment; specifically : playful often boisterous action or speech <full of fun> 2:a mood for finding or making amusement <all in fun> 3 a: AMUSEMENT, ENJOYMENT <sickness takes all the fun out of life> b:derisive jest: SPORT, RIDICULE <a figure of fun> 4:violent or excited activity or argument <let a snake loose in the classroom; then the fun began> synonymsFUN, JEST, SPORT, GAME, PLAY mean action or speech that provides amusement or arouses laughter. FUN usually implies laughter or gaiety but may imply merely a lack of serious or ulterior purpose <played cards just for fun>. JEST implies lack of earnestness in what is said or done and may suggest a hoaxing or teasing <hurt by remarks said only in jest>. SPORT applies especially to the arousing of laughter against someone <teasing begun in sport led to anger>. GAME is close to SPORT, and often stresses mischievous or malicious fun <made game of their poor relations>. PLAY stresses the opposition to earnest without implying malice or mischief <pretended to strangle his brother in play>.
Now armed with this knowledge please answer the following questions TRUE or FALSE:
1) To be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based.
2) What is fun to any person is a definite fact that cannot be changed.
3) What is fun and not fun is not dictated by the experiencing person.
If you answer false to any of these questions then sir your whole arguement is false by definition of the word fun.
Now if all of the definitions of fun are applied to your statement it STILL would be FALSE because of one word: must.
By definition it means something required and a MMORPG does not require a PvP based system to be continually fun in all its forms.
And do not try to rebuttal my response with excuses of clarifying or revising your original statement. If you do then you admit that your original statement in itself IS false thus the need to doctor it.
False opinions/statements have no bearing in debates concerning logic
/emote Ramonski prepares a steaming hot plate of crow just for Kriminal99
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Comments
Through your fear I am reborn. My hand of grief can't be ignored. You know my name.... yes you know who I am. Frustrating turmoil again and again. I am the spike that drives through your hand. for i am eternal battering ram!
Zakk Wylde
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
You didnt disprove my argument though... What exact thing that you said disproves what exact premise? First people claim that I'm rediculous but can't think of anything against my argument. Then they state their usual anti pvp propaganda which doesn't even apply to my argument, obviously having not even read the argument, then people try to claim that my argument has been disclaimed and "oh he just wont see it"
I don't see it because YOU HAVENT DONE IT. Until you do yeah I wont see it. Logic is not a complicated idea, and it doesn't matter what my "credentials" on logic are. Anyone with any common sense and who chooses to use it rather than be immature and compose whole posts around insulting people can evaluate logic just fine... And if they do and see a real problem with their argument I will recognize it.
I am not going to say "oh your right" because someone said "who do you think you are" or "gosh your stupid" or "I don't like pvp because there is ganking" (which doesn't apply to the pvp in my argument if you had read it) or "everyone has their own opinion" Not if 1 person says it, not if 1000 people say it.
If someone says "Hey theres a problem with premise 8 I don't think people can evaluate risk unconsiously other than 100% chance of winning or 100% chance of loosing, so loss will always be unexpected" or something like that then its something to think about. (although I thought of this problem and its not really true) or even just I don't agree with premise so and so for that matter...
Logic is synonymous with common sense applied... If you are too lazy to even read the post and your reasoning consists of "I don't like you so you must be wrong" then yeah I'm going to be irritated and tell you your acting immature. The very fact that you would post a poll like that shows that your not thinking rationally. If I am right then the fact that people disagree with me doesn't change it does it? Of course not, but beating down the truth in favor of believing whatever is easiest has worked for many people their whole lives so why stop now?
In fact if I am intelligent it is only because I have had a lifetime commitment to making sure I don't attack other people out of my own insecurities, thus obscuring what is clear otherwise. If I was abused by my father well there must be a reason why he is doing it, he was raised terribly by his father, the world is constant frustration to him etc... I go to highschool and people talk about me behind their back... No its not "oh they are just kliky gossipy punks" its they don't understand their enviornment fully and their afraid of the unknown, what might be "better" than them (in their mind), and anything which results in them recieving less attention. Simply "This is happening to me just because I am me", what is at the root of all anger, is never a sufficient explanation for me because it simply makes no sense. No one person is that important in the grand scheme of things that things happen to them just because they "deserve it".
Here you have people that, upon my posting a well thought out idea, angrily begin posting without any reasoning behind their posts I suppose because if pvp is good then they deserved it that time they got ganked and the dude made fun of them or whatever.... and angrily begin posting insulting me because I dare to disagree with them as if their idea and themselves were worthless. Most of the stuff I say is actually quite simple if you are not in a state of jumping up and down banging your keyboard.
Just like people contrive silly ideas like "everyone has their own opinion that can't be wrong" to protect themselves and each other from mental harm, the truth is much more effective in this task.
Your post dissapears because the board logs you off after a bit. Just hit back, copy the writing and paste it in a new reply after you log back in. I would have love to see this supposed "proof".
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Having masochistically read this entire thread I'm just going to throw in my $0.02
Kriminal, I see what you're trying to say. PvP can be fun, I'm looking forward to Lineage II castle sieges and things like that. And the thought of random PKs can add excitement to the game. But honestly, after a while getting ganked by roving packs of PKers gets really old, really fast. Casual gamers just don't have the time to be able to level their character to the point where they can hold their own against griefers.
Also PvE doesn't have to be boring and stagnant. My roommate plays FFXI and the most fun he has is in meeting new people and helping them level up, forming new groups and learning to coordinate with them. I'd say it'd be a hard stretch to say this is player competitive and yet even if square stopped publishing content, he still would have a good time playing. He also plays FPS's and 'craft games like a monster and loves to go head-to-head so it's not like he's a carebear either.
Basically, there is no RIGHT way. PvP games will have people that enjoy it. PvE games will have people that enjoy it. What's the big deal?
The deal is quite simple, and your about the 10th person who made a similar statement which leads me to believe that even if people really are reading things being said in this thread they are just moving their eyes over the words...
PVP does not nessecarily equal RPK... In fact the argument at the beginning of the thread specifically excludes true RPK...
Your friend in FFXI has fun helping new players. This is the social aspect which can obviously exist in any game, and my argument is seperating it. Why? Lets look at this specific example. Your friend has fun helping new and other players. So he doesn't need content to play but he needs other players to interact with that are enjoying the content. But when the new players get bored of the content then what will he do?
This is a perfect example of why the lines of when people are getting bored of the game are so blurry.
Anyways what happens when a game is perpetually fun AND has great social interaction.
This thread does not say "Noone ever likes PVE" It says the only possible way for a game to be continually fun is to use PVP.
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If you are going into an MMORPG thinking that in anyway it can be continuously fun, you are kidding yourself. There is no possible way for a game to be fun forever, that is why they are always coming out with new ones. What you really need to be asking is how can they make a game last longer without losing its greatness. Personally i think that PvP is a great way to prolong the time a game stays fun, but the only real thing to do is to go out and buy the latest game. Then you are already enjoying yourself again instead of complaining about that old one. If a game was trying to achieve continuos fun, why would they come out with a sequel?
Sorry for the overuse of fun.
Kriminal, I still disagree with you. In my friend's example, if some people finish the content, get bored and leave, there'll be new players that join that he can meet and interact with. I'm not throwing that example to totally invalidate PVP, I'm just trying to say that you're drawing far too much of an extreme.
You started the thread saying that to be continually fun a mmorpg MUST be pvp based but there are a lot of different ways to enjoy yourself in a game that doesn't have to involve being at the top of some hierarchy.
And then the new players will get bored of the content... until the market is used up which is usually pretty fast. And each inflow of new people will be smaller than the last...
I can think of two ways a player can enjoy themself in a mmorpg in a game respect. Working towards the top because they "will be respected". Being at the top because they "are respected" which is just one or few people. Even socializing follows this model in a complicated way, each person seeking respect for the jokes they make, helping others etc. whatever they like about it - theres just alot more respect to go around in social interaction than in trying to become the best. As each person makes a funny joke or helps someone they are at the top right at that moment for the few people they are currently interacting with.
But like I said this argument removes socialization because it can be in any game and is not the limiting factor. Furthermore the more people that get bored of the content and go to a better place where they can have fun playing AND socialize, the less that mmorpg is the popular place to "hang out"
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Kriminal99, I know what class you played in EQ... A Troll...
All you are doing here is trolling. Your original Premises are hogwash all based on your opinion, not facts, and definately nopt proof to your conclusion, unless your conclusion is also just your opinion, in which case it can be true, but only to you.
Here is your first Premise:
Premise 1: The game aspect of any video game (ie not the social aspect) is fun because they are looking forward to a feeling of self worth they will have by progressing in the game. In say Unreal 2 you go through the game thinking "Im going to save teh universe!!" and maybe wonder what the characters will say when you do a particularly amazing thing. In an rpg you might think "Im going to be uber when I save up and buy that next weapon" or "Im going to be uber from all this praticing on these rats when i get to lvl 100" I would propose that when this happens you are unconsiously thinking "and then everyone will love me" but this is not nessecary to this argument.
This is totally your opinion. I play ESPN Football over and over, and I am not trying to rule the world or progress in the game. I enjoy losing as much as winning, as long as the game challenged me along the way. I have played MMORPG games with no intention of going to the highest level or trying to get the best gear, or become the best crafter. I use to plau UO and just run around as a ghost, seeing the world. Watching high level characters fight, taking screen shots, etc. And I had FUN. I know what causes me to have fun, even if you believe you do not know why you have fun.
I can tear down everyone of your Premises just like this. They are all hogwash as facts. They may be true in your opinion, but they are not facts that can be said about every player. This is why I did not respond to your premises directly before, because not a one of them is a fact.
Ok Kriminal99 I have read through these post to try to get a grasp of how you are coming across and what your agenda is as a collective. Stop me if I'm wrong but it appears to be what you are saying is:
How can one dismiss the idea of PvP being fun if one has not experienced every possibility it has to offer?
Am I correct in stating this? If so then by your own definition of 'fun' one will never be bored in a perfect PvP setting and the need of wasted manpower of countless expansions would be a thing of the past. Are you still with me? Ok now perfection is different for everyone. How can anyone be capable of creating a PvP system that is 'perfect' for everyone? That in itself is highly illogical. Someone earlier stated that issue. And if anyone used the collective data of several people's ideas of what the perfect PvP system should be, then that system would suffer the penalty of being imperfect also because it would be based on the bits and pieces of some people's ideas of what a perfect PvP system is.
Have you ever seen Matrix: Revolutions? Remember the old white guy who Neo met at the source? He stated how the first Matrix created was what machines believed would be the perfect world for humans to live in. He also stated that a vast majority of humans rejected this notion, killing off entire 'crops' and thus a imperfect world was created. Get it? There can never BE a perfect PvP system to cater to ALL players because not everyone will believe it to be perfect.
Like someone stated earlier: Perfection cannot be born from imperfection.
So let me ask you this:
If human players are the main component to creating a perfect PvP system in both design and execution, then how can it be perfect?
If you say it's not then I agree whole-heartedly. But how can you hold a human (with so many random thoughts and emotions running in their minds) responsible for the enormous task of providing infinite fun for another player? You can't. Like another post-er stated, one person's idea of fun is not the same for another's. And if in your 'perfect' PvP mmorpg you limit someone's ability to have fun, then it gets finite and runs the risk of becoming boring. And that is why a mmorpg cannot be based on PvP to be continually fun.
Now about your stand on a players views on why PvP is not fun:
1) Setbacks (ie money, items, stats)
2) Crushed egos
3) Embarrassment
4) Ridicule from others
5) No competitive 'rush' (in the sense of getting pumped up)
6) Griefers
7) No content for some
8) Unsociable to begin with
I could go on. And no PvP system you or anyone else for that matter may happen to dream up can address all those concerns. You cannot sway what's embeded in a player's mind that may have been burned in the past or a player where PvP doesn't suit their taste to begin with. It's like this, people don't necessarily have to put their hand in fire to know that they will get burned. Yes there are some who do and learn to live with it and other who are mentally scarred for life because of it. But to those few who have never experienced being burned, how can you sir ask them to stick their hand in and be tested?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The average person has no clue what causes fun. They certainly do not dictate to themselves what things are fun and what things are not fun. The extent of the average person's comprehension of fun is that "it feels good".
They certainly DO dictate to themselves what causes fun. Because what is fun for you may not be fun for me. I think solving complex math problems are fun. Do you? My wife thinks learning new languages or creating a language herself is fun. I don't. Do you?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Fun is in the view of the individual player. Like it or not, these are basic facts. You can dispute it til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make a difference, and it certainly won't make your view of fun suddenly become universal.
Opinions are either right or wrong. Just because something is not commonly understood does not mean that opinions about that subject cannot suddenly be right or wrong. At one point people probably had all kinds of "opinions" about what the stars were, about weather the world was flat or round, etc etc. One day people who do not know exactly what causes fun or does not will be considered uneduacted.
Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Stars are tangable. They exisit outside the human mind. Feelings are not tangable, they do not exist out side your mind. What I feel in my mind is beautiful or fun makes no difference to anyone but me. What you feel is beautiful or fun has no bearing on me. Your idea of fun has no appeal to me, and I do not think that is fun at all. But I do recognize that it is fun for YOU and I am willing to let it go at that.
Apparently, you are not willing to accept that your idea of fun is not universal and are now attempting to forcibly impose your view of fun on the rest of us. Short of world domination and physical implants to dictate how people think and feel, what you are proposing is a futile effort, I'm afraid. But your welcome to try.
Since I tend to be a casual gamer who plays often, but without the need to powerlevel, or be the best at a game, PvP was never something I looked for in a game. As an adult, there were always younger people who had a lot more time to invest than I. For every hour I had to play, some would have 10 hours.
When a new MMORPG comes out, I look for content and artistic integrity. Being an artist myself, I want to delve into a beautiful world, that had a lot of planning and thought invested in it. Killing other players never really caught my interest.
So honestly I am more inclined to purchase a game without PvP rather than one with.
Most of the conversations amongst PvP in many games is rude, obnoxious, and more suited for a Mature rated game. Granted I cuss like a sailor around my peers, but never in game as my peers are older, whereas in game there could be children playing. No need to throw them into a world of profanity before needed. It happens soon enough. (Granted not all PvP aficionados are bad mouthed, but the vast majority are sadly)
Somewhere in a realm of pixels forgetting the mundane day to day existence called Corporate America
________________________________
What depths I may go, dare you choose to follow; grasp my hand in so chosing. Darkness within the light, sought tranquility before forgotten evermore as a grain of sand in a waterless sea of travesty.
Things people say are either right or wrong, regardless of weather people call them opinion or not. "
Since you still dont understand what a opinion is, I have taken the liberty of looking it up for you.
"A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:"
Your example of a opinion is wrong. 2+2=5 and the world is flat is funny. You really think that is a example? We know for FACT that they are wrong so they can not be a opinion.
Just so you dont get FACT mixed up with opinion.
"Knowledge or information based on real occurrences:
Since you seem to think that people used to think that the world was flat is a opinion, I have underlined part of the deffinition for you that would go with your so called opinion. At that point in time they actually thought the world to be flat. Hence BELIEVED it to be true. By the deffinition above you are yet again wrong.
Opinions CAN NOT be wrong. Tho continue to believe what you want. Your making me laugh. Now, please show me how a opinion can be wrong.
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Omol da'Ox
The Blooded
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Omol da'Ox
Finally! A person I can relate to. I too, being an artist (well atleast I think that I am), look for artistic integrity and content in games.
Sure, I PvPed when I was younger, back in my angsty teen years. And I still do sometimes when I need a quick adrenaline rush. Though I almost never PvP in MMORPGs now, mainly because my skill as a player does not count as much as my character's skill and level.
Anyway, the point is that when I look to purchase an MMORPG, I do not look for a PvP option. I look for a beautiful world with a deep storyline that is packed with quests and treasure hunts and other cool things for me to do. PvP doesn't fall into that category anymore. Mindless killing of my peers does not hold my interest as much as it did when I was a kid.
Those of you who are trying to convince Kriminal99 of the error of his ways, you will be no more successful than he will be in convincing you of the error of yours.
There are wonderful portions of this debate that have risen from the mess of it. Leave the self-important egoist out of it and you'll find where the beauty lies.
If you don't know the premise is true then obviously the argument is wrong to you. The best Im going to do to bother to explain why your example doesn't disprove it or anything it is to tell you that exploring your surroundings is just another way to excel towards a better knowledge and ability in the game. Many many people have already confirmed this premise because they have seen it themselves when they play the game. Weather you agree with it or not does no make the premise hogwash. It also does not change weather it is fact or not. Every time I change the premise to make more clear what I am trying to say and every time someone comes first who doesn't know about psychology so I can't say respect from unknown sources... then someone who doesn't understand the fun in video games... If you want to claim that you play some a game a zillion times and have unlimited fun how much you lose, well then you would be about 1 out of a billion and I'm really not worried about you.
Your maturity level (as evidenced by your attitude) makes it clear however that it is much more likely that you would lie and say you liked anything just to try and discredit me. (hell maybe you even at this particular moment have diluded yourself into actually believing you have fun losing a game over and over just cause it makes it easier to argue against me) Either way your supposed opinion alone that this premise isn't true doesn't amount to much (without strong reasoning to contradict the majority's belief).
You didn't tear down anything.. all you said is that you don't agree with my premise... You gave one situation that you probably thought was counter to my premise that wasn't... Forgive me if I don't give up my argument for your one weakly reasoned opinion. And I'm sure anything you would have had to say about any of my other premises would have been just as weak arguments.
To answer your first question, no that is not what I am saying. That was a single argument, not having to do with the first, about why it is rediculous for someone to say "I don't like pvp, therefore no form of pvp can be fun to me" This is no different then for someone to try one type of ice cream, say anchovi flavored, not like it, and then when someone tries to get them to try vanilla the person says "I don't like ice cream, therefore no type of ice cream can taste good to me"
I never said anything about a "perfect" pvp system. Fools keep coming in here saying (who haven't even READ the argument and are wasting my precious time) that pvp is lame because some people don't like the possibility of being greifed all the time. All I have said to them is that this A) is NOT a nessecary trait of pvp and
If they had read the argument they would have seen that the argument SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES pvp where this is possible. I hope that trying to put the word perfect in my mouth and then going on about it for 20 minutes was an honest mistake.... oh wait whats this again... the fun is different for every person silliness... Once again
People do not dictate to themselves what is and what is not fun. That is what this statement tries to mean, yet noone disputes that people can not do this. It is just another rainbowland statement created for diplomatic purposes. To try and claim that it cannot be determined what makes someone have fun or not is to try and disclaim that the entire field of psychology has any legitimacy. That is rediculous. Obviously there is an explanation for what does make people have fun and what does not. If people are playing a video game, then this is what is fun about it. If you don't know or understand that then you can't understand the argument. That limits the amount of people who understand the argument to people who understand psychology OR what makes games fun. Thats fine with me because they are probably easier to debate with anyways.
You are being silly here... Once again you are trying to put a face to pvp that is commonly disliked and then say people don't like pvp because of this... when my argument specifically addresses most if not all of these issues.
1) Setbacks - One of the premises of my arguments directly adresses this. It is my claim that people will not harp on setbacks if they are quick and not rubbed in the face of the player, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the person was previously prepared for the possibility. The only way they would choose to do something that could cause them a setback and they knew it ahead of time was if the same action also entailed a chance at signifigant gain. Furthermore setbacks are ALREADY required and being used in all MMORPGS to date, specifically because players REALLY do use up content 10x faster than it is created.
2) just another form of setback... In the mind of the player it is the exact same thing. A handicap system could prevent a player from always losing.
3)same as 2, obviously
4)ok where you just trying to make it to 10 to give the illusion your argument had more weight?
5) oO This is a trait inherent to a human being... just like what makes playing games fun.
6) Players actions can be controlled and limited by the system easily. As long as setbacks follow the model outlined in my argument, then griefers can't do anything. If a player knows a person might cause them emotional stress by talking after shit after killing them, then the risk will be evaluated greater than if the person was not like that. In the worst case opponents can be prevented from communicating with each other. Furthermore this is more of a social aspect than anything to do with the game which I am not considering.
7) What are you talking about... I thought you were making a sad attempt to list traits that PVP had to be PVP
8) oO same as 7
Your trying to tell me that if I want to I can tell myself that shooting myself in the foot is going to be fun, and that sex is not. LOL
I think what you are TRYING to say, is that people like different things. For example a girl likes to be forced around a bit during sex. She probably doesn't know why.... That doesn't mean that there isn't a reason for it. It doesn't mean that someone else "isnt allowed" to know why simply because she doesn't. A psychologist will tell you that its because her dad used to get mad at her and shake her when she did somehting wrong, but then couldnt stay mad and hugged or kissed her immediately after.
There are explanations for peoples preferences weather you know them or not. Maybe it makes you mad that someone claims they could exactly understand what makes you feel certain things when you don't even know that. Deal with it. If you have a problem with it go study psychology yourself so you know too. Furthermore the only thing this has to do with my argument is premise 1, and many people have confirmed this. If you deny it then fine, then you don't understand the argument and thats one less person worth of hollow arguments for me to adress. However you started off by saying one of the main things you liked about EQ was that you were the best cleric ever... Sounds like premise 1 to me.
If someone is playing a video game, premise 1 is what they find fun about it. Now, there may be people that pay for mmo subscriptions solely to socialize and not play the game (oO) but I specifically excluded mmorpgs as purely social venues.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
See, again you are trolling. All you have done is dismissed mya rgument without proving it false.
I may not LIKE losing, but playing was still fun. Can you not get that through your head?
Point out one place in my post where something was posted immaturely? Unlike your previous posts I did not call anybody names or flame anyone which you have done more than once in this thread. I said you were trolling, I used a metaphor to EQ to state this, and in my OPINION, that is a true statement.
If you don't know the premise is true then obviously the argument is wrong to you. The best Im going to do to bother to explain why your example doesn't disprove it or anything it is to tell you that exploring your surroundings is just another way to excel towards a better knowledge and ability in the game.
What you are saying here is that you believe you can warp any idea to fit your premise....
Now I am flaming you and being immature (starting here)...
You are a nut. You don't need to become a psychologist, you need to see one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
"An opinion is right or wrong when it regards anything to which there is a definite answer!!!"
No, that is then known as a fact. Opinions do not have a definite answer, FACTS do. When you prove a opinion wrong or right, it then no longer exists as a opinion, it becomes FACTUAL based information.
Like I said, you continually mix fact and opinion up.
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Omol da'Ox
The Blooded
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Omol da'Ox
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Blah Blah Blah...
Troll Troll Troll...
OK Kriminal99 are you just being difficult or what? In my post I have basicly dismissed you're whole arguement on why to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based. Did you not even SEE that? Let me simplify it for you:
First the basis for YOUR whole arguement is in order for a MMORPG to be continually FUN (a player has to want to continually do it) it HAS to be PvP BASED. Is this correct? Tell me because it's silly of me to continually try to argue your point when your are not clearly sticking to a point to begin with.
Now help me outline your post please:
continually fun = happy player
happy player = ability to interact infinitely(or the illusion of it) within a PvP based mmorpg
PvP based MMORPG = a system that has very minor flaws (for maximum appeal) and very limited in restrictions (to remain continually fun)
Now before I go on please inform me as to how long continually means to you. Because I cannot continually argue a point with you unless I know exactly where you stand. And while you're at it throw in the meaning of fun for you as well. In order for this to be a debate you have to stand your ground. I refuse to respond to your premises: 1. Because I already did so (hence the revising). 2. You've failed to solidify any atempt I make to pin-point your stance.
*BTW I just read your third revision of your premises and it just goes to reiterate my statement of how you continue to dance around the topic...
**Just in case you didn't catch it the first time around, my LIST was reasons why some players choose NOT to participate in PvP, NOT what PvP should consist of:
My statement: Now about your stand on players views on why PvP is not fun: 1-8
7) No content for some (content by definition means to be satisfied or did you know that....)
Your statement:
7) What are you talking about... I thought you were making a sad attempt to list traits that PVP had to be PVP
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Your trying to tell me that if I want to I can tell myself that shooting myself in the foot is going to be fun, and that sex is not. LOL
Actually, that's exactly what I am saying. There are people who think that being hurt is a form of enjoyment. While that may not be the norm for the rest of us, for them, it's how they get off. Regardless of how they came to feel that way, it is still a FEELING and cannot be disputed, since feelings are opinions and opinions can not be wrong. You may not like the way they feel, but you don't have the right to tell they they are wrong and try to force them to feel the way you think they should.
Any attempt to enforce your opinion of fun or pleasure on anyone else is verging on the kinds of things Hilter tried. You're welcome to try, but the world will not tolerate it.
Im not mixing up anything.... I am saying opinion because people use opinion to talk about things to which there is a definite answer to... regardless of what the dictionary says. When they do that they give a new definition to opinion to which I am refering. In case we forgot thats WHY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT... you were trying to defends someone "opinion" of a factual situation... Then you try and tell ME that opinions can't regard factual situations... LOL
Actually, you're attempting to define YOUR opinon as a fact. There is no definite answer to what fun is, you have to ask the individual player. Your opinion is, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based. This is not a fact, this is an opinion. Your opinion. This can not be proven, or disproved, by facts. Current evidence would seem to indicate that many MMORPGs are continually successful (i.e. fun enough for other people to continue playing for years at a time) while NOT meeting your requirement of being PvP based. This does not disprove your opinion. This merely indicates that a great number of people find those MMORPGs to be fun and continue to play, dispite that MMORPG being non-PvP based. Because, for those people, PvP is not fun, or they can find fun in non-PvP aspects of a MMORPG.
Again, I state, I am willing to accept your premise, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based, because I realize that for YOU, in your opinion, a "fun" MMORPG must be PvP based.
Your premise, to be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based, does NOT hold true for ME, because in my opinion, "fun" is not based on PvP.
In other words, I am agreeing to disagree. You, however, seem to lack the maturity to accept this, and are still attempting to sway my view. Short of brain implants, hynotizing me, brain-washing or some other form of mind control, this simply isn't going to happen.
The only way I can enjoy PvP myself is not in real time, and there must not be to much time involved(the higher the stake and the more on reflexs it depend, the less I enjoy), or I go nut. Must be in the personality thing, you want to play chess(or Axis and Allies, etc) with me, you dont want to play DOOM or Warcraft with me.
PvP players are gamblers type.
Carebears players(like me) are builders players.
You cannot change that simple fact.
As for Premise 1, I strongly disagree. Company need to focus their hardwork on the customers they want to reach, but it can never be replaced by anything...all the rest are tricks to gain time, like fast talking. 10 hours for 5 programmers that bring 1 hour of game content for 1 million customer is not a bad deal...50 hours vs 1 million hours...and we suppose none of those customer play more then 1 hour there, I love farming myself and I certainly spend more time in a place like Velketor Labyrinth myself alone then all the programmers staff spend when they design the zone, all together...I love challenge as well, but not all the time, if I play 80 hours a week on a game, I want some smoother curves and some harders. With 300 days played in EQ(24 hours days)...yes, I lack a RL. *shrug*
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
To Kriminal99 I couldn't wait for your response sir, so pick a meaning please:
Main Entry: 1fun
Pronunciation:
'f&nFunction: noun
Etymology: English dialect fun to hoax, perhaps alteration of Middle English fonnen, from fonne dupe
1 : what provides amusement or enjoyment; specifically : playful often boisterous action or speech <full of fun>
2 : a mood for finding or making amusement <all in fun>
3 a : AMUSEMENT, ENJOYMENT <sickness takes all the fun out of life> b : derisive jest : SPORT, RIDICULE <a figure of fun>
4 : violent or excited activity or argument <let a snake loose in the classroom; then the fun began>
synonyms FUN, JEST, SPORT, GAME, PLAY mean action or speech that provides amusement or arouses laughter. FUN usually implies laughter or gaiety but may imply merely a lack of serious or ulterior purpose <played cards just for fun>. JEST implies lack of earnestness in what is said or done and may suggest a hoaxing or teasing <hurt by remarks said only in jest>. SPORT applies especially to the arousing of laughter against someone <teasing begun in sport led to anger>. GAME is close to SPORT, and often stresses mischievous or malicious fun <made game of their poor relations>. PLAY stresses the opposition to earnest without implying malice or mischief <pretended to strangle his brother in play>.
These are the 2 I have chosen for this topic:
1 : what provides amusement or enjoyment
3 a : AMUSEMENT, ENJOYMENT
Now armed with this knowledge please answer the following questions TRUE or FALSE:
1) To be continually fun a MMORPG must be PVP based.
2) What is fun to any person is a definite fact that cannot be changed.
3) What is fun and not fun is not dictated by the experiencing person.
If you answer false to any of these questions then sir your whole arguement is false by definition of the word fun.
Now if all of the definitions of fun are applied to your statement it STILL would be FALSE because of one word: must.
By definition it means something required and a MMORPG does not require a PvP based system to be continually fun in all its forms.
And do not try to rebuttal my response with excuses of clarifying or revising your original statement. If you do then you admit that your original statement in itself IS false thus the need to doctor it.
False opinions/statements have no bearing in debates concerning logic
/emote Ramonski prepares a steaming hot plate of crow just for Kriminal99
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."