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Vanguard Forum Reaction to Criticism
jonaku
Member Posts: 281
I thought this thread is very typical of how the Vanguard community reacts to any genuine criticism of its hardcore game mechanics. The responses below are from the first 2 pages and constitute over 50% of the responses to the original post.
scott2978
I had high hopes for Vanguard when I read a review online recently. Intricate crafting system, lots of diversity, great graphics. But then I came to the Vanguard website, and my hopes have become tarnished. No instanced zones? I thought Vanguard was supposed to be 3rd gen? I guess the designers of EQ haven't learned all the lessons. Corpse retrieval? Gear driven questing system? Hmm this is sure starting to sound like EQ to me... The things I hated about EQ were just these. I HATED retrieving my corpse. It was a gigantic time sink and annoying as hell and nothing more. I HATED gear and loot being the only reason I ever did anything in the game. Why is having a MISSION TO ACCOMPLISH not a quest drive that anyone making MMOs seems to realize? I HATED other players griefing and training and kill stealing. But no instanced dungeons in Vanguard huh? I'm sorry to say that Vanguard does not really sound like a 3rd gen MMO to me. It sounds like EQ2.5 If it turns out that way, don't expect me to play. I bet I'm not alone either.
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Cloudsong
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Infernius
Bye
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Ilanidrac
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
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SpiritofHero
K, but thanks for stopping by.
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Savemefromwow
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
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Ardikus
Originally Posted by scott2978
I bet I'm not alone either.
No. You aren't. Why don't you go preach Christianity on a Muslim message board? I'm sure you won't be alone there either.
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xtrozero
See ya don't let the door hit you in the ....
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safwd
I too say good for you. If he sticks to his guns and doesnt play that is awesome.
The question i have is if you dont want to play a game why even bother coming on that games site
to say that you wont be playing?
If it isnt worth your time playing why is it worth your time posting??
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Vindicoth
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
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Ziegfried Trueblade
Sweet! But just one thing before the door smacks you on the way out OP! See, this game is NOT EQ. It has some of the same design philosophy but its definately not EQ. Different world and lore for one thing.
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Panglos
Wow.
So nice of you to let us know that you aren't going to be playing; I was seriously worried for a while there.
[links to http://www.geocities.com/tasteofeuropenj/myspace/ponch.jpg]
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Guanott
OooooOoOOOOooo....two in one day.
Can I have your stuff?
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Womby
Once again I agree with everyone else. Don't play then! Find a game you like. But dont waste our time (and your own) by telling us that you aren't going to play. We dont really care
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barhoom
I must say all u said sounds like WOW why dont u stay with it?
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Dravoth
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
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Brenskifhn1
I really dont think anyone cares about what you think anymore
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strider4222
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahaahahh...first laugh out loud in a long while
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Iunar
So some people (OP) think 3rd generation MMO means 3 times as lazy as the first people? No CR? Does that mean no rez sick and no death penalty at all? Hell maybe dying should be rewarded, THAT would be evolution! And everything should be instanced since I don't want anybody stealing my mobs or camping a spot that I like. God I hate people, afterall that's why I play MMOs, to stay away from people. Maybe they should eliminate the XP/lvl grind altogether by just having people roll toons at the level cap as soon as the servers go live, I mean who needs to learn the intricacies of their character anyway? We all want STUFF and we want it NOW!!!
/sarcasm off
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MJay
I think I sort of have to agree... at least he's saying why he won't be playing.
But his reasons make me glad he's not.
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Taro_Lion
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
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Arment
Cellar Door.
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knight1138
Will this game be to everyones liking probaly not. I just dont think its fair to make this statement on what information we do have available to us. Now if you truelly feel this way there are other upcoming MMO's that might be to your style of play
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Naglassul
Oh my gosh...these aren't even critics,that's just stupid.
If you don't like the idea of the game then don't play it and don't disturb us with your whining
If you don't like corpse retrieving,fine,then go and play WoW.
If you don't like games without instanced-zones then go and play WoW.
Hell,if you don't like Vanguard then leave us alone
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darkwing15
Good don't play you won't be missed. If you can't take an extra 20 min. to read up on the forums and
write an intelligent review, go back to nubville where ya came from.
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SeaOfHoles
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
Or how about www.whackamole.com for you?
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James Snay
Wow, you sound liek a little girl. You don't get the game YOU want out of the devfelopers so you cry and whine and say that you aren't going to play. I have a young nephew and it is no exaggeration to say that he is more mature than you. Good riddance. It's simple, if you don't like what the game offers then don't play. But please don't post your drivel either.
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Fraxture
Hello...
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And, goodbye.
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Sturnum
Go play World of Dullcraft. ...Thanks for posting though input is always welcome.
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Malus
Originally Posted by Cloudsong
www.worldofwarcraft.com
Comments
Aside from finding any threads like the one Jonaku posted hillarious (I mean, come on...it's funny)... AllI can do is /shrug. Every community has it's jerks, and they're usually the ones that get the spotlight.
Personally...I doubt many of those people were serious, in the sense that they were being elitest...(stay with me).... If you spend alot of time over on those forums, you'll know that the "Go play WoW" response is meant to be (for the most part) funny, especially if it doesn't come with a flame. You probably don't see it as such, and that's fine...whatever... But it is as obligatory as someone saying "Looks like someone just got pwned by a X" post in a "Nerf Xs!!!!!1!" thread.
Take that as you will... but the Vanguard Community has developed a habit of trying to set itself apart from World of Warcraft (which, ironically, most devs at Sigil agree that WoW is a well made game)... it is partially an identity, need to belong thing... But then again, ... it is really just common sense to not go to someone's house and tell them how they should arrange their furniture. Criticism is expected on unaffiliated websites such as MMORPG...but I mean...on the Official boards? o.O....on the Fan Boi's home turf? =P
PS: I suggest nobody take Jonaku's flame bait... just look at every other thread he's started/posted in.
/agree
/agree
It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
/agree
It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
=/ You aren't criticizing the game, dude...you are criticizing the people, hence "Flame Bait"...
If you had spoken about the game mechanics and talked about their pros and cons and why you think the game won't be fun, discussion would occur and fun would be had by all. Instead, you attack the types of people that are fans of the game...which, you know...people take offense to being labled and judged by others.
no actually, making topic after topic on how the vanguard community is bad in a vanguard forum is indeed flame bait.. i will say no more.
If you can point me to a forum that has over 500,000 posts AND doesn't have it's fair share of the same type of posters, I'll be very surprised. But, perhaps there is one out there.
One of the major differences is that Vanguard is going to be closing it's official forum down as soon as the game ships. The fan sites I've visited are a lot more friendly than the official site. Mainly because of the numbers involved, but also because of the closer community that a fan-site seems to foster.
So, I would suggest just not visiting the official forum (unless you are thick-skinned); there isn't any information there that can't be found from other sites anyway.
Pride is a psychological necessity for a healthy self =P
Too much, it is true, is harmful to someone's relationships with others...But you see, this people that got these responses didn't have a relationship with any of these people. Allow me to direct you to a related theory...and it's really only multiplied by the Internet...
Hence John Gabriel's Greater Fuckwad Theory
/agree
It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
=/ You aren't criticizing the game, dude...you are criticizing the people, hence "Flame Bait"...
If you had spoken about the game mechanics and talked about their pros and cons and why you think the game won't be fun, discussion would occur and fun would be had by all. Instead, you attack the types of people that are fans of the game...which, you know...people take offense to being labled and judged by others.
i dont think you're getting it. basically, the vanguard forums have been invaded by a group of hardcore players who are camping the forums like a rare spawn. all they do is this is (a) pine away for more sadomasochistic gameplay (b) visciously attack anyone questioning the game as too tedious by telling them to go play wow or accusing them of being trolls.
i fear that the devs take these clowns seriously. and that's too bad because it reinforces to the devs the kind of gameplay that will ensure that less than 200 k people end up subscribing.
look at it this way. if the community was overwhelmingly calling out for more casual play, i'm pretty sure the devs would be designing a different way. but if all the devs hear on that forum is that players want xp loss/debt, painful corpse runs, no GPS radar on the maps, very long leveling times to max level, no central auction markets and so forth, then that's what the devs will design.
at the end of the day, the "vanbois" ARE a valid target of criticism because they are arguably a MAJOR reason why the game is so unpalatable right now to casual players. fix the community and you just might create an environment that fixes the game.
just as an aside, this is what someone just posted on the vanguard gameplay forum today:
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shrewd
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1276767", true);
Seriously listening to some of the old EQers around here I just /boggle.
"I want travel to take hours... I want death to mean something... I want Boat rides the maximize bore-ability"
These things are all easily accomplished by individual people if they choose to go that route... Speaking old eq to these guys... You want travel to take eons.... DON'T USE THE TRAVEL SYSTEMS.
You want death to mean something... DELETE your character if you die.
You want to maximize borability.... there are infinite ways to accomplish this to your own boring needs.
However, what you are really saying is.
"I want this game to be boring because I am boring... and I want everyone to be boring too."
"If I die and have to delete... I want everyone else to have to delete if THEY die too"
"If it takes me 10 hours to move 12 pixels... I want everyone to take 12 hours to move 12 pixels..."
Guess what you don't have to inflict your choices for maximizing the most boring and annoying aspects of gameplay onto the rest of the playerbase.
People want choice... not pigeon holed boredom, especially if you really want to be hard core... you can do what ever you choose to do by NOT using the options available... If you are too weak to do it.... that should not be everyone's problem.
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1276778", true);
I'm not overly worried that just because the official forums are infested with some bad apples that it's going to make the Devs drastically shift their design plan. They read lots of forums, they listen to the players in Beta, they play the Beta themselves, etc. Feedback from the official is just one avenue of info, not the ONLY avenue of info.
The only thing I've noticed about the official forums concerning myself is that it's made me shift to fan-sites sooner rather than later. It was going away anyway, so it was something that I was going to have to do eventually.
I've been posting on the VOF for a while now...If you want an idea of how the REAL Vanguard community is going to turn out...try visiting the Off Topic forums...it's less severe there. 90% of the people who post in the Gameplay forums are relatively new to the community or visit only once in a while to have a look see if anything dramatic has changed.
The thing is, for most people, they show up to the forums, they post a while on the Gameplay forums, yell and bitch and scream about what they think MMOs should be like, and then they get burnt out because because they are shown too many FAQ quotes about what Vanguard is....and then they either drift to the Off Topic forums and post about nonsensical things or stop posting on the forums all together.
That is why there are still PvP vs PvE threads going on in a 4 year old community....most of the people who've been there for a long time have sense given up on the argument =P
Wassap Silas =P
I do fear that you guys are are subconsciously giving in to rabid fanboi ideas. I guess I'll know for sure after you INVITE ME TO BETA!!! <---- hint hint
PS: My guild too
/agree
It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
You never answered the guy who wanted to know why you had to go tell everyone you were not gonna play when no one really cares. Im curious.
And by the way, you dont walk into someones house and piss on their floor and expect em to have nice things to say to you.
/agree
It is regrettable that any valid criticism of the game is considered "flame bait". Unfortunately, instead of discussing the issue in a civil manner, you have resorted to the stereotypical approach of labelling all criticism as trolling.
You never answered the guy who wanted to know why you had to go tell everyone you were not gonna play when no one really cares. Im curious.
i've answered this in several other related threads. too tired to repeat this every time i'm asked.
And by the way, you dont walk into someones house and piss on their floor and expect em to have nice things to say to you.
there's the rub. the vanbois act as if i'm walking into THEIR house and pissing on THEIR floor. but here's the surprise twist ending: the forums are in fact COMMUNAL PUBLIC spaces. it's neither the hardcore's house nor the casual's house. and that's what is so absurd about vanboi outrage, that they act as if we casuals are imposing onto private property when in fact the vanbois are just squatting in a public park of opinion.
nobody should be surprised that the public statement of a Sigil employee will be:
(1) devs are not influenced by either radical side of the debate (vanbois vs trolls)
(2) there is nothing valid in the criticism of the vanguard official forums as being hijacked by hardcore vanbois who vehemently attack any dissenting opinion
look at poor employee nino who suggested that maybe the game mechanics should be casualized a bit. he was rabidly attacked by the vanbois and brad had to publicly over-ride him and assure the vanbois that nino's dangerous ideas can be safely ignored. how embarrassing. after that, no employee would be dumb enough to say anything to remotely provoke the vanboi community who worship the cult-like vision(tm).
anyways, thanks for dropping by. hopefully by reading the open arguments in this forum (as opposed to the lack of argument on your official forums), you can learn what a wider community of people feel about the game and its community. and despite the fact that you'd be crazy to provide an honest dissent about your own company's direction in a public forum, just maybe, you can be discreetly honest about it within your own company. hopefully that might assist in getting the course correction that your company and game so desperately need.
Way to put words in his mouth
Yes, free discussion... You do realize that you are a different side of the same coin right? You don't listen to any arguments to the contrary of your beliefs and often disregard direct rebuttles made toward arguments you make.
The discussions on these forums are no more free of Vanboism and Doomsayers than the OVF and FOH boards.
This is the part that you are missing.... YOU ARE ATTACKING THE COMMUNITY NOT THE GAME. That is what gets people pissed off, it isn't about Hardcore vs Casual, or Travel Times vs Teleport....you're flat out saying "You guys suck"....that's why people get angry at you.
Way to put words in his mouth
look at poor employee nino who suggested that maybe the game mechanics should be casualized a bit. he was rabidly attacked by the vanbois and brad had to publicly over-ride him and assure the vanbois that nino's dangerous ideas can be safely ignored. how embarrassing. after that, no employee would be dumb enough to say anything to remotely provoke the vanboi community who worship the cult-like vision(tm).
anyways, thanks for dropping by. hopefully by reading the open arguments in this forum (as opposed to the lack of argument on your official forums), you can learn what a wider community of people feel about the game and its community. and despite the fact that you'd be crazy to provide an honest dissent about your own company's direction in a public forum, just maybe, you can be discreetly honest about it within your own company. hopefully that might assist in getting the course correction that your company and game so desperately need.
Yes, free discussion... You do realize that you are a different side of the same coin right? You don't listen to any arguments to the contrary of your beliefs and often disregard direct rebuttles made toward arguments you make.
The discussions on these forums are no more free of Vanboism and Doomsayers than the OVF and FOH boards.
i do listen to the arguments to the contrary. i just don't agree with them.
i do not disregard direct rebuttals made. i just don't agree with them.
do you mean that i ignore certain rebuttals? of course. that's my right. i am not obligated to answer every rebuttal that i find that i have addressed previously in the same or other thread. or rebuttals too ridiculous to address.
basically your arguing that because i do not change my opinion, i must be ignoring, disregarding and not listening. oh that's wonderful. /golfclap.
what distinguishes this forum from vanguard's is this simple fact: if i post a criticism here, i don't have 20 posts in reply telling me that i'm a troll and that perhaps i should play wow. here, i only get 5 to 10 such replies. and i actually even get some replies in support of my criticism.
i'm sorry that it upsets you that people in this forum are allowed to voice BOTH sides of the argument. hopefully u'll evenutally get used to it. free speech is a wonderful thing. u might even learn something by exposing yourself to different opinions.
look at poor employee nino who suggested that maybe the game mechanics should be casualized a bit. he was rabidly attacked by the vanbois and brad had to publicly over-ride him and assure the vanbois that nino's dangerous ideas can be safely ignored. how embarrassing. after that, no employee would be dumb enough to say anything to remotely provoke the vanboi community who worship the cult-like vision(tm).
anyways, thanks for dropping by. hopefully by reading the open arguments in this forum (as opposed to the lack of argument on your official forums), you can learn what a wider community of people feel about the game and its community. and despite the fact that you'd be crazy to provide an honest dissent about your own company's direction in a public forum, just maybe, you can be discreetly honest about it within your own company. hopefully that might assist in getting the course correction that your company and game so desperately need.
Yes, free discussion... You do realize that you are a different side of the same coin right? You don't listen to any arguments to the contrary of your beliefs and often disregard direct rebuttles made toward arguments you make.
The discussions on these forums are no more free of Vanboism and Doomsayers than the OVF and FOH boards.
i do listen to the arguments to the contrary. i just don't agree with them.
i do not disregard direct rebuttals made. i just don't agree with them.
do you mean that i ignore certain rebuttals? of course. that's my right. i am not obligated to answer every rebuttal that i find that i have addressed previously in the same or other thread. or rebuttals too ridiculous to address.
basically your arguing that because i do not change my opinion, i must be ignoring, disregarding and not listening. oh that's wonderful. /golfclap.
what distinguishes this forum from vanguard's is this simple fact: if i post a criticism here, i don't have 20 posts in reply telling me that i'm a troll and that perhaps i should play wow. here, i only get 5 to 10 such replies. and i actually even get some replies in support of my criticism.
i'm sorry that it upsets you that people in this forum are allowed to voice BOTH sides of the argument. hopefully u'll evenutally get used to it. free speech is a wonderful thing. u might even learn something by exposing yourself to different opinions.
This is the part that you are missing.... YOU ARE ATTACKING THE COMMUNITY NOT THE GAME. That is what gets people pissed off, it isn't about Hardcore vs Casual, or Travel Times vs Teleport....you're flat out saying "You guys suck"....that's why people get angry at you.
as many in the FOH forums have echoed (see http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/85847), many people feel that the community is driving many of the problems with the game. i understand that any group of people never likes to hear that they are ruining what they love so much. i get that. but just because a truth is bitter doesn't make it untrue. vanbois are earnest in their beliefs. but they are so radical about it, they have resorted to unethical tactics. and their self-serving substantive belief that the game should be as hard core as possilbe is only reinforcing the dev's mistaken beliefs that a hardcore MMO will be commercially viable given its high production values.
Thing is, those same people are giving the community too much credit and the Sigil team not enough. If the game ends up sucking, it's our fault, not the fault of the community. On the other hand, if the game ends up being enjoyable for the majority, it means we did good and should be given cookies
I will be happy to respond more later but have to head out. I will continue to lurk and try to clear some stuff up, at least as much as I can without breaking the NDA (and yes, devs are under an NDA also). I played the game up to the level cap well before being hired by Sigil so I suppose I have a pretty decent idear about what playing in beta entails