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of bots and money
Cryomatrix
Member EpicPosts: 3,223
in Lineage 2
Hey guys,
I am interested in a semi-mature post about the botting issue in L2.
The way I see it, NCsoft allows botting for the most part because it probably makes up a large portion of their player base. If one could say 20-30% of their players are bots, I wouldnt' be surprised.
I believe NCsoft allows botting due to the money they gain, this is also the precise reason why they do not ban obvious botting trains. You see one guy botting and that person has 10 accounts, thats $150 per month, they obviously wont' ban that person.
However, they do ban bots imo if the perpertrator has only a few accounts and then say "hey we ban bots". I was thinking of a solution.
You know when the player clicks for a server they have some EULA agreement or whatever to agree to. Why not, after that initial window popup, you put another window that says.
If you are caught botting, which is against the rules, this hampers the entertainment and value and utility of all the other players on the realm, etc, etc. We will charge your credit card $200. That would mean, one person has a huge bot train up consisting of 10 bots, NCSoft sees it, and boom that is $2000 for their company there.
The rationale behind the move would be to elicit this response, "WOAH, look a company is actually fining people for breaking the EULA, let's go to that game because the devs actually care".
I think this would provide NCsoft with money that they're seeking and it would improve the appeal for this game.
One thing i was thinking about was that if all bots were banned, i think the prices for items would probably skyrocket due to a drastically low supply of materials. So how could NCsoft fix this while garnering more appeal.
One way to fix the appeal would be to have more proprietary objects in the game that produce large amounts of materials per week, Like:
More castles
Animal farms = produces large amounts of animal bones, animal skin, strider meat
Mines = produces large amounts of coal, iron ore, etc
Crystal mines = enria, thons, asofe etc or whatever the basic mats are
Tree farming area = blank scrolls, stem, braided hemp, compound braid, etc
This would allow for clans to have more things to own, hence give people more things to do besides grinding.
In conclusion, i'm wondering why a company doesn't impose a fine for breaking the EULA. I assume there would be tons of lawsuits and complaining and bickering, but then again, if you put it in the contract language and make it clear and specific, you may be able to avoid that nonsense.
On another note, if someone will say, "after the first few bot trains are charged, all the botters will leave the game?" I'd hope NCsoft is smart enough to spend a few weeks flagging the botters and then charging them all at once so no one will escape.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
Anyways I'm glad you took the time to think out some solutions. They sound interesting. Maybe put them up on the official Lineage 2 message board?
PS:
Currently there are rumours that NCsoft has weeded out bots on bartz and kain, and are in the process of doing so on the other servers. Only rumours though..
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Maybe they'll try in Lineage 3
Anyways I'm probably gonna leave for Ragnarok Online 2 when that comes. I heard some sexy stuff about their anti-hack/bot system.
That's a good post, I wish there was a better way to handle the situation.
I recently cancelled my acct due to a few factors atm, but having to compete with bots is definately one of the reasons. Hard to do kill tasks on specific mobs, when there are roughly 3-4 farmers in the area constantly stealing em out from under you.
I did the whole petition thing, got the usual response and literally every day for 2 weeks, the same bots were in the same area, hunting the same mobs.
very dissapointing
.
Current Games:
That would be a nice idea, fine people for using bots.
Hell, i got full lvl 70 PP buffs from a bot before
Anyways, NCSoft does ban bots. However, right as they do the bot's can simply make a new account.
You missed the point, they'll ban you because you're only $15 per month. So they ban you, and then your friends say wow L2 is banning bots, so peopel are like YAY, they're banning bots so the bot problem will be decreasing.
I guarantee you if you had 4 or more accounts they'd do nothing, if you had 9 accounts i hghly doubt they'd ban you because, 9x$15 = $135 per month and whyu would they lose that money.
My point is, they ban individual botters, they'd never ban others, i have heard some people have over 50 bots. There is no way they would ban that person who controlled 50 bots and L2 was their income basically.
But if they fined people, then they could for example, that 9 person botter they could fine that person 1800 and boom 120 months of one person playing lineage2.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Actually they would make more money if they banned more accounts. The frustrating thing is they do not want to take a hard stance becuase they believe in the innocent until proven guilty approach.
SOE on the other hand takes the guilty and prove you are innocent approach. I understand NCsoft NA's reluctance to ban accounts without conclusive proof but the problem is that botters and pro farmers take advantage of this kindness that NCSOFT is showing for the playerbase.
While I normally do not agree with SOE and sometimes innocent players are banned their hardstance does a better job combating pro farmers and botters with their mass bannings compared to NCSOFT.
Bots can't be used on free "private" L2 servers. Why? The free servers can tell if anyone attempts to use a bot. The server administrator decides if bots are allowed, or not. And it works. You can't bot if they don't allow it. Simple. The NCsoft servers apparently don't have this advanced magical technology. As bot users have no problem accessing the "Live" servers. It seems that the free, non-profit servers run by your every day Joe have super-high tech methods of bot detection that a multi-billion dollar corporation like NC soft just can't afford!
Conclusion: NC knows every person that uses a bot, every time the bot is used. It's a financial dicision to pretend "We must presume innocent!".
Lineage 2 has devolved to a simple motto: You cheat, or you get cheated. The legit players are all gone, and there isn't even a stigma around cheating anymore. After 18 months of legit play, I finally gave in and joined 90% of the players in doing exactly what NC wants us to do: Quit complaining about cheaters and start cheating yourself.
It seems to me that NC just wants the western version of L2 (which has, lets face it, been a complete financial flop in the western world), to die. Let it get so stupid that nobody wants to ever log in again. Then NC can cut its losses and pull the plug.
Farmers make up the bulk of active subscription for L2. If they go, the game is shut down. Period. The reason this actually works is kind of interesting. Your average player isn't going to have more than 3 accounts. PlayerA says "Hey i make loads of money and want to spend it on my L2 hobby. But i can't run more then 3 accounts at once! How can I give NC soft more money?" Well cheif, here's how:
Player buys Adena online to get that uber-weapon.
Farmers take that cash from selling the adena, and buy 9 accounts for that catacomb bot train they have been wanting.
NCsoft laughs all the way to the bank. (Every time someone ebays, they are buying accounts by proxy.)
Understand?
Interesting thought hadubnano, however what many people that claim the majority of players in any game are farmers to resell do not realise in the basic principal of supply and demand. If the majority of players are farmers reselling then who are they reselling to? It would sort of be like like any business outnumbering the amount of customers. Thats called "market saturation" and usually puts everyone out of business.
Now onto Cryomatrix's thoughts (hiya cryo, good to see you still playing
) I don't think NC really "condones" the use of bots but they definately encourage it by reacting to them the way they do. By taking the "innocent" until proven route it makes it much less likely you will get banned. NC reacts far to slow but they do however eventually get around to banning. L2 has also has mass banning in the past. It doesn't happen at lighting speeds in other games either.
(also, you can't compare a private server because they simply do not have the same populations as an actual server, so yes, it is much easier to control logically. Thats not "magic" thats only a few hundred people playing on a crappy private server while the admins are looking to shake everyone down for donations or to sell them the currency or uber gear for real cash)
The one thing I dread in any game is the fact that I will eventually have to deal with farmers / bots. I've had runs with them in just about any game. Go look at IGE and see. You can pick any game you like from their website and buy what you want. Do you guys think all of that cash from other games magically appears there? No, its farmed. Usually by just as many farmers as in any other game. Many newer game;s its much much easier for the bots/farmers to hide from you. There are these niffty things called instances now. Drop a half dozen bots in an instances and shazam! instant wealth. (D&DO, GW, WoW, EQII.....blah, blah, blah) See no evil, hear no evil. Its still happens and its still wrong.
As you know Cryo I hold the "players" to blame more then the game. I don't want the game enacting and enforcing more rules on me because some jackass with the attention span of an ant can't get his uber weapon in 2 weeks so he feels the need to "buy" currency online. The only people its going to mess with is the legit players as they (currency sellers) will find work arounds. I made lots of money in L2. After awhile it was stupid easy. Yes, it took a LONG to get to that point but.........well so what? Just like many of the childish arguements against the game. Yes it has a hard grind.......so what? Yes, its open PvP and might die.........so what? If you read the back of the box or any review you know that going in. If you think you may not like it.....stay the f*&k away. But players dont do that. Instead they go buy currency and buy power leveling IN ALL OF THESE GAMES.
How sad is it when you can buy power leveling in WoW or Guild Wars?! Yes, Guild Wars. Thats they type of players we have in our genre. They can stay focus long enough to level a toon in Guild Wars. Its pathetic on behalf of the MMO community.
So of course L2 is going to have a problem. Its a good game but it is very difficult. Lord forbid that a player actually had to face any difficulty in game. Farmers and bots show because the players DEMAND THEIR SERVICES. Stop blaming the companies. Ask why the community demands bots/farmers in their games instead.
If no one bought the currency, bots and farmers would disappear. Like thats going to happen.
Remember this thread?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/75332
Anyway, its good to see you still around cryo
EDIT
It seems to me that NC just wants the western version of L2 (which has, lets face it, been a complete financial flop in the western world), to die. Let it get so stupid that nobody wants to ever log in again. Then NC can cut its losses and pull the plug.
If that was the case, NC would just cut it. The western market makes up a very small portion of the MMORPG population. You are correct in the sence that L2 (and most other MMOs) are in fact failing in the west. Its to bad but we might be looking at a dieing genre. If this next "3rd or whatever generation of MMO's doesn't work out its unlikely we will see many more. So far to date, the only MMO to be doing any real business in the West is Blizzard. The rest are all just dragging along. The Asian market (unfortunately) is where the action and the money are at.
They won't. I know enough people that bot their accounts since lin2mate came out (somewhen start of c1) and were using macros before that. Not a single one of them or the bots I and various others reported more then 3 month ago got banned.
Just live with the bots. NcSoft decided to not hunt them and with those 80% support staff layoffs I doubt you'll ever seem them start it. Train them, seeds their mobs, do whatever you can do to make profit off them if you don't like them.
As for NcSoft, they will just say "we are HELL BENT over it" and then do nothing.
swanny
|| Languages for gamers: http://gamerslingo.com
/where God
ERROR: Target could not be found
/target Believer
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You missed your target since Believer ignores science
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You missed your target since Believer traded all his INT for faith.
TRUST ME I KNOW, bot trains get banned all the time. Yes, some characters survive. In general, a lot of trains do get banned.
They won't. I know enough people that bot their accounts since lin2mate came out (somewhen start of c1) and were using macros before that. Not a single one of them or the bots I and various others reported more then 3 month ago got banned.
Just live with the bots. NcSoft decided to not hunt them and with those 80% support staff layoffs I doubt you'll ever seem them start it. Train them, seeds their mobs, do whatever you can do to make profit off them if you don't like them.
As for NcSoft, they will just say "we are HELL BENT over it" and then do nothing.
swanny
yes they will actly ban bots happens very rare tho and only seems to go out on Real Player`s and not any farmers...
atm Teon`s Raidboss farmers will/might; be kicked off Teon, witch will suck for everyone, else that`s not in a Major alliance...
also kicking farmer`s would make the prices sky rocket, and making more places, to hold will only help the big zerg alliance`s and making it even more impossibel for non factors to get gear...
if i should guess i think its more the fact that how the kulture is in Korea, that`s the resaon is they dont ban many bot`s or it might be a moral factor, of compasion for the farmer`s
I do understand supply and demand my friend
Regarding the private server population vs live server population influenceing the ability to control cheaters; I guess I didn't make my point clear. The bot recognition system is automated, you don't need a GM to check it out. When the player logs in with a bot, the system knows it. Many private servers simply block bots from loging in. NC servers use game guard so that FireFox can't be opened when the game is running. See the diffrence? One is useful for detecting and eliminating bot use, the other is effective for making your general subscribers think you care while you ignore the problem and keep cashing the checks from botted accounts.
Do they ban?
A L2 friend of mine has been boting for 2 years without a single ban. He has nine 76/76 nobless accounts. I'm not saying NC will not ban someone. However it seems they have certain unknown criteria for choosing who to ban. My wild guess:
- Does this account log in from a western OR asian IP?
- Did the account get reported by a lot of players?
- Did the account use bots (healers etc) in PvP/Sieges?
- Does the account holder have only a few accounts?
- Did the account respond when petitioned?
- Did the account generally abuse the privledge of boting?
I wish NC would just come out and admit, "ok ok we allow bots but don't do these things!" But instead they pretend to give a damn, hand out a few 3 month TEMPORARY bans every chronicle, punch thier time card and take a coffee break.
As for Sorrowho's comments; baning farmers would make prices skyrocket indeed. That's because the game's economy presumes a certain amount of active accounts are aquiring materials. In Korea this is not a problem, in America we fall way short on server population. Thats where the farmers come in. If real people played then NC would not need farmers for the games economy to function. Or, NC could reconfigure the game to work with a smaller player population, but that would require development investment. Something NC is not willing to do for the western port of the game. It's not a culture diffrence, and it's not compassion (corporate compassion, lol). It's economics, pure and simple. Also I would like to note that farmers make it easy for NC to adjust the planed economy. Too many SoM's on the market? Ban a few farmer accounts with warehouses full of SoM's (is the farmer going to complain? I don't think so). Economy fixed, time for another coffee break. I will also note that when NC does its annual report to shareholders, the shareholder dosen't care if its a farmer or a player. All that matters is that subscriptions and revenue are up. So a farmer account reassures your board of directors just as well as a player account does.
As for me, I'm going to start cheating and do it untill I am banned. Then I'm going to play a game made by a company that isn't so pathetic. I have 18 months of losses to recoupe. My time is just as valuable as any guy who cheats. If I may make an analogy; it turned out I was playing poker with a table full of cheaters. They took my money, the house got it's cut and told me to hit the road if I'm complaining about it. This is a senario I can not forgive. RIP L2, sorry it had to end this way.
I just activated my L2 account last month as a "temp" until WHO is realeased. When I use to play back in prelude the biggest problem was the chinese farmers. Now I see groups of program-run bots all over the place. It makes me sad, at least "farmers" were live players that you could kill or make friends with. However, the new type of farmers has made me reconsider the activation and I may go back to DAOC.
Good suggestions though, I just don't think that NC cares enough to do anything about it. It is sad really, L2 has more potential than any other game out there (imho).
NC doesnt care about bots. Bots are paying customers too.
The sad thing is that NC doesnt even take bots into consideration when they plan events. Take the pollen fiasco, we all liked it because we made a few extra million. Have you seen how many pollen the bots have for sale? 3500 pollens for 50,000 adena each , yea thats really fair.
well...............how else are you gonna do it? You can't realistically sort out the farmers from the players. Don't worry about the bots (yeah its tough to say) worry about what you are getting out of it. Bots or not, someone will always outdo you.
This is how NC set up their events. They are a chance to make extra money. Just take advantage of it. I didn't get a chance to play in this event, but they had one just like it a few months back, its lots of extra cash.....I didn't have a problem with the money I made.
Go read cryomatrix's post about making cash, you can get by in L2 without spending a whole lot for a long time in the game if you know what you are doing. IF.............
When you guys get your panties in a bunch over the bots you are going to have a hard time in any MMO. They all have them.