I don't get that attitude?! Why is it to be expected that a product(which many are paying for and paid for early on with preordering) is tolerable as incomplete? What other product or service do you pay for and feel it's ok if it doesn't live up to it's expectations and promised performance? That's crazy.
Beta testing and stress testing are supposed to reveal flaws so a game can be released complete. Obviously the testing was horrid or the developers knowingly released an unfinished product, neither of which is acceptable.
Demand a refund and then maybe in a month or 2 try it again if they offer a free trial. They have already squandered the trust factor in order to expect payment in advance.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Ulujain Who are you talking to Jorev? Attribute your posts and who you're replying to please; it looks like you're replying to me there.
I was responding to your post but directing my statement to everyone in general because I have heard that sentiment from others and it is because of such complacency that game developers feel comfortable releasing unfinished product
We have a right to expect and demand completely polished product for release before a game developer sees 1 cent of our monies. This isn't 1999 when EQ1 dominated the industry with an essential monopoly. There is enough competition now where we don't have to settle for less, and if less means playing single box games until a quality MMOG is released, then so be it. Don't reward slack game developers by caving in. It's akin to staying in a bad relationship because you fear being alone.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by Ordie Forgive me, Jorev, but you aren't really being pragmatic; they already have your money, asking for a refund when you are intending to try it again in two weeks *because you are quite sure that in two weeks most issues will be solved* (since if you weren't, you wouldn't be thinking of trying it again in 2 weeks time) is simply making everything more difficult for both you and the developers. It's the same end-result, with a lot of needless steps in between.You are assuming that everything will be fixed in 2 weeks. Logically, if they have your money already, there is no urgency involved in fixing the game. They have stated they are not trying to attract more new players atm because they can't handle the ones they currently have. But you see, they are arrogant in the sense they presume they have paying customers already, even though the product is far from complete. Demanding refunds would show them to not take you for granted.
I understand your point quite well, Jorev - I never said anything against it. My post was based on the assumption that after X weeks had passed, you would have bought the game again to test its state. In that case, I would consider said behaviour to be quite foolish, since it would have the same result. However, I do understand, and accept, that someone who does not yet own the game would choose to wait X weeks until he could see if the server's lag etc had been improved before buying the game.
Jorev what you fail to understand is that it's obvious in this case that the devs are working their tails off. The other thing you fail to understand with your instant gratification mindset is that some things are worth spending a little cash on. It's not even a little cash.
If we only buy games that cater to your crowd of big company developers, then we'll always get crap for games. Games that look for the biggest payoff by giving people everything they want with a shiny wrapper. How many more WoW's can we take.
Some of us want direct PvP with a skill based system and a different combat system. We want the challenge of knowing that the average player will lose half the time and we want a game where we know the devs care about the game for the game's sake and not just for the last dollar they can squeeze out of a lousy player that wouldn't play a game they'd lose at.
If there was a choice between this game and a game just like it without the bugs then I'd play the bugless game but there's not.
Originally posted by Jorev Originally posted by Ulujain Who are you talking to Jorev? Attribute your posts and who you're replying to please; it looks like you're replying to me there.I was responding to your post but directing my statement to everyone in general because I have heard that sentiment from others and it is because of such complacency that game developers feel comfortable releasing unfinished product
WTF are you talking about? What sentiment? I merely mentioned that I'd won a free account and had so far received squat.
I've actually been quite cynical about this game in other posts I've made in this particular forum.
But, dude, you've gone so far off at a tangent you're in another solar system. But then again, we all know that, don't we?
I actually haven't heard of any offers of final-release keys. Are you sure you didn't get a test account instead - in which case it'd be expired now. Feel free to prove me wrong, just attempting to get things right.
WTF are you talking about? What sentiment? I merely mentioned that I'd won a free account and had so far received squat.
I've actually been quite cynical about this game in other posts I've made in this particular forum.
But, dude, you've gone so far off at a tangent you're in another solar system. But then again, we all know that, don't we?
I was crystal clear about referencing what sentiment I was referring to.
You said: "Game looks like it has major teething problems though, which is to be expected."
That is a falsehood that slack game developers would have you believe. It should not be expected.
I know you have been honestly critical about RV, I am not trying to bash you, just pointing out that we gamers should expect and demand a polished product. I don't know of any other product or service that consumers tolerate as incomplete when it is sold to them.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by asdar Jorev what you fail to understand is that it's obvious in this case that the devs are working their tails off. The other thing you fail to understand with your instant gratification mindset is that some things are worth spending a little cash on. It's not even a little cash. If we only buy games that cater to your crowd of big company developers, then we'll always get crap for games. Games that look for the biggest payoff by giving people everything they want with a shiny wrapper. How many more WoW's can we take. Some of us want direct PvP with a skill based system and a different combat system. We want the challenge of knowing that the average player will lose half the time and we want a game where we know the devs care about the game for the game's sake and not just for the last dollar they can squeeze out of a lousy player that wouldn't play a game they'd lose at. If there was a choice between this game and a game just like it without the bugs then I'd play the bugless game but there's not.
What you fail to understand is that YOU don't know how hard the developers are actually working towards polishing the game, unless you are an actual employee in which case you should come out and say so. The fact that the game has been released in the shoddy condition it is in, suggests otherwise.
Expecting a complete product when billed for it is hardly an instant gratification mindset. It's called not getting ripped off.
The Verm is designed to squeeze every last dollar out of those who lack self control and who slowly get sucked into the mindset of spending more to justify the previous purchase and time spent on this game. Players asked for a limit to be set and RedBedlam staff agreed, but to this day have yet to announce what that limit will be. A flat subscription rate is the honest way of charging for a MMOG.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
As per direct quotation, "It [the size of the dev team] is not an excuse - it's an explanation."
Of course we should expect a finished product. Is RV finished? No. But in my opinion, we have to think beyond the mindset to which we are used to, and analyse this particular case under its quite-particular characteristics. Of course - and I fully agree with you on that, Jorev - that we must not bow down to money-leeching companies when they attempt to buy us off with unfinished products. However, neither must we bow down to companies who offer no inovation, no potential; companies who stick us in a mindless "kill W of X and take item Y to person Z" quest sequence. When a company offers us a dream - which being even a dream right now, has quite the potential to become true, unlike most "dreams" - we must take the chance. We must do our best to support it - for the ideal and for the concept. If the only we can support that is by choosing it above a complete game, then So Be It. It is a matter of priorities, and I know where mine lie in this particular matter.
This would be a hundred times bigger issue if there was a monthly fee for this game...as it is who cares if they released it a little early...all this bitching and moaning is going to look pretty silly in a month if they straighten things out.
Originally posted by elitwebb Originally posted by arvainis so I did not put any effort into it
So tell me, what kind of effort would you have put into it if you thought it would make it? I assume you mean you would spend time coding with RB. Nice try making yourself sound more important than you really are.
Never tried to make myself sound inportant nor did I ever say I was a coder. I put no effort into the community and deleted my Beta acceptance email. Instead I put my effort into helping the GnH community grow.
As to the poster who lumped me into the "GnH insult RV crowd" that's really funny. Your communtiy manager came to our website and publically apologized for your behavior on these forums and those of you who went to the GnH forums to stir up trouble. I know it was just a few of you and there are those types in every MMO out there but still from what I saw the ones from RV were worse then anything from the GnH community.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Heres how I would sum it up at the moment: it has alot of potential. The game gives me that early SWG vibe where there wasn't much content at that moment but you get the feeling down the road that this game could be great due to the fact the community steers the game in the direction they want by building the game world as they see fit. In theory this could be a really great sandbox game.
Heres what worries me, I've been following this game since NGE in SWG since I perfer sandbox mmo's and lets face it EVE is not for everyone. I constantly saw talk of instabilities and client crashes and then in the last couple weeks people claimed that those issues were being addressed and the game was now playable. Well I went ahead and purchased the game a couple days ago and my experience went like this.
First to simply get the client to run the updater you have to close everything that is running on your system except the firewall(at least I did) this included virus scan my pinacle profiler which allows me to use my xbox 360 controller in all games including mmo's and any spyware scanning software you have. Now with all that off I could finally run the updates on client no problems. Then I try to run the game and the client shuts down repeatedly so I notice on the site that there is a small directx 9 program to install, so even though I have directx 9 I download it. Now the game client runs. When I get into the game its pretty empty, I see maybe 20 people on the Roman side logged in which is fine its new and I understand how mmo's grow. Then the lag waves start, and I'm not talking a slight pause, you can still move but anything you click anything you type any command you issue does not register and these waves go in 5 minute periods sometimes. Then the client crashes begin, now i understand its new and they happen but I had 15 client crashes in two days. Then the worst of all of the two days I've had my account over half the time I couldn't log in because it couldn't connect to server.
So I simply requested a refund which I hear they give because they understand how things are at the moment. Heres why I won't wait it out, they currently have in the area of maybe 5000 registered users and the server has little to no stability, how will they allow this player based world to develop when the server can't even handle the smallest amount of traffic. One task you have to do is build a wood pile to show you how to construct things. Should be simple and the commands are but... I worked on a wood pile for 2 hours and was thirty percent finished when the server went down, I finally get back in a few hours later only to find my wood pile has collapsed and I have to start over.
I understand that things will improve and from what i have heard before release during closed beta the stability and lag was much less of a issue, but thats just it no matter how much a company cares and trys to make things right if the server can't handle the traffic it can't handle the traffic thats hardware issues that I'm not sure the company has the resources to handle.
The upside is the community is really good and helpful and like I said it could really be a great game if they are able to fix the issues but as is its still not what I would consider playable, as I sit here typing the server is down, I decided to try log in one more time and give it another shot before sending my refund request and its a no go.
My final summation would be this, give it six months check in on these and the Roma Victor forums and see the progress and maybe they will be able to get to a point the server can handle any sort of load as of now its a wait and see and no more.
Comments
I don't get that attitude?! Why is it to be expected that a product(which many are paying for and paid for early on with preordering) is tolerable as incomplete? What other product or service do you pay for and feel it's ok if it doesn't live up to it's expectations and promised performance? That's crazy.
Beta testing and stress testing are supposed to reveal flaws so a game can be released complete. Obviously the testing was horrid or the developers knowingly released an unfinished product, neither of which is acceptable.
Demand a refund and then maybe in a month or 2 try it again if they offer a free trial. They have already squandered the trust factor in order to expect payment in advance.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Who are you talking to Jorev? Attribute your posts and who you're replying to please; it looks like you're replying to me there.
I was responding to your post but directing my statement to everyone in general because I have heard that sentiment from others and it is because of such complacency that game developers feel comfortable releasing unfinished product
We have a right to expect and demand completely polished product for release before a game developer sees 1 cent of our monies. This isn't 1999 when EQ1 dominated the industry with an essential monopoly. There is enough competition now where we don't have to settle for less, and if less means playing single box games until a quality MMOG is released, then so be it. Don't reward slack game developers by caving in. It's akin to staying in a bad relationship because you fear being alone.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I understand your point quite well, Jorev - I never said anything against it. My post was based on the assumption that after X weeks had passed, you would have bought the game again to test its state. In that case, I would consider said behaviour to be quite foolish, since it would have the same result. However, I do understand, and accept, that someone who does not yet own the game would choose to wait X weeks until he could see if the server's lag etc had been improved before buying the game.
- Starcius
Jorev what you fail to understand is that it's obvious in this case that the devs are working their tails off. The other thing you fail to understand with your instant gratification mindset is that some things are worth spending a little cash on. It's not even a little cash.
If we only buy games that cater to your crowd of big company developers, then we'll always get crap for games. Games that look for the biggest payoff by giving people everything they want with a shiny wrapper. How many more WoW's can we take.
Some of us want direct PvP with a skill based system and a different combat system. We want the challenge of knowing that the average player will lose half the time and we want a game where we know the devs care about the game for the game's sake and not just for the last dollar they can squeeze out of a lousy player that wouldn't play a game they'd lose at.
If there was a choice between this game and a game just like it without the bugs then I'd play the bugless game but there's not.
Asdar
WTF are you talking about? What sentiment? I merely mentioned that I'd won a free account and had so far received squat.
I've actually been quite cynical about this game in other posts I've made in this particular forum.
But, dude, you've gone so far off at a tangent you're in another solar system. But then again, we all know that, don't we?
I actually haven't heard of any offers of final-release keys. Are you sure you didn't get a test account instead - in which case it'd be expired now. Feel free to prove me wrong, just attempting to get things right.
- Starcius
I've actually been quite cynical about this game in other posts I've made in this particular forum.
But, dude, you've gone so far off at a tangent you're in another solar system. But then again, we all know that, don't we?
I was crystal clear about referencing what sentiment I was referring to.
You said: "Game looks like it has major teething problems though, which is to be expected."
That is a falsehood that slack game developers would have you believe. It should not be expected.
I know you have been honestly critical about RV, I am not trying to bash you, just pointing out that we gamers should expect and demand a polished product. I don't know of any other product or service that consumers tolerate as incomplete when it is sold to them.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
What you fail to understand is that YOU don't know how hard the developers are actually working towards polishing the game, unless you are an actual employee in which case you should come out and say so. The fact that the game has been released in the shoddy condition it is in, suggests otherwise.
Expecting a complete product when billed for it is hardly an instant gratification mindset. It's called not getting ripped off.
The Verm is designed to squeeze every last dollar out of those who lack self control and who slowly get sucked into the mindset of spending more to justify the previous purchase and time spent on this game. Players asked for a limit to be set and RedBedlam staff agreed, but to this day have yet to announce what that limit will be. A flat subscription rate is the honest way of charging for a MMOG.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
As per direct quotation, "It [the size of the dev team] is not an excuse - it's an explanation."
Of course we should expect a finished product. Is RV finished? No. But in my opinion, we have to think beyond the mindset to which we are used to, and analyse this particular case under its quite-particular characteristics. Of course - and I fully agree with you on that, Jorev - that we must not bow down to money-leeching companies when they attempt to buy us off with unfinished products. However, neither must we bow down to companies who offer no inovation, no potential; companies who stick us in a mindless "kill W of X and take item Y to person Z" quest sequence. When a company offers us a dream - which being even a dream right now, has quite the potential to become true, unlike most "dreams" - we must take the chance. We must do our best to support it - for the ideal and for the concept. If the only we can support that is by choosing it above a complete game, then So Be It. It is a matter of priorities, and I know where mine lie in this particular matter.
- Starcius
my first double
Never tried to make myself sound inportant nor did I ever say I was a coder. I put no effort into the community and deleted my Beta acceptance email. Instead I put my effort into helping the GnH community grow.
As to the poster who lumped me into the "GnH insult RV crowd" that's really funny. Your communtiy manager came to our website and publically apologized for your behavior on these forums and those of you who went to the GnH forums to stir up trouble. I know it was just a few of you and there are those types in every MMO out there but still from what I saw the ones from RV were worse then anything from the GnH community.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Heres what worries me, I've been following this game since NGE in SWG since I perfer sandbox mmo's and lets face it EVE is not for everyone. I constantly saw talk of instabilities and client crashes and then in the last couple weeks people claimed that those issues were being addressed and the game was now playable. Well I went ahead and purchased the game a couple days ago and my experience went like this.
First to simply get the client to run the updater you have to close everything that is running on your system except the firewall(at least I did) this included virus scan my pinacle profiler which allows me to use my xbox 360 controller in all games including mmo's and any spyware scanning software you have. Now with all that off I could finally run the updates on client no problems. Then I try to run the game and the client shuts down repeatedly so I notice on the site that there is a small directx 9 program to install, so even though I have directx 9 I download it. Now the game client runs. When I get into the game its pretty empty, I see maybe 20 people on the Roman side logged in which is fine its new and I understand how mmo's grow. Then the lag waves start, and I'm not talking a slight pause, you can still move but anything you click anything you type any command you issue does not register and these waves go in 5 minute periods sometimes. Then the client crashes begin, now i understand its new and they happen but I had 15 client crashes in two days. Then the worst of all of the two days I've had my account over half the time I couldn't log in because it couldn't connect to server.
So I simply requested a refund which I hear they give because they understand how things are at the moment. Heres why I won't wait it out, they currently have in the area of maybe 5000 registered users and the server has little to no stability, how will they allow this player based world to develop when the server can't even handle the smallest amount of traffic. One task you have to do is build a wood pile to show you how to construct things. Should be simple and the commands are but... I worked on a wood pile for 2 hours and was thirty percent finished when the server went down, I finally get back in a few hours later only to find my wood pile has collapsed and I have to start over.
I understand that things will improve and from what i have heard before release during closed beta the stability and lag was much less of a issue, but thats just it no matter how much a company cares and trys to make things right if the server can't handle the traffic it can't handle the traffic thats hardware issues that I'm not sure the company has the resources to handle.
The upside is the community is really good and helpful and like I said it could really be a great game if they are able to fix the issues but as is its still not what I would consider playable, as I sit here typing the server is down, I decided to try log in one more time and give it another shot before sending my refund request and its a no go.
My final summation would be this, give it six months check in on these and the Roma Victor forums and see the progress and maybe they will be able to get to a point the server can handle any sort of load as of now its a wait and see and no more.
Peace
As far as the server technology being powerfull enough to handle RV......It is
If they buy AM2 servers and use ring0 virtualization they could build a server as powerfull as they could possibly want.
The company also might be using Xeon's, which don't handle a heavy server load nearly as well as an Opteron.