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Software companies have reduced the quality of MMORPG's

VagelispVagelisp Member UncommonPosts: 448

A new era of online entertainment has grown extremely fast in the last few years.
All of us remember our first steps in our first mmorpg game, trying to figure out how to advance, prosper and put our unique mark in a Virtual World.
Many things have changed in these last years. From the evolution of the first mmo's (I will not mention any companies or game titles in this article) many software companies understood that this kind of stuff (they don't even know or care what an mmorpg is anyway) brings cash and so they begun their "honest" effort to attract as many players' money from all around the globe into their bank accounts.
The formula is very simple and works most of the time...
"At first we must get a really good 3d engine (maybe we already have our own), some artists, a few programmers, and a easy to read phantasy book. Don't worry about money. Money to start is always available from our single player game sales. And don't even worry about finding clever Game Designers and ideas. We must focus in graphics and put as many people's pixels, bytes and emotions as possible in our servers.
Anyway the people that will play our new masterpiece will range from 14 to 18 years old. They don't have previous mmo experience and they just want to gain levels, kill and earn "gold", "adenas", "platinums" or carry and maybe trade as many "stones" of goods.
We shall start with a few days free trial and then we shall charge people on a monthly basis or even better offer them the opportunity to play for free and charge them only for expancions, advanced characters and unique items.
If we can attract to many people for about a few months, we shall make a lot of cash, leave them alone with their ideas and bug problems and we shall create a new mmo or even better take the cash and forget about them.
Ahh i forgot to mention that we should go to E3 with a cool graphics demo of our product and make all of them talk about us. Maybe put some half naked women at the show (or maybe naked?) carrying Axes and war maces or even better some katanas too? Asia has many people that already play mmos and they will want to play ours too."

All these thoughts sound to me like the 90 percent of ideas a software house has about people and mmos, but that is what has really happened during the last years. Just from almost nowhere we saw about 30 or more new mmos come to life that try to make us believe that they are what we really wanted to play in our free time.
They are mostly copying one another with no new ideas and just repeating the same formula of kill and advance with no other important options that will make us want to rush home after work and spend a good amount of time on them, without using leveling services, macroing and using bots overnight.
Many companies claim that they have millions of people that enjoy their creations trying to prove that they have the best mmo around.If so why all of them offer about 15 days free game trial and why they don't give us real statistics about how many people are playing live in their servers at a specific time? A web page may have thousands of users registerd but how many people are viewing it at the same time?
An MMORPG is not just putting a few millions of people in some server farms and call it that. If this is true then internet is the best MMORPG since it has billions of people communicating with their ideas and emotions.
MMORPG is not just a leveling environment of players trying to win through PVE or PVP. If this is true then you can just well log in any "simple" online game and make parties with your friends and believe me this works very well.
In my opinion a true MMORPG must follow certain rules and characteristics that will make it woth playing and distinguish it from "regular" online games:
1. Dynamic economy. I sell much it becomes cheaper. I buy much it becomes expencive even from npc's.
2 . House placing system. I want to put my house almost anywhere i like and store what i like.No hotels please.they smell bad even for ogres.
3. Dynamic Storyline which can be altered by any player. We like to be able to advance through a dynamic politics environment and alter the balance of the leading factions that rule the virtual world.
4. Non combat professions. Like Engineers, cooks, Drivers etc.
5. PVP. Not just between Guilds or Factions .How many times did you want to crash a guy's head because he just keeps saying: "Hey i saw it first! Why did you take my kill?" or just because you don't like his attitude?
PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.

6. No Instance servers or Dungeons. I want to see what other people do in a quest and maybe help them or learn from them. If the world in which we play creates instances of areas and dungeons all the time then it is not an MMORPG.
7. Multiple Class and Skill paths. I may change my mind and want to be something between a warrior and a mage and maybe get some skills from thief and assasin or i may want to start all over again.
8. Able to solo advancement. Many people like to play alone. First they advance and then join a party or faction of their choice. Messages like "You can't enter this area without a group of 4 players" just don't work and destroy the fiction of the world.
9. Full avatar customization. Many mmos when you create your avatar they just let you choose between a few characters. No hair color , no height no weight, no nose job, just a few ready sprites for you to choose while on the other hand many single player player RPG's let you choose the width of your beard and the tilt of your eyebrows.
and last but not least
10. No internet surf and Cow levels. All hints and tips to finish a quest must be found in the game and not just spreaded by the people who wrote the game in a popular web site that makes us read first for a few hours and Alt + tab to find out what to do next. This complexity and secrecy of quests shows lack of good ideas in quests and of course and it is one step closer to canceling our accounts.
Thank you very much for reading. Maybe we as players that enjoy new ideas can raise the standard of the upcoming releases of MMORPGs and maybe create our new "ESRB" like rating for them. An MMORPG Rating, to make sure that what they make is what they should make and even better what they make is what we want and expect.
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Comments

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182


    Companies have not reduced the quality of MMORPG's. theychanged the mmorpg's. you can't simply make storyline content for only one person. thats not the way to get players, everybody wants to enjoy new storyline content. not just one or two high level characters.

    open pvp is diffrent then the current faction vs faction pvp that we see in todays mmorpg's. I personally prefer the Faction Vs Faction type. it gives a reason to pvp, and gives a us and them feeling. its a lot better then to PK just because he said bad words to me.

    Instanced dungeons are in my opinion a good thing, but this is personal for everybody. I really like the idea of having dungeon run as some sort of adventure, with events happening inside. That doesn't exist in non-instanced dungeons. telling pretty stories of how you met a group of people and together you travelled further inside to slay monsters don't exist. what really happens are multiple groups of people fighting over hunting spots, killsteal and other kinds of griefing.


    full avatar customization? You ever seen a lot of people gather in SWG? there is your answer.

    multiple skill system often result in imbalance, and a lot of unbalanced characters. it also makes grouping more difficult. "hey what level are you? "lvl 33" "Oh good, we're around the same level, want to group?"

    or "Hey want to group? what are your stats?" "23 in swordmanship, 21 in club fighting, 38 in magic, 20 in shield, 40 in hand to hand combat, 10 in healing,35 in fie magic .....etc...and you?"

    see where I'm going to?


    anyway, todays MMORPG's focus more on an experience made for you then to just drop you in a world with no idea what to do.




  • OwynOwyn Member Posts: 337
    Companies make the sort of games we buy.  If we repeatedly buy the same old stuff, rehashed, then how can we expect anything but the same old stuff to be churned out?

    1.  Dynamic Economy: People constantly ask for this, but the average gamer would scream bloody murder if it was actually implemented.

    2.  House Placement System: The last games to add this were Shadowbane, ATITD, and Eve Online.  Of the three, only Eve has hit decent levels of success, and that's fairly recent.  If we don't play the games that have had a feature before, don't expect to see it tried again right away.

    3.  Dynamic Storyline: It's all good to want a dynamic story; but are you willing to pay $50 a month to play, so that they can have a live content team for each and every server?  Without seperate content teams per server, players affecting the storyline is virtually impossible.

    4.  Non Combat Professions:  If 2% of your players are interested in non-combat professions, and 98% are interested in combat ones, what percent of the content do you think is going to be geared for each group?

    5.  PvP: I love full pvp games.  But again, they tend to be lower population, still (although the numbers are growing).  If we won't play them, the devs won't build them.

    6.  Instances: Agree.  But then, it's generally agreed that games with "all instancing all the time" are ORPGs or MMOGs, not MMORPGs.

    8.  Soloing: Coming more and more.  WOW showed that players like a game where soloing is very viable, so I think we'll see more in the future.

    9.  Avatars: Disagree.  If I have a choice between looking a bit like others on my screen, but having GREAT gameplay, or having OK gameplay but REALLY unique looks, I'll take the great gameplay, thanks!  ;)  Remember, they can make characters very changeable right now, but it increases expenses for the art a great deal.  That money has to come from somewhere.

    10.  No internet: Good luck. ;)  This one is OUR fault, not the devs'.  If you don't want to use quest hints, don't peek.  ;)  But stopping sites from posting quest and game info is like asking press not to follow celebrities around taking pictures.  You can ask; but it ain't going to happen.


    Owyn
    Commander, Defenders of Order
    http://www.defendersoforder.com

  • fredrik1fredrik1 Member Posts: 144

    To make a mmorpg success,

    First select a known brand, make it Starwars, Warcraft, Final Fantasy... etc,
    then make some fancy grafics with the latest technology available (extremly important).

    copy the ruleset from an existing mmorpg which has lots of subscribers, make small changes and market them as "Groundbreaking" or "Inovative".

    have fun.. you made yourself a mmorpg.

    of course it's the millions of players that would play these games fault that they work, not the developers. If more people would start playing mmorpgs that are new and inovative this would soon change. However I can't see this changing in a long time if ever.

    image

  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159


    Originally posted by Owyn
    Companies make the sort of games we buy.  If we repeatedly buy the same old stuff, rehashed, then how can we expect anything but the same old stuff to be churned out?

    I hardly buy any of it anymore.  Just play lots of trials and the like.  Lot of good that's done.  There's always a market for the rehashing of the ProgressQuest formula, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for anything new, also.  Just because lots of people bought pac-man doesn't mean no one wanted to risk making space invaders.


    1.  Dynamic Economy: People constantly ask for this, but the average gamer would scream bloody murder if it was actually implemented.

    I think that depends on how well it were implemented.  There's always ways of taking smaller steps, like a partially dynamic economy.  One that fluctuates within controlled limits, so that the devs always have the ultimate control to keep it reasonable.  Course, then that depends on what the devs consider reasonable.


    2.  House Placement System: The last games to add this were Shadowbane, ATITD, and Eve Online.  Of the three, only Eve has hit decent levels of success, and that's fairly recent.  If we don't play the games that have had a feature before, don't expect to see it tried again right away.

    Don't forget SWG and DAOC, which offer house placement without instancing, but in opposite ways.  There are various ways of going about that, too.



    3.  Dynamic Storyline: It's all good to want a dynamic story; but are you willing to pay $50 a month to play, so that they can have a live content team for each and every server?  Without seperate content teams per server, players affecting the storyline is virtually impossible.

    I think it should be feasible to create an engine to handle such a thing.  A ruleset which can branch in a variety of preprogrammed ways, so that the gameworld can evolve, and can do so differently on each server.  Of course, this means that the dynamic content will not be handcrafted and unique, but I think it could still be a huge improvement.




    4.  Non Combat Professions:  If 2% of your players are interested in non-combat professions, and 98% are interested in combat ones, what percent of the content do you think is going to be geared for each group?

    Looking at games like SWG and DAOC, I think 2% is very low.  Lots of players, at the very least, dabble in crafting. 

    It's not just about that percentage though.  In games that emphasize crafting, the crafting also has a major effect even on the players that don't craft themselves, and it effects the feel of the gameworld.  It adds a sense of depth and diversity, so that those who choose to hack&slash all day are making that choice, rather than doing all there is to do.  So, indirectly, crafting can even improve a hack&slash grind, even for those who are only interested in that.



    5.  PvP: I love full pvp games.  But again, they tend to be lower population, still (although the numbers are growing).  If we won't play them, the devs won't build them.

    Eh, this issue can go all different ways, and there's all sorts of PVP, and all sorts of uncompromising preferences.  No comment, here.  Except my 2c, that I prefer tightly reined faction based PVP, ala DAOC :p


    6.  Instances: Agree.  But then, it's generally agreed that games with "all instancing all the time" are ORPGs or MMOGs, not MMORPGs.

    Agree here, too.



    8.  Soloing: Coming more and more.  WOW showed that players like a game where soloing is very viable, so I think we'll see more in the future.

    Already seeing tons of that, but I have to say, I think it's already gone too far.  I don't think forced grouping is ideal, but that socializing should be pushed a bit harder.  Encouraged, streamlined, accomadated, made easy enough and interesting enough, so that even socially retarded basement gremlins can enjoy eachother's company.  My ideas on that would be a long post in itself, if not a small novel.



    9.  Avatars: Disagree.  If I have a choice between looking a bit like others on my screen, but having GREAT gameplay, or having OK gameplay but REALLY unique looks, I'll take the great gameplay, thanks!  ;)  Remember, they can make characters very changeable right now, but it increases expenses for the art a great deal.  That money has to come from somewhere.

    IMHO, customization is vital.  It's a major element of the social appeal in these games, to have a sense of identity within the game.  To be able to create oneself, personalize one's appearance.   To me, being cookie cutter means that I'd prefer playing a single-player game.

    It's not a trade-off in gameplay, usually, but a trade-off in avatar graphics, though.  Customization usually means less detail, quantity over quality, when it comes to choices in faces, clothing, colors, etc.  Too many MMOs have avatars that make for great screenshots, but the lack of individuality weakens gameplay.



    10.  No internet: Good luck. ;)  This one is OUR fault, not the devs'.  If you don't want to use quest hints, don't peek.  ;)  But stopping sites from posting quest and game info is like asking press not to follow celebrities around taking pictures.  You can ask; but it ain't going to happen.
    Yeah... no comment here :p

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • vendrisvendris Member Posts: 246
    Your post seems to have very little to do with the quality of MMOs.  You are giving a list of features that you think an MMO should have, and then saying that MMOs that don't have those features are poor quality.  I disagree.  City of Villains and Guildwars are two games I can name off the top of my head, that do not have many of the features you are looking for.  I don't think any honest person would say CoV or Guildwars are poor quality games, even if he or she didn't personally enjoy the games.

    There is a big difference between a poor quality game, and a game that simply does not have the features I personally want in a game.



  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by vendris
    I don't think any honest person would say CoV or Guildwars are poor quality games, even if he or she didn't personally enjoy the games.

    Yet that's what 85% of the "X sucks" posts boil down to.



  • Originally posted by Vagelisp
    dasda


    PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.




      To be able to kill any player you dislike involves a TYPE of PvP. Known as FFA PvP. (Free For All PvP). Every single mmorpg that has tried this has failed miserably. FFA PvP has been proven to not work.

      And... what is YOUR solution? You posted what you see is the problem. Now post your ideas on possible SOLUTIONS to this problem.

    BTW... obviously you are talking about Ultima Online. Do more research... it was more than simply "players threatening to cancel their accounts after getting PK'd". Players really WERE DOING IT! Raph Kosteer, aka Designer Dragon went into extreem detail. On how 1 full time PKer can, will, and does, drive away on avarage 20 players. Who should the game company aim for? The 1 player or the 20 players? UO started to lose THOUSANDS of customers. After they did something about their FFA PvP the drop slowed, and stopped.

      Here is more about FFA PvP... it does not matter how uber you are, you will get killed, over and over. All the other players have to do is wait for you to get low on health from fighting NPCs, then they kill you, no matter if you normally have 10,000 health and they normally have 500 health. Now go play on a WoW PvP server for a few months from level 1 to as high as you can make it! You will come back here crying like a little girl. WoW PvP currently is the hardest hard core PvP in mmorpgs. (AO, and DAoC are very close also.) In WoW other players can hunt your crying baby self down anywhere in the game world. Even chase after you into any building, dungeon, even the starting areas! And chain kill you until you are forced to log off and stop playing for the night.
  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by xplororor
    After they did something about their FFA PvP the drop slowed, and stopped. 

    They have documentation stating clearly that on the release of Trammel, their subscribership quadrupled.

    In the end, the money is in the PvE game.

    PvP has a place...a strong, secure place. But more players will come to games of evolving characters, roleplaying games, in PvE settings than in PvP settings.

  • EpeenEpeen Member UncommonPosts: 95


    Originally posted by xplororor

    Originally posted by Vagelisp
    dasda


    PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.






      Here is more about FFA PvP... it does not matter how uber you are, you will get killed, over and over. All the other players have to do is wait for you to get low on health from fighting NPCs, then they kill you, no matter if you normally have 10,000 health and they normally have 500 health. Now go play on a WoW PvP server for a few months from level 1 to as high as you can make it! You will come back here crying like a little girl. WoW PvP currently is the hardest hard core PvP in mmorpgs. (AO, and DAoC are very close also.) In WoW other players can hunt your crying baby self down anywhere in the game world. Even chase after you into any building, dungeon, even the starting areas! And chain kill you until you are forced to log off and stop playing for the night.


    Im sorry but im going to have to disagree withyou about WoW being the most hard core pvp in mmorpgs. It is easy to level to 60 in a PvP server, hell I did it and thousands of others did also.  You can easily go from instance to instance to get to 60 and not see a single Ally/Horde. If anything, WoW's world PvP is lackluster.
  • ShazzelShazzel Member Posts: 472

    WoW's world pvp while lackluster, the battlegrounds can be fun. I just hate the fact a PVP'er must spends months to get geared up in pvp, while the PVE player can raid MC/BWL once a week for 4 hours and have phatty loots.

    PVP - 12-15 hours a day required, every day.

    PVE - 6-8 hours a week. End up with better items than pvp depending on which class. Far better if in AQ.

  • chungalungchungalung Member Posts: 17

    PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.


    before a player joins a game, how about placing a warning saying that this mmo contains full pvp meaning that non-consensual pvp(where u are forced into pvp) may happen anywhere, anytime so if you happen to get humiliatingly and/or overwhelmingly player killed, don't get upset.. it's a game.




    it's a sad thing that the majority of mmo gamers takes online gaming way too seriously. i often get player killed myself and have not complained a bit.


  • Originally posted by Epeen



    Im sorry but im going to have to disagree withyou about WoW being the most hard core pvp in mmorpgs. It is easy to level to 60 in a PvP server, hell I did it and thousands of others did also.  You can easily go from instance to instance to get to 60 and not see a single Ally/Horde. If anything, WoW's world PvP is lackluster.



     
    You do have an intresting tactic. To jump from instance to instance. To do instances only, and that's it. That does work to a point. But you still run the risk of getting killed by other players while traveling to, from, and inbetween each instance. I disagree with you that it is easily done. Can it be done on a PvP server? Yes, but not easily. And how come you are not trying to hunt down other players if you were on a PvP server?   You shouldn't be hiding in instances.

     On a PvP server, try going into the Deadmines instance? Try going into Stockades instance as Horde. (I've seen it successfully done by some uber-brave Horde players.)

    On PvP servers you have to worry about other players, as well as NPCs. If it is one's first time playing WoW, and they choose a PvP server, it will be brutal, because they are also exploring the game map as well. If one already knows ahead of time whrere things are - the exact entrace to an instance, etc... like in your case - they they can run a beeline to the instance, and worry far less, because they know the game map ahead of time.
  • Berserk3rBerserk3r Member Posts: 11
    There are definitely a lot of carebears in this thread that have never played a real MMORPG.  One with freedom and the thought of being able to gain it all or lose everything.  You're all just another number.  You all follow the same path as everyone else.  You go run your little instanced dungeons so you can get "phat lewt".  You all make fun of games like EverQuest, even though WoW is the ultimate "phat lewt" game.  You people think Battlegrounds is PvP.  *chuckles*

    I mean, there is just no getting to you people.  The OP of this thread knows what he's talking about.  He wants a game that offers you real choices.  He doesn't want to be another piece of grain, doing the same old quests that everyone else has done.  He wants to be able to rule an empire, and mix and match skills to play whatever character he feels like playing.  He doesn't want to be limited to a silly class, and if you think talents make you special in WoW, please feel free to slash yourself.

    And you can't tell me that FFA PvP has never worked, because UO was doing just fine.  So what about Trammel.  Trammel just proves the fact that 90% of MMORPGers are just a bunch of noobs, who don't care about making their own mark in the world.  They just wanna get new weapons (that bind to you, because they could never handle losing their precious items) and kill monsters.


  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182


    Originally posted by Berserk3r
    There are definitely a lot of carebears in this thread that have never played a real MMORPG.  One with freedom and the thought of being able to gain it all or lose everything.  You're all just another number.  You all follow the same path as everyone else.  You go run your little instanced dungeons so you can get "phat lewt".  You all make fun of games like EverQuest, even though WoW is the ultimate "phat lewt" game.  You people think Battlegrounds is PvP.  *chuckles*

    I mean, there is just no getting to you people.  The OP of this thread knows what he's talking about.  He wants a game that offers you real choices.  He doesn't want to be another piece of grain, doing the same old quests that everyone else has done.  He wants to be able to rule an empire, and mix and match skills to play whatever character he feels like playing.  He doesn't want to be limited to a silly class, and if you think talents make you special in WoW, please feel free to slash yourself.

    And you can't tell me that FFA PvP has never worked, because UO was doing just fine.  So what about Trammel.  Trammel just proves the fact that 90% of MMORPGers are just a bunch of noobs, who don't care about making their own mark in the world.  They just wanna get new weapons (that bind to you, because they could never handle losing their precious items) and kill monsters.




    um, you really didn't made your own "mark" in UO. I think thats a bit more of your wishfull memory then the actual truth.

    oh, and just because you don't drop items when you die does not mean it isn't "real" pvp.
  • TymoraTymora Member UncommonPosts: 1,295

    I like your "rules and characterizations" for mmorpgs.  I've played many that have had some of these, but only 1 of them came close to having them all.

    I'd love to see a mmorpg that included all of these things.  Maybe someday I will.  However, different people prefer different things in a mmo.  Some folks really like instancing.  I know many who hate PvP and even though they play a mmo with PvP, they don't take part in it.

    So what would be the harm in following a guide such as this one when creating a mmorpg?  I suppose it all depends on the creators of the game and what they like best, and what they think will work best in their game (and help them make the most money).

    I don't know if the quality of mmorpgs have been reduced.  World of Warcraft is a quality mmorpg in my opinion.  However, I do think that a new standard has been set, and a very successful one.  This leads me to believe that in the future, other companies will follow along, trying to match that successful standard.  I am afraid that because of this, new and innovative things may not be tried in mmorpgs of tomorrow, at least not until this successful standard dies down some and companies get bolder.

  • XenduliXenduli Member Posts: 654

    newsflash: mmorpgs dont exist anymore. Few role-play, few like to group ("whaa I can't solo"), they are becoming less massive (instance overload on some of them, *cough* DDO).

    Basically they are just online games now.

    No annoying animated GIF here!

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen Member Posts: 1,493


    Originally posted by Berserk3r
    There are definitely a lot of carebears in this thread that have never played a real MMORPG.  One with freedom and the thought of being able to gain it all or lose everything.  You're all just another number.  You all follow the same path as everyone else.  You go run your little instanced dungeons so you can get "phat lewt".  You all make fun of games like EverQuest, even though WoW is the ultimate "phat lewt" game.  You people think Battlegrounds is PvP.  *chuckles*

    I mean, there is just no getting to you people.  The OP of this thread knows what he's talking about.  He wants a game that offers you real choices.  He doesn't want to be another piece of grain, doing the same old quests that everyone else has done.  He wants to be able to rule an empire, and mix and match skills to play whatever character he feels like playing.  He doesn't want to be limited to a silly class, and if you think talents make you special in WoW, please feel free to slash yourself.

    And you can't tell me that FFA PvP has never worked, because UO was doing just fine.  So what about Trammel.  Trammel just proves the fact that 90% of MMORPGers are just a bunch of noobs, who don't care about making their own mark in the world.  They just wanna get new weapons (that bind to you, because they could never handle losing their precious items) and kill monsters.


    But their point is correct.  Anti-social (ie sociopathic) playstyles just don't work in the real world or in mmorpgs.  People don't want to spend time (sometimes many hours) to be productive at some task to gain some item only to have someone just jump them and kill them.  And I do believe that many of the PKers, despite whatever protest they might attempt, would do said jumping when they were at an advantage.  Killing someone N levels less than you or who is weakened from combat isn't noble nor is it something to encouraged.

    The rare person in society who gets his jollies from his NEED to kill AND loot a fellow player is not just the odd man out, but IMO someone who would likely need to have some serious psychological work.  It is not just off a little bit, it is way off from normal society.  Try and justify it however you want.


  • fmaalexfmaalex Member UncommonPosts: 87
    If an emo kid wants to play MMO and be anti-soical, we shouldnt discriminate :p


    That being said, i feel the OP is just listing a bunch of things HE/SHE
    wants to see in an MMORPG, its wat the OP feels wat an MMORPG is. I
    dont agree, but i'll give u credit for stating ur mind


    However:

    Dynamic Economy: sounds good, player-driven economy, until u realize ur game is overrun by farmers and everything cost 10x more than it should. Dont say that its the companies fault that they dont ban accounts, cuz in their defence its pointless, becuz the PLAYERS buy gold/adena/gil. As long as the players do it, its profitable. If i'm a farmer selling adena/gil and making a killing, if i get ban i'll simply make another account and start selling all over again, its perfectly logical from a business point of view and there's nothing anyone can do about it in a player driven economy, unless of course the players stop buying...not gonna happen

    Housing Placement: Its not possible for dev to make it available for u to put an "instance" house anywhere on the map, thats gonna be a huge huge huge traffic load on the server if a player is allow to create an instance house (i'm assuming thats wat u mean, if u want a house anyone can enter thats just being illogical). FFXI i think did a good enuf job in letting a player rent a room and such. Given that if they make ur house transferable to any city that would be even better.

    Dynamic storyline: Ok there are wat, 2-5k players on a server? U want to create a storyline where everyone will follow wat the highest lvl (probably will win power) say? So everyone will wanna gain that power, simply put it everyone will wanna be a hero and they'll grind tirelessly for that power...that will make the game into a job, and become much less enjoyable. Besides, peeps play MMO becuz they wanna be a hero in w/e they decides to be, if they wanna be a peasant under someone's ruling, they dont need to play the game, they just need to step outside into wat we call REAL LIFE.

    Non-combat jobs: I like this idea, becuz some carebears wanna help but dont wanna fight, its true. However, that will require dev to balance skills, research, test, spend a whole LOT of money for that very very very small amount of peeps that dont enjoy pvp. Instead they can spend it on advertising or mayb, just mayb even a little more game content for the other 90% of gamers. No contest there

    PvP: open pvp allows zerg ganking which makes the game less enjoyable for a big % of the server. I know u wanna bash the guy for KSing u, but if u r able to kill him, he's also able to bring his whole clan/guild here and rape u without lube. Open pvp system is just that, until someone comes up with a genius idea to prevent mass zerging, u'll have to deal with that if u want Open PvP

    No instance: u just said u want housing now u dont want instance...wtf

    Multiple skill paths: Kinda like Diablo, or RO, good idea on paper, bad idea in reality, cuz sooner or later players will find the cookie-cutter build. Rendering the rest of the skill path useless, waste of money in dev eyes, and sadly y there are less and less of these games.

    Able to solo: Y dont u just play some offline RPG then if u like to play by urself so much...

    Full customization: sounds good, would u like crappy graphics or massive lagfest as ur side, sir? Of course it would be fking awesome to be able to make ur char look like brad pitt or jessica alba, but the tradeoff is that if u want performance ur game will look like shit, if u want graphics then ur game will lag like shit.




  • xpowderxxpowderx Member UncommonPosts: 2,078

    MOST HARDCORE!!! FURY!! MOST INNOVATIVE "FURY" <IMO> BEST game to look foward to a a pvper"FURY"!! They cut out the whiney BS that most gamers /whine about. How about some cheese with that /whine!! So im looking foward to Fury. And WOW is not the best pvp!



  • Originally posted by ianubisi


    Originally posted by xplororor
    After they did something about their FFA PvP the drop slowed, and stopped. 


    They have documentation stating clearly that on the release of Trammel, their subscribership quadrupled.

    In the end, the money is in the PvE game.

    PvP has a place...a strong, secure place. But more players will come to games of evolving characters, roleplaying games, in PvE settings than in PvP settings.


    You can't make sweeping generalizations about PvP like this.  The difference between FFA PvP and match play PvP is so vast that you could probably make a case that match play PvP is closer to instanced PvE than it is to FFA PvP.

    The fact is most people are not pure fighters, they like some action but they aren't the sort of people who will pick up boxing or wrestling or karate or whatever.  Some people get their ass kicked and they keep coming no matter some people just give up.  And there are alot of spectrums in between.   Some people just want ot fight, others need objectives but want less preictable opponents.

    The PvP calssification as a general classification in MMO's is no longer useful.  Tha only thing it implies is non-computer controlled opponents and not much else. 

    The FFA with looting from old UO is a world away from the consequenceless instanced pvp of WoW.


  • LexxieLexxie Member Posts: 37


    Originally posted by Vagelisp

    A new era of online entertainment has grown extremely fast in the last few years.
    All of us remember our first steps in our first mmorpg game, trying to figure out how to advance, prosper and put our unique mark in a Virtual World.
    Many things have changed in these last years. From the evolution of the first mmo's (I will not mention any companies or game titles in this article) many software companies understood that this kind of stuff (they don't even know or care what an mmorpg is anyway) brings cash and so they begun their "honest" effort to attract as many players' money from all around the globe into their bank accounts.
    The formula is very simple and works most of the time...
    "At first we must get a really good 3d engine (maybe we already have our own), some artists, a few programmers, and a easy to read phantasy book. Don't worry about money. Money to start is always available from our single player game sales. And don't even worry about finding clever Game Designers and ideas. We must focus in graphics and put as many people's pixels, bytes and emotions as possible in our servers.
    Anyway the people that will play our new masterpiece will range from 14 to 18 years old. They don't have previous mmo experience and they just want to gain levels, kill and earn "gold", "adenas", "platinums" or carry and maybe trade as many "stones" of goods.
    We shall start with a few days free trial and then we shall charge people on a monthly basis or even better offer them the opportunity to play for free and charge them only for expancions, advanced characters and unique items.
    If we can attract to many people for about a few months, we shall make a lot of cash, leave them alone with their ideas and bug problems and we shall create a new mmo or even better take the cash and forget about them.
    Ahh i forgot to mention that we should go to E3 with a cool graphics demo of our product and make all of them talk about us. Maybe put some half naked women at the show (or maybe naked?) carrying Axes and war maces or even better some katanas too? Asia has many people that already play mmos and they will want to play ours too."

    All these thoughts sound to me like the 90 percent of ideas a software house has about people and mmos, but that is what has really happened during the last years. Just from almost nowhere we saw about 30 or more new mmos come to life that try to make us believe that they are what we really wanted to play in our free time.
    They are mostly copying one another with no new ideas and just repeating the same formula of kill and advance with no other important options that will make us want to rush home after work and spend a good amount of time on them, without using leveling services, macroing and using bots overnight.
    Many companies claim that they have millions of people that enjoy their creations trying to prove that they have the best mmo around.If so why all of them offer about 15 days free game trial and why they don't give us real statistics about how many people are playing live in their servers at a specific time? A web page may have thousands of users registerd but how many people are viewing it at the same time?
    An MMORPG is not just putting a few millions of people in some server farms and call it that. If this is true then internet is the best MMORPG since it has billions of people communicating with their ideas and emotions.
    MMORPG is not just a leveling environment of players trying to win through PVE or PVP. If this is true then you can just well log in any "simple" online game and make parties with your friends and believe me this works very well.
    In my opinion a true MMORPG must follow certain rules and characteristics that will make it woth playing and distinguish it from "regular" online games:
    1. Dynamic economy. I sell much it becomes cheaper. I buy much it becomes expencive even from npc's.
    2 . House placing system. I want to put my house almost anywhere i like and store what i like.No hotels please.they smell bad even for ogres.
    3. Dynamic Storyline which can be altered by any player. We like to be able to advance through a dynamic politics environment and alter the balance of the leading factions that rule the virtual world.
    4. Non combat professions. Like Engineers, cooks, Drivers etc.
    5. PVP. Not just between Guilds or Factions .How many times did you want to crash a guy's head because he just keeps saying: "Hey i saw it first! Why did you take my kill?" or just because you don't like his attitude?
    PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.

    6. No Instance servers or Dungeons. I want to see what other people do in a quest and maybe help them or learn from them. If the world in which we play creates instances of areas and dungeons all the time then it is not an MMORPG.
    7. Multiple Class and Skill paths. I may change my mind and want to be something between a warrior and a mage and maybe get some skills from thief and assasin or i may want to start all over again.
    8. Able to solo advancement. Many people like to play alone. First they advance and then join a party or faction of their choice. Messages like "You can't enter this area without a group of 4 players" just don't work and destroy the fiction of the world.
    9. Full avatar customization. Many mmos when you create your avatar they just let you choose between a few characters. No hair color , no height no weight, no nose job, just a few ready sprites for you to choose while on the other hand many single player player RPG's let you choose the width of your beard and the tilt of your eyebrows.
    and last but not least
    10. No internet surf and Cow levels. All hints and tips to finish a quest must be found in the game and not just spreaded by the people who wrote the game in a popular web site that makes us read first for a few hours and Alt + tab to find out what to do next. This complexity and secrecy of quests shows lack of good ideas in quests and of course and it is one step closer to canceling our accounts.
    Thank you very much for reading. Maybe we as players that enjoy new ideas can raise the standard of the upcoming releases of MMORPGs and maybe create our new "ESRB" like rating for them. An MMORPG Rating, to make sure that what they make is what they should make and even better what they make is what we want and expect.


    One word:  EVE



  • Originally posted by Berserk3r


    And you can't tell me that FFA PvP has never worked, because UO was doing just fine.  So what about Trammel.  Trammel just proves the fact that 90% of MMORPGers are just a bunch of noobs, who don't care about making their own mark in the world.  They just wanna get new weapons (that bind to you, because they could never handle losing their precious items) and kill monsters.


    Of course I can't tell you that FFA PvP has never worked. I mean, who am I? I'm just another unknown internet surfer. I could be some movie star, or a High School dropout, or a 8 yr old, or an 80 yr old.


    But perhaps the guy who created UO, the guy responsible for making the UO ... YOU liked, and later, the UO you disliked, perhaps he can tell you that FFA PvP does not work. In UO he was known as Designer Dragon. On the old CSWG forums, he was known as Holocron. His real name is Raph Koster. He is THE most successful MMORPG designer, and creater, on the planet. Lord British choose him to bring Ultima 0 - 9 into online internet mmorpg forum in UO. Raph then went on to create SWG (the original SWG is now known as Classic SWG since the current SWG is just a gutted shell of what it used to be. Some would even say just like what happened with the original UO vs the present UO.)



    I strongly suggest you take a few days to check out Raph Koster's personal website. He has tons of very intresting essays on many things related to mmorpgs. Including PvP.


    His site main URL:


    http://www.raphkoster.com/


    Link to quick review of his history, including the original UO:


    http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/index.shtml


    Link to main essays page:



    (more later gotta go)

    Essays on PvP:







  • *double post*

    (why does this happen every so often at mmorpg.com? Hmmm....)
  • NadrilNadril Member Posts: 1,276


    Originally posted by xplororor

    Originally posted by Vagelisp
    dasda


    PVP is a real pain for almost all the software houses. They actually don't want PVP because they are afraid that players will cancel their accounts after they get killed from well organised groups of PKs. They all now have the formula of PVP servers or areas and just allow PVP between factions and guilds and thats all. They just want to make things easy so all people will advance smooth and fast with macros and no real challenge. Many previous PVP games changed their policy after receiving complaints about people that said they could not advance because they got PKed. And of course customers are always right.





      To be able to kill any player you dislike involves a TYPE of PvP. Known as FFA PvP. (Free For All PvP). Every single mmorpg that has tried this has failed miserably. FFA PvP has been proven to not work.

      And... what is YOUR solution? You posted what you see is the problem. Now post your ideas on possible SOLUTIONS to this problem.

    BTW... obviously you are talking about Ultima Online. Do more research... it was more than simply "players threatening to cancel their accounts after getting PK'd". Players really WERE DOING IT! Raph Kosteer, aka Designer Dragon went into extreem detail. On how 1 full time PKer can, will, and does, drive away on avarage 20 players. Who should the game company aim for? The 1 player or the 20 players? UO started to lose THOUSANDS of customers. After they did something about their FFA PvP the drop slowed, and stopped.

      Here is more about FFA PvP... it does not matter how uber you are, you will get killed, over and over. All the other players have to do is wait for you to get low on health from fighting NPCs, then they kill you, no matter if you normally have 10,000 health and they normally have 500 health. Now go play on a WoW PvP server for a few months from level 1 to as high as you can make it! You will come back here crying like a little girl. WoW PvP currently is the hardest hard core PvP in mmorpgs. (AO, and DAoC are very close also.) In WoW other players can hunt your crying baby self down anywhere in the game world. Even chase after you into any building, dungeon, even the starting areas! And chain kill you until you are forced to log off and stop playing for the night.



    WoW, PvP and hardcore all in the same sentance? impossible!

    You forgot to mention that deaths in WoW are meaningless. It's like, wow I have to repair my stuff oh no!

    PvP in wow is a joke.
  • CleffyIICleffyII Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,440

    That may have been true in previous generations of games; like RF Online.  But more companies are putting alot out there now. 

    Storylines are getting huge and in-depth.  Some upcoming games have novel lengths of just storyline.  I remember in the past backstory used to be "You are in this world and it has been overrun/dominated by monsters.  Now you must kill them"  Now they are epic tales of several protagonists finally leading to an ending solution that opens up the world for adventure.

    There is also alot more content coming in on newer games.  Back in the day; quests were an occasional thing, because most of the time you picked out your favorite mob and killed them all day.  It was only through 11 billion more updates that the game got so many quests.  But now games are starting out with several thousand quests.

    Korean publishers are starting to expand on gameplay.  Theme is constantly changed and new gameplay mechanics are introduced.  There is alot more mixing of genres as well. 

    One reason I see this happening is because instead of everyone going "We have to program our own engine from scratch"  Alot are now taking another engine and modding it to do what they want cutting out half the production process.

    I think you are getting too picky in games.  If someone were to release UO classic tommorrow except it was actually a new game; you probably wouldn't play it because it doesn't come close to amounting to the games of today.

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