Originally posted by DeserttFoxx When you advertise a game as hardcore, you get hardcore fans.. hardcore players arent known for being pleasent. Its usually the hardcore players taht will turn you off a game faster then anyone else. They are always arrogant and rude. While I tend to agree, this is a really big generality and those should be avoided. I think it probably more appropriate to say that many of the hardcore players who also post on forums have been extremely rude to people who have oppossing opinions. This is probably due to the fact that they are so passionate about the games they are involved in. I do have to agree with this to an extent, I certainly understand trying to get to get the game out that you want to play. However my expereince is that the hardcore players are many times quite rude and while not always they do tend to be very arrogant. While i do understand the passion, they tend to look down on people that do not share their ideas. Now, any dev can see that vangaurd is a sinking ship, and without the right assistance it is going to capsize. IF they really want fixes, open beta up to more players. Then after 3 weeks, send out indepth questionairres asking about the games current state. no mulitple choice, full questions that require real responses, then close beta and use forums to adjust as needed. If they really want this game to survive a year, it seems major steps are needed. Yeah. . . they aren't going to open up the beta to whoever when it is still a mess. That's terrible game PR. Maybe they should have chosen their beta participants better, but I don't think you can blame hardcore fans for trying to keep the one western MMO that advertises itself as using old game inacessible game mechanics like xp debt, long travel times, and other timesinks true to that stated goal. . . even if a large portion of the beta-testers feel these game mechanics aren't working. The devs said they were making a game that woudl cater to people that like these things even though they've proven to be unpopular with larger bases. Of course there will be tension between the mass audience and the smaller audience that is being catered to, and of course this will show up even more pointedly during beta where even broken systems may be defended by the hardcore minority simply because they like the idea of the game mechanic and are afraid of losing it even if it is completely broken. What they should have done is just go ahead and say this game was the for the hardcore ONLY. However they are not. Instead they market the game as having enough "casual player" content to keep them happy, and when the casual player comes over and tries to get some "casual" ideas in the game, they get ripped. Sigil really just needs to drop the whole "casual player freindly" part of their advertising and just make it for the hardcore people. Anyone else is going to be run off anyway.
On a personal note.. i dont care whether they decide to do this or not. I wont be playing vangaurd at all, never wanted to, and unless Hero's Journey is a bust, i dont plan on going to it. Ouch. . . good luck with that. Heroe's Journey looked really interesting at E3, but I have no idea how they are going to balance it. It looks like a game where everyone will be an awesome rogue/tank/mage with spells that can be used from across the map, and a world that isn't cohesive as it is being designed by over a hundred level designers across the world who have never even met one another. Simu has been doing that sort of thing for a very long time actually. And it's works well for them, so I dont really have any problems with how the gameworld is being put together.And I've seen some pretty badly planned gameworlds with a onsite team as well. As for balance, first off, you only get 2 classes, not 3. Not really a big deal, just think Hybrids. Most games have them. Also, HJ is not so much about PvP, so the balance problems wont be as magnified because of that. Will there be balanceing? Of course, name one MMO that doesnt have that, how they handle it will be the key. I wish them the best of luck with it and I'm hopeful that it works out. . . but I'm definitely dubious. Anyway, if those don't work out then you might check out some of the games that did look very promising at E3: Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, and Tabula Rasa all looked amazing.
On a personal note.. i dont care whether they decide to do this or not. I wont be playing vangaurd at all, never wanted to, and unless Hero's Journey is a bust, i dont plan on going to it. Ouch. . . good luck with that. Heroe's Journey looked really interesting at E3, but I have no idea how they are going to balance it. It looks like a game where everyone will be an awesome rogue/tank/mage with spells that can be used from across the map, and a world that isn't cohesive as it is being designed by over a hundred level designers across the world who have never even met one another. Simu has been doing that sort of thing for a very long time actually. And it's works well for them, so I dont really have any problems with how the gameworld is being put together.And I've seen some pretty badly planned gameworlds with a onsite team as well. As for balance, first off, you only get 2 classes, not 3. Not really a big deal, just think Hybrids. Most games have them. Also, HJ is not so much about PvP, so the balance problems wont be as magnified because of that. Will there be balanceing? Of course, name one MMO that doesnt have that, how they handle it will be the key. I wish them the best of luck with it and I'm hopeful that it works out. . . but I'm definitely dubious. Anyway, if those don't work out then you might check out some of the games that did look very promising at E3: Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, and Tabula Rasa all looked amazing.
On a personal note.. i dont care whether they decide to do this or not. I wont be playing vangaurd at all, never wanted to, and unless Hero's Journey is a bust, i dont plan on going to it. Ouch. . . good luck with that. Heroe's Journey looked really interesting at E3, but I have no idea how they are going to balance it. It looks like a game where everyone will be an awesome rogue/tank/mage with spells that can be used from across the map, and a world that isn't cohesive as it is being designed by over a hundred level designers across the world who have never even met one another. Simu has been doing that sort of thing for a very long time actually. And it's works well for them, so I dont really have any problems with how the gameworld is being put together.And I've seen some pretty badly planned gameworlds with a onsite team as well. As for balance, first off, you only get 2 classes, not 3. Not really a big deal, just think Hybrids. Most games have them. Also, HJ is not so much about PvP, so the balance problems wont be as magnified because of that. Will there be balanceing? Of course, name one MMO that doesnt have that, how they handle it will be the key. I wish them the best of luck with it and I'm hopeful that it works out. . . but I'm definitely dubious. Anyway, if those don't work out then you might check out some of the games that did look very promising at E3: Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, and Tabula Rasa all looked amazing.
I have no clue why I cant edit the repeated bottom part of this post :P
Originally posted by baphamet this is sooo funny, jonaku...what are you trying to prove with this thread? everyone knows that the foh forums are infested with wow fans that love to bash nearly all other games. and its all the same idiots doing the bashing to, honestly the FOH forums are a steaming POS....all i read is a bunch of whining idiots spitting profanities and insults at each other to get their point across. if the FOH forums is what you consider a "good community" that sure explains alot.
I am not from the FoH forums and almost every point those guys made they are correct.
I won't bother posting anything in the VG forums anymore because of it and I am sure there are others. The games direction is almost exactly as they described.
If you think they are making it all up you are sadly mistaken and unfortunately unless things change this game will flop as hard as DD0.
Already read it, and while they may have lessened some of the super-extreme tedium in some cases, it's still a very hardcore game. When was the last time you LOST a corpse in EQ, outside of a bug? You can do that in Vangard. When it doesnt take a year to max a character playing casually, travel is relatively easy, combat doesnt take minutes and downtime longer, the game isnt only about the best "l00t", the endgame isn't all about raiding as it has been done, come talk to me aobut being casual freindly. At it's core, this is a hardcore game, period. Not because it's difficult, just that everything takes tons of time to do. Sigil really needs to just embrace that and run with it. Hell, they could market around it.
"Are you Hardcore enough?"
Heck, throw in permadeath!
At it's core, that is what it is. They would have to re-write everything and in doing so they would loose all of their loyal fans to make it casual-friendly. They just need to let another game company do that, and focus on the Vision. They wont keep casual players because everything in the game is a timesinkor will have to be bought on ebay, and by trying to lessen some things they are going to make the fanbois irate.
Originally posted by Morneblade Already read it, and while they may have lessened some of the super-extreme tedium in some cases, it's still a very hardcore game. When was the last time you LOST a corpse in EQ, outside of a bug? You can do that in Vangard. When it doesnt take a year to max a character playing casually, travel is relatively easy, combat doesnt take minutes and downtime longer, the game isnt only about the best "l00t", the endgame isn't all about raiding as it has been done, come talk to me aobut being casual freindly. At it's core, this is a hardcore game, period. Not because it's difficult, just that everything takes tons of time to do. Sigil really needs to just embrace that and run with it. Hell, they could market around it. "Are you Hardcore enough?" Heck, throw in permadeath! At it's core, that is what it is. They would have to re-write everything and in doing so they would loose all of their loyal fans to make it casual-friendly. They just need to let another game company do that, and focus on the Vision. They wont keep casual players because everything in the game is a timesinkor will have to be bought on ebay, and by trying to lessen some things they are going to make the fanbois irate.
=/ Could you show me some proof that this is how the game is? Cause I've read ALOT of the information and I just don't see it.
For all you know, this game could have all of these "hardcore" mechanics and still be casual friendly, especially when they are pitching the game as an enduring adventure and putting emphasis on discovery and exploration (as actual game elements, and not as an advertising campaign). They may just have designed the game well enough that it enforces playing the game in this style and casuals won't notice or care that they've taken so long to reach max level. Everything I've stated here are obviously wild guesses...but hey, I'm not going to rule it out when I havne't played the darned thing.
Though, I will say, if the game doesn't sound fun to you...I support your choice to not play it. Cause really, we all just play to have fun.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by baphamet this is sooo funny, jonaku...what are you trying to prove with this thread? everyone knows that the foh forums are infested with wow fans that love to bash nearly all other games. and its all the same idiots doing the bashing to, honestly the FOH forums are a steaming POS....all i read is a bunch of whining idiots spitting profanities and insults at each other to get their point across. if the FOH forums is what you consider a "good community" that sure explains alot.I am not from the FoH forums and almost every point those guys made they are correct.I won't bother posting anything in the VG forums anymore because of it and I am sure there are others. The games direction is almost exactly as they described.If you think they are making it all up you are sadly mistaken and unfortunately unless things change this game will flop as hard as DD0.
i am not saying all of the stuff some of the people on FOH forums say are incorrect, however you have to skim through all the garbage to get to those post because 90% of them are the posters i described.
not only that but personally, i cant stand a forum community where people just cuss and insult each other to get their point across, its a POS and other than a few of the posters you are referring to it is as i describe, IMO.
Originally posted by Morneblade Already read it, and while they may have lessened some of the super-extreme tedium in some cases, it's still a very hardcore game. When was the last time you LOST a corpse in EQ, outside of a bug? You can do that in Vangard. When it doesnt take a year to max a character playing casually, travel is relatively easy, combat doesnt take minutes and downtime longer, the game isnt only about the best "l00t", the endgame isn't all about raiding as it has been done, come talk to me aobut being casual freindly. At it's core, this is a hardcore game, period. Not because it's difficult, just that everything takes tons of time to do. Sigil really needs to just embrace that and run with it. Hell, they could market around it. "Are you Hardcore enough?" Heck, throw in permadeath! At it's core, that is what it is. They would have to re-write everything and in doing so they would loose all of their loyal fans to make it casual-friendly. They just need to let another game company do that, and focus on the Vision. They wont keep casual players because everything in the game is a timesinkor will have to be bought on ebay, and by trying to lessen some things they are going to make the fanbois irate.
i somewhat agree, but defiantly not permadeath in a item-centric game
i think every game should cater to one type of player and that there should be a variety of games to cater to different types of players (i.e pve, pvp, casual, hardcore, a mixture of these) but at the same time there should still be some content of all types in every game, at least a little bit.
BTW every mmo is a timesink, and true casuals will never be happy i don't think. how can a company make a mmog thats truly casual and not a timesink and still keep people interested for months if not years?
especially a mmog with a persistent worlds that always exists, with guilds and such? it all boils down to timesinks, it is all a timesink and i don't see it changing with mmog's that require subscriptions any time soon if at all.
Jesus christ could this FoH guild be filled with anymore idiotic WoW players? I find it funny that they all are bashing Vanguard saying how they are "in the beta, played it, uninstalled it, been there done that..it's crap". I am by no means a Vanguard fanboi but christ they need to stop shoving their nose so far up Blizzard's ass...it's getting old as hell now.
People are so damn delusioned and brainwashed by the fact that WoW has 6 million subscribers that any other game that could have potential gets bashed on and basically flushed down the shitter. Damn it's not like anyone is making them quit WoW to play Vanguard....we don't even give a shit whether these players stay with WoW or not.
It sounds like this piece of shit guild FoH are just bashing any non-WoW game out there. This guild was a friggin joke in EQ, and they are still a joke today. Period.
Originally posted by joejccva Jesus christ could this FoH guild be filled with anymore idiotic WoW players? I find it funny that they all are bashing Vanguard saying how they are "in the beta, played it, uninstalled it, been there done that..it's crap". I am by no means a Vanguard fanboi but christ they need to stop shoving their nose so far up Blizzard's ass...it's getting old as hell now.People are so damn delusioned and brainwashed by the fact that WoW has 6 million subscribers that any other game that could have potential gets bashed on and basically flushed down the shitter. Damn it's not like anyone is making them quit WoW to play Vanguard....we don't even give a shit whether these players stay with WoW or not.It sounds like this piece of shit guild FoH are just bashing any non-WoW game out there. This guild was a friggin joke in EQ, and they are still a joke today. Period.
honestly, from reading the FOH forums it isn't necessarily the guild its self spewing most the garbage, it is the random wow fanboi's that frequent the forums.
those people are able to take any piece of information from any game (not just vanguard) and spin it into a negative. they say the same shit about AOC and any other game that may rival their beloved wow.
whats really funny is they bash the vanguard fanboi's and claim its a shitty community.....when FOH forums has to be the most awful community i have ever seen other than the wow official forums, and since most these people are indeed wow fanboi's this does not surprise me one bit.
Originally posted by Morneblade Already read it, and while they may have lessened some of the super-extreme tedium in some cases, it's still a very hardcore game. When was the last time you LOST a corpse in EQ, outside of a bug? You can do that in Vangard. When it doesnt take a year to max a character playing casually, travel is relatively easy, combat doesnt take minutes and downtime longer, the game isnt only about the best "l00t", the endgame isn't all about raiding as it has been done, come talk to me aobut being casual freindly. At it's core, this is a hardcore game, period. Not because it's difficult, just that everything takes tons of time to do. Sigil really needs to just embrace that and run with it. Hell, they could market around it. "Are you Hardcore enough?" Heck, throw in permadeath! At it's core, that is what it is. They would have to re-write everything and in doing so they would loose all of their loyal fans to make it casual-friendly. They just need to let another game company do that, and focus on the Vision. They wont keep casual players because everything in the game is a timesinkor will have to be bought on ebay, and by trying to lessen some things they are going to make the fanbois irate.
i somewhat agree, but defiantly not permadeath in a item-centric game
We'll Im not a fan a permadeath at all, but I really dont see the difference in permadeath in a item or skill centric game. Your "toon" is gone either way. One reason I wouldnt play a permadeath game. But it is certainly "hardcore". I was really only being silly with this comment to be honest.
i think every game should cater to one type of player and that there should be a variety of games to cater to different types of players (i.e pve, pvp, casual, hardcore, a mixture of these) but at the same time there should still be some content of all types in every game, at least a little bit.
I agree with this. I just wouldn't try to market the game as being for everyone.
BTW every mmo is a timesink, and true casuals will never be happy i don't think. how can a company make a mmog thats truly casual and not a timesink and still keep people interested for months if not years?
True to a point. I guess "timesink" is going to be defined differently for everyone. I would like to be able to log on for 3 hours and feel like I accomplished something. By that I mean made made more than a small dent in my level bar. I dont want to log on for 6 hours on a day I'm off and get a fractoin of a level, if all I do is exp. Or spend a hour getting to a new area. Or have to raid for 15 hours at a time. There are things that take some time, and then there are timesinks. As for keeping me interested, just make it fun to do.
especially a mmog with a persistent worlds that always exists, with guilds and such? it all boils down to timesinks, it is all a timesink and i don't see it changing with mmog's that require subscriptions any time soon if at all.
Well, there are a coupld of games being developed right now that are doing away with alot of timesinks, and the importance of gear as well.
Originally posted by Morneblade Well, there are a coupld of games being developed right now that are doing away with alot of timesinks, and the importance of gear as well.
true, but none that have been released so far...so these are just still ideas and in theory could work. also in a game where you spend so much time getting loot for your character, and not just one set of gear but multiple sets of situational gear as well as gear for cr's....permadeath just wouldn't work IMO.
far to many people would just quit over the issue and that server would die off really fast. i understand your point about getting more accomplished in less time, like say if you only play mmo's 2-3 hours at a time.
i just feel personally that if it were me and i could never devote more that a couple hours a day to playing that i probably wouldn't be interested in a game like vanguard.
if i just had a day or two a week that i could only play a hour or two then there are defiantly things you can do in vanguard other than crazy group dungeons that require 4+ hours to finish on that particular day.
maybe do some diplomacy or crafting those days, or the solo content. i honestly don't know how this is all going to play out for the solo/casual player, if all you do is play solo/casual i just don't think vanguard could ever be the game for you, but we will see.
Comments
LOL! Now that was funny.
You gotta admit, he's good with that quote button!
I suggest reading the newly released information about Vanguard Death Penalties.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/86997
It's not as hardcore as everyone thought it was.
I won't bother posting anything in the VG forums anymore because of it and I am sure there are others. The games direction is almost exactly as they described.
If you think they are making it all up you are sadly mistaken and unfortunately unless things change this game will flop as hard as DD0.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Already read it, and while they may have lessened some of the super-extreme tedium in some cases, it's still a very hardcore game. When was the last time you LOST a corpse in EQ, outside of a bug? You can do that in Vangard. When it doesnt take a year to max a character playing casually, travel is relatively easy, combat doesnt take minutes and downtime longer, the game isnt only about the best "l00t", the endgame isn't all about raiding as it has been done, come talk to me aobut being casual freindly. At it's core, this is a hardcore game, period. Not because it's difficult, just that everything takes tons of time to do. Sigil really needs to just embrace that and run with it. Hell, they could market around it.
"Are you Hardcore enough?"
Heck, throw in permadeath!
At it's core, that is what it is. They would have to re-write everything and in doing so they would loose all of their loyal fans to make it casual-friendly. They just need to let another game company do that, and focus on the Vision. They wont keep casual players because everything in the game is a timesinkor will have to be bought on ebay, and by trying to lessen some things they are going to make the fanbois irate.
=/ Could you show me some proof that this is how the game is? Cause I've read ALOT of the information and I just don't see it.
For all you know, this game could have all of these "hardcore" mechanics and still be casual friendly, especially when they are pitching the game as an enduring adventure and putting emphasis on discovery and exploration (as actual game elements, and not as an advertising campaign). They may just have designed the game well enough that it enforces playing the game in this style and casuals won't notice or care that they've taken so long to reach max level. Everything I've stated here are obviously wild guesses...but hey, I'm not going to rule it out when I havne't played the darned thing.
Though, I will say, if the game doesn't sound fun to you...I support your choice to not play it.
Cause really, we all just play to have fun.
i am not saying all of the stuff some of the people on FOH forums say are incorrect, however you have to skim through all the garbage to get to those post because 90% of them are the posters i described.
not only that but personally, i cant stand a forum community where people just cuss and insult each other to get their point across, its a POS and other than a few of the posters you are referring to it is as i describe, IMO.
i somewhat agree, but defiantly not permadeath in a item-centric game
i think every game should cater to one type of player and that there should be a variety of games to cater to different types of players (i.e pve, pvp, casual, hardcore, a mixture of these) but at the same time there should still be some content of all types in every game, at least a little bit.
BTW every mmo is a timesink, and true casuals will never be happy i don't think. how can a company make a mmog thats truly casual and not a timesink and still keep people interested for months if not years?
especially a mmog with a persistent worlds that always exists, with guilds and such? it all boils down to timesinks, it is all a timesink and i don't see it changing with mmog's that require subscriptions any time soon if at all.
Jesus christ could this FoH guild be filled with anymore idiotic WoW players? I find it funny that they all are bashing Vanguard saying how they are "in the beta, played it, uninstalled it, been there done that..it's crap". I am by no means a Vanguard fanboi but christ they need to stop shoving their nose so far up Blizzard's ass...it's getting old as hell now.
People are so damn delusioned and brainwashed by the fact that WoW has 6 million subscribers that any other game that could have potential gets bashed on and basically flushed down the shitter. Damn it's not like anyone is making them quit WoW to play Vanguard....we don't even give a shit whether these players stay with WoW or not.
It sounds like this piece of shit guild FoH are just bashing any non-WoW game out there. This guild was a friggin joke in EQ, and they are still a joke today. Period.
honestly, from reading the FOH forums it isn't necessarily the guild its self spewing most the garbage, it is the random wow fanboi's that frequent the forums.
those people are able to take any piece of information from any game (not just vanguard) and spin it into a negative. they say the same shit about AOC and any other game that may rival their beloved wow.
whats really funny is they bash the vanguard fanboi's and claim its a shitty community.....when FOH forums has to be the most awful community i have ever seen other than the wow official forums, and since most these people are indeed wow fanboi's this does not surprise me one bit.
i somewhat agree, but defiantly not permadeath in a item-centric game
We'll Im not a fan a permadeath at all, but I really dont see the difference in permadeath in a item or skill centric game. Your "toon" is gone either way. One reason I wouldnt play a permadeath game. But it is certainly "hardcore". I was really only being silly with this comment to be honest.
i think every game should cater to one type of player and that there should be a variety of games to cater to different types of players (i.e pve, pvp, casual, hardcore, a mixture of these) but at the same time there should still be some content of all types in every game, at least a little bit.
I agree with this. I just wouldn't try to market the game as being for everyone.
BTW every mmo is a timesink, and true casuals will never be happy i don't think. how can a company make a mmog thats truly casual and not a timesink and still keep people interested for months if not years?
True to a point. I guess "timesink" is going to be defined differently for everyone. I would like to be able to log on for 3 hours and feel like I accomplished something. By that I mean made made more than a small dent in my level bar. I dont want to log on for 6 hours on a day I'm off and get a fractoin of a level, if all I do is exp. Or spend a hour getting to a new area. Or have to raid for 15 hours at a time. There are things that take some time, and then there are timesinks. As for keeping me interested, just make it fun to do.
especially a mmog with a persistent worlds that always exists, with guilds and such? it all boils down to timesinks, it is all a timesink and i don't see it changing with mmog's that require subscriptions any time soon if at all.
Well, there are a coupld of games being developed right now that are doing away with alot of timesinks, and the importance of gear as well.
true, but none that have been released so far...so these are just still ideas and in theory could work. also in a game where you spend so much time getting loot for your character, and not just one set of gear but multiple sets of situational gear as well as gear for cr's....permadeath just wouldn't work IMO.
far to many people would just quit over the issue and that server would die off really fast. i understand your point about getting more accomplished in less time, like say if you only play mmo's 2-3 hours at a time.
i just feel personally that if it were me and i could never devote more that a couple hours a day to playing that i probably wouldn't be interested in a game like vanguard.
if i just had a day or two a week that i could only play a hour or two then there are defiantly things you can do in vanguard other than crazy group dungeons that require 4+ hours to finish on that particular day.
maybe do some diplomacy or crafting those days, or the solo content. i honestly don't know how this is all going to play out for the solo/casual player, if all you do is play solo/casual i just don't think vanguard could ever be the game for you, but we will see.