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WHY does everyone keep reffering to Vanguard as a SOE game?

I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.

So now am I missing something?

Comments

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,311

    well it is a soe game in a sense, it is being co-published by soe and it will be played on soe servers as well as have the soe label on the cover.

    yeah its a soe game, however it is not being developed by soe witch is the important thing (if you are a soe hater, and hate the games they make).

  • CayleuCayleu Member Posts: 7


    Originally posted by Mandy


    WHY does everyone keep reffering to Vanguard as a SOE game?


    Generally for each person, its one of these 2 possibilities:

    1) Ignorance

    2) Dishonesty

  • Agricola1Agricola1 Member UncommonPosts: 4,977


    Originally posted by Mandy


    I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.
    So now am I missing something?



    The way I see it is, it's a bit like a company opening up a Kindergarden near you. The company has a disagreemnet with the shareholders and finds a party to buy them out, luckily this party shares their vision and agrees to help with the advertising as he has good media connections.

    Would you have a problem sending your kids there? Probably not. If you found out the new business partner (who's only real involvment is advertising as he doesn't hold enough shares to influence the business at the moment) was Michael Jackson and his name was plastered all over the Kindergarden would you still have no problem?

    Yeh, that's how many people feel about Sigil's business deal with SOE. No-one doubts the game or Sigil so much, it's just that the company co-publishing it doesn't have the best track record concerning these matters. I mean if you owned Ford and DeLorean came to you asking to help manufacture your cars wether he could do the job or not isn't a concern, the PR would kill your sales alone.

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

    CS Lewis

  • jonakujonaku Member Posts: 281


    Originally posted by Mandy


    I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.
    So now am I missing something?


    SOE is co-publishing Vanguard with Sigil. SOE controls marketing and server infrastructure. Some people, like me, believe that SOE will eventually buy Sigil. See: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/79948.
  • SpiritofGameSpiritofGame Member UncommonPosts: 1,332


    Originally posted by jonaku

    Originally posted by Mandy


    I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.
    So now am I missing something?

    SOE is co-publishing Vanguard with Sigil. SOE controls marketing and server infrastructure. Some people, like me, believe that SOE will eventually buy Sigil. See: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/79948.

    Why does Sigil need a co-publisher?

    1. Because it would take far too much money to become a full blown publisher/distributor.

    2. Because we don't want to be a company responsible for operating thousands of server boxes and dealing with all of the operations issues of keeping machines up and running. Rather, we want to make games.

    3. Because it takes more than money to develop all of the relationships and deals we would need with distributors to make all of this work, and even if we wanted to be distributors, the time and effort it would take to make all of those relationships would draw us away from doing again what we love to do: making MMOGs.

    Source: Brad McQuaid May 6, 2006

    Is SOE going to buy Sigil?

    About the same amount of time before California annexes Nevada.

    Read: there is nothing to either enable it or prevent it, but it ain't likley.

    Source: Jon Grande May 6, 2006





    Source: Jon Grande May 6, 2006




    Source: Jon Grande May 6, 2006




    Source: Jon Grande May 6, 2006





    It's not really an "SOE" game; it is a Sigil developed game -- however, if SOE is involved in any way, this, according to some, will "taint" the game with old SWG-fiasco fears, which may or may not turn out to be justified in the future.


    I take a wait-and-see attitude.



    It's not really an "SOE" game; it is a Sigil developed game -- however, if SOE is involved in any way, this, according to some, will "taint" the game with old SWG-fiasco fears, which may or may not turn out to be justified in the future.


    I take a wait-and-see attitude.




    (Note: NO idea why the forum is duplicating portions of this -- which won't delete -- and also refuses to reformat to left-side alignment.  Sorry)


    ~ Ancient Membership ~

  • SelothSeloth Member Posts: 388

    Having a publisher and a developer that are different enities is not in fact that odd or rare in the computer gamne making industry.

    publishing houses like activision, interplay, EA, microsoft, etc have for years NOT done much if any coding of a game title in house. Early mmorpg was a different subject, but that also seems to be changing to the same model that stand alone games are like.

    The chemistry of a publishing company and a developing company can make of break a game. example  One of my favorite games was star fleet command, the creaters Taldren, made a great game (in my opinion) with interplay as the publisher, the exact same compnay later made a follow on game (star fleet command III) for activison that to me was lacking. Part of the reason i think is that in the follow on game the developing house was "forced" to build a game mechanics that they were not comfortable with for the engine in use.

    As long as the developing house can resist pressure form the publishing house then a game has a chance to be "true" to the goals of the original outline.

  • VindicothVindicoth Member Posts: 273


    Originally posted by jonaku

    Originally posted by Mandy


    I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.
    So now am I missing something?

    SOE is co-publishing Vanguard with Sigil. SOE controls marketing and server infrastructure. Some people, like me, believe that SOE will eventually buy Sigil. See: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/79948.


    And thats why you're ignorant ^_^ Sigil has said theres nothing SoE can do to buy Sigil, after what happend to Verant after SoE took it over, but most ignorant people also don't know that Verant was always under control of sony, where as Sigil isnt.

    But see, thanks for sharing your ignorance.
  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356

    Is SOE going to acquire the exclusive rights to Vanguard. If Vanguard is successful, probably. This depends on the fit of Vanguard into SOEs product line. Cadillac does not make an entry level car, GM leaves that to Chevrolet and Pontiac. Eventually people mature out of their Chevy subcompact, and want a little more spice in life, so they take a look at moving up to a Cadillac. That is how Cadillac fits into the GM product line. Similiarly, EQ 2 is SOEs entry level product into the MMORPG market, the direct competition to WOW. If Vanguard becomes the Cadillac of the line, why would Smedley not want to acquire exclusive rights? So he calls his friend Brad, and makes him a sweetheart offer. Do you really believe that Brad will turn up his nose at the offer and say, "Sorry John, but out of loyalty to the Vanguard community I have to turn down that boatload of money you offered me". If you think Brad will turn down the right offer, you've been playing fantasy games too long. And if you think Smedley will pass up a good addition to his product line, then you must believe that Sony hires morons to run their subsidiaries. And no matter what anyone says, Smedley didn't get where he is by being a moron.

     

  • mbbladembblade Member Posts: 747
    yea its a funny concept, they prolly hear peeps saying that it is peeps that used to work for verant which was bought up by SOE.  So they think they still do work there hence SOE employeess so SOE makes it lol

  • SonalanSonalan Member Posts: 46


    Originally posted by Agricola1

    The way I see it is, it's a bit like a company opening up a Kindergarden near you. The company has a disagreemnet with the shareholders and finds a party to buy them out, luckily this party shares their vision and agrees to help with the advertising as he has good media connections.
    Would you have a problem sending your kids there? Probably not. If you found out the new business partner (who's only real involvment is advertising as he doesn't hold enough shares to influence the business at the moment) was Michael Jackson and his name was plastered all over the Kindergarden would you still have no problem??


    I can't even find the words to describe your stuipidity. Compare a MMO to a kindergarden for one is just dumb. But i'll run with it.

    It's more like this company that loves michael jackson builds this kindergaren and upkeeps it....THAT IS ALL. They will run their thing inside the school while "shareholders" (which really arn't shareholders, just the town) perform maintance. I highly doubt SoE will plaster pictures of Smedley all over signs in VG.

    BTW, whats more stuipid? Making a game Vista only...or SoE publishing it?


    Originally posted by Agricola1

    I mean if you owned Ford and DeLorean came to you asking to help manufacture your cars wether he could do the job or not isn't a concern, the PR would kill your sales alone.?

    THEY ARN'T HELPING THEM MANUFACTURE IT! /wacks with the "i have no clue what i am talking about" stick
    They are helping them sell the cars and run the car lots.


    Originally posted by olddaddy

    Is SOE going to acquire the exclusive rights to Vanguard. If Vanguard is successful, probably. This depends on the fit of Vanguard into SOEs product line. Cadillac does not make an entry level car, GM leaves that to Chevrolet and Pontiac. Eventually people mature out of their Chevy subcompact, and want a little more spice in life, so they take a look at moving up to a Cadillac. That is how Cadillac fits into the GM product line. Similiarly, EQ 2 is SOEs entry level product into the MMORPG market, the direct competition to WOW. If Vanguard becomes the Cadillac of the line, why would Smedley not want to acquire exclusive rights? So he calls his friend Brad, and makes him a sweetheart offer. Do you really believe that Brad will turn up his nose at the offer and say, "Sorry John, but out of loyalty to the Vanguard community I have to turn down that boatload of money you offered me". If you think Brad will turn down the right offer, you've been playing fantasy games too long. And if you think Smedley will pass up a good addition to his product line, then you must believe that Sony hires morons to run their subsidiaries. And no matter what anyone says, Smedley didn't get where he is by being a moron.

    So tell me. If VG becomes successful then you think Smedley will try to buy it. Then why doesn't Smedley try to buy WoW from Blizzard? He has about an equal chance. The reason Verant allowed SoE to buy EQ from them is cause SoE was pulling the strings and giving deadline cuts. This is what ruined Planetside. Verant wasn't really in control of EQ so when SoE offered to buy EQ Verant allowed only because it wasn't "their game" and it would never be "their game". However, Sigil has no outside influence, noone telling them to get this crap out the door on X day. Meaning that content will be even better than EQ pre Luclin. So in the long run Sigil will get more money then Smedley could ever offer.

    You guys need to remember that SoE is creating the pretty boxes and putting them on the shelves and provideing/maintaining servers and THAT IS IT. Nothing else. They don't even get to suggest things. Not a single fuckin concept picture. How in gods creation could SoE play in a part of Sigils game sucking? I have no clue, but you seem to find excuses. Sony runs multiple games with multiple servers and imo they seem to know a hell of a lot more in server maintance/patching/marketing than any other company.

    I swear, u guys just purposley like to piss off people who are looking forward to games. Every time i come here to talk with other fans about a game it is just more and more depressing. 30 threads of "why your game suxxor and ours is 1337" and 2 threads of "why i love this game". What does that thread have? A couple people saying i can't wait for this game then 40 posts of people giving lame ass excuses of why it's gonna suck and half of them have no fucking clue of what they r talking about. It was the same when WoW and EQ2 was comming out and look, they r both pretty succesfull (granted more than the other).

    /rant off

  • SelothSeloth Member Posts: 388


    Originally posted by Sonalan


    You guys need to remember that SoE is creating the pretty boxes and putting them on the shelves and provideing/maintaining servers and THAT IS IT. Nothing else. They don't even get to suggest things. Not a single fuckin concept picture. How in gods creation could SoE play in a part of Sigils game sucking? I have no clue, but you seem to find excuses. Sony runs multiple games with multiple servers and imo they seem to know a hell of a lot more in server maintance/patching/marketing than any other company.



    Lets leave asside the bashing of SoE, or the cheerleading for the game for a minute.

    This paragraph is a truely head in the sand thinking. To say that a publisher, the server system engineers, the accounting staff, the marketing division, the technical support team (NOT the customer support staff) have no impact on teh success of a proctuct is silly.

    You want a good example that is not game related? look at IBM's O/S 2, it was clearly a better code base for an operation systme on many many levels when compared to windows that it was competing against. so why did it fail? simple. the greatest code in the code in the world will fail if the support team does not do thier jobs too. If you can nto convince the target market to buy your product then you are DOA.

    Now as it has been said before, lets get the head out of the sand on this. YES sigil is the code masters, they are the ones with the vision of a gmae that i think is fair to say is at the very least impressive and exciting. BUT to say that SoE can have no influence on the success is spot on wrong!

    SoE is the marketing arm for the game, IF they do the same marketing that they did at the release of SWG then i think there will be a problem. SoE relied on the name, then beleif in that if you build it the players will come. It was nto unlit they released the NGE that SoE finally started to have a marketing push to the masses. That was with a known IP, how would that kind of passive marketing work for a game with out an IP?

    SoE is the maintainers of the server farm, they are in the midst of a database switch over. I hope to gods that they are letting Sigil work hand in glove with the DBAs on this. But lets assuming the end of the world case. Vangard goes live and there is a problem with the code interacting with the back end Database that causes latency. the DBAs are going to say that the code needs fixing, the coders are going to say that the Database needs to be refined to accept thier code. (trust me this goes on all the time in real companies not just games).

    Sonalan do you want me to give you more examples of how your "publisher" can " How in gods creation could SoE play in a part of Sigils game sucking?"

    Seriously this game will rise or fall not jsut on the merits of the code, but how it is presented, and ran in the REAL WORLD.

    Let us all pray, hope, light a joss stick that this is a great and killer game, but lets do it with our eyes wide open and not stuck in the sand.

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    It amaze me the amount of "out of topics" subject about this game, everything to talk of out-of-game stuff.  Next on CNN, Brad uses a PUBLIC bathroom!  OMG!  The insanity!    Could talk about specific servers, content, a precise point, end-games options (which matter a LOT more than Brad seems to understand, giving everything to raiders, such a mistake) or anything else, even talking of the females avatars would be more related to the game! 

    SoE, in a support role, is always a positive contribution.  SoE has a support role for EQ and the game progress a LOT (yeah they take over with the Verant staff, basically SoE has merely a support role in EQ even if the old team become SoE).  SoE knows how to improve a game.  Get over it, Vanguard is worth X, you add about 5 to that value when it is supported by SoE, if X is worth little, adding 5 will still be small, if X is worth a lot, than adding 5 make it extremely nice, especially that the higher scores are hard to achieve.

    Now determining Vanguard value would be another topic in itself, full of vanbois and hatebois, that wouldn't help in the least to even have an idea of the worth of the game.  MS ditch them, SoE take them, I dunno, SoE take Matrix as well as EQ...it can be worth anything, but I have a negative pre-conception with their lack of non-raiding servers! 

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • SpiritofGameSpiritofGame Member UncommonPosts: 1,332

    To tell you the absolute truth, I actually PREFER using the Sony Station as a central processing point for Vanguard.

    I never had any problems at Sony Station and I like how they have a lot of info and features all in one place.

    However, should SOE keep its hands off Vanguard's development?  Yes, of course.

    Will they eventually buy Vanguard?  Frankly, even if they do buy Vanguard after two or three years and I do not like any changes they may make, I will probably be on my way to some other newer MMORPG by that time anyway.

    ~ Ancient Membership ~

  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356

    Hey Sonalan, nice rant, but you seem to not know very much about Sony. Firstoff, Smedley and SOE have survived a big bloodletting in Sony in which, for the first time in corporate history, the CEO is not Japanese. Sony has gone back to basics, eliminating tens of thousands of jobs, eliminating retired executive "consulting agreements" and limo service, and selling off a boatload of subsidiaries because (gasp) their stock fell to the lowest levels it has ever been at. It seems they became a market follower, rather than a market leader, and are back on the muscle, divesting themselves of non-growth and concentrating on growth areas. The fact that SOE survived this bloodletting means Sony is on the hunt in the MMORPG market, and is not the hunted. The fact that Smedley has teamed up with Brad shows that he understands perfectly well that in order for Sony to retain him as head of SOE he must be the hunter, and expand his market share. He expands his market share either by developing new products, or acquiring new products. The fact that he teamed up with Brad means that dialogue is open, not closed. EQ and past history has nothing to do with this, that was then and this is now. And Verant never allowed SOE to buy EQ, Sony owned Verant from the get go. EQ 2 and SWG were dumbed down to compete with WOW, and to attract newer, younger market. This was not an accident on SOE's part, but was a business strategy. The fact that it turned out the way it did in SWG is what Smedley refers to in an inteview when he says they made some mistakes. If he could acquire WOW, he would, but there is no dialogue open there, so he turned EQ 2 into it's competition.  He does not need two WOW clones in his marketing mix to compete against each other. He does need a game in his marketing mix to move upscale to a more mature market. The answer to your question is the same answer as why does Ford not buy Chevrolet. He has dialogue with Brad, if you didn't notice, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

    Next time, before you get pissed off and make sweeping statement, consult the Wall Street Journal, and learn something about the subject corporation and the corporate officers. I stand by my statement, if Vanguard is successful Smedley will make an offer to acquire the rights to the game. He must either grow SOE's market share and profits in accordance with Sony expectations, or he's looking for a new job. This partnership with Brad is a major step in growing that market share, and it give Vanguard access to the costly infrastructure SOE can provide. A sale of Vanguard to SOE will give Brad what he wants, the capital to develope another product. Brad is a game designer, not a babysitter of an existing game. He will ultimately be bored babysitting Vanguard once it is successful, and will want to move on to a new project. Developing these games isn't cheap...and it is in SOE's interest as much as Brads to make sure this project goes smoothly and works. Any more major screwups and Smedley could find himself looking for a new job, Sony is not very foregiving...the fact that Smedley even acknowledges some mistakes would cost other executives in other companies their jobs, how many mistakes do you think Smedley can make until it costs him his?

  • VindicothVindicoth Member Posts: 273


    Originally posted by olddaddy

    Hey Sonalan, nice rant, but you seem to not know very much about Sony. Firstoff, Smedley and SOE have survived a big bloodletting in Sony in which, for the first time in corporate history, the CEO is not Japanese. Sony has gone back to basics, eliminating tens of thousands of jobs, eliminating retired executive "consulting agreements" and limo service, and selling off a boatload of subsidiaries because (gasp) their stock fell to the lowest levels it has ever been at. It seems they became a market follower, rather than a market leader, and are back on the muscle, divesting themselves of non-growth and concentrating on growth areas. The fact that SOE survived this bloodletting means Sony is on the hunt in the MMORPG market, and is not the hunted. The fact that Smedley has teamed up with Brad shows that he understands perfectly well that in order for Sony to retain him as head of SOE he must be the hunter, and expand his market share. He expands his market share either by developing new products, or acquiring new products. The fact that he teamed up with Brad means that dialogue is open, not closed. EQ and past history has nothing to do with this, that was then and this is now. And Verant never allowed SOE to buy EQ, Sony owned Verant from the get go. EQ 2 and SWG were dumbed down to compete with WOW, and to attract newer, younger market. This was not an accident on SOE's part, but was a business strategy. The fact that it turned out the way it did in SWG is what Smedley refers to in an inteview when he says they made some mistakes. If he could acquire WOW, he would, but there is no dialogue open there, so he turned EQ 2 into it's competition.  He does not need two WOW clones in his marketing mix to compete against each other. He does need a game in his marketing mix to move upscale to a more mature market. The answer to your question is the same answer as why does Ford not buy Chevrolet. He has dialogue with Brad, if you didn't notice, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.
    Next time, before you get pissed off and make sweeping statement, consult the Wall Street Journal, and learn something about the subject corporation and the corporate officers. I stand by my statement, if Vanguard is successful Smedley will make an offer to acquire the rights to the game. He must either grow SOE's market share and profits in accordance with Sony expectations, or he's looking for a new job. This partnership with Brad is a major step in growing that market share, and it give Vanguard access to the costly infrastructure SOE can provide. A sale of Vanguard to SOE will give Brad what he wants, the capital to develope another product. Brad is a game designer, not a babysitter of an existing game. He will ultimately be bored babysitting Vanguard once it is successful, and will want to move on to a new project. Developing these games isn't cheap...and it is in SOE's interest as much as Brads to make sure this project goes smoothly and works. Any more major screwups and Smedley could find himself looking for a new job, Sony is not very foregiving...the fact that Smedley even acknowledges some mistakes would cost other executives in other companies their jobs, how many mistakes do you think Smedley can make until it costs him his?

    I'm gonna quote this, so I can prove you wrong in 2 years like I did that guy about WoW.

    see http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/29582/page/1
  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356
    No problem Sordan, just as long as you also give credit where credit is due in two years. And, if I'm wrong in two years, I'll have no problem admitting it. That is why I said I stand by my statement. I am curious though, what statement was made two years ago about WOW that you disagreed with...?
  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356

    Deleted, duplicate post

  • olddaddyolddaddy Member Posts: 3,356
    No problem Vindicloth, in two years we will see, as long as you're also willing to give credit where credit is due. In two years if I am wrong, I'll admit it, no problem, as I admit that I am not infallible and can make mistakes. That's actually something I have to tip my hat to Smedley on, so many people in today's world are afraid to admit to mistakes. Out of curiousuty though, are you also Sordan, posting under two different names?
  • TenebrosoTenebroso Member Posts: 262


    Originally posted by Mandy


    I keep seeing people reffer to Vanguard as a SOE game, and im wondering why. I know the creators of Vanguard are some of the designers from the first EQ. After that all I know is its Sigil games as the developer not SOE.
    So now am I missing something?


    Yes you are bro, SOE is now the publisher, which i dont know what the big deal is, since they will only help distribute and fund the game, all the creative concepts and rights are still Sigil's.
  • VindicothVindicoth Member Posts: 273



    Originally posted by olddaddy
    No problem Vindicloth, in two years we will see, as long as you're also willing to give credit where credit is due. In two years if I am wrong, I'll admit it, no problem, as I admit that I am not infallible and can make mistakes. That's actually something I have to tip my hat to Smedley on, so many people in today's world are afraid to admit to mistakes. Out of curiousuty though, are you also Sordan, posting under two different names?

    Heh, nope.
  • oramiooramio Member Posts: 121
    Well it is SOE publishing it, although game is developed by Sigil. And I think a big name behind a game helps in selling (ignoring the infamous SOE and MMORPG genre relationship problems here for this case ).

    I am not saying that this is good for a startup company or so, but be sure, careful people interested in the genre do not miss the details that easily!


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