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Who agrees with this statement?
So on the WoW boards Tseric made a broad statement regarding the upcoming change to make both factions all have the same classes:
Quoted from his post in this thread http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=9323665&P=1 :
One more time. With Shaman and Paladins relegated to
a single faction, the issue was primarily two competing design
philosophies:
Rock/Paper/Scissors for all classes but Shaman/Paladin
Class comparison in a one-to-one manner for just these two classes(Shaman/Pally).
Competing design philosophy in a game will inevitably ruin the
game. These were two design philosophies driving classes away from each
other.
It's not about "being creative enough", it's a fact of reality from
the design angle. More ingenuity isn't going to make it work. It just
won't work no matter how you slice it.
So who agrees with his statement? Is it as cut and dry as he makes it out to be? Are these two "philosophies" actually competing? Are competing design goals actually bad or can they create a useful tension? Maybe he means contradictory goals which I would say you can't have.
Personally someone who makes abolsute statements like that better be able to back it up with a proof or at least a well reasoned and persuasive essay. I'm not impressed by people just making up rules. In my opinion I do not think these were even competing goals since there are usually multiple paths to the same "role".
Quoted from his post in this thread http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=9323665&P=1 :
One more time. With Shaman and Paladins relegated to
a single faction, the issue was primarily two competing design
philosophies:
Rock/Paper/Scissors for all classes but Shaman/Paladin
Class comparison in a one-to-one manner for just these two classes(Shaman/Pally).
Competing design philosophy in a game will inevitably ruin the
game. These were two design philosophies driving classes away from each
other.
It's not about "being creative enough", it's a fact of reality from
the design angle. More ingenuity isn't going to make it work. It just
won't work no matter how you slice it.
So who agrees with his statement? Is it as cut and dry as he makes it out to be? Are these two "philosophies" actually competing? Are competing design goals actually bad or can they create a useful tension? Maybe he means contradictory goals which I would say you can't have.
Personally someone who makes abolsute statements like that better be able to back it up with a proof or at least a well reasoned and persuasive essay. I'm not impressed by people just making up rules. In my opinion I do not think these were even competing goals since there are usually multiple paths to the same "role".
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The real question is....
Why is this being posted here?
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"It's not about "being creative enough", it's a fact of reality from the design angle. More ingenuity isn't going to make it work. It just won't work no matter how you slice it."
I don't think there is much ingenuity in World of Warcraft to begin with. It is a very well made mmorpg that basically incorporates many older game mechanics and puts them all together, in some case improving them.
I'm not sure I completely understand what's being said in the OP, but if I am correct, it has to do with making all classes playable by each race. I think that would be a shame, not for any design angle or gameplay mechanic, but because I think it would take away from the personality of each faction.
It sounds to me like Blizzard may be getting tired of hearing all of the gripes and whining from players and their classes, and are just going to try and make everything equal for everyone.
Dark Age of Camelot may have taken a very long time to balance their classes and realms, but I think it is working. So Mythic may have sliced it just the right way.
Lazy f'ing devs, but not unexpected from the current Blizzard.
the makes a very good attempt at leading someones opinion, but thats all.
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god fix this double post BS already
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
You seem to be saying that this is a practical decision, he is saying it was a theoretical neccessity. Basically an impossibility. Do you think he was exaggerating? He stated that the faction flavor was the reason for their original difference and this was thought valuable enough to make class design more complex (well he didn't state as well I am). But now they have apparently come to the conclusion that the min/max strategy of their end-game is not compatable with this idea. At least if we assume Tseric is not blowing smoke out his posterior.
Is factional balance a myth then? Is it just too hard to make different strategies effective for the same goal? Or is this an artifact of their semi-factional approach they took (ie. all classes but one avialble to a each faction)? Or are they just wrong?
There are always factional gripes in any game. Even Eve where anyone can fly whatever faction they choose (conceivably being able to fly all factions) you get all sorts of gripes. But these are often a matter of people mistaking their personal preferences as facts. Some are correct though. And designers do make mistakes. Nothing is perfect.
It is highly likely that any factional game will have at least some iniquities. Can they be minimized sufficiently to be insignificant? Is the extra flavor worth it if not? Is the almost certain complaining by people who don't bother to see the other side an issue? Is it possible or practical to distinguish valid analysis from invalid complaints?
So would I.
As far as blue statements go, after I watched a blue post try to convince the players thar Sand is a valuable resource in the middle of a desert, and the Fed-Ex'ing of such sand is world PvP, they lost my redability along with the accounts of my guildmates who were still playing.
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Everything should not be balanced. Everything should not be fair. I'm getting sick and tired of the whining the WoW community does simply because they can't be the best at every single aspect of the fricking game. Grow some. Life is not balanced. Perfect balance IS NOT FUN. Why do the Devs listen to this nonsense? WHY?!? Dear god Blizzard. I know one of the staples of a buisness is the phrase "the customer is always right", but that doesn't mean you have to bend over for the vocal minority (which is mostly composed of idiots and crybabies).
All that being said.
I support the cross faction classes.
I know, I'm a horrible person.
I think the key idea above all else that is said there was BALANCE....
I am so BEYOND tired of hearing about balance, class A has to be balanced with class B, faction A has to be balanced with faction B, weapon and gear A has to be balanced with weapon and gear B....
OMG !!! Enough with the balancing already. Whethers it's WoW, EQ2 or SWG, the idea of damned balanced game will ruin every single innovative idea that will ever come down the turn pike in future games.
Listen, I don't want a balanced character, I want a character that can grow and learn as I grow and learn, I want a class OR SKILLS SETS, that can do their purpose properly the way they are supposed to work. Let MY skill be the balancing point.
Who in their right mind thinks that a Warrior should be balanced with a Priestess !!! WTF ARE THEY THINKING! Why should both factions be equal? Why can't one have an advantage in numbers and the other in power? Why can't one weapon be better then another at end game.
Blah... I just don't get it. Personally, I see this as that one thing that will make or break so many future MMO's. And the worst part about it is that it's not the dev's forcing stupid freaking balance on us, it's the PLAYER BASE that keep moaning that their Wizzard in EQ2 isn't as strong as the Warlock... so they yell Balance!!!.
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I have no problem with what you are saying. But there is more to the players reactions than just wanting to be uber. Its also about them wanting one thing and being told another.
Oh I completely agree with you gest but let think about that. If your developing a large game on the same scale as WoW, EQ2 or Vanguard and you write a Class Description for a Priest: Exclent Healer, Support Buffing. That seems pretty clear.
But then add 250k active players to the mix and things change pretty quickly. What does being an excelent healy entail exactly, are there secondary healers, are they just as good, what is support buffing, is it needed, can they survive on their own?
On and on it can go but the point is that I can almost guarantee to you that there will be different variations on what the descriptions means almost every single time.
So yes of course it's important that the development company attempts to be as clear as possible when it comes to explaining what classes do what and why but I think as a player base we have to understand, they are only human and their trying to please large numbers of people. Which to me only re-inforces that balances is just a completely lost cause.
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Things are supposed to be imbalanced, come on people... It is just like real life, things aernt always balanced! If your so upset about it, pick a different class! That doesn't satisfy you? Well, get better gear! the whole freakin game revolves around gear anyways. You know, its rather pathetic people complain about balance inssues in MMOs, I mean I could understand a little in RTS games...becuase in RTS games....you cant just get a bunch of gear and be better then everyone else...But come on people...
Horde paladins...thats funny.
Alliance shamans...oh god....
Alliance shamans may not make sense, but Draenei shamans certainly do.
Horde paladins may not make sense either, but Blood Elves paladins...well...
They had priest so it kind of makes sense.
Ya, because DAoC doesn't have totally different classes PER REALM or anything.
Don't get me wrong Blizzard, you guys made a solid game, but you sure are lazy considering the amount of money you rake in per month. If you guys aren't trying to balance the classes or add new content, I'd love to know what you are all doing over there....actually, nevermind..I don't want to know. Blizzard should have plenty of people to both create the expansion and fix the balancing issues.
My only prayer for WoW is that the expansion "fixes" the end game raiding issues we more casual players have with the game.
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Alliance shamans may not make sense, but Draenei shamans certainly do.
Horde paladins may not make sense either, but Blood Elves paladins...well...
They had priest so it kind of makes sense.
I disagree, I don't think blood elf paladins make sense at all. Blood elves get there magic from demons now, correct? I always thought paladins got there magic from some sort of holy god of righteousness, flowers, sunshine and rainbow colored flags. Priests I believe just use Arcana or something right?
Draenei shamans make sense yeah...but I think they should have just made new classes instead....idiotic blizzard.
Conference at blizzard:
Developer Bob: So I was thinking...Draenei should probably get shammies....because they are a very shamanistic race you know.
Developer Frank: Yes, but then it would be imbalanced...because horde wouldn't have paladins...
President and CEO of blizzard: LETS JUST GIVE BLOOD ELVES PALADIN, SO ITS ALL EVEN! :P
Developer Bob: Yes, but how would that fit in with lore?....
President and CEO of blizzard: ....Whats this....lore you speak of...
-long silence-
Developer Frank: You know...the basis of WoW?...
President and CEO of blizzard:....oh look, we just made another 500 million dollars on WoW!
Developer Bob: Sweet!
Developer Frank: Eh, elf pally, no one will give it a second thought....lore, lol....While were at it lets make the draenei arrive on azeroth on a....MAGICAL SPACE SHIP!!!!
Developer Bob: lol! sweet....
-game actually gets created with the magical space ship-
Developer frank: Omg they actually made it? I was just messing around....lol....
Developer Bob: oh...oh well, no one will give it a second thought I'm sure...
President and CEO of blizzard:.....money.....Mooooneeey......$__$....
Dev 2: "Hmm.. new classes.. lots of work... Why don't we just give Shamans to the Alliance and Paladins to the Horde, and let that suffice as being 'new classes'?
Dev 1: "Brilliant!"
... is about what I reckon it equates to. Easy way to cop out of doing something revolutionary for the expansion. I mean.. what groundbreaking new element does the expansion bring? Diablo-style sockets? New skins on the same classes?
Meh.. pass.
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Oh. My. God.
faction specific classes ruining the game...
No. I disagree not with you kyoruto but with Blizard for being so (lame, unimaginative, uncreative,boring) that they have to give horde pallies and alliance shammys. I think thats what the OP is reffering to.
For most of DAOC's online Career I think they balanced classes very well....and each realm had COMPLETELY different classes. Why cant bliz do the same? Cause it has to cater to ANYONE?
I think what is an "impossiblity" from a conceptual view is the idea of class balance, even in the rock-paper-sissors (RPS) context. How many games have tried to achive it, how many have succeeded? Many and none.
I think Developers need to focus their efforts on designing classes that are *useful*. Start with an idea of what you want a class to do, then make it so that it can do that thing very well... even if that thing is Jack-of-all-trades. If you make it well, and the class fulfills a needed function, then the "build it and they will come" function will kick in.
Just make sure people know what they are getting when they commit to a class. Yeah, that will be based on the information the Devs provide, and if they provide crappy information, then there will be a lot of pissed off players running around.
I'm of the opinion that skill based systems tend to be a better deal, but the problem is that people can't tell at a glance if you'll be able to fill a needed niche in a group. OTOH, it allows for a great deal more freedom, flexibility, and variation between players.
I think that the RPS system is useful, but it shouldn't be slavishly adhered to -- certainly not to the point of destroying the unique flavor each class should bring to the table.
2363 posts and no reading comprehension....
Somehow Im not shocked.
Its always been a myth. If you're going to have 2+ different things. You're not going to acheave balance. Its impossable, but at the same time you can do the best to try to balance and give that fasade that it is truely so. But this gimic is trying to shortcut and hope to stop people complaining.
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