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A WARNING about Horizons Billing
dolphin666
Member UncommonPosts: 55
THis is a repost of an irc log about the current billing situation at Horizons. As a fan of this game, it does feel awful to start a thread warning curent & upcoming players of the situation. But seeing as though the Horizons people have been quiet about this situation, I thought it a good idea to post it.
Quote:
'This is a cleaned up version of the discussion that took place in the
#Horizons IRC channel last night. Side conversations and comments that
violate the forum rules were removed, but none of the comments made by
the participants have been changed in any way.
Some additional discussion about the future of the game and some
technical issues occured at the end of the conversation; those were
left in since they are Horizons-related topics which may be of interest
to the players.
This was not a private conversation; it was a discussion on a public
channel, therefor the new policy regarding not posting private messages
does not apply.'
*****
(20:13:15) DANU_EI: Hi all
(20:13:16) gopher: How's the billing situation going? Any word?
(20:13:20) DANU_EI: Howdy Gopher
(20:13:27) DANU_EI: I read your posts
(20:13:41) DANU_EI: Billing is always a challenge
(20:14:12) gopher: Please post something then Danu
(20:14:19) gopher: At least a "we are looking into this"
(20:14:25) DANU_EI: The first issue is security, then accuracy and convenience follows pretty quickly on the tail of it
(20:14:33) gopher: It will help to reassure your player base if you do so.
(20:14:57) DANU_EI: Dark has made some comemnts and is going to run a post
(20:15:25) DANU_EI: Let me say we have had many reports of duplicate and erroneous trial billings under the old provider
(20:16:18) DANU_EI: The new hybrid system will allow secure entry via paypal, which if you ues prudently apperas very safe.
(20:16:19) gopher: I have seen no posts on the forums by Dark
(20:16:40) DANU_EI: In news and on forums later this evening whilst trolls sleep
(20:16:41) AA0: Danu.. there was a old bug that existed that billed
trial accounts, but was fixed, the complaints still come because it was
recent
(20:17:50) Abus_Altar: sry I won't use paypal it is not secure
(20:18:04) DANU_EI: AAO send me a pm i love to listen
(20:18:12) Frid`s-laptop: what is 'not secure' about paypal?
(20:18:29) Abus_Altar: too many scam run against it request info
(20:18:30) DANU_EI: Abus we will disagree but will agree to direct bill you and accept your check
(20:19:20) Abus_Altar: I had 3 such scam that tryed to claim being from paypal
(20:19:29) DANU_EI: Abus if you particpate in a scam email request from
chase bank or paypal that is the problem not your data being left
unsecure at paypal
(20:20:04) DANU_EI: I have received dozens a week from many institutions
(20:20:04) Abus_Altar: what about a simple secure CC eb=ntry site?
(20:20:27) Plink: Why not both?
(20:20:33) Abus_Altar: that is all we really need
(20:20:50) Abus_Altar: but has to secure
(20:20:58) Abus_Altar: be*
(20:21:09) DANU_EI: we are planning a new set of options including
direct pay and secure entry, these will take time to go through
verification
(20:22:13) Seranthor: At the risk of sounding snarky and incuring wrath
from you wouldn't that have been advisable to do prior to
implementation of this new billing system?
(20:22:38) DANU_EI: I encourage anyone who is concerned to PM myself
and I will figure out a way to accept your form of payment , I could
use bronze bars on my hatchling in order
(20:23:34) DANU_EI: Seranthor at the risk of being snape like I suggest
Horizons didn't have 3 months for me to authenticate servers before we
closed the purchae!
(20:24:56) Seranthor: as it currently stands I cant see when my current
3 subs are due for billing next, and respectfully I refuse to give my
CC info to Paypall or enter it in a non-secure system.
(20:25:05) AA0: Does that mean secure CC billing isn't coming for a while?
(20:25:11) DANU_EI: I apologize for upset to anyone this has caused,
(20:25:36) Solanaceae: DANU_EI: Can you clarify how to update billing
information for accounts that have more than one subcription attached?
(20:25:47) DANU_EI: seranthor please PM me I will get dates and
(20:25:56) Solanaceae: http://horizons.eiinteractive.com/account_update.htm mentions per-subscription but not how to do so.
(20:25:57) DANU_EI: respond
(20:26:25) Peaches: I have notified Danu about accounts that are linked
(20:26:36) Solanaceae: ah, kk.
(20:26:41) Ophelea: AA0, the issues caused with the billing Tulga just
went through were caused by Pay-by-Touch coming into federal
compliance. As of today, that is no longer the case. This is will not
last for long as banks will beging refusing the ability for Horizons
customers to use credit cards to pay for their subscriptions.
(20:26:58) DANU_EI: we are working on linked accounts to make this easier for you all
(20:27:27) Ophelea: The FDIC will not allow a grace period for the compliance as the grace period has passed.
(20:27:41) AA0: This just isn't acceptable..
(20:27:51) Peaches: pardon me? what right do banks have to not allow us to charge for horizons?
(20:28:02) Ophelea: they issue your credit cards
(20:28:10) Solanaceae: Ophelea: So you're saying that fed law now
prevents me from buying subscriptions to online games using my visa
card?
(20:28:17) AA0: yep, you have to handle things how they say. Period.
(20:28:20) Peaches: or my debit card??
(20:28:47) Ophelea: they will not take the responsibility of unsecure transactions when they're liable for the charges
(20:28:51) AA0: Only if the billing procedure isn't compliant
(20:29:04) Ophelea: so, if the billing isn't compliant, they will not approve the vendor
(20:29:19) DANU_EI: I think the simple solution is if you are
uncomfortable with paypal we will have customer service help you
through it with direct pay
(20:29:21) AA0: Don't worry, it like only takes a month to set up paypal
(20:29:35) Ophelea: hence the changes Tulga went through with
Pay-by-Touch who waited until the last week of the grace period to
become compliant
(20:29:52) Ophelea: At the moment, Horizons is not only not compliant, but inherently unsafe
(20:29:57) DANU_EI: paypal accounts are able to be established by a customer immediately'
(20:30:08) gopher: Danu: that is not true
(20:30:13) Peaches: I really find it hard to believe that they can tell
us what we can and cant charge, but I will wait and see, meanwhile,
Danu, I am at a loss as how to approach this n ow with my accounts
(20:30:15) gopher: Paypal accounts have to be verified
(20:30:22) Solanaceae: Ophelea: Can you give me something to google so
I can know if I need to write an angry letter to shelly berkley or not?
(20:30:23) gopher: it takes a month to verify them
(20:30:25) AA0: yes, which takes a month
(20:30:29) Abus_Altar: that is true gopher
(20:30:35) Peaches: my husband opened ojn etoday and it is all set to be used
(20:30:49) DANU_EI: I s there anone who has a specific question for me?
(20:30:50) gopher: so anyone wanting to join HZ will now have to wait a month to be able to pay
(20:31:04) gopher: they will have to be REALLY interested in the game to do that
(20:31:06) Peaches: <Peaches> I really find it hard to believe
that they can tell us what we can and cant charge, but I will wait and
see, meanwhile, Danu, I am at a loss as how to approach this n ow with
my accounts
(20:31:26) gopher: Frankly, I think you just screwed yourself out of a future playerbase though ignorance and incompetence
(20:31:27) Peaches: can I use credit card with pay pal for horizons?
(20:31:29) gopher: but that's just me:P
(20:31:30) Ophelea: Peaches.....your BANK takes all the risk for your credit card.
(20:31:31) DANU_EI: No you can log into paypal and use your credit card immediately!
(20:31:34) gopher: yes Peaches
(20:31:36) Dotcher: Solanaceae: http://usa.visa.com/business/accepting_visa/ops_risk_management/cisp.html are the requirements
(20:31:38) Abus_Altar: will there be a secure CC site?
(20:31:38) Ophelea: Not you
(20:31:40) Peaches: thank you danu
(20:31:42) Lycaunoss: you need secure CC transactions DANU or you are going to lose half the subs
(20:31:43) Solanaceae: Dotcher: Thank you.
(20:31:55) AA0: half.. at least
(20:32:09) Lycaunoss: that's not optional in most peoples minds
(20:32:14) Peaches: aao, its the banks fault, not Danu's fault
(20:32:15) DANU_EI: secure cc transactionsa re available thru a paypal screen thie minute
(20:32:19) Dotcher: http://horizons.eiinteractive.com/update_cc.htm is out of compliance on points 3 and 4 of Protect Cardholder Data, at the very least
(20:32:22) AA0: It is EI's fault
(20:32:25) Ophelea: So, if EII does not provide a compliant site, your
BANK will not allow charges to be made because it puts your credit card
number out there on the net
(20:32:32) Lycaunoss: in addition to the feeling of unease that if you cannot have secure updates how can the info be secure
(20:32:33) gopher: Danu: only people in the US can use that Paypal system you set up I believe
(20:32:38) Anti_Eden: unfortunately, the half that continues to
subscribe will do so due to lack of understanding the consequences of
using an unsecure credit card transaction ofrm online.
(20:32:39) Ophelea: right now, credit card numbers can be captured.....
(20:32:45) gopher: so no austrialian players for isntance
(20:32:53) DANU_EI: We have a large number of international accounts at Savage eden
(20:33:06) AA0: they will only sub until the bank shuts them down
(20:33:08) DANU_EI: Using the same billing system
(20:33:16) Ophelea: Danu, enter your information and I'll read it all back to you, letter by letter
(20:33:20) gopher: oh? I could be wrong about that I suppose
(20:33:36) tramsan: Wait a sec. The new billig system uses ordinary, unencrypted HTTP for credit card forms?
(20:33:42) Anti_Eden: yes Trams
(20:33:44) Ophelea: it uses text
(20:33:46) tramsan: ...
(20:33:56) gopher: Yes trmasan
(20:34:01) Lycaunoss: sorry Danu my credit info is so wicked important
to me paypal doesn't cut it and right now EI doesn't either
(20:34:03) tramsan: Wow. Fabulous.
(20:34:03) DANU_EI: Can I suggest the paypal system is easy and secure?
(20:34:05) gopher: please do not put in your CC info:P
(20:34:07) Lycaunoss: I'm not willing to put myself at risk
(20:34:16) tramsan: Not a flipping chance, gopher. =P
(20:34:20) Tathar: Also Danu, a billing system that isn't secure isn't a good idea
(20:34:31) gopher: Danu: until you get a secure system, just take down the insecure system. Leave the paypal one up:P
(20:34:40) tramsan: What gopher said.
(20:34:55) tramsan: If you can't provide adequate security, you should remove the option entirely.
(20:35:06) DANU_EI: OK so if someone wants to play and doesn't trust paypal we will provide a direct bill option.
(20:35:40) Ophelea: Danu, it's not only that it's not secure, it's out of compliance
(20:35:49) Ophelea: you're breaking the law simply by offering it
(20:36:04) Abus_Altar: sry my 5 accounts will not be renewed untill there is a secure cc site
(20:36:09) Steelclaw: dude, your site is broken
(20:36:13) gopher: LOL
(20:36:18) Plink: hehhe
(20:37:05) Dotcher: That server is also claiming that it runs Apache
1.3.20, which is known to have remote code execution vulnerabilities...
if the data is being stored on that server, then there's a good chance
even a not very skilled attacker would be able to get to it and read it
(20:37:08) Steelclaw: do you think you can take down the update forms untill you can get a https server up?
(20:37:11) gopher: it is just flowing right over his head!
(20:37:21) Ophelea: Correct, Dotcher
(20:37:22) ***gopher shakes danu, trying to make him understand
(20:37:34) Steelclaw: so people that dont know any better arent sending their financial info unencrypted?
(20:37:34) Dotcher: and if I'm reading the text correctly (I'm not a
FrontPage expert by any means), the data is being captured to that
server
(20:39:36) Anti_Eden: using that unsecure form is the same concept as
writing your account information on the front window of your house.
it's only "secure" if people aren't looking. If someone decided to turn
their head and notice, you're screwed.
(20:39:46) DANU_EI: ok i think I have heard desires of these troops
(20:39:51) Dotcher: and even if you use PayPal, http://horizons.eiinteractive.com/account_update.htm is just as insecure... I'd rather not have my home address going out on the wire unencrypted, either
(20:40:07) Steelclaw: heh desires?
(20:40:29) Steelclaw: no. we're telling you something is broken, we're
telling you how to fix it. its not a desire. its covering your ass
(20:40:30) Ophelea: Danu, the apache version you're using means that the paypal address is open to capture
(20:41:02) Ophelea: they're not indicating desires...it's security deficient
(20:41:19) DANU_EI: we will turn off cc entry and allow the form to
become printable in next several hours and use snail mail to carry that
information to EI office.the f
(20:41:21) Lycaunoss: yep this is not a desire it's a total deal breaker
(20:41:22) Khoal: If the Apache version is open to capture... can anyone be certain CC data hasn't already been stolen?
(20:41:45) SnarkyElvis: another good question Khoal.
(20:41:52) Dotcher: Khoal, there's no guarantee
(20:41:55) Peaches: we went directly to paypal to create an account
(20:41:59) ***Ophelea cringes
(20:42:00) AA0: wow, thats gonna lose so many subs
(20:42:00) Lycaunoss: why not just set up a secure site?
(20:42:06) AA0: like.. wow
(20:42:35) Frid`s-laptop: well, besides the little to no interest in HZ
by and large, and little outside knowledge of the flaw to begine with...
(20:43:31) AA0: I'm not mailing my cc info anywhere either
(20:43:37) Abus_Altar: I love game this but I'm not willing to risk my security
(20:44:15) Kumu_Honua: CC by snail mail?
(20:44:34) DANU_EI: Well if someone wishes to continue playing we will accept a check in the mail as well....
(20:44:39) Kumu_Honua: The moo will no longer be in Istaria.
(20:45:17) Frid`s-laptop: hopefully it won't take very long to get a secure site up.
(20:45:20) Steelclaw: looks like your (old) apache server can handle secure pages. ... uh on second thought, dont do that.
(20:45:22) Tathar: Danu: We need https for credit card forms, not http.
(20:45:40) Steelclaw: openssl 0.96b
(20:45:43) Tathar: that's essentially what's being said
(20:45:46) DANU_EI: Understood
(20:46:17) Steelclaw: i know theres a worm that exploits an old version of apache+openssl of that vintage
(20:46:36) Ophelea: SC, correct. That's what Dotcher was saying.
(20:46:40) Steelclaw: yeilds a remote compromise
(20:46:48) Tathar: I have a couple weeks left on my subscription for you to work it out
(20:46:48) Steelclaw: not root
(20:47:08) Steelclaw: but if you're storing credit card info in a file readble by the httpd, its just as bad
(20:47:29) Dotcher: there's at least one remote execution vuln in that version, I didn't dig through the release notes for more
(20:47:31) DANU_EI: We will accept paypal as a secure form of entering
creit card payments and direct billing outside of web environment
(20:48:00) Steelclaw: that works for now
(20:48:03) Kumu_Honua: Paypal requires that you have a bank account. I do not have a bank account. Still no moo.
(20:48:09) ***Tathar would rather not use paypal...
(20:48:13) Abus_Altar: so then there is no chance of a secure CC site ?
(20:48:15) Steelclaw: just get the insecure forms off.
(20:48:37) DANU_EI: We are willing to have a customer service rep post your account manually and receive your check
(20:48:39) ***Tathar knows that secure credit card forms are not impossible, other sites do it.
(20:48:57) Khoal: 0.o Manually?!
(20:49:16) DANU_EI: we will add secure credit card in future, Paypal is here now
(20:49:17) gopher: Kumu, I don't think Paypal requires you have a bank
account. You can enter either bank or credit card info for them
(20:49:22) Steelclaw: heh whether they can do it or not isnt the issue
right now. the issue is that there are people using those insecure
forms and transmitting their financial data in plaintext
(20:49:28) Seranthor: DANU_EI how soon into the future?
(20:49:29) Kumu_Honua: They do gopher. At least the last time I looked into it.
(20:49:34) DANU_EI: Verification of system and site is under way.
(20:49:42) Peaches: thank you Danu
(20:49:45) DANU_EI: and takes weeks
(20:49:46) ***Tathar thinks that secure credit card forms are a necessity now, not later
(20:49:49) Steelclaw: take them down now.
(20:49:57) Anti_Eden: i'm not trying to be snarky here. i'm sincerely
curious. who's the server guy at EI? Did he really and truly believe
that setting up an unsecure credit card form was acceptable? Because
I'm finding it hard to believe that there would such little respect for
the playerbase. What was the reasoning for this unsecure site to be
allowed to go live at all?
(20:49:59) gopher: ... hmmmm.... as far as I know, I didn't enter any bank account info into Paypal. let me go check
(20:50:26) tramsan: Paypal works fine with only a cc card.
(20:50:41) tramsan: I've used it like that myself once, a long time ago. =P
(20:50:41) Vel: There remains a problem with sending a check via the
mail and having someone enter it "manually" into the system. That still
gives you my bank account information in what is obviously not a secure
setting.
(20:50:43) DANU_EI: I believe a credit card is minimum requirement for paypal not a bank account
(20:50:43) LO: Why are the vulnerable pages still up and why am I
unable to access my account iformation when my subscriptions are paid
until January?
(20:51:21) DANU_EI: your bank account information is not entered into a server.....your payment is poted as received
(20:51:37) Kumu_Honua: Either way. Paypal is not an option I am comfortable with. No moo.
(20:51:38) DANU_EI: posted
(20:52:00) gopher: "[19:46] <DANU_EI> I believe a credit card is
minimum requirement for paypal not a bank account" I believe you are
correct on this at least. Either a CC or a Bank account. You don't need
both
(20:52:03) DANU_EI: So moo... send me an email as to how yo wish to pay.
(20:52:07) Ophelea: LO, That requires nightly synching with Pay-by-Touch
(20:52:47) gopher: Ah, so EI was unwilling to continue dishing out money to PbT
?(20:52:58) Anti_Eden: a moo-less Istaria isn't an Istaria at all......
(20:53:14) Kumu_Honua: Danu - It's simple. I wish to pay by credit card.
(20:53:45) Kumu_Honua: Securly. Without a 3 day wait period between "You can't log in" and "We have now received your payment".
(20:53:46) Ophelea: No, there were unfinished changes with Pay-by-Touch
that are still on Blight and others taht were never delta'd in
(20:53:59) Tathar: Same as Kumu.
(20:54:14) Ophelea: Without the ability to prop the changes, they couldn't continue to use PbT
(20:55:09) Solanaceae: I want to pay with my visa card, like I did
before, like how I do in every other game I play. Without having to
have extra stuff that can fail, break, and double charge my card.
(20:55:20) Plink: What about those of us that paid by credit card
BEFORE the announcement about today? How do I know my information is
SAFE?
(20:55:40) Seranthor: exactly what Solanaceae said, goes the same for my 3 accts.
(20:55:46) DANU_EI: Information is purged from server into site
(20:55:54) DANU_EI: into on site fiel
(20:56:22) Plink: You're not convincing me DANU. You don't even sound like you know what you're talking about. Sorry.
(20:56:39) DANU_EI: What is your question
(20:56:54) Plink: What about those of us that paid by credit card
BEFORE the announcement about today? How do I know my information is
SAFE?
(20:56:57) tramsan: The truth is, Plink, you can't be.
(20:57:11) Blue:
(20:57:13) DANU_EI: Plink you can ask CTO any question you wish
(20:57:16) tramsan: If it was unencrypted anything could have happened to it.
(20:57:25) LO: Now that you have stated that you are aware of the
vulnerability of the site pages, are you accepting responsability for
any theft or misuse of the information transmitted and stored by those
pages?
(20:57:45) Anti_Eden: Danu: the best thing you can do right now is this
- pull the unsecure forms down right away. Then meet with your server
guy. Find out exactly what your billing process is, write up a
statement, and then either post it, or come back in here and let us
know exactly how things are going to be handled.
(20:57:54) tramsan: It is, quite literally, sent as plain text over
several routers, any of which could have intercepted it by chance. A
very slim chance, granted, but still there.
(20:58:14) Steelclaw: or your cable network
(20:58:20) Plink: You need to post the breach in security. Your customers have the right to know that.
(20:58:20) tramsan: Yeah, that too..
(20:58:33) tramsan: Basically, anywhere on the path from your computer to Verio.
(20:58:35) Steelclaw: like.. when your neighbor is running a trojan
(20:58:36) tramsan: Er, *limelight
(20:58:37) LO: As long as those pages are up, you are placing your customer's information at risk
(20:58:49) Anti_Eden: at a very high risk.. willingly.
(20:58:50) Plink: You can't just say, we don't know what happened and expect to be believed.
(20:59:19) tramsan: Personally, if I had used that page I would cancel that card and request a new.
(20:59:27) LO: They do know, Plink. That's the issue
(20:59:38) Plink: Well mentioning in IRC isn't enough.
(20:59:49) Steelclaw: side note: storing the billing/financial info plaintext on the server side isnt good either
(21:00:01) tramsan: not the very least
(21:00:25) Steelclaw: especially if its dumped into a file that the web server can serve if someone knows the right path
(21:00:30) DANU_EI: The page is down and will be edited then brought back up and changes announced
(21:00:38) Steelclaw: thank you
(21:00:46) DANU_EI: Please consider paypal
(21:01:07) DANU_EI: we have accepted many forms of payment for Savage eden and kept mcustomers happy
(21:01:18) AA0: Savage Eden isn't horizons..
(21:01:20) Kumu_Honua: Irrelevant.
(21:01:23) AA0: don't treat it like it is
(21:01:25) AA0: never..
(21:01:31) Steelclaw: the page is still up
(21:01:35) Plink: It is.
(21:01:43) Plink: Lying is a good idea at this point.
(21:01:46) Anti_Eden: for those that might be interested...... http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/ChronDataBreaches.htm
(21:01:47) Plink: er isn't.
(21:01:57) DANU_EI: he is pulling it down now
(21:02:16) DANU_EI: plink lying is not a good choiice of words
(21:02:45) Plink: I'll be calling my bank tomorrow to reverse some charges.
(21:02:50) DANU_EI: I believe you can listen and make your own calls
(21:03:10) DANU_EI: So people play asherons call , savage eden and Horizons
(21:03:10) Peaches: <DANU_EI> he is pulling it down now are his current words
(21:03:24) Steelclaw: i sent email to info@eiinteractive.com detailing some of the problems with the implmentation
(21:03:29) DANU_EI: some people are slow typists like me
(21:03:37) DANU_EI: most people are reasonable
(21:03:48) Kumu_Honua: <DANU_EI> The page is down and will be edited then brought back up and changes announced
(21:03:55) Kumu_Honua: Sounds like he said it was down to me.
(21:04:10) DANU_EI: we try real hard to take care of people
(21:04:27) Steelclaw: please fix them. please buy a signed ssl cert,
upgrade and secure your server software and billing database
implmentation
(21:05:11) LO: Glad to hear that, Danu. There are a number of people
with support issues posting in the forum help section that have not
been responded to yet.
(21:06:26) Steelclaw: secure the data on the server side. encrypt it,
guard the encryption keys. if you want some advice, reply to my emails
(21:07:32) LO: As long as you are here, I'd like a direct answer about
what my five annual subscriptions are going to be buying for the rest
of the year. Does EI intend to develop and implement new content and
game systems, or will we be having live GM-run events only and no
further actual development?
(21:08:21) LO: If you are going to be doing actual development, how
long will it take you to have a team in place to begin learing the game
system and code?
(21:08:23) DANU_EI: Is the site downnow/
(21:08:38) Kumu_Honua: Yes.
(21:09:03) Steelclaw: yeah
(21:09:04) DANU_EI: Ok I apologize for speaking 60 seconds too qucikly
(21:09:18) Steelclaw: heh it forwards to a 403/forbidden page
(21:09:25) LO: No account information is available, however
(21:09:31) DANU_EI: Will be abck up shortly
(21:09:36) AA0: heh, it loads and forwards
(21:09:49) Steelclaw: so uhm.. can the meta refresh tags be removed from the https://horizons.istaria.com pages?
(21:09:58) Steelclaw: disable your meta refresh
(21:10:07) Steelclaw: er. disable allow meta refresh
(21:11:55) DANU_EI: We have a team being built and plan to add new content and in game live events
(21:12:38) Abus_Altar: That is great Danu I hope I can
(21:12:42) AA0: Which type of new content?
(21:12:46) Abus_Altar: play
(21:12:53) LO: And adding game features that require client, server, or simulation programming?
(21:12:57) DANU_EI: The team still needs an artist and an additional programmer
(21:13:15) DANU_EI: server and client team is in place
(21:13:45) LO: Will you or will you not be recruiting players and entrusting them with WM poers to run these events?
(21:13:54) AA0: Client team is a new employee? or old EI one?
(21:14:27) DANU_EI: Simulation programming is going to be a combination of old tulga and new EI for a period of time
(21:14:36) Plink: Contracted with Jason E on that.
(21:14:40) Lycaunoss: that's great news Danu
(21:15:02) Frid`s-laptop: Please tell me you got Eubank to stay @_@
(21:15:25) AA0: Jason would give the client hope..
(21:15:28) Abus_Altar: I for one will be happy to give you time to get
your team up and running ..as long as I can figure out a way to pay
(21:15:50) DANU_EI: Abus can you mail me a money order?
(21:15:59) Plink: That annoucement needs to go public. I can't begin to stess that. Covering it up, will only lead to trouble.
(21:16:12) LO: I do hope your team is as good as you think they are. My
primary concerns are the game being abandoned to stagnate or being run
as a part time project.
(21:16:39) Plink: Can we trust you people to take a money order now?
(21:16:41) Solitaire: Plink, I think the forums will take care of it being very very public within an hour or two. ;P
(21:16:47) Abus_Altar: I was on monthly billing I just don't see doing that every month
(21:16:53) Peaches: *nods* to Solitaire
(21:17:10) DANU_EI: Plink which announcement?
(21:17:29) Plink: That you were storing Credit Card information in an unecrypted text file.
(21:17:53) Plink: I don't think you understand the full extent of what you did.
(21:19:23) GM_DarkEnigmaa: The text file was removed
(21:19:58) tramsan: Still has to be announced what happened.
(21:20:20) LO: Is it EI's intention to advise the player base of issues
like this only in game? The only official statement I'm aware of other
then this conversation was a comment made by Dyn in the Chaos MP.
(21:20:54) Plink: Either EI makes the anoucement, or someone else is going to announce it for them.
(21:21:05) DANU_EI: The details of how anyones information is being
sotred can be directed through Darka nd admin suport will answer
directly.omething that
(21:21:08) LO: Frankly, trying to communicate with the playerbase only in game is just asinine
(21:21:25) DANU_EI: We are not communicating throught hte game only
(21:21:33) Peaches: if you would all let him finish, then we can comprehend what is being said
(21:21:34) Plink: Game and here?
(21:22:07) DANU_EI: we use the news page and the forums as well as game manager
(21:22:09) LO: I just checked the forum and the community page. There has been no comment on this by EI personnel as of yet
(21:23:04) DANU_EI: We try to reach the players for their input in game as many do not go to the forums
(21:24:28) DANU_EI: Ok I am not signing off but would like a
(21:24:34) LO: Danu, that is understandable. Even commendable. However,
EI seems to be ignoring the forums and any method of communication
other then in-game
(21:24:51) Steelclaw: "Due to an error on our part, your billing and
personal data may have been exposed to an unauthorized third party..."
(21:28:10) DANU_EI: Guys I am patient and understand stress, i have apologized for any inconvenience
(21:28:36) Abus_Altar: we know thxs
(21:36:53) DANU_EI: Anyone have any other questions
(21:37:49) LO: Not a question, but I'm looking forward to seeing a
clear and convincing demonstration of EI's willingness and ability to
implement new content and game systems
(21:37:50) LexDivinia: Do we have an update posted anywhere as to the current status? I was not here for prior questions
(21:38:03) LexDivinia: in reference to billing that is
(21:38:30) DANU_EI: Lex pm dark
(21:38:31) GM_DarkEnigmaa: Zack@eiinteractive.com
(21:38:42) DANU_EI: he will answer questions directly
(21:39:03) DANU_EI: we are accepting paypal fro secure credit card payment
(21:39:12) ***Steelclaw writes that one down (heh. no brainer)
(21:39:13) Peaches: thank you Danu
(21:39:26) DANU_EI: If you dont trust paypal we will take a check or a money order
(21:39:33) LexDivinia: I just want to know if I am going to be charged as soon as I update my info?
(21:39:52) DANU_EI: We are going to charge on anniversary sates
(21:39:58) DANU_EI: dates
(21:40:05) Peaches: anniversary dates?
(21:40:10) GM_DarkEnigmaa: for a paypal payment Plink?
(21:40:12) DANU_EI: renewal
(21:40:23) Peaches: okies
(21:40:40) Plink: To send you a check or money order and have it applied to account and not someone elses.
(21:41:01) Vesh: Vesh = Mad @ Horizons
(21:41:04) DANU_EI: Plink maybe you should find a nother game
(21:41:10) Rolynd: You can send 'em one to apply to my account
(21:41:12) LexDivinia: butif I enter info to PayPal, does it not automatically make a payment?
(21:41:28) Plink: I think that was the wrong thing to say DANU_EI...
(21:41:52) GM_DarkEnigmaa: Check and money orders are not stored on a text file Plink
(21:42:00) Plink: Should I quote you on that when I talk to my bank tomorrow?
(21:42:20) LO: Man, if you can't handle Plink, Seranthor is going to clean your clock...
(21:42:33) Khoal: the words can't be taken back. might as well use them, Plink
(21:43:25) Plink: But I'd say in addition to answers to my questions. I'd like to see an apology.
(21:45:12) DANU_EI: Plink I truly hope you will play Horizons and will some day be willing to send a money order to EI
(21:45:43) DANU_EI: I am going to chaos unless someone has another question
(21:45:53) LO: Anyway... Danu, Dark, as of yet there is still no
mention of this in the forums. If you are wanting to get as much
communication with the playerbase as you say, why are you not using the
forums as well as IRC as well as in-game dialog? It seems contrary to
your premise.
(21:46:10) DANU_EI: I repeat I need bronze bars in order
(21:46:38) DANU_EI: LO we are trying to get to all avenues
(21:46:58) LexDivinia: the first place many of us look before logging in each day is the forums.
(21:47:05) LO: I look forward to seeing an expanded forum presence then.
(21:47:10) GM_DarkEnigmaa: I'll pop in on order for a bit =D
(21:47:11) ***Steelclaw wouldnt mind paying his sub with in game resources
(21:47:28) Tathar: the first thing I look at is the stand-alone auncher
(21:47:50) Vesh: Ok, I have a question
(21:48:13) Vesh: I've heard there's a problem with the Creative X-Fi sound cards. Is that going to be looked at?
(21:48:28) GM_DarkEnigmaa: Vesh is that in the PM, i'm almost to you
(21:49:27) AA0: there are still sound bugs in game though, so something isn't right with the sound engine
(21:49:28) Vesh: I've just heard from different people that there's problems with X-Fi and Horizons.
(21:50:05) Khoal: old drivers do not interfere with HZ. new drivers totally bork it
(21:50:21) Vesh: Looks like I should find even older drivers then?
(21:50:44) Tathar: guess it's my old drivers then
(21:50:47) Frid`s-laptop: try the original CD?
(21:50:58) Vesh: Yup
(21:51:03) LO: My only issue with EI is that I do not wish to see the
game left to stagnate. What I have seen is EI's statements so far
concerns me greatly, as I don't see that you have the ability to add
new content and game systems. I would very much like to see that
impression disproved, gentlemen.
(21:51:46) Michael_Dyn: LO: I joined EI after being with Tulga Games. I
would not have joined the team if they did not intend to add new
content to the game.
(21:52:42) LO: I understand and appreciate that
(21:53:39) LO: I put a lot of effort and time into writing quests. I
believe in this game. I do not want to see it die of neglect
(21:54:45) AA0: My quest is on indefinite hold..
(21:55:27) AA0: stopped at page 5 or so
(21:56:03) LO: As are a few of mine until a QC department comes in,
some artists are hired, and my access to the quest editor is restored
(21:56:34) AA0: you can't access it?
(21:57:02) LO: My login was disabled
(21:57:04) Solitaire: I don't know if mine would have ever made it into
the quest editor, but I found little desire to work on it lately.
(21:57:09) AA0: huh, mines fine
(21:57:48) Steelclaw: theres a few quests id like to do, and an emblem to introduce
(21:58:06) LO: My original istaria.com login still works, but I can't work on anything I authored on my main
(21:58:48) AA0: I've done psuedo code stuff, no input, heh.. simple anyways
Comments
That would explain why all the forums on the Horizons Communtiy website were locked.
Awesome.
Where's the jaw drop emoticon when you need it?
There you go.
Please note the following warning ...
http://www.gucomics.com/#important_notice
Woody Hearn posted this after he received information that caused him grave concerns... Please visit gucomics.com for more information.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Vagabond Spirit in search of a home...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Which FF Character Are You?
too bad, i just started the trial and the crafting as a dragon seem quite fun and different...
(21:41:04) DANU_EI: Plink maybe you should find a nother game
I have to admit, that made me giggle!
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
'Dear Horizons Subscribers:
Effective
immediately, we will be implementing the first phase of a new
integrated billing platform. All customer accounts setup prior to
August 1st, through the Pay- By-Touch system are now
re-enabled. Your customer information will be maintained on the same
secure server as it was before. As a result of this change, you now need to do nothing to have your account status maintained exactly as it was previously established.
If since August 1st,
you entered a new Pay Pal subscription, it is immediately being
cancelled by us and refunded. If you sent credit card information
directly to E I interactive, it has not been processed, nor will it
be. Further, any personal information collected by these forms will be
purged from our systems to protect your privacy.
The
second phase of our billing platform will be introduced in the near
future, this enhancement will also allow for Pay Pal payments, for
those customers who would like to use their Pay Pal account. Our
customer service department will be responding to any alternative
payment requests received, as always we will work to support your
needs.
As many of you know, there were
numerous issues with previous Horizons billing including a lack of
flexibility, subscribers being prematurely or double billed and a lack
of confirming emails. This was a substantial enough issue for E I
Interactive to take action on as an early priority. We assure you that
your service will not be interrupted and we apologize for any concern
this multi-step process may have caused.
Your thoughtful understanding and patience is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Account Support Group
EI Interactive
Apparently the text file from the non HTTPS system has been downloaded a few time by non EI staff.
The billing issues are warranted and have nothing to do with Paypal. But rather the system EI uses to record your personal information. Which in itself isn't much but are nescessary bits of information to carry out identity thefts.
IT 101... who here can tell me exactly how simple it is to set up an HTTPS page along with getting the security certificate ? yes its that simple. This is something that should have been in place before hand. Would have saved EI from putting the boards on full moderation thats for sure.
It's extremely simple: you find a host that does secure servers, buy a certificate off someone reputable, like Verisign, and let your host know.
Sticking a plain text file on a HTTPS enabled server won't stop shit, except your browser makes a secure connection to get it.
It needs to be in a database and way outside of public reach, and that's easy to do.
[15:52] <@DANU_EI>; E I team
have been working hard to get billing and customer service into
shape....I hope the outcome will be good for all players when concluded
sorry ithas taken so long
…
[15:53] <Imayo> Danu: will we once again be able to add additional subscriptions to the same account?
[15:53] <@DANU_EI>; aye you will be abel toadd as before
…
[15:57] <Khoal> DANU, will EI keep TG's policy of not deleting character data if the sub runs out?
[15:58] <@DANU_EI>; Aye our policy has always been and will continue to be to never wipe chars
….
[16:16] * Peaches sets mode: +m
[16:16] <@Peaches>; ok any questions please send me pm and I will post them
[16:17] <@DANU_EI>; Frid try not to be rude....the point is
historically there was only one person able to do maintenance and
repair servers, now there are tow
[16:17] <@Peaches>; danu they cannot respond in here to you now,
so I have asked them to field questions to me, they can see us type
[16:17] <@DANU_EI>; Unix is a new opportunity for Jeff to grow ,
this make s happy employees , he also can go ski with greater freedoma
nd less risk to servers'
[16:18] * Hal`cyon is now known as Hal|Muted
[16:18] * Khoal is now known as Khoal|silenced
[16:18] <@DANU_EI>; Khoal a new confectioner fix was agreeed upon
by David and I last week when I was in Phoenix it is a priority
[16:19] * Hal|Muted is now known as Hal|CantDoConfWOSimChanges
[16:19] * Hal|CantDoConfWOSimChanges is now known as Hal|CantDoSimChangesWOAdrian
[16:19] <@DANU_EI>; Guys I want to communicate ....but silenced means you arent trying
[16:19] <@Peaches>; danu they cant talk, I moderated the rooom
[16:19] <@DANU_EI>; I am sure I missed a few inquiries
[16:19] * Lex is now known as LexWeDIdNotChooseToBESIlenced
[16:20] * Khoal|silenced is now known as Khoal|gagged
[16:20] <@DANU_EI>; ok so I wish to listen
[16:20] * Hal|CantDoSimChangesWOAdrian is now known as Hal`cyon
[16:20] <@Peaches>; they have to field their questions to me and I can post for you to answer
[16:20] <@DANU_EI>; but i type slowly like an old guy
[16:20] <@DANU_EI>; ok
[16:20] <@Peaches>; here is your first question
[16:20] <@DANU_EI>; fire questions
[16:20] <@Peaches>; *Lex* Does the statement that you have more
than one game mean that Horizons has no special priority in your agenda?
[16:22] * Khoal|gagged is now known as Khoal|hearscrickets
[16:22] <@DANU_EI>; lex if you have read my posts yo would know
that I love the Horizons game and its potential personally, from a
business standpoint it is job one......the unix platform is th ereason
Hal needed to understandthat we have a need for unix and windows
[16:22] <@DANU_EI>; methinks we go to ventrillo I speak much faster than type
[16:22] <@Peaches>; please indicate done too danu, so I can post the next question
[16:22] <@DANU_EI>; doen
[16:23] <@Peaches>; *Hal`cyon* How will the game be developed when
the most experienced developer only worked for Tulga remotely for about
a month?
[16:23] <@DANU_EI>; Hal as my kids can be assumptive so are you
[16:23] * LexWeDIdNotChooseToBESIlenced is now known as Lex
[16:24] * Hal`cyon is now known as Hal|SpeaksWithTheOldTeamDaily
[16:24] <@Peaches>; any more questions?
[16:24] <@DANU_EI>; The game development process will be moved
forward with a lot of discipline by a team that will be interested in
long term employment and contractors who will support them if they need
to grow
[16:26] <@Peaches>; Lex* Danu, will we see a more definitve
locationo for inofrmation from the developers and owners, such as the
login page or launcher?
[16:26] <@DANU_EI>; One of the changes a number of players and dev
staff have suggested is a reworking of forums and concentration of
threads in an easier to ue fashion
[16:27] <@DANU_EI>; forum membership will be for subscribers only going forward so the input is by people who
have a stake in the game and truly care
[16:27] * Plink is now known as to|aradoth_dot_net_colon_6760
[16:27] * Hal|SpeaksWithTheOldTeamDaily is now known as Hal|WhatAboutPotentialPlayersA
[16:27] * Hal|WhatAboutPotentialPlayersA is now known as Hal|AskingQuestions
[16:27] <@Peaches>; hal send in questions to me please
[16:28] <@Peaches>; ready for next question danu?
[16:28] * to|aradoth_dot_net_colon_6760_ is now known as channel_aradoth
[16:28] * channel_aradoth is now known as Plink
[16:29] * Tanaros has joined #Horizons
[16:29] <@Peaches>; ok posting next question
[16:29] <@Peaches>; *Soresha* hi Peaches, can you ask Danu what
progress has been made towards an agreement with GN? folks on Unity
want to know what's happening
[16:29] <@DANU_EI>; aye'
[16:30] * Aria has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[16:30] * dYn|wertzui has joined #Horizons
[16:30] <@DANU_EI>; Sor amongst the joy of billing, I have had a dialogue with GN
[16:30] <@DANU_EI>; I have comeforward with a fresh proposal and hope to build a relationship a new
[16:31] <@DANU_EI>; Being a creative sort, which you would only
understand if you knew the whole story of Horizons acquisition
[16:31] <@DANU_EI>; I have tried a number of avenues to work with Digital Brothers
[16:31] <@DANU_EI>; Unfortunately,
[16:32] <@DANU_EI>; there is a lot of history that they need to cope with,
[16:32] * dYn|wertzui has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[16:33] * Plink is now known as Brothers_Chap
[16:33] <@Peaches>; ok another question
[16:33] * Variol has joined #Horizons
[16:33] <@Peaches>; *Cerjar* now that the Evolution Engine is
still in the hands of Tulga, how will new features that need
improvement in this engine be developed? will Tulga do these stuff?
[16:34] <@DANU_EI>; The future status of the engine ownership is
not clear, however we are excited to work with Ricka nd his group for
special engine modifications as necessary
[16:35] <@DANU_EI>; clearly
[16:35] <@DANU_EI>; if the engine is not being maintained for any reason we have rights to hire others to work source code
[16:35] <@DANU_EI>; done
[16:35] <@Peaches>; *Frid`s-laptop* Does that mean all existing
forum accounts will be dissabled then membership will be automatic
based on account logins?
[16:37] * Brothers_Chap is now known as Plink
[16:37] <@DANU_EI>; Frid the details of how that will be done have
not been set....if you have ideas tell dark or peaches and they will
get them to right team member
[16:37] <@Peaches>; *Warsong* With the Forums being People who
truly care about the game only wouldnt that be like Burning Books you
only get one side of the story?
[16:38] <@DANU_EI>; warsong I loved asherons call and logged into the forum rarely
[16:38] * Plink is now known as Plink|Appauds
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; I think
the forums today are populated by a lot of people with mixed agendas
and upset, some real concern and some imagined, I wish to have all
sides of the story
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; however
[16:39] * Hal|AskingQuestions is now known as Hal|Concerned
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; if someone does not play the game
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; like many consultants on the boards
[16:40] <@DANU_EI>; their voice is not as important as those who play
[16:40] <@DANU_EI>; done
[16:40] <@Peaches>; *Lex* How long was the Horizons acquition in a planning stage?
[16:40] * dYn|wertzui has joined #Horizons
[16:40] <@DANU_EI>; does hal have questions
[16:40] <@Peaches>; chekcing the list now
[16:40] <@DANU_EI>; I was first approached at E3
[16:40] <@Peaches>; yes I have one
[16:41] <@DANU_EI>; the sale and circumstances of the situation were a bit odd
[16:41] * maiyr is now known as potential_sub|unimportant_voic
[16:41] <@DANU_EI>; but I saw
such great potential that I took a very aggressivve stance to do things
that were undoable in many eyes
[16:41] <@Peaches>; please stop changing nicks
[16:42] <@DANU_EI>; doen
[16:42] <@Peaches>;
*Hal|AskingQuestions* Did you notify the people who's credit card
numbers were compromised by the old billing form that posted them to a
publically accessable text file?
[16:42] <@DANU_EI>; potential subs can read not post in may game forums
[16:42] * Fidri has quit IRC (Quit: )
[16:43] * dYn|wertzui has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[16:43] <@DANU_EI>; Hal we are
communicating in multiple channels with all subscribers who have been
in billing maintenance in one way or another
[16:44] * Hal|Concerned is now known as Hal|SoNoThen-Sigh
[16:44] <@Peaches>; hal please stop changing nick
[16:45] <@DANU_EI>; Hal You have made a few assumptions and not listened maybe you should try a direct dialogue
[16:45] * Khoal|hearscrickets is now known as Khoal|lastnickIswear
[16:45] * Hal|SoNoThen-Sigh is now known as Hal|CantTalkModeM
[16:45] <@Peaches>; *Imayo* If they cannot post in the forums, then how are they supposed to get their questions answered?
[16:45] <@DANU_EI>; answer is yes
[16:46] <@DANU_EI>; hal the timing of each email tro each person is not here on my desk
[16:46] <@DANU_EI>; mabe you do not understand roles in organizations, hopefully you will learn manners
[16:46] <@DANU_EI>; doen
[16:47] <@Peaches>;
*Solanaceae* Danu, will Unity subscribers still be able to post on the
forums, given that the Unity subscriber database is property of GN?
[16:47] <@DANU_EI>; I have asked Luca how he would like to handle that and need to respect his wishes
[16:47] <@DANU_EI>; done
[16:47] <@Peaches>; *Warsong*
Based on your response to my first question would you be eliminating
the possible returning player or new Sub by keeping them out of the
forums?
[16:48] <@DANU_EI>; I hope we will allow new subs or returning players an avenue for communication
[16:48] <@Peaches>; any more questions?
[16:48] <@DANU_EI>; but read only status is not rare
[16:48] <@DANU_EI>; possibly sections
[16:49] <@Peaches>;
<Steelclaw> Have you considered the potential subs who wish to
ask questions about the game or have trouble running the game? They
come to the forum to get their answers and tech support -- and you
can't open a ticket without an account.
[16:51] <@DANU_EI>; tickets
and email inquiries will need to be received ..once again structure
needs to be designed with sectios
[16:51] <@DANU_EI>; done
[16:49] <@Peaches>;
<Steelclaw> Have you considered the potential subs who wish to
ask questions about the game or have trouble running the game? They
come to the forum to get their answers and tech support -- and you
can't open a ticket without an account.
[16:51] <@DANU_EI>; tickets
and email inquiries will need to be received ..once again structure
needs to be designed with sectios
[16:51] <@DANU_EI>; done
[16:51] <@Peaches>; *Variol*
If the games numer of sub's were to increase a great deal would that
allow for a larger dev team...sorry if this has already been asked.
[16:52] * Asteral has left #Horizons
[16:52] * Seraies has quit IRC (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)
[16:52] <@DANU_EI>; hal i have not seen a direct tell rom u
[16:53] * Asteral has joined #Horizons
[16:53] <@Peaches>; I am processing all the questons in my list, some arent showing up for some reason
[16:53] <@DANU_EI>; dev team and content growth rate will expnd with subs
[16:55] <@Peaches>;
*Khoal|lastnickIswear* If only active subscribers can post on the
forums, what will you do with this IRC channel?
[16:55] <@DANU_EI>; I have acall coing in
[16:55] <@Peaches>; okies
[16:57] <@DANU_EI>; LOL it depends on how smished danu dragon is when he visits...
[16:57] <@DANU_EI>; I think integrating more dialogie by players is only point
[16:58] <@Peaches>; Thank you Danu, for taking the time to come in and address questions and concerns
[16:58] <@DANU_EI>; ty all'
Alot of that guys responses were quite offensive.
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Horizons missed its boat for making a premier like comeback.
When EI bought it they knew that. They are just hoping it keeps a small playerbase and makes them a small profit. Considering they apparently bought the game for less than $100K it won't be hard to do. Which probably means no more development for Horizons since dev's cost a pretty penny to a small mmo like Horizons.
An MMORPG without any development... I don't know. Are you SURE I didn't make this up? I've been having some very odd dreams, lately.
I played Hz for about nine or ten months and finally cancelled. It was frustrating. I left behind a wonderful guild, quite of few had become rather good friends. It very much frustrated me that they made promise after promise, none of which they were able to fufull. I finally realised that they must have known they couldn't but they needed to string along as many as possible to keep the ship afloat. At least, that's how it appeared to me. Quite a long time after, I used a free trial just for a laugh. Besides the game being nearly empty
I hope it's not the case that development would just cease. Leaving the game as it is, with no content being developed, is probably worse than having the old team who never had time to fix the original bugs and all their other issues but, at least, put up some new stuff now and then. It would just be dead if they didn't develop anythying. If that's really what they're planning, I hope they fail to realise any profit from the game. If they are sincerely going to try and fix what's there and give paying customers new content, then I would wish them all the luck in the world. As I've said before, however, the new team does nothing to reassure me. The fact that they make all their big announcements (none of which seem very big except the one where they compromised a bunch of subscribers personal info) in IRC instead of using the official boards, really adds to that. Isn't that the same thing that the troubleridden game DnL does, too? It seems so unprofessional.
Of course they could put a lot of minds at ease by hiring some of the former Tulga Devs to work on the game. I feel bad for that crew because they worked so hard and believed all of Bowman's BS and lies. In the end the little guys and gals at Tulga got screwed. Some of them were working for free as well hoping to get paid WHEN the game made money.
Oh and yes they had several players turned intern converts that were working for free with the understanding they would get paid when the game started making money again.
Another Sad Chapter in the horizons saga. One has to wonder when this game is just going to die.
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; if someone does not play the game
[16:39] <@DANU_EI>; like many consultants on the boards
[16:40] <@DANU_EI>; their voice is not as important as those who play
this is not a smart thing to say from this guy. how will EI get more customers playing with this guys attitude?
everyone's voice is important even the ones who dont play the game. if you want more players playing your game then you will need to listen to them. this is like business 101 for some people. if you want more business you will need to make it attactive to non customers so they will become customers. more customers is more money, more money means more profit, its that simple.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online