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what DDO should have been
Jd1680a
Member Posts: 398
I remember getting onto Everquest 2 the first two weeks it was out. Within a month SOE was already adding in content. EQ2 was so much to do, you had crafting, solo and group hunting, solo and group quests and exploring. It seems like you cant do all the quests because SOE adds a ton more in.
This where I think DDO just falls short. There is not enough content in this game to keep people going for months. Nope its just enough to keep people around for a month then they leave of boredom. I think it was a bad idea to bring DDO in as a MMO to begin with. Lesson learn, you cant have an MMO without soloability or crafting, above all have a mountain of content that will make the casual player last four or five months.
What I think DDO should have been is a hybrid of a single RPG/MMO, as in you buy the box and play it solo for free on your computer. If you want more content or want to hunt with buddies online on the group stuff then it should cost money. Phantasy star universe is another mmo coming out doing the same thing, making solo content offline and group stuff online.
Seriously, I thought the quests DDO had to offer was really fun. After doing it 5 times the quest gets boring. It doesnt help having them ding players exp from these quests because there isnt enough content.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Comments
Given that your posts for so long were little more than fanboy cheerleading, I congratulate you for the scales having been lifted from your eyes. You now see what the majority of us have seen for months.
The instances themselves are fun the first time through, provided you don't get involved in a group that's only interested in zerging the dungeon. The "new" wears off pretty quickly after that first time through.
When you have only one thing to do in a game, that one thing become a grind. In this case, that thing is dungeon instances.
The game was released incomplete, and seems to now be on life support until LOTR:O is released. My guess is that DDO will go the way of AC2 within 6 months of LOTR:O's release.
DDO isn't a bad game. I agree that it should not have been made into a mmo. Neverwinter Nights and the sequal, coming out soon, are perfect for D&D. They offer the opportunity for players to play in small groups, as D&D was meant, but also on persistant-world servers (player created), with a number of other players.
There is a player DM, who can control the content and pace of the game. It is completely open and imaginative, just as I think D&D should be.
Dungeons and Dragons Online delivers for me as far as the combat, dungeon crawling, and advancement systems. but it completely lacks a community feel and other RP aspects. To me, it is a fun adventure type of mmo that should have had the same payment scheme as Guild Wars.
At first I was against PvP in DDO, but now I think it would be good to add it, as long as it would not go against well known D&D themes. Same idea goes for Turbines other upcoming big-name mmorpg. Hobbits and Elves need not battle against eachother, ruining the feel of Middle Earth, but it would be nice to see PvP with Elves and Men against the evil Orcs and Northmen.
I never thought I would say this but this feature (PvP)in mmo's that improve them, making them more diverse and fun for many players. Crafting is another important feature that I originally dimissed in DDO, but now look at as something that would be a big improvement in the game.
I first thought that DDO would be great and succeed do to it's core game concepts: Small grouping through dungeons, gaining wealth and fame, defeating evil, blah, blah. But the lack of it in DDO is what seems to be bringing the game's fun-factor down.
Perhaps something like Saga of Ryzom's Ryzom Ring expasion might be useful for DDO, allowing players to create their own content for other players to experience?
I am not a fanboy of anything.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I expected DDO to be the gameplay of Oblivion however having the ability to do it as an adventuring party.
Instead Turbine decided the Dungeon aspect of the game was all that really mattered so we have a Dungeon simulator instead.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I am not a fanboy of anything.
I said that your posts (as they relate to DDO) were fanboy cheerleading. In the past you have been pretty vocal in your support of the poorly designed thing Turbine tried to pass off as a game, and didn't have much tolerance for folks who disagreed with you. Now you agree with those who are disappointed with the way the game has turned out. You changed your mind ... nothing wrong with that.
It's not an attack, and you needn't be upset by it. It was a statement of fact based on what you have posted here before regarding the game. Given how easy it is to go back through these forums and see someone's posting history, anyone can see for themselves.
There are a lot of former supporters of this game who are leaving now. Lovesmasher, Jabbamagnus, and Talon54 are three names that leap to mind. Now Jd1680a can just be added to the list.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
I said that your posts (as they relate to DDO) were fanboy cheerleading. In the past you have been pretty vocal in your support of the poorly designed thing Turbine tried to pass off as a game, and didn't have much tolerance for folks who disagreed with you. Now you agree with those who are disappointed with the way the game has turned out. You changed your mind ... nothing wrong with that.
It's not an attack, and you needn't be upset by it. It was a statement of fact based on what you have posted here before regarding the game. Given how easy it is to go back through these forums and see someone's posting history, anyone can see for themselves.
There are a lot of former supporters of this game who are leaving now. Lovesmasher, Jabbamagnus, and Talon54 are three names that leap to mind. Now Jd1680a can just be added to the list.
At the beginning I thought DDO was really good. In comes to combat, I think it is the best mmo to have it. the quests were really fun. Id enjoyed the quests alot because it made you feel like i am in a story. I still stand for the good side of this game. The worst part of it is the lack of content and the boredom it comes after Ive done the same high level quests four times.
I gave this game a chance just like I did with others. I thought with turbines big budget and experience with other mmos under their belts they would add in more content later. Just like SOE did with EQ2 at the beginning then started adding a ton of it two months later.
Personally I dont think Turbine isnt the only one to blame for the lack of content and the poor outcome to DDO. I think Atari have much to do with it as well. Atari's games lately have become to be really poor. With them losing a game called Timeshift, a single player FPS, then vivendi picks it up making it a bad ass game. Thats something to show to you that Atari does not seem to know how to stand behind making good games any longer. Maybe its time for Hasbro to part ways from Atari and find someone else to do the job well. Maybe Ubisoft would be interested.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I tried not to have to many expectations from DDO before playing it, I have to admit it was probably easy for me since I've never had a huge amount of experience with D&D before.
I played with a few table top groups in junior high and high school, all boys of course but their all very nice and I really had fun with the tabletop stuff. I loved the character creation tools, the imagination it took to really get into your story, with a good DM it was easily a weekend of purely silly fun.
So I guess I was kinda hoping for a similar experience with DDO and was completely dissapointed of course. I don't know... I guess I just remember the personalization of the table top game being so important, and the fact that DDO is so, erg.... Impersonal, like completely, just takes away from the whole point to me.
Most of my dissapontment came from that and the fact that it really doesn't feel like a well thought out, long term plan for a game from Turbin, everything seems rushed, half assed, second rate, kinda thing??? If that makes sense.
Anyways, could have been 100 times better if you ask me, lost a lot of respect for Turbin on this one, doesn't bode well for LoTRO IHMO.
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It's not as good as Morrowind but still a brilliant production.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
-W.
I ceased my involvement with LOTR:O after Turbine summarily ignored the testers of DDO. I haven't been on any forums regarding it, and have read none of the propaganda surrounding it. Once LOTR:O is released and a trial is offered, I may try it.
I'll never willingly help Turbine release a game again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice .....
Don't kid yourself. Beta is just a marketing scheme lately
I've never been a roleplayer. Even with PnP D&D, I was more interested in reading the modules and theorizing the possibilities than actually playing. So I wouldn't have been in the target audience for DDO under the best of circumstances. Still, I'm shocked at how badly the fumbled it and have to wonder in general, is the MMORPG ultimately not for RP?
I recently read this entertaining article about someone's attempt to bring his D&D past to the computer age. And then I look at the successes, failures, and possible futures of the MMO market and I wonder if it's not impossible entirely.
Firstly, I completely agree that the game's weakness (content) should have been it's strong point. By releasing a tool to let players create and upload dungeons, they would easily have gone from "less than a months worth" to "unlimited supply." Sure, there'd have to be some vetting before a user-created quest went official, but that's got to be easier that creating from scratch.
But what of the other factors?
Crafting. Well I actually don't like crafting in most cases. If I wanted an economic sim, I'd go play one. If I buy a game to fight monsters, I want to fight. Mixing one with the other puts both at risk, IMHO. Personal feelings aside however, we can break MMOs, or even games in general, into "sandbox" and "directed." For a sandbox game, crafting definitely fits in. It doesn't necessarily lead to the goal, but it makes something to do and adds to immersion. Roleplaying is definitely on the sandbox side, so I have to agree that it should have had some crafting capabilities.
PvP. Again not a favorite of mine. (Maybe I just don't like games?) Sadly, we kind of have to separate PvP the dream from PvP the reality. In the dream, it's just part of a realistic world; you can be be killed by NPCs, you can die in a trap, you can get killed by other players, and if you're foolish enough you can even kill yourself. It's a possibility but not a common one, as killing another player would come with the repercussions thereof.
In PvP the reality, respawn camping and trash talk make for a gankfest and not a virtual world. With strict control over the people you interact with, and a casual but shared attitude toward a player's death, it coudl work. But that's too much to ask for in an MMO. So I don't blame them for excluding PvP.
Instances. Had they gone with user-submitted content, separate instances would be a requirement and the city-style gateway an even more transparent file-serving system. As-is, however perhaps it was a mistake. For one thing, this setup invited the comparison to Guild Wars - making DDO look especially bad via the pricing system. For another, it's not very sandbox. You can't leave the small confines, you can't just go hunt, and there really isn't any immersion when you're just waiting for an NPC to tell you which door to disappear into.
They did do a few things right however. The detect & disarm role was probably played better here than any other MMO out there. Giving xp purely for missions and not for kills was a clever idea to focus away from the mechanics of gameplay and toward the bigger picture. And I thought the nature of shrines and team roles made for more thought-provoking approaches than simply throwing oneself at the enemy until they're gone.
I guess under the best of circumstances it wouldn't have been a mainstream game to appeal to everyone. It seems though that Turbine was far enough off their mark they couldn't even hit the target audience.
Currently playing:
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Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
I too fear for LoTRO. Should they screw that up, they will have defaced both the father (D&D) and the grandfather (Tolkein) of all modern day fantasy. There is surely a circle reserved in Dante's Hell for such miscreants.
I've never been a roleplayer. Even with PnP D&D, I was more interested in reading the modules and theorizing the possibilities than actually playing. So I wouldn't have been in the target audience for DDO under the best of circumstances. Still, I'm shocked at how badly the fumbled it and have to wonder in general, is the MMORPG ultimately not for RP?
Interesting question but no, I have to say that the MMORPG is utterly suited for RP if it's implemented properly. For example: Giving people a bunch of static NPC's that stand around offering the same quest any time you go to them kills RP. If I had been on the design team for DDO I'd have coded it more like real Dungeons & Dragons....
How so? Simply put: Instead of LFG to do Tangleroot you would just "LFG lvl 3-5" or whatever level range. Then, once the group is formed a RANDOM NPC would approach the party leader and ask the party to do a quest for them. Based upon which quest, as per party makeup, had the LEAST number of times been done by the group. IE: If WW had been done by everyone in the party but STK had only been done by 1 person in the party you would be offered STK. If both quests had been done an EQUAL number of times the NPC would issue a quest invite for either (random). Thus party makeup would generate a random dungeon that the party likely hadn't done before, or at least someone hadn't done before. This would eliminate the CONSTANT repetition of the same dungeons over and over again as well as introduce far more opportunity to roleplay.
I mean... c'mon now... 1 NPC for the same quest who talks to you as if he never met you before EVERY time you visit him? Lets get real folks, that busts immersion all to hell. On the flip side... forming a party and having the party leader get approached only after the group is full? Now THAT can lead to interesting roleplay... not only in the mission itself but also as to who gets to be party leader, how you form your group (because you don't KNOW what classes you'll need ahead of time) etc. At any rate it would at least break up the monotony of WW, STK, TR, Delera's, SC, CO6 ad nauseum... There are hundreds of quests in DDO... why is it that only about 10 ever get groups going to them? Hmm? This would eliminate that. Actually it's funny that you mention this because both Saga of Ryzom and Hero's Journey are planning to do just that. SoR is adding it in an expansion they're working on and Hero's Journey is being designed from the ground up to support it. Minor difference: SoR will be player created and Hero's Journey content of that type will be created by volunteer player GM's who have already been vetted by Simutronics (note: They have done it before very successfully so it's already a proven feature in their games). As proven in every game I've ever played and enjoyed adding crafting does nothing but make a game better for players. Adding crafting doesn't take away from anything unless the Devs over do it like in Horizons (where crafted items were the ONLY items) or in the SWG:NGE where crafted items can't come close to comparing to dropped items now. As long as you strike a balance crafting adds loads of fun, content and variety to any MMORPG (EVE, UO, SWG-PreNGE, EQ1, EQ2, DAOC, Ryzom, the list goes on). Suffice to say, adding crafting not only enhances roleplaying it also enhances fun. When done properly. Personally I don't feel PvP is strictly necessary in any MMORPG unless the premise of that MMORPG is some type of Warfare (a-la EQ2, EVE, DAOC, AO, etc., where you have opposing factions). But in games like DDO, which are primarily intended to be cooperative PvP becomes far less necessary, even optional. Including it suddenly becomes less necessary and more of an excercize (by the developer) of: "Is it really worth the headache it would be to code it so it can't be abused or become a grief fest?" In the case of DDO PvP is really un-necessary and I still, to this day, don't understand why Turbine has decided to add it. Hmm... instances can be both good and bad. DDO actually has struck a decent balance but it gets a lot of flak because of the fact that the gameplay feels very similar to Guild Wars in many areas. (Note above my method of getting rid of that phenomena). But 2 simple things could alleviate th is problem altogether:
1) Add a explorable, non-instanced, world. One where resources can be mined, trees chopped down, etc....
2) When "expanding" the game and adding new 'cities' or 'villiages' or 'islands' make them places you need to travel to either by a quest or via the overland map.
3) Place random encounters worth minimal, but decent, experience around the map so that those who just want to hop on and kill a few things can do that.
This would reduce the feeling of over-instancing. The addition of crafting would also reduce it but.... here is the big kicker that REALLY helps ALL games with roleplaying:
4) Within that NON INSTANCED explorable world (and make sure you make it a BIG world) place housing lots, along the same idea Horizons introduced, where people can place houses. The use of LOTS will prevent urban overcrowding (a-la UO) but still allow players to have homes in the 'main world' a-la SWG.
5) Along with the explorable world introduce mounts (everyone loves riding mounts, go figure.
Those 5 simple things would get rid of the feeling that DDO is giving less things to do than Guild Wars and eliminate the whole gripe about the monthly fee altogether.
The beauty of it is they can do it piecemiel, grow the world with each module. Start out relatively small and as you add modules also add more area to the world.
It could have been.... if done right. Problem is they took too many shortcuts.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Oh... forgot a BIGGIE: Along with all the stuff I mentioned about the explorable world and crafting it is IMPERATIVE that they give players the ability to customize their clothing.
And, finally: Add a TON more emotes to the game. Right now it's pathetic. And someone really needs to beat whoever did the dance emotes senseless.... those are horrid.
(See Shae
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
That's a clever idea. I wonder if you'd need a more traditional quest offering alongside it, for when people specifically wanted to do something. Else you'd have "LFG that HASN'T done Tangleroot". But I really like the idea of looking at the party's history before generating something.
I had an inkling on the SoR, though didn't know for sure. Hero's Journey I didn't know about at all. Very interesting, thanks for the info. As you say, there is the balance problem of crafted items exceeding dropped ones, or vice-versa, making one side pointless. While this shouldn't be that difficult, it's also not trivial or everyone would be getting it right. But there's also a critical mass of loot needed before it becomes workable.Consider the lowly Potion of Healing. It's pretty basic, commonly needed, and consumable. Most players would carry a bunch, just for safety, no matter what. It's such a staple that I want to be able to run over to an NPC, buy 10, and know that I can come back to him (or a more convenient guy) when those 10 are gone. And it would be nice to find a couple of said potion as drops along the way. The more hoops I have to jump through for that simple transaction, the more annoying it is.
How does crafting mesh with that? If you're finding ingredients to make potions, that's just an inconvenient way of finding the actual potions. If a player wants to sell them to me, he's competing with an NPC who's always available and has an unlimited supply. The only way he can complete is price, and if the NPC is reasonably priced, that's quite the squeeze and probably not worth it.
In order for crafting to really work, there have to be items worth crafting, worth having, but not must-haves. That requires a wide variety of loot, to have a significant subset like that. And I still tend to see loot as a distraction to the goals, not the actual goal.
Ah, the old punch/counter-punch. Make a big world that takes time to explore. Then make mounts so it doesn't take so long. And housing doesn't make all that much sense to me either, but we're not talking about what I want.It's a big increase in server requirements, but not prohibitively so. And it definitely does add realism. In fact, the bigger you go, the more realistic it gets. That way you can avoid competition over resources, and the shock of watching monsters respawn in thin air. Of course many people won't want to go far from town, so it will happen anyway.
The problem I tend to have with non-instanced worlds is when resources are far exceeded by need. As in there's only one Baron Von Evil, but 18 people need his head so they wait in line for him to respawn. If you have it, but don't run missions there, will that satisfy, or will players just say there's no reason to go? I don't know.
The response is always that "oh, but creating character models and movements is so hard! It takes a lot of artist time." This is one area where games seem to be re-creating the wheel a lot. Sure textures and models get better over time, but licensing from each other would IMHO not break the uniqueness of any game while sharing costs between them.Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
'Course it's a clever idea
Anyway yeah the 'create the quest after the group is formed' idea has been percolating around in my head since my time designing muds. We played with it a bit back then but MUDDLE wasn't really suited to code it and doing it ourselves in Ansi C (no such animal as C++ back then) was just too much work for a buncha college kids making games in their spare time... so I never got around to playing with the idea much but it's got LOADS of potential.
As to the whole "availability" / Competition with NPC's thing crafting can do this quite well. All you have to do is very similar to how most other successful crafting/loot meld MMO's handle it:
1) Have a NPC vendor who catalogues all the various player inventories on player vendors (Much like DAOC, EQ2 and SWG did (well ok in SWG it was a terminal) and either allows you to buy it right there or tells you where to go to get it (personally I like the buying it right there idea best)
2) Have a NPC vendor who sells similar items at a slightly increased price thus allowing players to cut a profit but also helping control inflation by offering common items at slightly inflated (but still reasonable) prices so players will never go into an overcharging frenzy.
3) Have more rare items be lootable and offer similar items that can be crafted. Allow the player economy to control the pricing of either. It has worked well in every MMO I've played that has crafting. As long as you allow players to craft equivalent items the looted items don't skyrocket in price too much and neither do the player made items because yuou can always go quest/hunt to get the item if the prices get too outrageous.
On the 'explorable' and 'non instanced' world concept there's no reason it should ever overtax current hardware. Seriously with the type of equipment available today you could make a graphically beautiful world with random areas, etc. AC1 did it just fine. SWG did it just fine and many other titles are doing it now. Remember: Most of the game would still be taking place within instances... the explorable world is out there for those who either don't want to group, dont' feel like grouping, are out um... exploring or for getting from point a to point b in a slightly less monotonous way... or for those players who are in the mood to craft and want to go out and gather resources.
In fact if I were to incorporate PVP that's where I'd do it... out there in that non-instanced big world... the threat of being attacked by brigands while exploring or mining always made UO pretty fun.
As to emotes? I think MMO makers have gotten a bit crazy about the whole "every emote must be tied to an animation" theme that's been going on. Even just having the old MUD style emotes where you type /poke while targetting someone and it says "Elnator pokes you in the ribs" to the target and "Elnator pokes <name> in the ribs" to everyone else is all that most people really need/want. I mean, yeah, it's nice to see the animation... but even just a line of text adds to the roleplay feel.
EQ1 had a very nice blend of animated emotes and just text emotes. It made for a very immersive feel to the game when people used them.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Why is it even in the MMORPG genre?
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The bulk of your quests get put in at the start, if the game is short of quests its always going to be short. They can add content later but they will always be playing catchup and it will never be enough.
For all the things wrong with WoW the game is deep. They added just so many little touches. The flight birds are different for the two sides. There is a subway train you can get on and travel through a tunnel. There are boats, etc. DDO should have been held off so they could add more to it and make it a real game.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
I am not a fanboy of anything.
I said that your posts (as they relate to DDO) were fanboy cheerleading. In the past you have been pretty vocal in your support of the poorly designed thing Turbine tried to pass off as a game, and didn't have much tolerance for folks who disagreed with you. Now you agree with those who are disappointed with the way the game has turned out. You changed your mind ... nothing wrong with that.
It's not an attack, and you needn't be upset by it. It was a statement of fact based on what you have posted here before regarding the game. Given how easy it is to go back through these forums and see someone's posting history, anyone can see for themselves.
There are a lot of former supporters of this game who are leaving now. Lovesmasher, Jabbamagnus, and Talon54 are three names that leap to mind. Now Jd1680a can just be added to the list.
Its a statement of your opinion. It is an attack. Appearently anyone who doesn't agree with your OPINION gets called names like fanboi. You are right though. He should not get upset by forum trolls and asshats like you.
What list are you on? Oh wait NM we covered that already. And please dont get mad at my post. Its a statement of fact you are nothing but a flaming troll.
Interesting reading. Let's see now ... Unless I misread what was written, in that post you called me both a troll and an asshat because I had a differeing opinion from you. I think that folks might agree that "Troll" and "Asshat" could be classified as insults.
Now, here's a post of yours I found in the SWG forum:
I would say that the evidence makes you, at best, a hypocrite.
That's just my opinion, of course. And quite frankly ... I really don't care if you get mad about it or not.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas