instanced

Squal'Zell · August 2006

ok this will be the only topic i start today (yesterday i did way to many for my taste)

this is not a complaint im just opening up a discussion

instanced dungeons... why? An MMO is suposed to be persistant world. not a world where 10-20 parties can go in the same dungeon and never see eachother... that just defeats the MMO style gameplay. MMO is to make games close to a real living world (in a given universe of course)

so if you are killing something and some one decides to pass by and gives the final blow, well thats to bad thats life. if a party goes in a cave and clears it... well if you go in that cave there should not be anything left. that gives also the element of roleplay. like scavenger characters can just go in and claim the loot no one wanted and left on the floor.

anyway you have looting rights whitch take care of ninja looters (btw on that topic ninja looting should only be allowed in open pvp games but thats a different topic)

ok my sig says i play GW, but thats different thats ALL instanced. and besides i dont consider that as a true MMOG. its more of a diablo2 style with interactive server choosing (again thats another topic lol)

true MMORPG should

1 not have instanced dungoens

2 have open pvp (my god i go way off topic.. i just have so much to talk about )

Apocalyptica · August 2006

Totally agree with you. Instanced dungeons are just well boring. Or like DDO where they instanced even the tavern. First the new "mmorpg's" have forgotten the RP in them, and now they even forget the first M. By instancing everything these games feel like a normal internet playable game, not like you are playing with thousands of other peeps on the same server. They should really be called MOG's. There is not much more left from a true MMORPG.

holythough · August 2006

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

ok this will be the only topic i start today (yesterday i did way to many for my taste)
this is not a complaint im just opening up a discussion
instanced dungeons... why? An MMO is suposed to be persistant world. not a world where 10-20 parties can go in the same dungeon and never see eachother... that just defeats the MMO style gameplay. MMO is to make games close to a real living world (in a given universe of course)
so if you are killing something and some one decides to pass by and gives the final blow, well thats to bad thats life. if a party goes in a cave and clears it... well if you go in that cave there should not be anything left. that gives also the element of roleplay. like scavenger characters can just go in and claim the loot no one wanted and left on the floor.
anyway you have looting rights whitch take care of ninja looters (btw on that topic ninja looting should only be allowed in open pvp games but thats a different topic)
ok my sig says i play GW, but thats different thats ALL instanced. and besides i dont consider that as a true MMOG. its more of a diablo2 style with interactive server choosing (again thats another topic lol)
true MMORPG should
1 not have instanced dungoens
2 have open pvp (my god i go way off topic.. i just have so much to talk about )

I think that instacing is a easy way to lower development cost sins to have enough meaningfull content not to have peeps complain all the time about not enough camp spots and overcrowed dugeons isn't easy. I remeber that in DAoC although no instances a lot of complains where about lack of good exp spots because the "good" spots where more or less camped 24/7 and peeps keeping list of replacements so to keep camp spots occupied. This has it's own disadvantages. ALthough in the perfect mmorpg you should have no instances it's kinda hard to accomplis this in a satifying way for all players. You either have enough contents with alot of empty space not used very often or peeps complaining about to little content or instancing just an developers choice

Jorev · August 2006

Just avoid games with instancing, as already said it ruins immersion and is done because it's a cheap out for game producers. You gotta send these game companies the message by withholding your money, it's the only message they undertsand.

Squal'Zell · August 2006

whoa i didnt think it made that much of a disapointment in the MMORPG.com poll people like 50/50

when they put the first instance in SWG (corelian corvette) all you saw is people going up there and thats it... every hunting spot was empty. what SWG did is that they put many spawns of "good loot monsters" so people dont camp the sites, instead the camp a zone.

you might see 1 or 2 people while you hunt for your "good loot mob" and hunt parties as well... it was great. (of course there where exeption with caves. but they put many items to hunt for as well...

is there any major post about instances?

Wolfenpride · August 2006

Instancing happened because players kept complaining of kill stealers, camp stealers, etc.

Now your complaining about instances????

Make your god damn minds up people, you want instancing or not?

geesh..

Jorev · August 2006

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Instancing happened because players kept complaining of kill stealers, camp stealers, etc.
Now your complaining about instances????
Make your god damn minds up people, you want instancing or not?
geesh..

Killstealing and campstealing are easily solved without instancing.

In WoW whoever attacks the mob first owns the kill, simple logical solution.

Campstealing is simply resolved if producers are not lazy and don't design a linear raid style game. Drops should drop randomly from a variety of similar difficulty type mobs. The days of camping a specific mob for a specific item should be long gone.

Wolfjunkie · August 2006

Instanced areas, if done well, can be used to increase the immersion of the world. Mainly because you can create scripted encounters, cutscreens and whatnot.. Which would not work in non-instanced areas.

Scaris · August 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

Originally posted by Wolfenpride
Instancing happened because players kept complaining of kill stealers, camp stealers, etc.
Now your complaining about instances????
Make your god damn minds up people, you want instancing or not?
geesh..Killstealing and campstealing are easily solved without instancing.
In WoW whoever attacks the mob first owns the kill, simple logical solution.
Campstealing is simply resolved if producers are not lazy and don't design a linear raid style game. Drops should drop randomly from a variety of similar difficulty type mobs. The days of camping a specific mob for a specific item should be long gone.

Oh ya, real fair when you slash your way through an entire dungeon to get to the guy you need and some tool runs through the whole thing that you just cleared and tags him while you are busy fighting the guy before him. WAY fair...

Jorev · August 2006

Most respawn times don't allow that. The guy would have to be shadowing you or your group the whole time in order to avoid having to fight his way there.

And if he can kill the mob without help then it's his. Obviously you are not gonna help him I hope.

Part of being in a MMOG is dealing with finite resources and competition. Hopefully though the game has PvP and you can kill him.

Smirch · August 2006

If anyone here could remember what first gen Everquest was like then this thread wouldn't have started. Light instancing in a game is a godsend.

And seriously, who roleplays in these games? Unless you are dressing up as an anime character and prancing down to Comic Con chances are you aren't a roleplayer.

The vast majority of people that play these games aren't RPers, if anything they should be called MMOPVPGs.

Jorev · August 2006

The problem with original old school EQ1 was that it didn't have common sense designs to prevent killstealing and camping and twinking. We have them now.

First tag on mob owns looting rights, killstealing problem solved; multiple mobs of same difficulty sharing the same loot tables, camping problem solved; minimum level user restrictions on all items, twinking problem solved;

Old school EQ1, though a great game the first few years, became a very linear designed raid style game by mandating specific mobs be killed in order to get specific loot or gain access to certain content. That is old school way of thinking and MMOGs have evolved beyond that I hope.

baronviktor · August 2006

Originally posted by Smirch

If anyone here could remember what first gen Everquest was like then this thread wouldn't have started. Light instancing in a game is a godsend.
And seriously, who roleplays in these games? Unless you are dressing up as an anime character and prancing down to Comic Con chances are you aren't a roleplayer.
The vast majority of people that play these games aren't RPers, if anything they should be called MMOPVPGs.

There are still alot of games out there that people play for the social aspects of the game not everyone is a powerlevelling pvp nerd.

nthnaoun · August 2006

Depends on how it is developed into the game. It is not realistic or life when some one griefs you. Not many people would grief another person in real life, because they would be too scared of getting the butt kicked. Open PvP is not realistic or like real life either, because people don't run around killing people every second.

So you gotta place rules to make up for the anonymity. Such as making PvP realm vrs realm or perhaps flagging.

On one hand you say you should be able to make the last blow, because that is just life. Well the same can be said of ninja looting. But I don't support either one of them.

They need to make the important parts of quests instanced so that the jerks will not make the game bad for others. It's called forcing people to play nice, just like they would in real life if they were in person. You will argue that you would grief someone in real life, but I frankly don't believe you. Not many people grief in real life, because there are laws and also there is fear...fear of getting your butt whooped.

So important parts of quests need to be instanced and possible the PvP should be instanced to cut down on lag. Cities should not be instanced, area's other than the above said, should not be either.

Squal'Zell · August 2006

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Depends on how it is developed into the game. It is not realistic or life when some one griefs you. Not many people would grief another person in real life, because they would be too scared of getting the butt kicked. Open PvP is not realistic or like real life either, because people don't run around killing people every second.
So you gotta place rules to make up for the anonymity. Such as making PvP realm vrs realm or perhaps flagging.
On one hand you say you should be able to make the last blow, because that is just life. Well the same can be said of ninja looting. But I don't support either one of them.
They need to make the important parts of quests instanced so that the jerks will not make the game bad for others. It's called forcing people to play nice, just like they would in real life if they were in person. You will argue that you would grief someone in real life, but I frankly don't believe you. Not many people grief in real life, because there are laws and also there is fear...fear of getting your butt whooped.
So important parts of quests need to be instanced and possible the PvP should be instanced to cut down on lag. Cities should not be instanced, area's other than the above said, should not be either.

your right they dont go around killing people cuz of the consequences.. (laws and stuff) then why not incorporate similar laws into the game, dont ask me how. but UO kinda got close to it.

example (not necessarely a good one) by attacking another player (pvp) the player who initiated the combat automatically forfeits his respawn right becoming a permadeath, at same time character lvls should not be visible to all... so you will think twice upon attacking 1 person, if you dont know what level they are. make serious consequences. but then again you need to establish legit pvp like guild fights or if you see an oposing faction or are at war(declared) with another guild... etc... but by attacking without reason, the player will forfeit all respawn rights (the defendant does not forfeit)

or simpler solution... make a game with permadeath open pvp everywhere no instances clans/guilds and call it a hard core MMORPG where they tell you that this is a hard to play MMO that if you dont like the rules dont play, basically no rules and permadeath... (anarchy online ... damn to bad that name is already taken...)

but instanced was not the best solution to get rid of KS Ninja looting greifers and idiots...

Jhughesy · August 2006

If a game has instancing or no PvP then I won't play it.

nthnaoun · August 2006

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Depends on how it is developed into the game. It is not realistic or life when some one griefs you. Not many people would grief another person in real life, because they would be too scared of getting the butt kicked. Open PvP is not realistic or like real life either, because people don't run around killing people every second.
So you gotta place rules to make up for the anonymity. Such as making PvP realm vrs realm or perhaps flagging.
On one hand you say you should be able to make the last blow, because that is just life. Well the same can be said of ninja looting. But I don't support either one of them.
They need to make the important parts of quests instanced so that the jerks will not make the game bad for others. It's called forcing people to play nice, just like they would in real life if they were in person. You will argue that you would grief someone in real life, but I frankly don't believe you. Not many people grief in real life, because there are laws and also there is fear...fear of getting your butt whooped.
So important parts of quests need to be instanced and possible the PvP should be instanced to cut down on lag. Cities should not be instanced, area's other than the above said, should not be either.

your right they dont go around killing people cuz of the consequences.. (laws and stuff) then why not incorporate similar laws into the game, dont ask me how. but UO kinda got close to it.

example (not necessarely a good one) by attacking another player (pvp) the player who initiated the combat automatically forfeits his respawn right becoming a permadeath, at same time character lvls should not be visible to all... so you will think twice upon attacking 1 person, if you dont know what level they are. make serious consequences. but then again you need to establish legit pvp like guild fights or if you see an oposing faction or are at war(declared) with another guild... etc... but by attacking without reason, the player will forfeit all respawn rights (the defendant does not forfeit)

or simpler solution... make a game with permadeath open pvp everywhere no instances clans/guilds and call it a hard core MMORPG where they tell you that this is a hard to play MMO that if you dont like the rules dont play, basically no rules and permadeath... (anarchy online ... damn to bad that name is already taken...)

but instanced was not the best solution to get rid of KS Ninja looting greifers and idiots...

I'm a firm believer of having open pvp with perma death, as long as it's done right. There has been many discussions on how people can exploit a system like yours and how people can also hack it.

Jorev · August 2006

By asking for protection against any competition thru instancing though, you create another serious problem, one of farming. An instance is a cash cow for farming wether it be for in-game use or second hand sales. That is bad for the economy as has been the case for WoW and other games that use too much instancing. MMOGs inherently have to have a certain amount of healthy competition and finite resources.

You may say though that the loot should be "no-drop" or "no trade" to solve this.

Well one of the things that contribute to camping and a linear style of play is the artificial "no-drop - "no trade" tag that some games utilize, especially on higher end loot. Not only is it unrealistic but it's a stupid design because again it reinforces linear style gameplay.

I don't want to play games that force me into a linear pattern of having to fight certain mobs or run a specific instance. I should be able to trade for anything in the game. If I have created wealth thru crafting, why can't I buy the best dropped items if they are on the market and I have the funds for it? This is realistic, as their rarity and quality will prevent too many from being available for trade, and it provides avenues for those who are less into adventuring to still legitimately earn them, if they have created wealth in-game thru other means such as crafting.

Squal'Zell · August 2006

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by nthnaoun

Depends on how it is developed into the game. It is not realistic or life when some one griefs you. Not many people would grief another person in real life, because they would be too scared of getting the butt kicked. Open PvP is not realistic or like real life either, because people don't run around killing people every second.
So you gotta place rules to make up for the anonymity. Such as making PvP realm vrs realm or perhaps flagging.
On one hand you say you should be able to make the last blow, because that is just life. Well the same can be said of ninja looting. But I don't support either one of them.
They need to make the important parts of quests instanced so that the jerks will not make the game bad for others. It's called forcing people to play nice, just like they would in real life if they were in person. You will argue that you would grief someone in real life, but I frankly don't believe you. Not many people grief in real life, because there are laws and also there is fear...fear of getting your butt whooped.
So important parts of quests need to be instanced and possible the PvP should be instanced to cut down on lag. Cities should not be instanced, area's other than the above said, should not be either.

your right they dont go around killing people cuz of the consequences.. (laws and stuff) then why not incorporate similar laws into the game, dont ask me how. but UO kinda got close to it.

example (not necessarely a good one) by attacking another player (pvp) the player who initiated the combat automatically forfeits his respawn right becoming a permadeath, at same time character lvls should not be visible to all... so you will think twice upon attacking 1 person, if you dont know what level they are. make serious consequences. but then again you need to establish legit pvp like guild fights or if you see an oposing faction or are at war(declared) with another guild... etc... but by attacking without reason, the player will forfeit all respawn rights (the defendant does not forfeit)

or simpler solution... make a game with permadeath open pvp everywhere no instances clans/guilds and call it a hard core MMORPG where they tell you that this is a hard to play MMO that if you dont like the rules dont play, basically no rules and permadeath... (anarchy online ... damn to bad that name is already taken...)

but instanced was not the best solution to get rid of KS Ninja looting greifers and idiots...

I'm a firm believer of having open pvp with perma death, as long as it's done right. There has been many discussions on how people can exploit a system like yours and how people can also hack it.

not if done right with a big budget (encriptions like banks have, firewalls like the pentagon have wtv.... if done right it can work (and by open pvp i mean no safe zones, not even in towns (ok maybe exept your house.. that can be broken into by a thief and then kill you in your sleep) so a high lvl guy can go around killing newcommers everywhere... hahaha but there would not be any advantages...) make harsh consequences. that should eliminate all problems.

nthnaoun · August 2006

Originally posted by Jorev

By asking for protection against any competition thru instancing though, you create another serious problem, one of farming. An instance is a cash cow for farming wether it be for in-game use or second hand sales. That is bad for the economy as has been the case for WoW and other games that use too much instancing. MMOGs inherently have to have a certain amount of healthy competition and finite resources.
You may say though that the loot should be "no-drop" or "no trade" to solve this.
Well one of the things that contribute to camping and a linear style of play is the artificial "no-drop - "no trade" tag that some games utilize, especially on higher end loot. Not only is it unrealistic but it's a stupid design because again it reinforces linear style gameplay.
I don't want to play games that force me into a linear pattern of having to fight certain mobs or run a specific instance. I should be able to trade for anything in the game. If I have created wealth thru crafting, why can't I buy the best dropped items if they are on the market and I have the funds for it? This is realistic, as their rarity and quality will prevent too many from being available for trade, and it provides avenues for those who are less into adventuring to still legitimately earn them, if they have created wealth in-game thru other means such as crafting.

Not really a valid argument. Of course making it "no-trade" will solve the problem. Even in non-instanced games where you could camp a spot suffered from farming. Except only a few benefited from it and those were the ones with more friends. DAoC was a prime example of this.

If you are a crafter, you should have no interest in rare weapons and armor, because you can't use them. Unless of course you want to buy them and sell them for even more money, which would require a stable economy which no MMO has yet to produce. Every MMO's economy has been geared for twinks.

Instanced works as does "no-trade" items. My opinion is, if you don't have the skill to get the items, you shouldn't be using them. If you can buy them off the market, so can the gold buyers. This turns into a twink system, where people are buying gold to buy the items that they don't want to work for.

Wolfjunkie · August 2006

Originally posted by Smirch

And seriously, who roleplays in these games? Unless you are dressing up as an anime character and prancing down to Comic Con chances are you aren't a roleplayer.

What kind of statement are that?
There is many kinds of roleplayers. Everything from LARP'ers, PnP'ers, to the people who enjoy a bit of RPing in the bedroom.

I love RPing. Both PnP, and CRPGs. The game just needs to have roleplayers in mind(SWG did well, here).

mozis · August 2006

Originally posted by Jhughesy
If a game has instancing or no PvP then I won't play it.

Congrats on closing yourself down to the possibility of finding an instanced game you might actually enjoy! I'm not in the mood to argue this topic but something needs to be said for GW...

Smirch · August 2006

RPers are a minority in most MMO games. Yes, there are many different ways to roleplay, but that doesn't change the fact that only a small majority buy a game with the sole intention of acting like a wood elf mincing about a forest and communing with squirrels.

In fact, most people buy a game so they can kill people like that.

Copeland · August 2006

Originally posted by Smirch
If anyone here could remember what first gen Everquest was like then this thread wouldn't have started. Light instancing in a game is a godsend.
And seriously, who roleplays in these games? Unless you are dressing up as an anime character and prancing down to Comic Con chances are you aren't a roleplayer.
The vast majority of people that play these games aren't RPers, if anything they should be called MMOPVPGs.

I remember what EQ was like at the start and you know what.. I loved it. Why? you might ask. Well because people got a reputation for being nitwit - SMIRCH - and then when they asked to be added to the list they were promptly laughed at by the party but sat there waiting to be invited. Then instancing came about and running those instanced missions were a nightmare outside of a guild group because half the nooblars - SMIRCH - would leave in the middle of an instance causing the whole group to fail.

What do we know about smirch? He's not roleplaying. Which is sad.

Copeland · August 2006

Enjoy your ban.. while banned please try to think of an original put down. Thanks.

Smirch · August 2006

And one ring to bind them.

Smooch.

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