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Trader Revamp: What it looks like...
SpottyGekko
Member EpicPosts: 6,916
Helios has given us his main direction with the coming changes, and it looks like SWG and EQ2 crafting are heading the same way:
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Looks like most of your posts are focusin on Decay and Mass Harvesting & Production. I'll ask some question i relation to those items:
Who benefits from decay except for crafters? A portion of the population sees decay on the same level as forcing combatants to socialize in cantinas after fighting in order to provide content for entertainers. What about an alternate mechanism (something that's not decay) to accomplish the same things as decay without the punishment factor? Something that feels rewarding to both side of the coin.
EQ2:
10% decay whenever you die, fully repairable at any NPC mender for a very reasonable price (this is "worse" than SWG which has no decay at all). This means there is no friction between crafters and fighters about repair prices, as SOE gets the coin.
You outgrow your equipment as you level up. Crafed equipment is only slightly better than the worst loot drops, so it is only really used as a temporary filler until you can loot a superior item.
95% of ingame items (looted or crafted) are "attuned" to the character before they can be used. Thereafter they are not tradeable (but can be sold to NPC's). This removes items from circulation, creating demand.
What's the point of mass harvesting/crafting if items don't get destroyed and there isn't a demand for a high volume of the same items? If the only hang up is items that you need stacks of, why not just make the crafting process create a stack/crate of the stuff without requiring a long factory run?
EQ2:
All items are individually crafted (no mass production) by the different crafting professions.
All raw materials are generic, the "value" is determined by the level of the area where it is harvested.
Occasionally, you will receive a "rare" material while harvesting or as a loot drop. These are sought-after, as they can be used to craft superior items (these items are better than common loot drops, but inferior to "boss mob" drops)
All raw materials are harvested by hand by a crafter or fighter that has the appropriate harvesting "level" (the recent crafter revamp on EQ2 increased the amount that is harvested with each "pull" dramatically)
What if crafters moved away from being wal-mart warehouses and moved closer to becoming specialized item craftsmen that spent time and effort on making an individual item great and unique(ish) based on skill, resources and rare components? Perhaps item crafting isn't a one-shot deal and items can be continually modified/adjusted after the initial creation?What if crafters moved away from being wal-mart warehouses and moved closer to becoming specialized item craftsmen that spent time and effort on making an individual item great and unique(ish) based on skill, resources and rare components? Perhaps item crafting isn't a one-shot deal and items can be continually modified/adjusted after the initial creation?
EQ2:
Items used to be made by combining a number of subcomponents. In the recent EQ2 crafter revamp, all subcombines were removed. You now make an item in one step.
In the next EQ2 expansion, items will be craftable with "sockets", which can contain crafted or looted enhancements. There will also be a sub-proffesion that specialises in re-engineering crafted and loot items to extract the "rare" components for re-use in new crafted items.
What if crafters moved away from being wal-mart warehouses and moved closer to becoming specialized item craftsmen that spent time and effort on making an individual item great and unique(ish) based on skill, resources and rare components? Perhaps item crafting isn't a one-shot deal and items can be continually modified/adjusted after the initial creation?What if crafters moved away from being wal-mart warehouses and moved closer to becoming specialized item craftsmen that spent time and effort on making an individual item great and unique(ish) based on skill, resources and rare components? Perhaps item crafting isn't a one-shot deal and items can be continually modified/adjusted after the initial creation?
EQ2:
Items used to be made by combining a number of subcomponents. In the recent EQ2 crafter revamp, all subcombines were removed. You now make an item in one step.
In the next EQ2 expansion, items will be craftable with "sockets", which can contain crafted or looted enhancements. There will also be a sub-proffesion that specialises in re-engineering crafted and loot items to extract the "rare" components for re-use in new crafted items.
-The Dread Lord Helios
-Lead Designer, SWG
"There is no reality in the absence of observation."
Is the EQ2 crafting system just the generic MMO crafting pattern, and SWG is being steered that way ? I have never played WOW, but the EQ2 crafters were complaining that the recent revamp made EQ2 crafting less complex (?!) and more like WOW....
Looks to me like there is a certain "convergence" happening here. Is it a coincidence that these 2 games are both developed by SOE ? Could they be intending to use the same design patterns for crafting in both games ?
So, simpler and quicker for the player, and simpler and quicker to maintain for the Dev's. Everybody wins, right ? It is rumoured that EQ2 only has 1 developer assigned to crafting...
There was even a rumour that crafting in SWG will become a secondary profession like pilot. That is exactly what EQ2 does, you can be a crafter and a fighter if you so desire.
Comments
http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=1074786
Julio! You got some 'splaining to do!
Lol, good 'ole SOE ! Bait and switch ftw !
Well, after the hot reception that Helios's post got, it seems that they are trying to calm the masses. Not a trace of dissappearing harvesters or factories in that new post
In fact, the new post is almost the opposite of what Helios was proposing. Now, who has more clout, Helios (Lead Designer, SWG) or Chrysalide (SWG Lead Systems Designer) ? Only time will tell...
Those new ideas sound quite good, though. But then, the "revamp" is a long way off. I seem to remember that the original "combat revamp" discussion started out very well, but ended up changing the game from a sandbox-design into a level-based system...
Lol, good 'ole SOE ! Bait and switch ftw !
Well, after the hot reception that Helios's post got, it seems that they are trying to calm the masses. Not a trace of dissappearing harvesters or factories in that new post
In fact, the new post is almost the opposite of what Helios was proposing. Now, who has more clout, Helios (Lead Designer, SWG) or Chrysalide (SWG Lead Systems Designer) ? Only time will tell...
Those new ideas sound quite good, though. But then, the "revamp" is a long way off. I seem to remember that the original "combat revamp" discussion started out very well, but ended up changing the game from a sandbox-design into a level-based system...
I liked my harvesters, and the 'landscape of decrepit harvesters' description is bunk, if they decayed properly and poofed when you didn't maintain them, there would be no such thing. If they packed up the houses of players who cancelled, they'd open up a lot more landscape than replacing harvesters with 'burrowing droids' ...
But if that tosses a bone to people bitching about the 'crowded landscape' (of vast planets with basically no content today), so be it .... if they could actually implement the burrowing droid system without massive bugs. Haha, of course I kid. New system without massive bugs in Galaxies ..... oh, good one.
Ah, but think of the benefits of the "burrowing droid system":
This is from the Dev-Chrysalide working on the Trader Portion... This is what she has been thinking...
Hello everyone,
The there was a lot of good feedback and a fresh ideas coming from the previous thread on this topic, but it was getting a little big and cumbersome, so we've started up a new thread to keep the discussion going.
To start this thread off, I am going to take some of the ideas that were mentioned in the previous one, and hypothetically hypothesize a hypothetical crafting system. Let's talk about the pros and cons of a crafting system that might work this way. Keep in mind that this is just a big list of "what ifs". Absolutely nothing has been set in stone. It hasn't even been set in wet dirt.
Reverse Engineering and Attachments
Decay
Mass Harvesting
Factories
As you give your thoughts on this, remember that this is just a hypothetical system. Everything that we've discussed already is still in play. Nothing has been completely cut out, and nothing has been absolutely accepted. We still want to hear any and all of your ideas any anything trader, crafter, harvester, and/or merchant related. Don't be afraid to think outside of the box!
Also, I like confectionaries...
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Lets leave him out of the crafter revamp. Whatever happened to ChrisCao, do it to Helios as well.
Message Edited by ChrisCao on 08-18-2006 12:37 PM
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Sounds like the SWG Dev version of Good Cop/Bad Cop to me. Helios' "vision" was so appalling that any "alternative" ideas are more likely to be thankfully accepted without further thought or consideration.
So'fe Sose, Naritus, SWG- Forcibly Retired
Friends don't let friends SWG...
You don't remove code from the game you just stop calling it. I wish people would get that into their head. That is just like their bs about the new combat system streamlining the game. All it did was add a big plate onto the top of the old game and made it even bulkier.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Don't hate saying it too much that post offers minimul changes and then does what should have been done months ago, it finally updates crafting bringing it more in line with the nge changes.
Sadly I also think that is why it will never be seen as more then a post as they don't seem to be able to merely fix and update without completely revamping.
I suspect what will be seen is a revamp that brings crafting more into line with EQ2 and WoW crafting.
Not to nitpick...
But Chrysalide's name in the Sig is Jeff Carpenter...
Kinda doubt that Chrysalide is a she
Not to nitpick...
But Chrysalide's name in the Sig is Jeff Carpenter...
Kinda doubt that Chrysalide is a she
They are all nothing but leeeeeetle girls.
This doesn't look like as bad a plan. What do crafter types think?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Not to nitpick...
But Chrysalide's name in the Sig is Jeff Carpenter...
Kinda doubt that Chrysalide is a she
They are all nothing but leeeeeetle girls.
This doesn't look like as bad a plan. What do crafter types think?
Meh. I'll wait until I see more specifics.
This plan is much (much) better then the one Helios first presented. Keeps harvestors (in a different form) and also keeps factories so we're not campin over a spot for a day just harvesting resources by hand and we're not mindlessley stuck making components all day. I don't really care what a harvestor looks like, just as long as it does what they do now.
Being able to take certain stats from items and put them into your own crafted item is something I thought they'd do for a while. With this change there's no reason for people to use looted armour at all, if I can make armour with hugely superior resists to looted armour (as it is now) combined with looted armour stat mods loot armour loses its only advantage. Also means I can finally wear clothes that look good WITH stats!
Not to nitpick...
But Chrysalide's name in the Sig is Jeff Carpenter...
Kinda doubt that Chrysalide is a she
Yet you did... its cool, my bad..
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Traders could then apply the attachments to the
sockets to create an item that is at least as desireable (power-wise;
if not more so) than dropped or quested items, with the added bonus of
being more or less customizable by the attachments.
This gives a reason for looted items other than hording it for yourself, and puts some nice power back into the hands of the crafters. After that, I would add a few more crafted items that are innately better to bring more equality between loot and crafted creations (As a whole, that is), and I think you'd actually have a nice balance between the two systems.
Honestly, I'm astonished that SOE came up with this.
Not to nitpick...
But Chrysalide's name in the Sig is Jeff Carpenter...
Kinda doubt that Chrysalide is a she
Yet you did... its cool, my bad..
Heh. I nearly did the same thing, guess the forum handle of Chrysalide leads people to think female.
There was some mention of crafters in cnet after this doing crafter re pair lines., While that in and of itself is not bad i can remember after cu when so many folks left that time running around looking for auto repair kits and finding them at 500 k which to many players seemed like nada but to those always struggling ah gesh cheaper to find another bike.
Also what if they decide their precious jedi will not have any decay on robes sabers considering the game is Jedi centric thanks to developers attention to said class and NGE fallout how is that fair to everyone else?
That brings us back to the question of should one class of peoples game play suffer due to another class for purely content reasons?
I wonder if the folks posting to these consecpt threads on the fourms really think the development team will change what they are doing? Many times they asked and did what the development team wanted to do anyway
While there are penalites in every mmorpg keep making drastic game play changes even to the basic core of the game then you will continue to bleed subscribers.
Sounds like the SWG Dev version of Good Cop/Bad Cop to me. Helios' "vision" was so appalling that any "alternative" ideas are more likely to be thankfully accepted without further thought or consideration.
Agreed, and when/if any of this happens only a few ideas listed will happen and they'll be watered down and bugged to hell and back!
Oh and Obraik, I thought you said that crafted items were already equal to or better than nearly all looted items? I must've read you wrong
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Sounds like the SWG Dev version of Good Cop/Bad Cop to me. Helios' "vision" was so appalling that any "alternative" ideas are more likely to be thankfully accepted without further thought or consideration.
Agreed, and when/if any of this happens only a few ideas listed will happen and they'll be watered down and bugged to hell and back!
Oh and Obraik, I thought you said that crafted items were already equal to or better than nearly all looted items? I must've read you wrong
Looted, yes. For weaponsmith, quested rewards are nearly always better at the high end. There are some (very few, but still...) though that use looted armour for the stats as they think the stats outweigh the resists. If I can put those in my armour then there's nothing beneficial about the looted armour at all. That's what I was trying to say before :P
The thing is I don't remember anyone complaining about crafted items or the crafting system pre-cu. I used to use some of the merc armour Liea wore in EP VI (don't remember the name of it). I'd use that for grinding/making cash as it was cheaper than composite and had high enough resists, then repair it when needed until I had to buy a new suit. Comp was for hunting Jedi filth, back then no-one complained but maybe I'm wrong.
I just never saw a reason to change the game the way they did, and they never seem to change things for the better in the long run. I mean combat/crafting/entertaining and everything else has just been progressively down graded over time. I know you're the eternal optimist Obraik but you know the past probably better than I do, can you say combat has balance now 9 months after the NGE? Can you say only 2 profs having expertise is fair to the playerbase, Jedi and BH at that which brings up many questions by itself?
Now they want to change the crafting system, but the combat profs are in disarray three months after the "Just give us six months" deadline has ended! The trial doesn't work, lag is worse than at any point in history, servers are unpopulated, senators are being abusive and hatefull towards the playerbase, 45 people turned up to the last SWG fanfest/summit/whatever they call it now. Comeone Obraik, you know as well as I that the last thing they need to do is this.
Did they have a meeting in Austin and the issue at hand was "Which section of the playerbase haven't we **** on from a great height yet?"? Why are they bothered with crafting now? I thought it was all about combat? Expertise is unfinished and combat just doesn't work, have they given up and decided to deflect the blast by making life crappy for crafters?
So they changed the plan for crafters to something easier to swallow? Or is it just another smoke screen and mirrors act, until you get the suprise sprung on you. I think we both know what they're famous for doing. Can someone explain why they believe that continuing to chang SWG will make things better instead of changing bugs? I mean we've all learnt from their mistakes (except a few that like them), when will they?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis