Jorev: I'm throwing down the gauntlet. (Bit long)

magicalsteve · August 2006

I decided to start a new post because the original thread was hijacked.

First I'll rebut this quote:

Originally posted by Jorev

They delivered better graphics that they insisted were turned down during beta? No

They announced a cap for buying sesterces that they said they would? No

Lets just deal with those 2 for now.

The playability factors such as lag and CTDs and extremely boring
incomplete gameplay are relevent considering they had the gall to take
preorders, but just deal with the 2 factual ironclad promises.

All right, the 'promised better graphics' haven't been
implemented because the 'release' brought with it a host of lag and FPS
problems. It's obvious that they're simply prioritising. They need to
make the game playable before it is made beautiful.

Furthermore, the
'promised better graphics' aren't really what you're making them out to
be. They're simply referring to the grass textures that have been
turned off during testing.

You know, that famous screenshot with the two players standing in the tall grass?

That's all it is!

Finally,
a sesterces cap has been promised, but at the moment there is no need
for it. The game is incomplete, a huge purchase of sesterces wouldn't
create a power inbalance, and at the moment RedBedlam need every dime
they can get.

Greedy? That's for you to decide, but considering
they've been working out of their own pockets and spare time for the
last 5 years I personally couldn't give two hoots if they delay the
sesterces cap in order to get a few bucks.
Greedy is a high budget SOE/Blizzard charging money for content upgrades.
What RedBedlam is doing is practically charity.

But moving on...

Jorev, I will glady drop the fanboi act and join you on this issue if you do two things.

Firstly, show me a quote of a RedBedlam employee stating that the
'graphical upgrades' are substantially more than simply the turned-off grass textures.

Secondly, say with sincerity that not only is there an ingame power
imbalance caused by a lack VERM restriction that needs fixing, but also
that by delaying said restrictions RedBedlam are being greedy, after
all the work they have put in to bring innovation to the genre.

Oh, and a quote saying the VERM restriction would be implemented upon release would also help. That one should be easy.

If you do that, I'll admit that I'm wrong and be more critical of RedBedlam.

Jorev · August 2006

My belief is that they would never announce a cap for buying in-game coin, which would reinforce my suggestions they are deceitful, or at best the cap would be so high as to be pointless. As I have said before, if the cap is more than $20 US a month which is a comparable subscription rate price, then their goal is to extract more monies from players in a sneaky way aka the Verm which sucks you in slowly and is manipulated by the developers at will in order to coerce purchase of more in-game coin. I have never believed their stated intent that the Verm is about contolling the economy in a good way.

I see no innovation at this stage of incompleteness to justify a delay of announcing a reasonable cap. You fans keep harping on the effort they have made so far without significant income, but its no different than any other MMOG developer. You don't get a big payday unless you release a quality polished game.

These should cover the graphics issue.

Kanoth:

With ground effects turned off, and only one texture per tile, sure it looks bad...but that's not how it's going to look when everything is turned on. The release client will look better and more on par with the average MMORPG graphics.

-KFR

P.S. The graphics engine is our own - built from scratch within this year. It's really rather sophisticated, extremely capable and integrates perfectly with the other engines that we've had to build - network, sound etc.

P.P.S. When we get to implement all the latest graphics features I'm actually pretty confident that we'll look better than most big-brand MMORPG's out there. After all we'll have most, if not all, of the same graphical systems that the others have and, in my opinion, we already have much better art material than most."

Verm quotes

"There probably will be a limit although not until we've had ample opportunity to work out what it should be.

-KFR"

Kanoth speaking:

Later on he takes away the "probably". Many people in the community thought a limit would be the best way to go here. We agreed. Sorry to burst your bubble Jorev, but yes, there will be a limit.

Was looking for something more specific relating to release, don't see anything at the moment, but the expectation was that working it out meant during beta.

ChuckNorris · August 2006

Hate to say it magical, but Jorev did exactly what you asked of him. Now admit that your wrong, your a fanboi, and be more critical of redbedllam.

Loona35 · August 2006

Jorev - Magicalsteve

1 - 0

magicalsteve · August 2006

Righto I'll start with the graphics issue.

The nature of those quotes really astounded me. Kanoth saying the game will look 'better and more on par' than the average MMORPG is laughable. Of course in his defence, he does have a disclaimer in his signature:

*The views expressed in the preceding post are those of the author and not RedBedlam Ltd unless otherwise stated

But the disclaimer is a fairly weak defence, he has been misleading on behalf of RBL.

As for KFR's quotes, he does talk up Roma Victor's graphics potential quite a bit. I can't really imagine RV looking better than the big-budget MMORPG's.
However, he does say it will look better "when we get to implement all the latest graphics features".
In the quotes you've provided, KFR never stated that the game will look great upon release. In fact, from what I've heard from him over the months/years is that he's always been in favour of the 'start slow and gradually build up' approach to RV.

As unlikely as his quotes sound, he hasn't lied.

However, in my original post I simply asked for proof that RedBedlam promised more than the grass textures, and you did that quite easily. So I'll concede on that issue and admit defeat. I was blinded by fanaticism and apologize.

Moving on to the VERM issue.

You didn't provide a quote of RBL saying they would implement a VERM cap on release.

Nor did you provide any evidence that there is an immediate need for a VERM cap. I've been playing since gamma and I still don't see an urgent need for it.

But I do believe a VERM cap will be needed eventually.

However, you believe that RBL will set the cap higher than the market rate for subscriptions, then manipulate the game and/or the game's economy to suck more money from the players.

This is impossible.

I'll explain why. Currently I'm in a guild that has its own village. The village is virtually self-sustainable. Now when I say virtually, I mean we still have 3 expenses that I'm aware of.

We need to by thongs, hide and hidescraps from village NPCs to build swords and helmets. This requires a few guild members to make the trip to Erring and spend a portion of their start-up cash every now and then.

Once animals have been implemented and we have mastered the use of them, in theory we will be completely self-sustainable.

Ok, in order for RedBedlam to force money out of the wallets of unwilling players, they would have to permanently delay the introduction of animals. Then, they would have to raise the NPC vendor prices to at least 5 times their current price.

How subtle and sneaky is that? There's no way RBL can force money out of players without drastically changing the game. Such a change would be noticed by everyone.

I personally believe RBL used the VERM for two reasons. Firstly to eliminate 'black market' gold trading. Secondly because they don't honestly believe they could maintain respectable subscription numbers if people had to pay monthly.

In conclusion, you dealt me a crushing defeat on the graphics issue, but I still don't think you've done enough to brand RBL as deceitful criminals on either issue.

PS. If you don't think RBL has done anything innovative, show me one more game on the market that is Open PvP skill-based sandbox, historically authentic, with a tendancy towards zero NPC interaction.

BuZZKilgore · August 2006

Gauntlet is a good game, why throw it down?

hercules · August 2006

well magicalsteve even though i think jorev did a critcal strike on your post and seems generally agreed he proved himself .

But all this attempts to divert from the truth which is all anyone wants to hear and all the non fanboys need to know is-

the game is broken,unfinished,choppy,poorly implemented.I would not even debate if it has the best story or whatever(highly subjective).But the above points are visible and objective .

So if i make a few paper men and post it on the screen and get a server that can hold 100 papermen based entirely on the times of queen victoria .I can proudly come to mmorpg.com and say "show me a mmorpg that is historically based on victorian times "

That holds little water honestly when the game is in fact unfinished and broken with serious network issues.

Rather would it not be better to hang back and let them try fix the game.If you have so much faith in RB i am sure you believe that it be fixed right?

Once the game is fixed then proudly come here and try to get people to join (can't see any other reason for all this fanboy posts about the game having little proplems when its very unstable).

But when you come here and post "game is running much smoother now" and some one buys the game and can see the truth that the game is in total shambles(assuming of course he can actually log in and play for more then 5 mins if the game is in a good mood).

He/she will obviously come here and post how horrible the state of the game is.

Relax back and have faith in the developers(someone has to) and if or when the game is fixed start your PR campaign .At least that you can debate on subjective issues such as gameplay,crafting ,pvp(which i think is totally boring but there you can easily debate and its a subjective matter ).

But clearly objective matters such as dodgy engine,lag,connection issues are plaguing the game you are doing RB no favours by stating that this is fine because for every person that finds out the truth he will discourage 10 people + from trying this game and that my friend is permament damage to RV even if the game becomes the pride of mmorpg tomorrow.

Also since this game relies for future funding on buying ingame money it means people who bought it and found the current state horrible will never return and having giving such bad reviews ppl will brush it aside and move with a new mmorpg that will be just round the corner.

So in conclusion,stop trying to get customers for RV with trying to make this game into a rose when its a thorn atm.When it becomes a rose then by all means start the PR .

magicalsteve · August 2006

Well Hercules.... What can I say?

I'm making no effort to divert any attention from RV's unfinished state.

RV is still filling a niche market, incomplete or not.

I am not running a PR campaign to goad people into playing RV

I have not said that the "game is running much smoother now".

Nor am I in anyway trying to advocate RV as a stable, complete game.

Did

you

even

read

a

single

word

I

wrote?

What I'm doing is a rarity on these forums:

Jorev is perhaps the biggest RV hater on MMORPG.com...

...Instead of simply flaming him and ignoring his posts like all the fanbois have done so far, I'm debating with him on the topic of RBL's integrity in a balanced, unbiased, polite manner whilst being very open to the possibiliy that I am completely wrong.

I'm sorry Hercules, but I honestly hope your other 3170 posts were not comprised of such bandwidth-wasting blather.

grinreaper · August 2006

no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

hercules · August 2006

Originally posted by grinreaper
no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

and who wins the fanboy award haha.

If a game is well below sub standard it will get the attention it deserves in the hate department no question about that.

They took money for it you know.

grinreaper · August 2006

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper
no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

and who wins the fanboy award haha.

If a game is well below sub standard it will get the attention it deserves in the hate department no question about that.

They took money for it you know.

and they give it back if it isnt for you...somthing most games wont do.

Also, I think a fanboi has to think eveything in a game is super and can do no wrong...and that aint me. I am just tired of a few crybabies making gross exagerations.

hercules · August 2006

Originally posted by grinreaper

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper
no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

and who wins the fanboy award haha.

If a game is well below sub standard it will get the attention it deserves in the hate department no question about that.

They took money for it you know.

and they give it back if it isnt for you...somthing most games wont do.

Also, I think a fanboi has to think eveything in a game is super and can do no wrong...and that aint me. I am just tired of a few crybabies making gross exagerations.

No they are giving it back because the game is broken and mostly unplayable similar to dark and light which also had people demanding refunds for similar reason.

If a game is in a working order and boring people will have a hard time proving they are right to demand a refund ,thus boring mmorpg which work rarely see spam threads for refunds because it maybe boring but it works.

In RV case the game is broken and people are demanding refunds on the basis the game is in a bad state and thus mostly unplayable.

grinreaper · August 2006

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper
no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

and who wins the fanboy award haha.

If a game is well below sub standard it will get the attention it deserves in the hate department no question about that.

They took money for it you know.

and they give it back if it isnt for you...somthing most games wont do.

Also, I think a fanboi has to think eveything in a game is super and can do no wrong...and that aint me. I am just tired of a few crybabies making gross exagerations.

No they are giving it back because the game is broken and mostly unplayable similar to dark and light which also had people demanding refunds for similar reason.

If a game is in a working order and boring people will have a hard time proving they are right to demand a refund ,thus boring mmorpg which work rarely see spam threads for refunds because it maybe boring but it works.

In RV case the game is broken and people are demanding refunds on the basis the game is in a bad state and thus mostly unplayable.

Once again Herc, way to be informed...they told ppl they would offer refunds before the game was even alpha. But you just go on thinking the game is broke cuz you didnt enjoy it...

hercules · August 2006

Originally posted by grinreaper

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper
no, they pretty much are...grin. Although Jorev should get some kind of lifetime achievment hater award, herc is the biggest hater on these boards.

and who wins the fanboy award haha.

If a game is well below sub standard it will get the attention it deserves in the hate department no question about that.

They took money for it you know.

and they give it back if it isnt for you...somthing most games wont do.

Also, I think a fanboi has to think eveything in a game is super and can do no wrong...and that aint me. I am just tired of a few crybabies making gross exagerations.

No they are giving it back because the game is broken and mostly unplayable similar to dark and light which also had people demanding refunds for similar reason.

If a game is in a working order and boring people will have a hard time proving they are right to demand a refund ,thus boring mmorpg which work rarely see spam threads for refunds because it maybe boring but it works.

In RV case the game is broken and people are demanding refunds on the basis the game is in a bad state and thus mostly unplayable.

Once again Herc, way to be informed...they told ppl they would offer refunds before the game was even alpha. But you just go on thinking the game is broke cuz you didnt enjoy it...

links?not saying you aren't telling the truth you might be .But never ever saw anything like this and would say its false until i see a link.

Jorev · August 2006

Some people have gotten refunds but it has taken 4 weeks which is not an acceptable level of service. I can process a refund in a few minutes and it would take a week tops to show as a credit in a customer's account.

There aren't many people playing Roma Victor but most of them have probably asked for refunds, so maybe that is why it is taking so long.

grinreaper · August 2006

try getting your money back from D&L and see how long it takes...bet it is longer than 4 weeks

then try getting your money back from SOE or Bliz...I am sure their CS could use a good laugh

as for not many people playing, I guess all those other ppl I see on every night are just imaginary?

hercules · August 2006

Originally posted by grinreaper

then try getting your money back from SOE or Bliz...I am sure their CS could use a good laugh

as for not many people playing, I guess all those other ppl I see on every night are just imaginary?

blizzard and SoE should laugh because at least after the first week their games are playable(yes even SWG was playable after a week depsite it been buggy and laggy).In planetside and EQ2 it was playable from day 1.

Over 6 weeks and the game is barely playable at best and was unplayable for 1 month +.

So yeah in such cases its very justified to ask for a refund.

And yeah the "many people" are basically imaginary sorry

grinreaper · August 2006

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper

then try getting your money back from SOE or Bliz...I am sure their CS could use a good laugh

as for not many people playing, I guess all those other ppl I see on every night are just imaginary?

blizzard and SoE should laugh because at least after the first week their games are playable(yes even SWG was playable after a week depsite it been buggy and laggy).In planetside and EQ2 it was playable from day 1.

Over 6 weeks and the game is barely playable at best and was unplayable for 1 month +.

So yeah in such cases its very justified to ask for a refund.

And yeah the "many people" are basically imaginary sorry

4 words... put....down....the.....crackpipe

SWG was a freaken joke the first month...15$ to watch a slideshow...lag was about 5 times worse than RV ever was.

The game runs great now...I played for about 8 hours last night and no problems whatsoever...the roman town was chock full of people...I actually had to wait in line to use the public stove...first time I wished I was guilded.

You wouldnt know this tho, cuz you bailed as soon as things got a little hard in the game, right?

But all that aside, herc...I have a proposal for you. KFR just announced what they are working on in the first month, both fixes and new things going in. Lets come back here in a month and see how they did in thier first month of upgrades. Then compare that to other games that actually charge a monthly fee...like, say SWG.

You game?

hercules · August 2006

Originally posted by grinreaper
for about 8 hours last night and no problems whatsoever...the roman town was chock full of people...I actually had to wait in line to use the public stove...first time I wished I was guilded.

lol who is using the crackpipe

Here is some posts sadly they are hidden in the participant section which you need an account to read.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15260 the one is about the infinite log in bug

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15254 this one is about the infamous zbts bug.

this are posts that are under 24 hrs old and there are many many others if you can read the forums.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14932 this is one on public discussion that got locked but but should be readable by all.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15201 again it was on the public discussion board so got locked too but readable by all.

Also why do you have to lie about the game been choked with people?Are you afraid if no one else buys this game it will die off or what?

SWG was paradise compared to RV stability.Also SWG was choppy with missing items bug but was playable for me .SWG had hundreds sitting around catina at coronet to cause bad lag(here a good system helps).My 4200+ athlon 2gb and x850xt lags and crashes with only 3 ppl near me (doubt you ever have a situation you get even 50 near you with this game's population).And i am not even a fan of SWG and left it long before the CU even.

Doubt painting a "pretty picture " will convince many anymore.

For those who want more opinon go look at the game list section and check out the reviews .Almost all are saying same thing "its in a bad shape"

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/ratings/setRView/none/gameID/20

You can continue the personal attacks and insults but i see that as a final desperate act and it may matter to a 9 yr old that someone insults him over the internet but not me.All you do by doing personal insults it show the community how desperate fans can be to drag people into their game .

magicalsteve · August 2006

Hercules you're overreacting.

Firstly, saying 'lay down the crack pipe' is hardly what I would call a 'personal insult'. So let's forget about that.

Secondly, everyone knows that the lag isn't completey gone. Grinreaper may have been a little misleading however.

You may have misinterpreted 'the game runs great' as 'the game runs flawlessly'.

Regardless, Grinreaper said he played for 8 hours last night with no lag and the city was full of people. Linking posts with lag complaints doesn't disprove what he said! Are you honestly suggesting he's lying?

Of course there are still server issues, but the devs have drastically improved client performance and the game is well and truly playable in terms of latency and fps. You can't deny that.

*Edit*

On the contrary, here's an excerpt from Tideas's recent thread:

Lag has become unbearable in these past 2 weeks. Even at 3 in the
morning PST. The infinite login screen is back. THere's this new BPWD
now. Still getting rv.exe error crashes every 3 login attempt.

I can't say I've been experiencing this relapse of server lag, but I have been hearing about it.

grinreaper · August 2006

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by grinreaper
for about 8 hours last night and no problems whatsoever...the roman town was chock full of people...I actually had to wait in line to use the public stove...first time I wished I was guilded.

lol who is using the crackpipe

Here is some posts sadly they are hidden in the participant section which you need an account to read.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15260 the one is about the infinite log in bug

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15254 this one is about the infamous zbts bug.

this are posts that are under 24 hrs old and there are many many others if you can read the forums.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14932 this is one on public discussion that got locked but but should be readable by all.

http://www.roma-victor.com/community/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15201 again it was on the public discussion board so got locked too but readable by all.

Also why do you have to lie about the game been choked with people?Are you afraid if no one else buys this game it will die off or what?

SWG was paradise compared to RV stability.Also SWG was choppy with missing items bug but was playable for me .SWG had hundreds sitting around catina at coronet to cause bad lag(here a good system helps).My 4200+ athlon 2gb and x850xt lags and crashes with only 3 ppl near me (doubt you ever have a situation you get even 50 near you with this game's population).And i am not even a fan of SWG and left it long before the CU even.

Doubt painting a "pretty picture " will convince many anymore.

For those who want more opinon go look at the game list section and check out the reviews .Almost all are saying same thing "its in a bad shape"

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/ratings/setRView/none/gameID/20

You can continue the personal attacks and insults but i see that as a final desperate act and it may matter to a 9 yr old that someone insults him over the internet but not me.All you do by doing personal insults it show the community how desperate fans can be to drag people into their game .

If you think I was insulting you, I recommend a thicker skin if you want to play on the internet.

Also, I love how you took one part of my post, ignored the rest and went on.

So, lets look at what you have selected. First, in the course of a day you managed to scrape up 4 threads that are vaguely complaining about bugs...that dosent sound to bad to me. Then, the bulk of these posts are people discussing weather the given post is appropate or not. I counted, and all told there are about 8 people that say they have an issue right at this moment, and that is being generous. Also, none of these have anything to do with lag, but 2 related login bugs. I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but what ever it is, it effects a very small part of the population.

I am taking the fact that you ignored the rest of my post as declining my offer...sounds like you have more faith in RB than I gave you credit for.

Next time I am on and things are hopping, I will grab a screenshot if I can, then you can accuse me of Photoshoping it and we can finally secure that delusional troll award for ya!

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