WAR will blow WoW away in my opinion. It will be more new, and more stuff to do since most people know all they have to know about WoW if you've been playing it for a few years. I've been playing WoW for a good while now and so the old stuff gets boring easily, I love moving onto new and exciting games that look worthwhile and I think this will be the next game I will be addicted too.
I would bet that Warhammer Online will be better than WoW in almost every way.
Warhammer has been around since...1983? 82? somthing like that......has a LOT of books written on it and it's world and it's everything....much much more depth to W.A.R than WoW will ever have.
Originally posted by cerb123 Warcrafts lore was based off warhammers lore.... basicly if you read warhammer lore and then warcraft lore its almost the same with different names and the warcraft lore is more bare bones than warhammer.
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Yeah, if you remember..Warhammer was heavily influenced by LotR, and it took a few years before the races and figures started growing into their own and becoming unique. Really, everything is based on something else..there's nothing new over the sun.
Originally posted by Volkmar Originally posted by cerb123 Warcrafts lore was based off warhammers lore.... basicly if you read warhammer lore and then warcraft lore its almost the same with different names and the warcraft lore is more bare bones than warhammer.
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
When people say taken from, they don't mean word for word. Great works of literature and art have influenced others peoples work for years. Tolkien's books was,is said to be the greatest of all time, other author's drew on his general idea's to create thier own fantasy worlds with it's own inhabitants. But when people say war has copied wow. One should remember that wow came after, WAR,DandD, and LotR. And probally some older books I cannot think of. You could thing of warcraft as the youngest sibling of the group.
Originally posted by barmakun68 WoW with better PvP and "worse" PvE is a good thing in my opinion. If by "worse" you mean "Don't have to be 40 people playing in a boring dungeon all night every night of the week and still not reach the best equipment".
I agree with barmakun on the PVE cause i quit playing WOW because I had a 60 for 3 or 4 months and barely had any epics due to because the instances all took 2 or 3 days to clear out, if you had a good guild.
But the only reason Im interested in WAR is because of the PVP, and Im hoping that the PVP in WAR is a lot different than the PVP in WOW. Because all WOW PVP is is a grind. You dont get to High Warlord by skill, you get to High Warlord by putting in 10 hours of PVP a day. I would just want to see a game with PVP ranks that are based on skill and not by time put in, and im gonna be pretty disappointed if WAR turns our like WOW.
Originally posted by Volkmar Originally posted by cerb123 Warcrafts lore was based off warhammers lore.... basicly if you read warhammer lore and then warcraft lore its almost the same with different names and the warcraft lore is more bare bones than warhammer.
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
Let's play a game. It's called, Which World Am I Talking About?
Infinitely powerful beings travel through an alternate dimension of energy and magic, reaching a young world. These beings set up a portal(s) to this alternate Magic Realm and draw off its energies to weave spells and change the world. They raise the world's races from barbarism, teaching them art, magic, and making a few mistakes in the process. Unfortunately, it turns out daemonic beings live in this Magic Realm and they invade the world through the portal(s), throwing down these Creator Beings.
After an extended period of daemonic/demonic invasion, the elves manage to fight off the demon/daemon hordes by sealing/draining the portal(s).
The elves go through a great civil war that ends in the Sundering.
Daemons/demons from the Magic Realm attempt to conquer the world time and time again, using corrupted agents, outright assault, and all manner of tactics.
A great Necromancer creates a plague that destroys an entire nation. The dead are then raised as his army, but rebel against him.
Originally posted by Volkmar you are talking about warhammer. what was your point again?
You're not familiar with the write-up of Warcraft on the WoW website, then? Every single one of those descriptions is a valid summary of various sections on that site.
Taking inspiration is one thing, but it takes willful ignorance to claim Warcraft isn't anything but utterly derivative.
Originally posted by Morskittar Originally posted by Volkmar you are talking about warhammer. what was your point again?
You're not familiar with the write-up of Warcraft on the WoW website, then? Every single one of those descriptions is a valid summary of various sections on that site.
Taking inspiration is one thing, but it takes willful ignorance to claim Warcraft isn't anything but utterly derivative.
not really....
In Warcraft the infinite energy beings do not live on Azeroth, they simple make it, put the dragons as guardian AND LEAVE. Nobody teaches the natives anything.
There is no rebellion, Sargeras go crazy. it is more akin biblical lucifer than Warhammer.
and so on. Really, maybe from afar they might look similar, after all both have humans and orcs, but if you look the details and things more accurately you will realize it is not so.
Dragons in warhammer have nothing to do with warcraft nor are there dragon ogres in azeroth either. No Chaos Dwarfs either. Humans even are different, Warhammer ones are Holy Roman German Empire guys, with gunpowder and stuff, warcraft humans are much less advanced, with no cannons or strange contraptions, a more idealized middle ages chivalry if you like, with even a all-good church as the Light, void of the power-hungryness and temporal powers that the christian church had in middle ages time.
If we want to look at it, i could tell you that GW didn't invent anything either. they just copied history/various sources and changed names.
Empire= Holy Roman German Empire
Bretonnia= France plus Camelot legends (with even same names like "green knight") plus Robin hood legends (Leoncoeur? Lionheart).
High Elve and Dark Elvess= Morcock's Melniboeans. they even have dragon riders and are in decline. the dark elves represent the cruel side of those melniboeans.
Lizard men= Aztecs. From decorations to belief.
And so on. Do i think Warhammer is a blasphemous copy? Nope. Even if they took heavy inspiration from historical legends, they made a living world out of it. Same thing for Warcraft. The basic idea might have come from GW warhammer for sure, but so many details and things are different nowadays that you can't really say they are the same.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
why do people care where the "lore" came from anyways? why is the arguement for WAR not looking like WoW is, warhammer came first? its not like its important, to the actual game design.. i have always seen the warhammer lore as a complete mess with lots and lots of different battles, taking place in different areas.. (sorry if i actually missed the whole concept of Warhammer, thats just how i see it)
while in warcraft you get the whole story told through a computergame with a very forward line of history.
this is where I see it as a very important point: a straight line of history(like WoW) doesnt make for a good MMO because you cant include the lore points, because they are VERY important, and cant be changed.
where in Warhammer you get the not so important battles all over the places, every single day. which makes for a great MMO + its very PvP centric, so its even better
Volkmar, my only knowledge of Warcraft is the WoW website, WC III, and WoW itself. Perhaps I'm interpreting things incorrectly, but:
Infinitely powerful beings travel through an alternate dimension of energy and magic, reaching a young world. These beings set up a portal(s) to this alternate Magic Realm and draw off its energies to weave spells and change the world. They raise the world's races from barbarism, teaching them art, magic, and making a few mistakes in the process. Unfortunately, it turns out daemonic beings live in this Magic Realm and they invade the world through the portal(s), throwing down these Creator Beings.
From the WoW site: "Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth... The Titans empowered a number of races to help them fashion the world... However, before they departed, they charged the greatest species of the world with the task of watching over Kalimdor, lest any force should threaten its perfect tranquility."
I've always thought Warhammer's pseudo-sci-fi origin story was somewhat unique, a nice take on mythological creation stories. Warcraft's seems almost verbatim to me, in basic structure, if not specifics.
After an extended period of daemonic/demonic invasion, the elves manage to fight off the demon/daemon hordes by sealing/draining the portal(s).
The elves go through a great civil war that ends in the Sundering.
WoW site: "The warrior-demons of the Burning Legion stormed into the world through the Well of Eternity and laid siege to the night elves' sleeping cities.
The ensuing battle between Malfurion and Azshara threw the Highborne's carefully crafted spellwork into chaos. The unstable vortex within the Well's depths exploded and ignited a catastrophic chain of events that would sunder the world forever. "
It's a combination of two Warhammer events, but the basic framework is there and completely unchanged. Daemons invade> daemons fight the elves> the elves shut out the daemon hordes from their sources of power.
Daemons/demons from the Magic Realm attempt to conquer the world time and time again, using corrupted agents, outright assault, and all manner of tactics.
This, I'll concede, is probably general enough that it could apply to just about any fantasy story/world.
A great Necromancer creates a plague that destroys an entire nation. The dead are then raised as his army, but rebel against him.
Perhaps I misunderstood what was happening in Warcraft III, but this seems to describe it pretty well. Take out the names and cultural styles, and the creation of the Forsaken and Tomb Kings are nearly identical.
So, yeah, I agree. Warhammer is derivative. It always has been. But it's done in a hugely different fashion. GW has always taken cool historical and fantasy literature elements and made them into a game. Want to use your Napoleonic gunline versus Moorcock/Lovecraft Chaos Entities? Warhammer allows for that. Dig Martin Luther and the Catholic Reformation in the 16th century? Warhammer sets that up in a sandbox game world. It takes all the cool stuff you'd want to play games with, and puts them in game world that ties them all together. Nothing is arbitrary; it would be a mirror of our own history if it weren't for a few elements. It's thematic: Law versus Chaos, Civilization versus Barbarism.
So yeah, it's derivative, but in the best way. It creates something that didn't exist before; a commercial world to set games in that contains a wide variety of historical and literature references.
Warcraft, on the other hand, is redundant. It doesn't draw from those earlier sources that don't have games. It draws from other games; from Warhammer, from D&D. If it had been created as a tabletop game, it wouldn't have survived. If GW had brought the Warhammer license to Blizzard or someone first, Warcraft would never have had a reason to exist in the first place. It offers nothing that earlier properties don't already offer in spades; except for Blizzard's polished gameplay. Whereas various D&D settings, Warhammer, and a few other game-related properties can stand on their own, Warcraft has nothing without the gameplay.
One caveat: Warhammer couldn't have stood on its own for the first decade or so as well, it wasn't until 3rd edition/WFRP/Realms of Chaos in '87 that it truly took shape as something more than the earlier sum of its parts.
I don't think in any way Warcraft is even close to that point, especially with the current 70's comic book/Spelljammer-like revisions. While it may have had a chance to move beyond it's Facsimile-of-Warhammer roots, Blizzard hasn't taken it to that point. Warcraft is as McDonalds to Warhammer's nuanced and well-aged steak. It's fast food.
look, if you generalize stuff enough, you can place basically anystory in the concept "nice world created by God(s) that get invaded by evil beings, heroes save the day".
And Warcraft inspirations from various sources is very clear. There is also no doubt in the fact that Warhammer lore is more thought out, seeing their roots (Tabletop and pen and paper against videogames) and the timespan (25 years vs 13), but from here to arrive at the point to take one derivative fantasy setting and proclaim it the Emperor of the cosmos while another derivative fantasy setting is thrown in the dust as "rendundant"... it seems a bit of an exageration to me. If that would be true, it means you despise most fantasy novels/setting created after the 90s.
There ARE things that Warcraft does that nobody did before. The Trolls as depicted in Warcraft, for example, are kinda unique. Usually trolls are nothing more than baby-eaters monsters that may or may not regenerate or transform to stone in sunlight.
Minotaurs with native-americans culture? seems quite nice to me, so why it is that joining late renaissance germany with Morckock-like chaos gods (another derivation) is ok, but uniting a typical brutish monster (the troll and the minotaur) and give them an actual culture, derived from real life ones, is bad?
Goblins. Usually goblins are seen as low-level guys with nothing in their life as a goal but dying or serving as slaves for the mightier orcs. Warcraft united the goblins physical aspects with a robber baron mentality and a genius in inventions, creating a sort of crafty fantasy ferengi that were never seen before.
to your specific points.
Warhammer is sci-fi in creation, Warcraft is NOT. the Titans are more akin to greek gods than spacefaring aliens like the warhammer Old Ones are. And what fantasy setting you know that wasn't made by energy omnipotent beings?
as you notice, those emporewed races who knows who they are, the night elves weren't for sure, they evolved later affected by the magic Well.
There is no mention of a civil war either. So Warcraft is like: a group of planet-making gods arrive, look that the planet is nice, seed life, change stuff and then leave with the dragons as guardians.
Warhammer is like: a race of technologically evolved aliens land on the world, start making experiments with magic and genetics, create a number of races that uses as slaves or who knows what. their experiments go awry, the slaves revolt and they get wiped out.
And you tell me they are the same??
Second point: the demons were SUMMONED by the Highborne of Azshara. they didt just wander there by chance. The elves of warcraft were not arcane magic users like the high elves were, they were naturalistic, the civil war is there, yes, and so is the sundering, but the other side do not become a dark and depravated splinter, but get imprisoned underwater and then transformed into nagas.
Third point: In warcraft they invaded twice. once using the orcs, second using the lich king. The Chaos never, to my knowledge, made extensive uses of either greenskins nor undead. Undead they are actually kinda of rivals and the greenskins do whatever they please. same concept? yes, what fantasy world do not have demonic invasions time to time, but totally different mechanics. even the demos themselves have nothing to do in nature. Warcraft demons, the burning legions, are the races nurtured by Sargeras, one titan. Warhammer demons are manifestations of chaotic entities that are profoundly different, and clashing, with each other.
Sargeras want total destruction, the chaos gods wants total transformation.
Fourth point: mostly correct, with the small problem that the "necromancer" is a puppet of the Burning legion and HE himself rebel against the demons and only much later, after he exterminates the high elves, does some undead, thanks to more demonic help and the powers of the high elves undead leader, manage to become forsaken. Warhammer Nagash has little to do with the chaos gods, he is a third force, warcraft one is intrinsically linked with the burning legion, being a creation of them.
Then of course, nagash never fused with a human renegade or any of that stuff. He fights with ratmen instead that are not even present in Warcraft at all .
Would warcraft have survived as a tabletop? it is a bad question. because it would have had a different, more complete, lore if it would have been a book. it wasn't. it was a RTS. One with an heck of a story.
Then the lore evolved over time as more games got released but it frankly puzzles me how something that is "great" for videogames as much as lore and background goes, is "terrible" for Tabletop.
I do not pretend to say warcraft lore is stellar, no, but it can stand on his feet, that i believe. (after all now there IS a warcraft RPG, that was published even before WoW came out by White Wolf themselves)
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Originally posted by Distortion0 Morskitter, that was great! Are you planning on playing WAR? If so, what race?
Glad you enjoyed it. I'll probably be playing a bit of everything, but my guild is going Destruction to start with. Dunno what race I'll be playing yet. I'm anticipating a horrible case of altitis.
Volkmar, I think we could go back and forth with this debate forever; neither of us will be convinced. I see the meta-story connections: Warp/Twisting Nether, Titans/Old Ones, and all that, while you're comparing the micro-details, which vary. Both are valid comparisons, but my critera for a good story isn't in the details, it's in the theme and the presentation, the entire scope of a story. Warcraft fails miserably at my criteria, but in the end, I have to admit that some people like burgers better than steak and that's a valid choice.
There are differences, yes. But I see more parallels between Warhammer and Warcraft than between any other gaming fantasy worlds out there. Even Warhammer's closest predecessor, Moorcock's Eternal Champion universe, is quite a bit more different than its offspring. Putting the incredibly similar visuals aside, Warhammer and Warcraft often appear to be takes on the same basic premise; a fantasy world beset by forces from beyond time and space but formed of their own flaws, framed by the tragedy of internal conflict. How many other gaming properties mimic that? No D&D setting. No other videogame. So yeah, the tweaks in names and races (many of which are, I agree, unique to Warcraft) are more gimmick than change to the very foundation of the game world.
I would have much more respect for Blizzard if they had taken the Warhammer template and fundamentally changed it from the start. Eliminate the Twisting Nether. Create a different source for the World Destroying Evil. The evil Elemental twist is kinda cool... why not go with that? They did nothing, however, to change the fundamental overall theme of the story.
That was something that existed, previously, only in novels and classic stories. Warhammer took those ideas and storylines and put them in a game world. In a world fans could share in, and play around with. Warcraft did the exact same thing without changing the formula. There's inspiration, then there's imitation. The roots of Warcraft are purely imitation, even if the modern expression is throwing on details to try to shift that.
yes, let's it rest, I agree with you we could go on forever and it would lose the fun after a while .
After all let's not forget that Warcraft lore is kinda pretty new. Before warcraft III, all this stuff was non-existant, it was just orcs and humans kicking each other ass with the help of elves and trolls.
As said, i keep Warhammer lore superior to warcraft for obvious reasons, so it is not that i dislike it or other.
No hard feelings i hope.
have a nice day.
Volkmar
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Originally posted by Volkmar yes, let's it rest, I agree with you we could go on forever and it would lose the fun after a while . After all let's not forget that Warcraft lore is kinda pretty new. Before warcraft III, all this stuff was non-existant, it was just orcs and humans kicking each other ass with the help of elves and trolls. As said, i keep Warhammer lore superior to warcraft for obvious reasons, so it is not that i dislike it or other. No hard feelings i hope. have a nice day. Volkmar
No hard feelings in the least! Just a couple of crochety old gamers harping on the minutae we so love.
I hear all this crap about how WAR is taking this and that from WoW and how it's not right. Pure bs imo, who created and started massive MMO pvp in the first place? That's right...Mythic. And who integrated pvp into their MMO? That's right...Blizzard. Shit, even Warhammers tabletop history goes back a few years even before the first Warcraft game released. So when it comes down to it, the finger pointing needs to stop and let the company do whatever it takes to make it the best MMO out there when it releases imo.
Originally posted by Parnassus I wouldn't blame Mythic for trying to attract some of the WoW players or stealing some of the things they think that WoW did well.
Originally posted by Nierro Originally posted by Parnassus I wouldn't blame Mythic for trying to attract some of the WoW players or stealing some of the things they think that WoW did well.
When did WoW do something good?
IMO, WoW's simplicity kinda laid a foundation for MMOs. It took a piece of each MMO out there and put it together with spit and glue. That way, there are people that enjoy certain aspects of the game from others. Personally, I enjoy leveling in the game. Gives me something to shoot for. But come end game when you have to make weekly plans around the game, it got tiresome; almost like a job. Henceforth, I have 4 60s and none that are what I would consider "equipped".
Originally posted by thexegg37 guys lets face it Every MMO RPG can relate to WoW because lets face it WoW basicaly has stolen from every MMORPG and just RPG befor it
Technically, every game has taken something from another game. Thats like saying GM cars are so superior because they stole technology and ideas from Ford. Both WoW and WAR are MMOs so of course there is going to be similarities. What matters is how the developers get the player involved and hooked.
IMHO, my only experiences with MMOs are Lineage ][ (I got hacked and lost a 62 Silver Ranger) and WoW. Both were great games in different areas. To find a game that tailors to all areas that I enjoy may never happen. I'm sure there will be something I dislike about WAR when it releases. I've been playing WoW since release and its getting to me. I need a change. Like any other MMO, WoW had its time and should remain a top MMO for at least a couple more years. I'm sure WAR shall be as successful of an MMO and will too fall to another MMO in the years to come. Just my two coppers.
________________________ Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
i find this viewpoint fantasticly ironic, considering WoW is using space pirates and crashed interstellar fortresses in their lore now...
anywho, if you read up on the interviews, youll discover that every zone has RvR content, some PvE and some PvP, every zone has PvP and PvE areas, but your regardless, still fighting for your faction. i think the lore, the pvp and pve will be superior than WoW. after all, they dont plan to make endgame PvE raid instances.. a perfect example of BAD (and WoW) PvE
Originally posted by Aseenus My thoughts are...
WAR will be same as wow but with a dodgy lore, better pvp and worse pve
Comments
WAR will blow WoW away in my opinion. It will be more new, and more stuff to do since most people know all they have to know about WoW if you've been playing it for a few years. I've been playing WoW for a good while now and so the old stuff gets boring easily, I love moving onto new and exciting games that look worthwhile and I think this will be the next game I will be addicted too.
WoW move over, WAR come to daddy!
Warhammer has been around since...1983? 82? somthing like that......has a LOT of books written on it and it's world and it's everything....much much more depth to W.A.R than WoW will ever have.
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
When people say taken from, they don't mean word for word. Great works of literature and art have influenced others peoples work for years. Tolkien's books was,is said to be the greatest of all time, other author's drew on his general idea's to create thier own fantasy worlds with it's own inhabitants. But when people say war has copied wow. One should remember that wow came after, WAR,DandD, and LotR. And probally some older books I cannot think of. You could thing of warcraft as the youngest sibling of the group.
I agree with barmakun on the PVE cause i quit playing WOW because I had a 60 for 3 or 4 months and barely had any epics due to because the instances all took 2 or 3 days to clear out, if you had a good guild.
But the only reason Im interested in WAR is because of the PVP, and Im hoping that the PVP in WAR is a lot different than the PVP in WOW. Because all WOW PVP is is a grind. You dont get to High Warlord by skill, you get to High Warlord by putting in 10 hours of PVP a day. I would just want to see a game with PVP ranks that are based on skill and not by time put in, and im gonna be pretty disappointed if WAR turns our like WOW.
I beg to differ.
Didn't see any magic-crazy elves transforming in snake underwater beings in warhammer. Nor did i see such crazy slavers as dark elves in Warcraft.
Orcs are honorful and wise in warcraft, they are savage and bloodthirsty (mushrooms) in warhammer.
Trolls? not a chance. Tauren? warhammer minotaurs are nothing like taurens.
So, bottom line? the two lore might have started as similar about 10 years ago but nowaday they aren't that similar.
Let's play a game. It's called, Which World Am I Talking About?
Infinitely powerful beings travel through an alternate
dimension of energy and magic, reaching a young world. These beings
set up a portal(s) to this alternate Magic Realm and draw off its
energies to weave spells and change the world. They raise the world's
races from barbarism, teaching them art, magic, and making a few
mistakes in the process. Unfortunately, it turns out daemonic beings
live in this Magic Realm and they invade the world through the
portal(s), throwing down these Creator Beings.
After an extended period of daemonic/demonic invasion, the elves
manage to fight off the demon/daemon hordes by sealing/draining the
portal(s).
The elves go through a great civil war that ends in the Sundering.
Daemons/demons from the Magic Realm attempt to conquer the world
time and time again, using corrupted agents, outright assault, and all
manner of tactics.
A great Necromancer creates a plague that destroys an entire
nation. The dead are then raised as his army, but rebel against
him.
Can you guess?
you are talking about warhammer.
what was your point again?
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Taking inspiration is one thing, but it takes willful ignorance to claim Warcraft isn't anything but utterly derivative.
Warhammer online looks suxxy, Doesent seem like anything new.
But i stick 2 WAR, its less suxy CURRENTLY then Mongols Of Suxcraft.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Taking inspiration is one thing, but it takes willful ignorance to claim Warcraft isn't anything but utterly derivative.
not really....
In Warcraft the infinite energy beings do not live on Azeroth, they simple make it, put the dragons as guardian AND LEAVE. Nobody teaches the natives anything.
There is no rebellion, Sargeras go crazy. it is more akin biblical lucifer than Warhammer.
and so on. Really, maybe from afar they might look similar, after all both have humans and orcs, but if you look the details and things more accurately you will realize it is not so.
Dragons in warhammer have nothing to do with warcraft nor are there dragon ogres in azeroth either. No Chaos Dwarfs either. Humans even are different, Warhammer ones are Holy Roman German Empire guys, with gunpowder and stuff, warcraft humans are much less advanced, with no cannons or strange contraptions, a more idealized middle ages chivalry if you like, with even a all-good church as the Light, void of the power-hungryness and temporal powers that the christian church had in middle ages time.
If we want to look at it, i could tell you that GW didn't invent anything either. they just copied history/various sources and changed names.
Empire= Holy Roman German Empire
Bretonnia= France plus Camelot legends (with even same names like "green knight") plus Robin hood legends (Leoncoeur? Lionheart).
High Elve and Dark Elvess= Morcock's Melniboeans. they even have dragon riders and are in decline. the dark elves represent the cruel side of those melniboeans.
Lizard men= Aztecs. From decorations to belief.
And so on. Do i think Warhammer is a blasphemous copy? Nope. Even if they took heavy inspiration from historical legends, they made a living world out of it. Same thing for Warcraft. The basic idea might have come from GW warhammer for sure, but so many details and things are different nowadays that you can't really say they are the same.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
why do people care where the "lore" came from anyways?
why is the arguement for WAR not looking like WoW is, warhammer came first? its not like its important, to the actual game design..
i have always seen the warhammer lore as a complete mess with lots and lots of different battles, taking place in different areas.. (sorry if i actually missed the whole concept of Warhammer, thats just how i see it)
while in warcraft you get the whole story told through a computergame with a very forward line of history.
this is where I see it as a very important point: a straight line of history(like WoW) doesnt make for a good MMO because you cant include the lore points, because they are VERY important, and cant be changed.
where in Warhammer you get the not so important battles all over the places, every single day. which makes for a great MMO + its very PvP centric, so its even better
Volkmar, my only knowledge of Warcraft is the WoW website, WC III, and WoW itself. Perhaps I'm interpreting things incorrectly, but:
Infinitely powerful beings travel through an alternate
dimension of energy and magic, reaching a young world. These beings
set up a portal(s) to this alternate Magic Realm and draw off its
energies to weave spells and change the world. They raise the world's
races from barbarism, teaching them art, magic, and making a few
mistakes in the process. Unfortunately, it turns out daemonic beings
live in this Magic Realm and they invade the world through the
portal(s), throwing down these Creator Beings.
From the WoW site: "Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans
continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet
as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world
that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth... The Titans empowered a number of races to help them fashion the world... However, before they departed, they charged the greatest species of the world with the task of watching over Kalimdor, lest any force should threaten its perfect tranquility."
I've always thought Warhammer's pseudo-sci-fi origin story was somewhat unique, a nice take on mythological creation stories. Warcraft's seems almost verbatim to me, in basic structure, if not specifics.
After an extended period of daemonic/demonic invasion, the elves
manage to fight off the demon/daemon hordes by sealing/draining the
portal(s).
The elves go through a great civil war that ends in the Sundering.
WoW site: "The warrior-demons of the Burning Legion stormed into the world through the Well of Eternity and laid siege to the night elves' sleeping cities.
The ensuing battle between Malfurion and Azshara threw the Highborne's carefully crafted spellwork into chaos. The unstable vortex within the Well's depths exploded and ignited a catastrophic chain of events that would sunder the world forever. "
It's a combination of two Warhammer events, but the basic framework is there and completely unchanged. Daemons invade> daemons fight the elves> the elves shut out the daemon hordes from their sources of power.
Daemons/demons from the Magic Realm attempt to conquer the world
time and time again, using corrupted agents, outright assault, and all
manner of tactics.
This, I'll concede, is probably general enough that it could apply to just about any fantasy story/world.
A great Necromancer creates a plague that destroys an entire
nation. The dead are then raised as his army, but rebel against
him.
Perhaps I misunderstood what was happening in Warcraft III, but this seems to describe it pretty well. Take out the names and cultural styles, and the creation of the Forsaken and Tomb Kings are nearly identical.
So, yeah, I agree. Warhammer is derivative. It always has been. But it's done in a hugely different fashion. GW has always taken cool historical and fantasy literature elements and made them into a game. Want to use your Napoleonic gunline versus Moorcock/Lovecraft Chaos Entities? Warhammer allows for that. Dig Martin Luther and the Catholic Reformation in the 16th century? Warhammer sets that up in a sandbox game world. It takes all the cool stuff you'd want to play games with, and puts them in game world that ties them all together. Nothing is arbitrary; it would be a mirror of our own history if it weren't for a few elements. It's thematic: Law versus Chaos, Civilization versus Barbarism.
So yeah, it's derivative, but in the best way. It creates something that didn't exist before; a commercial world to set games in that contains a wide variety of historical and literature references.
Warcraft, on the other hand, is redundant. It doesn't draw from those earlier sources that don't have games. It draws from other games; from Warhammer, from D&D. If it had been created as a tabletop game, it wouldn't have survived. If GW had brought the Warhammer license to Blizzard or someone first, Warcraft would never have had a reason to exist in the first place. It offers nothing that earlier properties don't already offer in spades; except for Blizzard's polished gameplay. Whereas various D&D settings, Warhammer, and a few other game-related properties can stand on their own, Warcraft has nothing without the gameplay.
One caveat: Warhammer couldn't have stood on its own for the first decade or so as well, it wasn't until 3rd edition/WFRP/Realms of Chaos in '87 that it truly took shape as something more than the earlier sum of its parts.
I don't think in any way Warcraft is even close to that point, especially with the current 70's comic book/Spelljammer-like revisions. While it may have had a chance to move beyond it's Facsimile-of-Warhammer roots, Blizzard hasn't taken it to that point. Warcraft is as McDonalds to Warhammer's nuanced and well-aged steak. It's fast food.
look, if you generalize stuff enough, you can place basically anystory in the concept "nice world created by God(s) that get invaded by evil beings, heroes save the day".
And Warcraft inspirations from various sources is very clear. There is also no doubt in the fact that Warhammer lore is more thought out, seeing their roots (Tabletop and pen and paper against videogames) and the timespan (25 years vs 13), but from here to arrive at the point to take one derivative fantasy setting and proclaim it the Emperor of the cosmos while another derivative fantasy setting is thrown in the dust as "rendundant"... it seems a bit of an exageration to me. If that would be true, it means you despise most fantasy novels/setting created after the 90s.
There ARE things that Warcraft does that nobody did before. The Trolls as depicted in Warcraft, for example, are kinda unique. Usually trolls are nothing more than baby-eaters monsters that may or may not regenerate or transform to stone in sunlight.
Minotaurs with native-americans culture? seems quite nice to me, so why it is that joining late renaissance germany with Morckock-like chaos gods (another derivation) is ok, but uniting a typical brutish monster (the troll and the minotaur) and give them an actual culture, derived from real life ones, is bad?
Goblins. Usually goblins are seen as low-level guys with nothing in their life as a goal but dying or serving as slaves for the mightier orcs. Warcraft united the goblins physical aspects with a robber baron mentality and a genius in inventions, creating a sort of crafty fantasy ferengi that were never seen before.
to your specific points.
Warhammer is sci-fi in creation, Warcraft is NOT. the Titans are more akin to greek gods than spacefaring aliens like the warhammer Old Ones are. And what fantasy setting you know that wasn't made by energy omnipotent beings?
as you notice, those emporewed races who knows who they are, the night elves weren't for sure, they evolved later affected by the magic Well.
There is no mention of a civil war either. So Warcraft is like: a group of planet-making gods arrive, look that the planet is nice, seed life, change stuff and then leave with the dragons as guardians.
Warhammer is like: a race of technologically evolved aliens land on the world, start making experiments with magic and genetics, create a number of races that uses as slaves or who knows what. their experiments go awry, the slaves revolt and they get wiped out.
And you tell me they are the same??
Second point: the demons were SUMMONED by the Highborne of Azshara. they didt just wander there by chance. The elves of warcraft were not arcane magic users like the high elves were, they were naturalistic, the civil war is there, yes, and so is the sundering, but the other side do not become a dark and depravated splinter, but get imprisoned underwater and then transformed into nagas.
Third point: In warcraft they invaded twice. once using the orcs, second using the lich king. The Chaos never, to my knowledge, made extensive uses of either greenskins nor undead. Undead they are actually kinda of rivals and the greenskins do whatever they please. same concept? yes, what fantasy world do not have demonic invasions time to time, but totally different mechanics. even the demos themselves have nothing to do in nature. Warcraft demons, the burning legions, are the races nurtured by Sargeras, one titan. Warhammer demons are manifestations of chaotic entities that are profoundly different, and clashing, with each other.
Sargeras want total destruction, the chaos gods wants total transformation.
Fourth point: mostly correct, with the small problem that the "necromancer" is a puppet of the Burning legion and HE himself rebel against the demons and only much later, after he exterminates the high elves, does some undead, thanks to more demonic help and the powers of the high elves undead leader, manage to become forsaken. Warhammer Nagash has little to do with the chaos gods, he is a third force, warcraft one is intrinsically linked with the burning legion, being a creation of them.
Then of course, nagash never fused with a human renegade or any of that stuff. He fights with ratmen instead that are not even present in Warcraft at all
.
Would warcraft have survived as a tabletop? it is a bad question. because it would have had a different, more complete, lore if it would have been a book. it wasn't. it was a RTS. One with an heck of a story.
Then the lore evolved over time as more games got released but it frankly puzzles me how something that is "great" for videogames as much as lore and background goes, is "terrible" for Tabletop.
I do not pretend to say warcraft lore is stellar, no, but it can stand on his feet, that i believe. (after all now there IS a warcraft RPG, that was published even before WoW came out by White Wolf themselves)
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
my guild is going Destruction to start with. Dunno what race I'll be
playing yet. I'm anticipating a horrible case of altitis.
Volkmar, I think we could go back and forth with this debate forever;
neither of us will be convinced. I see the meta-story connections:
Warp/Twisting Nether, Titans/Old Ones, and all that, while you're
comparing the micro-details, which vary. Both are valid comparisons,
but my critera for a good story isn't in the details, it's in the theme
and the presentation, the entire scope of a story. Warcraft fails
miserably at my criteria, but in the end, I have to admit that some
people like burgers better than steak and that's a valid choice.
There are differences, yes. But I see more parallels between Warhammer and Warcraft than between any other gaming fantasy worlds out there. Even Warhammer's closest predecessor, Moorcock's Eternal Champion universe, is quite a bit more different than its offspring. Putting the incredibly similar visuals aside, Warhammer and Warcraft often appear to be takes on the same basic premise; a fantasy world beset by forces from beyond time and space but formed of their own flaws, framed by the tragedy of internal conflict. How many other gaming properties mimic that? No D&D setting. No other videogame. So yeah, the tweaks in names and races (many of which are, I agree, unique to Warcraft) are more gimmick than change to the very foundation of the game world.
I would have much more respect for Blizzard if they had taken the Warhammer template and fundamentally changed it from the start. Eliminate the Twisting Nether. Create a different source for the World Destroying Evil. The evil Elemental twist is kinda cool... why not go with that? They did nothing, however, to change the fundamental overall theme of the story.
That was something that existed, previously, only in novels and classic stories. Warhammer took those ideas and storylines and put them in a game world. In a world fans could share in, and play around with. Warcraft did the exact same thing without changing the formula. There's inspiration, then there's imitation. The roots of Warcraft are purely imitation, even if the modern expression is throwing on details to try to shift that.
yes, let's it rest, I agree with you we could go on forever and it would lose the fun after a while
.
After all let's not forget that Warcraft lore is kinda pretty new. Before warcraft III, all this stuff was non-existant, it was just orcs and humans kicking each other ass with the help of elves and trolls.
As said, i keep Warhammer lore superior to warcraft for obvious reasons, so it is not that i dislike it or other.
No hard feelings i hope.
have a nice day.
Volkmar
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I hear all this crap about how WAR is taking this and that from WoW and how it's not right. Pure bs imo, who created and started massive MMO pvp in the first place? That's right...Mythic. And who integrated pvp into their MMO? That's right...Blizzard. Shit, even Warhammers tabletop history goes back a few years even before the first Warcraft game released. So when it comes down to it, the finger pointing needs to stop and let the company do whatever it takes to make it the best MMO out there when it releases imo.
All these X vs. Y threads are just stupid.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Have you seen my stapler?
IMO, WoW's simplicity kinda laid a foundation for MMOs. It took a piece of each MMO out there and put it together with spit and glue. That way, there are people that enjoy certain aspects of the game from others. Personally, I enjoy leveling in the game. Gives me something to shoot for. But come end game when you have to make weekly plans around the game, it got tiresome; almost like a job. Henceforth, I have 4 60s and none that are what I would consider "equipped".
Originally posted by thexegg37
guys lets face it Every MMO RPG can relate to WoW because lets face it WoW basicaly has stolen from every MMORPG and just RPG befor it
Technically, every game has taken something from another game. Thats like saying GM cars are so superior because they stole technology and ideas from Ford. Both WoW and WAR are MMOs so of course there is going to be similarities. What matters is how the developers get the player involved and hooked.
IMHO, my only experiences with MMOs are Lineage ][ (I got hacked and lost a 62 Silver Ranger) and WoW. Both were great games in different areas. To find a game that tailors to all areas that I enjoy may never happen. I'm sure there will be something I dislike about WAR when it releases. I've been playing WoW since release and its getting to me. I need a change. Like any other MMO, WoW had its time and should remain a top MMO for at least a couple more years. I'm sure WAR shall be as successful of an MMO and will too fall to another MMO in the years to come. Just my two coppers.
________________________
Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."