Originally posted by baff My theory is that it is neither genetic or an accident you suffered in the womb. What's yours?
Are you referring that to me?
I told you, I never chose to be this way. I don't know how it happened. I just know it did. And I have tried to the point where I put myself in a deep depression to change. I have had girlfriend after girlfriend. But, no love there, no sexual attraction.
I have been disowned by my family for who I am. I have been beat up to the point that I almost died. And I have put myself through torture by putting myself down.
But it was all pointless. God made me this way. And I accept myself now.
I've also found a good group of friends and a church that accepts me for who I am. I've got my community, my partner, and my faith. I still wish I could visit my family, but I'm the happiest I've been in my whole life.
Due to my violent disdain to homosexuality I have to keep my personal thoughts to myself. What I can say though is that fear is bad. People often mistake fear for caution though. I think many people who are cautious of homosexuality have literal and ethic diffrences. Whatever the case itll be worked out in the long run. If you believe in god, gods or no god. Religon, spirituality or abadon. It all leads to the same end. Progress. Grow, i bless all of you who make progress. Whether that is to a world of order and ethics based on christanity, aethism, hatred or emptiness. In the end it all just works.
Upallnight, to you I would say that "why" you are gay is because that's the way your brain works.
Obviously gay isn't a natural state for the human body, because the natural state is to reproduce.
A gay man is attracted to men because the wires that say "be attracted to women" were switched. It's a psychological condition. That's not to say it's bad or good. What it means is that your brain tells you to be attracted to the same sex. It's just the same as someone who likes to eat glue, or someone who likes smelling feet, or someone who likes starting fires.
Some people are born with these wires switched (and actually, some people are born with the wires set up for a girls body, but get the parts for a boys body, which explains gender identity disorder like one of the other posters said about his friend who claimed he always felt like he was a girl), and some people have these wires switched during their life for whatever reason. I think some people can have their brain put back to 'normal' but that's not to say homosexuality is something that necessarily needs to be 'cured'.
Think of it like the Mutants in Xmen. Some of the mutants like being mutants, and like the lifestyle. Some of the other mutants hate what they've turned into. Perhaps being a mutant can be cured, but why cure it if you're happy with it? That being said, alot of regular humans fear mutants because it represents something different from the natural order, and people don't like it when their way of life is potentially threatened with change.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
While I'm sure it is possible to do all these things and be gay, it is more possible to do them and be straight. As long as this is my belief, and it is, I shall always endeavour to pass on the benefits of my experience to my children. It would be immoral not to.
First, I dont' think there's any way to conclusively say it's 'more possible' to produce well adjusted children when you're straight ... what, straight couples don't produce screwed-up kids? By the millions? Yarite.
Second, you can endeavour all you want about role modeling, but you should be prepared to deal with your kids' making sexuality choices you don't agree with ... it happened to Dick Cheney, it could happen to you.
I have no conclusion on whether it's 'genetic' or 'environmental', but then that has nothing to do with 'choice', you don't choose your childhood environment any more than you choose your genes. I never made a choice to find many varities of women attractive and all men completely uninteresting, but that's sure the way I ended up when those hormones kicked in and sexuality arrived.
All I know is that throughout recorded history a certain percentage of the population has been gay, in a nearly infinite variety of social environments. Some societies have dealt with that simple fact better than others ... ours isn't so great at it as some, but better than plenty.
Originally posted by Blurr Upallnight, to you I would say that "why" you are gay is because that's the way your brain works. Obviously gay isn't a natural state for the human body, because the natural state is to reproduce.
I used to consider that a compelling evolutionary argument, but not so much any more. In hominid societies where multiple juvenile males are produced but competition for access to females is fiercely competitive and dominated by alphas that will kill you for trying to mate with females, being attracted to males could actually be a survival trait. You see homosexual activity between other primates like bonobos that is strictly a social, non-breeding activity.
Now, how that ends up being enough of a selective advantage for the individual, rather than the society, and get passed on despite the vastly lower odds of breeding, ya got me ... but I think it's a field we understand in a very limited way today with a lot of good research still to be done.
Erm, I don't think gay people are gay because they think a straight guy will kill them for having sex with a woman. I really don't see how being gay in our society would be a survival trait either really. If anything, most gays will probably say their life would be easier if they were straight.
I'm not trying to argue evolution here either because homosexuals and evolution just don't mix. By that I mean, if you become homosexual, you more or less take yourself out of evolution's path.
While the whole monkey competition thing may be true, you have to remember that as humans we are vastly different from any other creature on this planet in so many ways. Our social order is like no other creature.
I explain it more in detail in the rest of the post you quoted from, might help explain the point a little better.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by KzinKiller First, I dont' think there's any way to conclusively say it's 'more possible' to produce well adjusted children when you're straight ... what, straight couples don't produce screwed-up kids? By the millions? Yarite.
Second, you can endeavour all you want about role modeling, but you should be prepared to deal with your kids' making sexuality choices you don't agree with ... it happened to Dick Cheney, it could happen to you. I have no conclusion on whether it's 'genetic' or 'environmental', but then that has nothing to do with 'choice', you don't choose your childhood environment any more than you choose your genes. I never made a choice to find many varities of women attractive and all men completely uninteresting, but that's sure the way I ended up when those hormones kicked in and sexuality arrived. All I know is that throughout recorded history a certain percentage of the population has been gay, in a nearly infinite variety of social environments. Some societies have dealt with that simple fact better than others ... ours isn't so great at it as some, but better than plenty.
I have no doubt that my children will make countless choices in their life that I do not agree with. I imagine many of them I will learn from. This does not however remove any of my reponsabilities as a parent to guide them towards the decisions I think best. Failure is an option, but not a goal. Defeat on anything so important as the raising of my children is not something I shall be finding acceptable anytime soon.
I've never empathised with Dick Cheney. I fail to relate to him.
Not being part of a gay couple I have no comment on the parenting skills of another. I really don't see it as any of my business and I have no personal experience to draw upon.
I choose my child's enviroment. Not absolutely and completely but more than any other. Again it is my responability to provide that enviroment. I also chose my childs genes rather carefully. Mrs Baff isn't the first woman I met. Again not 100% but to the best of my ability.
People may not actively "choose" to be certain kind of person and have a certain kind of tastes or beliefs, but they can be programmed. Educated and exposed to the kind of influences you wish them to learn from.
UpAllNight sounds well shot of his family (no offense). Sounds like he has found a better deal elsewhere. His parents aren't my role models any more than Dick Cheney is. My parents are my role models. I want it to be the same for my children.
Likewise percentages of our populations have been poor or undereducated or overweight or criminal. There are things that I do want for my children and things that I do not. To the best of my ability I shall make serious endeavours for my children to be none of these things. I don't offer any guarentee for the results, only the efforts.
I think homosexuality is a survival trait. I think everyone here will agree that we live in an overcrowded world, so why you guys would be promoting reproduction is beyond me. Second, homosexuals instead of bringing in more children instead actually take in the children from orphanages that the irresponsible heterosexuals abandoned. So really they are helping those children survive in healthier environment...yes healthier. So they are picking up the slack.
Don't give me argument that those children are going to be harrassed by peers because that just gives homosexual parenting a +1 and heterosexual parenting -1. Clearly those heterosexual parents are setting their children up to fail in a world that is very diverse. This goes for adult bigots who beat up/discriminate homosexuals, clearly they grew up in a heterosexual environment, obviously it was unhealthy, and obviously those individuals are not cut out for life in this world.
If anything I wouldn't be afraid of homosexuals (Some people here are afraid of them), instead I would be afraid of the bigots. The bigots are the ones who are degrading the morals of society. Homosexuality promotes love, and bigotry promotes hatred.
Edit: Darwin talked about how creatures reproduce to keep their species alive but did he ever talk about what happens when conditions get overcrowded? What would be the best case scenario for the species health and wellbeing? A. Reproducing more. B. Not reproducing.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by knightknife Ok, normally i would post the entire "put all the gays on the island thingy" , but this time, i say we just let them move to France. I would normally say california, but i want them out of the USA, so France will work. So all u faggots out there, move to france.
As bad as you are flaming this topic, I am beginning to wonder about your sexuality.
Do you feel a tingle in your undies when you look at hot men? I bet you do. But by calling people faggots you think it makes you seem really straight.
But it really doesn't make you look like that to others. You just seem more like a scared little closeted kid.
Originally posted by Blurr Upallnight, to you I would say that "why" you are gay is because that's the way your brain works. Obviously gay isn't a natural state for the human body, because the natural state is to reproduce. A gay man is attracted to men because the wires that say "be attracted to women" were switched. It's a psychological condition. That's not to say it's bad or good. What it means is that your brain tells you to be attracted to the same sex. It's just the same as someone who likes to eat glue, or someone who likes smelling feet, or someone who likes starting fires. Some people are born with these wires switched (and actually, some people are born with the wires set up for a girls body, but get the parts for a boys body, which explains gender identity disorder like one of the other posters said about his friend who claimed he always felt like he was a girl), and some people have these wires switched during their life for whatever reason. I think some people can have their brain put back to 'normal' but that's not to say homosexuality is something that necessarily needs to be 'cured'. Think of it like the Mutants in Xmen. Some of the mutants like being mutants, and like the lifestyle. Some of the other mutants hate what they've turned into. Perhaps being a mutant can be cured, but why cure it if you're happy with it? That being said, alot of regular humans fear mutants because it represents something different from the natural order, and people don't like it when their way of life is potentially threatened with change.
Trust me on this. I have contemplated this more than you can imagine. After all, I am the one going through this.
I had nothing to do with this. God made me this way. I have tried everything possible to be straight. Some things over and over thinking they will change me. I have dated girls and tried to trick myself into thinking I like them. I never felt any romantic notions towards them at all. But somehow, I have always felt that notion towards guys, no matter how much I tried to deny it.
This is something that you know is different about you even when you are little. I remember one time when I was at a friends house spending the night. It was like 2nd or 3rd grade. His dad had some Hustlers that he showed me. I remember him looking at the girls in the pictures. But not me. I kept wanting him to go back to the pictures that had men in them. I knew that I was supposed to like girls even back then, I also knew to hide the fact that I was more interested in the men in the pictures, but I do remember not even caring about what the women looked like.
So, I'm not sexually or emotionally attracted to women. I never have been. And after all that dating of girls all that happened was that some of them began to like me, wanted to go further, and I wasn't able to give what they wanted. So they were left broken hearted and I was left feeling guilty for hurting them.
I have lost a lot because of who I am. When I told my parents they told me I was a sinner and said they won't talk to me or want me around them or the rest of my family (brothers, sisters, nephews, neices) until I decide to change who I am. There's no changing. If there were then I would do it in a heartbeat. I want to see them so bad I think about it all the time. For that alone I would give anything to have them back. But it's just impossible.
I went through a lot of depression, anger, and self loathing over all this. And finally one day I just got sick of it. I didn't do this to myself. God put me here this way and I'm sure it was for a reason. I am fully capable of loving another man and having a great relationship. And that's where I'm at right now.
I also don't fit into the stereotypical gay image that people have. I think that maybe God made me like this so I can bust those stereotypes. I can't stand doing "gay" things. I like hunting, fishing, rebuilding cars, drinking beer, watching/playing sports, and doing all the normal guy things. The only thing I do gay is go after guys. Outside of that I'm "straight".
But whatever, if people don't understand me then that's okay. I don't understand them either. Because I'm actually a cool dude to hang out with. I have 99% straight friends and they all tell me that. People will come around someday. Something will be found to explain it all. I just hope I live long enough to see it. I'm tired of all the bickering and hatred. It's distracting us from all being together as friends and family.
Upallnight, I think you took my post the wrong way in a teeny bit.
When I said "that's the way your brain works" I meant that is the way your brain formed/developed. I know you did not choose to be gay, most gay people don't (from what I understand). You don't pick your brain chemistry, your brain does that all on it's own, and it forms who you are. Your brain has decided to send you 'attraction' signals when it recognizes what it believes is 'attractive' in a man, your brain is the one that caused this, not your personality.
I absolutely agree with you 100% that God made you that way. And also that God would never make you have to be a sinner. Some people can change themselves from being gay, but some people can't. Either way God knew what you would be, and He won't punish you for something that you have no control over. He won't punish you for being what He made you. That being said, I do have to say that I believe the act of homosexual sex is an act of sin. However, that is something that you must come to terms with in your own faith. I am glad to hear you saying things like how God put you here this way for a reason. The whole 'sin' thing is something you have to work out between you and Him. I think that's one of the central parts of any true relationship with God, is finding your place in that relationship and how it connects with who you are.
I also am glad to hear you're not one of the 'over the top' Andy Dick type stereo-types. The super gay 'Queer-eye' types that play into the stereotype are what normal people don't like, they are what hetero people feel is a threat to our way of life. We don't care about the neighbour who likes to drink beer and fix cars, or the nice old asian man like Mr. Sulu. Those are gay people that we can live with. It's the leather-chaps wearing decorator with pink flamingos all over throwing drag-queen pool parties wearing makeup and singing show-tunes types that we don't want. We want to be able to lead a normal life and gays like you are perfectly fine in that normal life. I'd even go so far as to say you're pretty much normal. I mean, everyone's got some weird personality quirks about them. I love pretty much anything to do with robots, you happen to like checking out other guys' asses. I have no real problem with that as long as you're still normal otherwise.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Upallnight, I think you took my post the wrong way in a teeny bit. When I said "that's the way your brain works" I meant that is the way your brain formed/developed. I know you did not choose to be gay, most gay people don't (from what I understand). You don't pick your brain chemistry, your brain does that all on it's own, and it forms who you are. Your brain has decided to send you 'attraction' signals when it recognizes what it believes is 'attractive' in a man, your brain is the one that caused this, not your personality. I absolutely agree with you 100% that God made you that way. And also that God would never make you have to be a sinner. Some people can change themselves from being gay, but some people can't. Either way God knew what you would be, and He won't punish you for something that you have no control over. He won't punish you for being what He made you. That being said, I do have to say that I believe the act of homosexual sex is an act of sin. However, that is something that you must come to terms with in your own faith. I am glad to hear you saying things like how God put you here this way for a reason. The whole 'sin' thing is something you have to work out between you and Him. I think that's one of the central parts of any true relationship with God, is finding your place in that relationship and how it connects with who you are. I also am glad to hear you're not one of the 'over the top' Andy Dick type stereo-types. The super gay 'Queer-eye' types that play into the stereotype are what normal people don't like, they are what hetero people feel is a threat to our way of life. We don't care about the neighbour who likes to drink beer and fix cars, or the nice old asian man like Mr. Sulu. Those are gay people that we can live with. It's the leather-chaps wearing decorator with pink flamingos all over throwing drag-queen pool parties wearing makeup and singing show-tunes types that we don't want. We want to be able to lead a normal life and gays like you are perfectly fine in that normal life. I'd even go so far as to say you're pretty much normal. I mean, everyone's got some weird personality quirks about them. I love pretty much anything to do with robots, you happen to like checking out other guys' asses. I have no real problem with that as long as you're still normal otherwise.
Oh. I'm sorry. I did. I was reading all the posts and I guess they got all jumbled up in my head. Then I just went up and grabbed one of the comments. I didn't mean it to you specifically anyway. Just a general response.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I was getting on to you.
Thanks for trying to understand me. I appreciate that.
You know what gets me though is people that don't believe me. I don't mean you. I'm talking about the other posters. I mean, do they honestly think that I don't know wtf I'm talking about. I'm living in the middle of this and they are in their normal accepted lives looking at me like they completely know me better than me. It confuses me to where they would get such ideas. But I guess when you're in the majority you don't really have to justify yourself too much. A lot of people have your back just for being like them.
Originally posted by reavo Originally posted by xpowderx The Constitution of the United States of America We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The question would be: Does gay marriage promote the general welfare of this country. Does it insure domestic tranquility? I guess the answer would be from different point of views. One could argue scientifically that gay marriage does neither to the US constitution. Example: If you have 10 hetero couples and 10 gay couples and two islands(controlled enviroment) and placed each set of couples on one of the two isles seperately and told both to be posterous,promote the general welfare and provide domestic tranquility for multiple generations(To keep the country growing) . Which would most likely succeed?
First off, we don't live on an island with homogenous populations. We live in a world with all kinds of different people. But let's just take your experiment a little further. What if you took a group of biologically sterile people and put them on one island and group of fertile humans on another. Extend that out as your case study.
Biological sterility is a birth defect, are you saying that being gay is a defect. Not a lifestyle? If it is such then it should be approached as such rather than"sold" as a lifestyle alternative! There should be treatment and other options available. There are many defects that lead to societal demise. You think drug addiction, alcoholism isnt inherent? There is a reason for such activities having a "illegal" point. It becomes illegal after it affects a society to a point to where that society can no longer function.
Another question, since you re comparing homosexuality to a inherent birth defect then why promote such a activity? I do not see other people with genetic defects promoting such, other than awareness that it exists and in some cases precautions should be taken when dealing with someone with a defect of this type!
The point is God made all different kinds of people for a lot of different reasons. Why don't you enjoy the contributions that gay people can make to society instead of trying to act like they're not worthy of your societal acceptance.
As to god making all different types of people that is only a perspective to some. Yes, I never said that people with( as you pointed out a genetic defect) can contribute to a society in limited ways. But most often people with genetic defects have special needs that sometimes cause a society to use more resources making accomodations to such than the actual output of the person with a special need!
So why don't you jump on the biologically sterile people the same way you jump on gays? God made them sterile. Aren't they an abomination for that reason? Why would God put sterile people on the Earth? Hmmmmm... ????
Because biologically sterile people dont go out and say"In your face" propaganda to promote a illness/defect(Thats what March of dimes and Jerry Lewis is for!). Once again as to God, thats IMO or IYO. When speaking from a scientific view God doesnt take a role!
A question for you, why do you want to mix a religious ideology with a scientific approach? Do you believe by doing so it gives your case better creedence to make a point?
As to the March of dimes/Jerry lewis comment. They promote for a cure not acceptance! If gays said we need money to help with treatment, a cure or research I would happily oblige. but they dont! Instead they promote the dysfunctional lifestyle caused by being homosexual! And that we should as the norm of society"JUST DEAL WITH IT"! and let that form of illness exist with no cure nor treatment!
Originally posted by porgie Originally posted by knightknife Ok, normally i would post the entire "put all the gays on the island thingy" , but this time, i say we just let them move to France. I would normally say california, but i want them out of the USA, so France will work. So all u faggots out there, move to france.
As bad as you are flaming this topic, I am beginning to wonder about your sexuality.
Do you feel a tingle in your undies when you look at hot men? I bet you do. But by calling people faggots you think it makes you seem really straight.
But it really doesn't make you look like that to others. You just seem more like a scared little closeted kid.
i just call them how i feel like callin them....if sumone called me a faggot, than i would get just as mad at them if they called me a homo. Its no different to me
Originally posted by xpowderx Instead they promote the dysfunctional lifestyle caused by being homosexual! "Dysfunctional lifestyle" is an opinion, not fact. It also doesn't help your case because almost everyone is dysfunctional, Mr. Perfect. It also doesn't matter if they promote it, we have something called free speech. Stop crying like a little baby, you keep yelling with your "!". And that we should as the norm of society"JUST DEAL WITH IT"! Actually you should. Homosexuals have a right to do whatever they want in their house and bed. Now if you're being a peeping tom and looked into their bed, saw man on man, got disgusted, and now pissed then I suggest you are the dysfunstional one. and let that form of illness exist with no cure nor treatment! You're opinion that it's an illness. Though I realize that you were playing semantics with Reavo.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by xpowderx Instead they promote the dysfunctional lifestyle caused by being homosexual! "Dysfunctional lifestyle" is an opinion, not fact. It also doesn't help your case because almost everyone is dysfunctional, Mr. Perfect. It also doesn't matter if they promote it, we have something called free speech. Stop crying like a little baby, you keep yelling with your "!". actually if you look at most psychiatric studies it does concur that homosexuality is a dysfunctional disorder. Science also concurs that homosexuality is genetic. It is also noticed that along with homosexuality that there are other Dysfunctional disorders with it. If you need references I would be happy to provide from accredited and prestigious sources! Just Google Mental health Homosexuality and havea nice day! And that we should as the norm of society"JUST DEAL WITH IT"! Actually you should. Homosexuals have a right to do whatever they want in their house and bed. Now if you're being a peeping tom and looked into their bed, saw man on man, got disgusted, and now pissed then I suggest you are the dysfunstional one. Then the question is, if it is so private, why does the gay community make it the forefront to any public debate? Whos really invading the act of privacy? What makes you think any of us want to know what you do in bed? Or what your sexual orientation is?We"the majority" dont have to put up with it. Thats why many of us are going to fully support making homosexuality a disorder/disease. many scientists already believe it is. and let that form of illness exist with no cure nor treatment! You're opinion that it's an illness. Though I realize that you were playing semantics with Reavo. Please review the answer to your first opinion for the answer to this.
Originally posted by xpowderx Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by xpowderx Instead they promote the dysfunctional lifestyle caused by being homosexual! "Dysfunctional lifestyle" is an opinion, not fact. It also doesn't help your case because almost everyone is dysfunctional, Mr. Perfect. It also doesn't matter if they promote it, we have something called free speech. Stop crying like a little baby, you keep yelling with your "!". actually if you look at most psychiatric studies it does concur that homosexuality is a dysfunctional disorder. You said lifestyle at first, buddy. There's a difference. Dysfunctional lifestyle is like if your father beats you up if you don't get straight A's or your mother is in a constant depression....ect. Science also concurs that homosexuality is genetic. It is also noticed that along with homosexuality that there are other Dysfunctional disorders with it. If you need references I would be happy to provide from accredited and prestigious sources! Just Google Mental health Homosexuality and havea nice day! Maybe you should learn the difference between "lifestyle" and "disorder"! That way people can respond appropriately to you! Have a nice day! And that we should as the norm of society"JUST DEAL WITH IT"! Actually you should. Homosexuals have a right to do whatever they want in their house and bed. Now if you're being a peeping tom and looked into their bed, saw man on man, got disgusted, and now pissed then I suggest you are the dysfunstional one. Then the question is, if it is so private, why does the gay community make it the forefront to any public debate? Ohhhh I dunno maybe the time some police busted through a front door and caught two men having sex and they were arrested for it in Texas. - Lawrence vs. Texas
Also Bush wanting to outlaw homosexual marriages. Obviously I feel that government shouldn't be involved in marriage but why does Bush even have to bring it up? Bush is the one that is bringing it to the forefront, along with others of course.
See? It really isn't the homosexuals who are starting the fight, it's the discriminating heterosexuals. Obviously you don't see the discrimination, but maybe that's because you are straight. Whos really invading the act of privacy? What makes you think any of us want to know what you do in bed? Or what your sexual orientation is?We"the majority" dont have to put up with it. Thats why many of us are going to fully support making homosexuality a disorder/disease. many scientists already believe it is. and let that form of illness exist with no cure nor treatment! You're opinion that it's an illness. Though I realize that you were playing semantics with Reavo. Please review the answer to your first opinion for the answer to this. Please review the words you use so people understand what your saying.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
why not bang what we're intended to bang . . women, opposites attract. we are meant to have our way with them. hah, i dont mean that, well i do. girls just wanna bang guys, guys just wanna bang girls, who doesnt wanna be deep inside a broad. if ur gay ur not a man, ur a he broad. man i mean i got no problem if someones gay tho, just dont put it onto me, or i will toss u around a bit i mean talking to gay guys is fine, but one time i had a guy start hitting on me, i told him im not gay, and he grabbed my ass. and said "damn ur fine: and i strolled em, put em in the hospital. i kicked in his teeth, didnt do no permanent damage tho. i would feel to bad.
Comments
Are you referring that to me?
I told you, I never chose to be this way. I don't know how it happened. I just know it did. And I have tried to the point where I put myself in a deep depression to change. I have had girlfriend after girlfriend. But, no love there, no sexual attraction.
I have been disowned by my family for who I am. I have been beat up to the point that I almost died. And I have put myself through torture by putting myself down.
But it was all pointless. God made me this way. And I accept myself now.
I've also found a good group of friends and a church that accepts me for who I am. I've got my community, my partner, and my faith. I still wish I could visit my family, but I'm the happiest I've been in my whole life.
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Me too.
Upallnight, to you I would say that "why" you are gay is because that's the way your brain works.
Obviously gay isn't a natural state for the human body, because the natural state is to reproduce.
A gay man is attracted to men because the wires that say "be attracted to women" were switched. It's a psychological condition. That's not to say it's bad or good. What it means is that your brain tells you to be attracted to the same sex. It's just the same as someone who likes to eat glue, or someone who likes smelling feet, or someone who likes starting fires.
Some people are born with these wires switched (and actually, some people are born with the wires set up for a girls body, but get the parts for a boys body, which explains gender identity disorder like one of the other posters said about his friend who claimed he always felt like he was a girl), and some people have these wires switched during their life for whatever reason. I think some people can have their brain put back to 'normal' but that's not to say homosexuality is something that necessarily needs to be 'cured'.
Think of it like the Mutants in Xmen. Some of the mutants like being mutants, and like the lifestyle. Some of the other mutants hate what they've turned into. Perhaps being a mutant can be cured, but why cure it if you're happy with it? That being said, alot of regular humans fear mutants because it represents something different from the natural order, and people don't like it when their way of life is potentially threatened with change.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Second, you can endeavour all you want about role modeling, but you should be prepared to deal with your kids' making sexuality choices you don't agree with ... it happened to Dick Cheney, it could happen to you.
I have no conclusion on whether it's 'genetic' or 'environmental', but then that has nothing to do with 'choice', you don't choose your childhood environment any more than you choose your genes. I never made a choice to find many varities of women attractive and all men completely uninteresting, but that's sure the way I ended up when those hormones kicked in and sexuality arrived.
All I know is that throughout recorded history a certain percentage of the population has been gay, in a nearly infinite variety of social environments. Some societies have dealt with that simple fact better than others ... ours isn't so great at it as some, but better than plenty.
Now, how that ends up being enough of a selective advantage for the individual, rather than the society, and get passed on despite the vastly lower odds of breeding, ya got me ... but I think it's a field we understand in a very limited way today with a lot of good research still to be done.
Erm, I don't think gay people are gay because they think a straight guy will kill them for having sex with a woman. I really don't see how being gay in our society would be a survival trait either really. If anything, most gays will probably say their life would be easier if they were straight.
I'm not trying to argue evolution here either because homosexuals and evolution just don't mix. By that I mean, if you become homosexual, you more or less take yourself out of evolution's path.
While the whole monkey competition thing may be true, you have to remember that as humans we are vastly different from any other creature on this planet in so many ways. Our social order is like no other creature.
I explain it more in detail in the rest of the post you quoted from, might help explain the point a little better.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I have no doubt that my children will make countless choices in their life that I do not agree with. I imagine many of them I will learn from. This does not however remove any of my reponsabilities as a parent to guide them towards the decisions I think best. Failure is an option, but not a goal. Defeat on anything so important as the raising of my children is not something I shall be finding acceptable anytime soon.
I've never empathised with Dick Cheney. I fail to relate to him.
Not being part of a gay couple I have no comment on the parenting skills of another. I really don't see it as any of my business and I have no personal experience to draw upon.
I choose my child's enviroment. Not absolutely and completely but more than any other. Again it is my responability to provide that enviroment. I also chose my childs genes rather carefully. Mrs Baff isn't the first woman I met. Again not 100% but to the best of my ability.
People may not actively "choose" to be certain kind of person and have a certain kind of tastes or beliefs, but they can be programmed. Educated and exposed to the kind of influences you wish them to learn from.
UpAllNight sounds well shot of his family (no offense). Sounds like he has found a better deal elsewhere. His parents aren't my role models any more than Dick Cheney is. My parents are my role models. I want it to be the same for my children.
Likewise percentages of our populations have been poor or undereducated or overweight or criminal. There are things that I do want for my children and things that I do not. To the best of my ability I shall make serious endeavours for my children to be none of these things. I don't offer any guarentee for the results, only the efforts.
Don't give me argument that those children are going to be harrassed by peers because that just gives homosexual parenting a +1 and heterosexual parenting -1. Clearly those heterosexual parents are setting their children up to fail in a world that is very diverse. This goes for adult bigots who beat up/discriminate homosexuals, clearly they grew up in a heterosexual environment, obviously it was unhealthy, and obviously those individuals are not cut out for life in this world.
If anything I wouldn't be afraid of homosexuals (Some people here are afraid of them
Edit: Darwin talked about how creatures reproduce to keep their species alive but did he ever talk about what happens when conditions get overcrowded? What would be the best case scenario for the species health and wellbeing?
A. Reproducing more.
B. Not reproducing.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
As bad as you are flaming this topic, I am beginning to wonder about your sexuality.
Do you feel a tingle in your undies when you look at hot men? I bet you do. But by calling people faggots you think it makes you seem really straight.
But it really doesn't make you look like that to others. You just seem more like a scared little closeted kid.
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</OBAMA>
Trust me on this. I have contemplated this more than you can imagine. After all, I am the one going through this.
I had nothing to do with this. God made me this way. I have tried everything possible to be straight. Some things over and over thinking they will change me. I have dated girls and tried to trick myself into thinking I like them. I never felt any romantic notions towards them at all. But somehow, I have always felt that notion towards guys, no matter how much I tried to deny it.
This is something that you know is different about you even when you are little. I remember one time when I was at a friends house spending the night. It was like 2nd or 3rd grade. His dad had some Hustlers that he showed me. I remember him looking at the girls in the pictures. But not me. I kept wanting him to go back to the pictures that had men in them. I knew that I was supposed to like girls even back then, I also knew to hide the fact that I was more interested in the men in the pictures, but I do remember not even caring about what the women looked like.
So, I'm not sexually or emotionally attracted to women. I never have been. And after all that dating of girls all that happened was that some of them began to like me, wanted to go further, and I wasn't able to give what they wanted. So they were left broken hearted and I was left feeling guilty for hurting them.
I have lost a lot because of who I am. When I told my parents they told me I was a sinner and said they won't talk to me or want me around them or the rest of my family (brothers, sisters, nephews, neices) until I decide to change who I am. There's no changing. If there were then I would do it in a heartbeat. I want to see them so bad I think about it all the time. For that alone I would give anything to have them back. But it's just impossible.
I went through a lot of depression, anger, and self loathing over all this. And finally one day I just got sick of it. I didn't do this to myself. God put me here this way and I'm sure it was for a reason. I am fully capable of loving another man and having a great relationship. And that's where I'm at right now.
I also don't fit into the stereotypical gay image that people have. I think that maybe God made me like this so I can bust those stereotypes. I can't stand doing "gay" things. I like hunting, fishing, rebuilding cars, drinking beer, watching/playing sports, and doing all the normal guy things. The only thing I do gay is go after guys. Outside of that I'm "straight".
But whatever, if people don't understand me then that's okay. I don't understand them either. Because I'm actually a cool dude to hang out with. I have 99% straight friends and they all tell me that. People will come around someday. Something will be found to explain it all. I just hope I live long enough to see it. I'm tired of all the bickering and hatred. It's distracting us from all being together as friends and family.
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Upallnight, I think you took my post the wrong way in a teeny bit.
When I said "that's the way your brain works" I meant that is the way your brain formed/developed. I know you did not choose to be gay, most gay people don't (from what I understand). You don't pick your brain chemistry, your brain does that all on it's own, and it forms who you are. Your brain has decided to send you 'attraction' signals when it recognizes what it believes is 'attractive' in a man, your brain is the one that caused this, not your personality.
I absolutely agree with you 100% that God made you that way. And also that God would never make you have to be a sinner. Some people can change themselves from being gay, but some people can't. Either way God knew what you would be, and He won't punish you for something that you have no control over. He won't punish you for being what He made you. That being said, I do have to say that I believe the act of homosexual sex is an act of sin. However, that is something that you must come to terms with in your own faith. I am glad to hear you saying things like how God put you here this way for a reason. The whole 'sin' thing is something you have to work out between you and Him. I think that's one of the central parts of any true relationship with God, is finding your place in that relationship and how it connects with who you are.
I also am glad to hear you're not one of the 'over the top' Andy Dick type stereo-types. The super gay 'Queer-eye' types that play into the stereotype are what normal people don't like, they are what hetero people feel is a threat to our way of life. We don't care about the neighbour who likes to drink beer and fix cars, or the nice old asian man like Mr. Sulu. Those are gay people that we can live with. It's the leather-chaps wearing decorator with pink flamingos all over throwing drag-queen pool parties wearing makeup and singing show-tunes types that we don't want. We want to be able to lead a normal life and gays like you are perfectly fine in that normal life. I'd even go so far as to say you're pretty much normal. I mean, everyone's got some weird personality quirks about them. I love pretty much anything to do with robots, you happen to like checking out other guys' asses. I have no real problem with that as long as you're still normal otherwise.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Oh. I'm sorry. I did. I was reading all the posts and I guess they got all jumbled up in my head. Then I just went up and grabbed one of the comments. I didn't mean it to you specifically anyway. Just a general response.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I was getting on to you.
Thanks for trying to understand me. I appreciate that.
You know what gets me though is people that don't believe me. I don't mean you. I'm talking about the other posters. I mean, do they honestly think that I don't know wtf I'm talking about. I'm living in the middle of this and they are in their normal accepted lives looking at me like they completely know me better than me. It confuses me to where they would get such ideas. But I guess when you're in the majority you don't really have to justify yourself too much. A lot of people have your back just for being like them.
Anyways, sorry again.
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First off, we don't live on an island with homogenous populations. We live in a world with all kinds of different people. But let's just take your experiment a little further. What if you took a group of biologically sterile people and put them on one island and group of fertile humans on another. Extend that out as your case study.
Biological sterility is a birth defect, are you saying that being gay is a defect. Not a lifestyle? If it is such then it should be approached as such rather than"sold" as a lifestyle alternative! There should be treatment and other options available. There are many defects that lead to societal demise. You think drug addiction, alcoholism isnt inherent? There is a reason for such activities having a "illegal" point. It becomes illegal after it affects a society to a point to where that society can no longer function.
Another question, since you re comparing homosexuality to a inherent birth defect then why promote such a activity? I do not see other people with genetic defects promoting such, other than awareness that it exists and in some cases precautions should be taken when dealing with someone with a defect of this type!
As to god making all different types of people that is only a perspective to some. Yes, I never said that people with( as you pointed out a genetic defect) can contribute to a society in limited ways. But most often people with genetic defects have special needs that sometimes cause a society to use more resources making accomodations to such than the actual output of the person with a special need!
So why don't you jump on the biologically sterile people the same way you jump on gays? God made them sterile. Aren't they an abomination for that reason? Why would God put sterile people on the Earth? Hmmmmm... ????
Because biologically sterile people dont go out and say"In your face" propaganda to promote a illness/defect(Thats what March of dimes and Jerry Lewis is for!). Once again as to God, thats IMO or IYO. When speaking from a scientific view God doesnt take a role!
A question for you, why do you want to mix a religious ideology with a scientific approach? Do you believe by doing so it gives your case better creedence to make a point?
As to the March of dimes/Jerry lewis comment. They promote for a cure not acceptance! If gays said we need money to help with treatment, a cure or research I would happily oblige. but they dont! Instead they promote the dysfunctional lifestyle caused by being homosexual! And that we should as the norm of society"JUST DEAL WITH IT"! and let that form of illness exist with no cure nor treatment!
As bad as you are flaming this topic, I am beginning to wonder about your sexuality.
Do you feel a tingle in your undies when you look at hot men? I bet you do. But by calling people faggots you think it makes you seem really straight.
But it really doesn't make you look like that to others. You just seem more like a scared little closeted kid.
i just call them how i feel like callin them....if sumone called me a faggot, than i would get just as mad at them if they called me a homo. Its no different to me
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Wow, two guys who just quote eachother and edit the quotes, rather than posting actual posts. This could get interesting.
Oh and Upallnight, no worries I totally see how what I said could have been taken differently.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
why not bang what we're intended to bang . . women, opposites attract. we are meant to have our way with them. hah, i dont mean that, well i do. girls just wanna bang guys, guys just wanna bang girls, who doesnt wanna be deep inside a broad. if ur gay ur not a man, ur a he broad. man i mean i got no problem if someones gay tho, just dont put it onto me, or i will toss u around a bit
i mean talking to gay guys is fine, but one time i had a guy start hitting on me, i told him im not gay, and he grabbed my ass. and said "damn ur fine: and i strolled em, put em in the hospital. i kicked in his teeth, didnt do no permanent damage tho. i would feel to bad.
Which character are you test by Naruto - Kun.com